King of Man: John & Heirs Were NOT Lords or King of Man 1405

[Gjest]

Good Morning Will et al,
My,my,my,.....are not you all a little judgemental respecting the
actual facts of this case or any others going on SECONDARY evidence
alone??!!! READ "Report of the Lords Respecting the Kings Interests"
1607 State Paper Office, Scotland, it was found that the grant of the
title and Isle of Man to John Stanley and family was an illegal grant
by King Henry and that the family and finances accrued as stated for
over two hundred years was now up to his Majesty as to what to do. The
above paraphrased.(by Lord S. Dorsett, Gilbert of Shrewsbury, Earl of
Worcester and H. of Northampton) In 1610 the Isle of Man was RE-
ASSIGNED, not granted to the Stanleys. This was because Lord Henry de
Percy had NOT been attainted when Henry gave Percys' island to the
Stanleys, in fact Percy was NOT attainted but did give up his lands
and managed to save his head!!!!!!!! If I remember correctly and I am
relatively certain you will fiind that I am. Will, I will e-mail you a
copy of this original document so that you can put it on line for
others to read, I myself, am not very good at doing things of this
nature.

That stated; I am not overly familiar with this Howe case, or what he
wants but I do know of others, some ancient(claims made and denied,
not political or life expediant for the times) and some who are
unaware, that ARE decendants and would have a claim, at least in
title, anyway to the "King of Man", hereditary DNA speaking. It is
like James Boteler, Earl of Ormonde, who had legislation passed in
parliment making him the direct lineal descendant of Thomas Beckett ,
Achbishop of Cantebury, so there is now a law that states that he is,
(for real), but that does NOT necessarily MAKE him so!! The best that
I can find is that his many great.... grandfather on the female side,
but he was making this on the male line. Didn't happen, unless he knew
something that I have been unable to find by actual source
documentation. Without further elaboration, I am quite certain that
all of you understand the point I am making!!!!!!!!

Why did this catch my interest? Henry Boteler, son of John Boteler
was made Constable of Peel, Isle of Man in 1379, they were of the
Rawcliffe, Ireland, Warrington Botelers families but of the lands of
Rawcliffe, and the Botelers and Stanleys mixed, WE Botelers are
everwhere.

Best Regards,
Emmett L. Butler

[Gjest]

Good Morning Will et al,
I was reviewing your new page website regarding the Stanleys Lord or
King of Man, there are some things at least in the first few
generations that are missing and do not seem quite right, as I
understand it and is:
1406 King Henry IV grants the Isle of Man and titles to John Stanley
for life

EVEN THO AN ILLEGAL GRANT IT WOULD BE:
1st King John Stanley, Lieut. of Ireland d. 1/6/1414
wife: Isabel, dau. & heir of Sir Thomas Lathom of
Lathom and
Knowleys
son:
2nd King John Stanley, Lieut. of Ireland1432
wife: Isabel, dau. of John Harrington
son:
3rd King Thomas I Stanley, I Baron***
wife: Joan, dau of Sir Robert Goushill
son:
4th King Thomas II Stanley, II Baron, summoned to
Parliment 30 July , 1460. Judge of
Chester
1472, and in Parl. till 9 Dec. 1483

*** Note: Thomas I Stanley was made Baron by Special Writ dated 15th
January,1456 and was never summoned to parliment afterwards, and is
the 2nd of oddities after the 1st, the illegall grant by Henry IV to
John Stanley in 1406.

5th King George Stanley

6th King Thomas III Stanley etc. etc.

Thought this might be of interest also.

Best Regards,
Emmett L. Butler

[Hovite]

On Jan 13, 3:07 pm, [email protected] wrote:

Good Morning Will et al,
I was reviewing your new page website regarding the Stanleys Lord or
King of Man, there are some things at least in the first few
generations that are missing and do not seem quite right, as I
understand it and is:
1406 King Henry IV grants the Isle of Man and titles to John Stanley
for life

EVEN THO AN ILLEGAL GRANT IT WOULD BE:
1st King John Stanley, Lieut. of Ireland d. 1/6/1414
wife: Isabel, dau. & heir of Sir Thomas Lathom of
Lathom and
Knowleys
son:
2nd King John Stanley, Lieut. of Ireland1432
wife: Isabel, dau. of John Harrington
son:
3rd King Thomas I Stanley, I Baron***
wife: Joan, dau of Sir Robert Goushill
son:
4th King Thomas II Stanley, II Baron, summoned to
Parliment 30 July , 1460. Judge of
Chester
1472, and in Parl. till 9 Dec. 1483

*** Note: Thomas I Stanley was made Baron by Special Writ dated 15th
January,1456 and was never summoned to parliment afterwards, and is
the 2nd of oddities after the 1st, the illegall grant by Henry IV to
John Stanley in 1406.

5th King George Stanley

6th King Thomas III Stanley etc. etc.

Thought this might be of interest also.

Best Regards,
Emmett L. Butler

But were any of them actually granted the title King of Man?

[Gjest]

On Jan 13, 11:31�am, Hovite <[email protected]> wrote:

On Jan 13, 3:07 pm, [email protected] wrote:



Good Afternoon Hovite et al,
Yes they were, in fact that is a capital YES!!! The Kings of Mann

after Ling Haarold and after Alexander III King of Scotland and King
of Man, the various Lords were "Crowned" King of Mann and it was under
Edward I of England in his letters, that while he acknowledged the
King of Mann, the King of Scotland he called himself the "Superior
King".

Regarding the Stanley descent starting with John Stanley I, it was
late in his life and has been surmised that he never actually "ruled"
the Isle of Mann, but John Stanley II as the charter of Henry IV was
so broad it was interpreted as such (he was in fact King) and he did
rule as King as did the family from there on out. In fact it was not
until 1677, hearly 250 years later was this fact brought out when the
Bishop of Mann wrote to the Bishop of York to recieve a rulling and
found that they had no power there. In fact no appeals could be made
to the crown or to the church of York so great was their power. This
is not unusual as the Kings of Mann ruled under the Kings of Norway
who had the Isle of Mann until Alexander III and so on, like in
Ireland, England, Wales and elsewhere previously, you had Kings and
a High King, normal for the times. This is the simple version, it is
actually more complicated between the time of Alexander and the
Stanleys but that is the brief story of it.

All that being said: Based on the centuries of charters, pipe rolls
and legal documents,Most in latin, that I have and they are many)
legal precedence, the documents alluded to in the first post
with"Report of the Lords Respecting the Kings Interest" 1607, James
the I and later in 1735 ,regarding James, Duke of Atholl, "Opinion of
Clarenciex King at Arms(Sir John Vanburg) on the accession of James,
Duke of Atholl to the sovernty(His spelling, not mine) Thereof isv
Feb. 1735" regarding the usage of the arms of the Kings of Mann is
granted,(the arms of the King of Mann up until Haarold, were a ship
with sails and a lion, after it was three legs skewed as I would call
it) a VERY winnable case in court could be made for one showing
closest descent(male or female, as they, female lines,(claimants) over
the centuries to the lands and title King of Mann were allowed by the
various English monarchs by the constituition (re 1607,above). You may
have read that in some time periods the Isle of Mann and its titles
were sold or bought, not true, they were Mortgaged, a major
difference! Would the British Crown who now has the title acknowledge
it anyway, probably not, but then again, it depends on a number of
circumstances and the current laws of the Isle of of Mann, which by
the way is rather like the Republic of Ireland in relation to Great
Britian, a Commonwealth nation sort of, but independant. If you could
prove beyond a shadow of a doubt you were the closest claimant living,
be it original stock of the King of Mann, Scottish descent(ownership)
and or English descent(ownership), one could I suppose be "STYLED"
King of Mann and if you could prove this, it might be possible the
College of Heraldry might? issue a grant of arms.

Oh yes, the other Boteler connection, there always is, remember
Richard de Burgo, possibly the richest and most powerful Lord of his
time, who had wardship of Theobald Boteler and married his daughter
Margery to him? He surrendered the Isle of Mann in 1299 to Edward I.

Hope you enjoyed and this answered a few of your questions.
Best regards,
Emmett L. Butler