Daughter of Alphonse Jourdain

[Roger LeBlanc]

Alphonse Jourdain count of Toulouse (c 1112-1148) is shown to have had a
daughter who was the wife of Bernard III de Comminges (d 1176), and
mother of his son Bernard IV. I am wondering if this daughter was by his
marriage to Faydide d'Uzes, or if not is her mother known?

Roger LeBlanc

[Peter Stewart]

"Roger LeBlanc" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...

Alphonse Jourdain count of Toulouse (c 1112-1148) is shown to have had a
daughter who was the wife of Bernard III de Comminges (d 1176), and mother
of his son Bernard IV. I am wondering if this daughter was by his marriage
to Faydide d'Uzes, or if not is her mother known?

I don't think enough is known about Alphonse Jourdain's family to say for
certain which of his known offspring were illegitimate.

Pere Anselme named the wife of Bernard III of Comminges as Laurence, while
making her a legitimate daughter of Alphonse Jourdain's son Raymond of
Saint-Gilles. This misplacement within the family was most probably due to
the wrong interpretation of a marginal note in a manuscript of the chronicle
of Guillaume de Puylaurens, but where the alleged given name came from is
unknown.

The marginal note was correctly aligned by the authors of _Histoire generale
de Languedoc_, making her the daughter of Alphonse Jourdain and consequently
making sense of other sources describing Bernard IV of Comminges as nephew
(by a sister) of Raymond of Saint-Gilles, count of Toulouse, but the lady's
name and legitimacy or otherwise have not been settled definitively as far
as I know.

She was evidently married to Bernard III ca 1150, making her roughly the
same age as Raymond of Saint-Gilles who was most likely born in 1134.
Bernard III was not count of Comminges at the time - he was named Dodo,
seigneur of Samatan under the lordship of Alphonse Jourdain. But he was the
heir to his brother Bernard II of Comminges, who died childless a few years
later, and as such the marriage was important in the rivalry between
Toulouse and Barcelona. There is reason to suppose that Alphonse Jourdain
would have given Dodo/Bernard III a legitimate bride, if one was available.

Peter Stewart

[Roger LeBlanc]

Thanks for the reply Peter. While Leo van de Pas' database shows her as
illegitimate (source ES?) the Roglo database shows her as legitimate (of
Alphonse and Faydide) and names her Laurence. As you indicate, a
legitimate bride for Bernard III seems the logical assessment.
I had also been wondering if the date of Alphonse's marriage to Faydide
might be a contributing factor in the uncertainty concerning this daughter.

Roger LeBlanc

Peter Stewart wrote:

I don't think enough is known about Alphonse Jourdain's family to say for
certain which of his known offspring were illegitimate.

Pere Anselme named the wife of Bernard III of Comminges as Laurence, while
making her a legitimate daughter of Alphonse Jourdain's son Raymond of
Saint-Gilles. This misplacement within the family was most probably due to
the wrong interpretation of a marginal note in a manuscript of the chronicle
of Guillaume de Puylaurens, but where the alleged given name came from is
unknown.

The marginal note was correctly aligned by the authors of _Histoire generale
de Languedoc_, making her the daughter of Alphonse Jourdain and consequently
making sense of other sources describing Bernard IV of Comminges as nephew
(by a sister) of Raymond of Saint-Gilles, count of Toulouse, but the lady's
name and legitimacy or otherwise have not been settled definitively as far
as I know.

She was evidently married to Bernard III ca 1150, making her roughly the
same age as Raymond of Saint-Gilles who was most likely born in 1134.
Bernard III was not count of Comminges at the time - he was named Dodo,
seigneur of Samatan under the lordship of Alphonse Jourdain. But he was the
heir to his brother Bernard II of Comminges, who died childless a few years
later, and as such the marriage was important in the rivalry between
Toulouse and Barcelona. There is reason to suppose that Alphonse Jourdain
would have given Dodo/Bernard III a legitimate bride, if one was available.

Peter Stewart

[Peter Stewart]

"Roger LeBlanc" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...

Thanks for the reply Peter. While Leo van de Pas' database shows her as
illegitimate (source ES?) the Roglo database shows her as legitimate (of
Alphonse and Faydide) and names her Laurence. As you indicate, a
legitimate bride for Bernard III seems the logical assessment.
I had also been wondering if the date of Alphonse's marriage to Faydide
might be a contributing factor in the uncertainty concerning this
daughter.

I doubt it - Alphonse Jourdain and Faydide were married by 26 September
1125, so there is no problem with a daughter of this couple marrying by ca
1150. One of the sources says that Alphone Jourdain himself gave his
daughter to Bernard III, and if that is true they must have been at least
betrothed before April 1148 (when he was killed) and probably before he left
for Palestine.

Peter Stewart

[Gjest]

As long as we're discussing this family, what's the general consensus
on Robert of Torigny's recording the death of Nur ad-Din ("Loradin rex
Alapriæ") and his succession by his son as-Salih Ismail ("filius eius
natus ex sorore comitis Sancti Ægidii")? He then goes onto claim that
Nur ad-Din acquired the woman as a captive during the wars with
Jerusalem. Raymond V was the count of Toulouse at the time of Nur ad-
Din's death.

[Gjest]

I have 2 contemporary sources stating Bernard III de Comminges married
indeed a a daughter of Alphonse Jourdain. Certainly nothing indicating
she was illegitimate. from Claude Higounet, Le comté de Comminges de
son origine a son annexion par la couronne (ed. 1984)

"Bernardus comes de Comenge filius sororis comitis tolosani" = Bernand
(IV), count of Comminges, son of the sister of the count of Toulouse

and this one in occitan language

"B. lo comte de commenge lo cal fo filh de la filha n'Anfos" B(ernard) the count of Comminges which was the son of the daughter of
noble Alphonse

(ps : in Occitan "n'" is the mark higher nobility)

Jean Bunot


On 3 jan, 20:17, Roger LeBlanc <[email protected]> wrote:

Alphonse Jourdain count of Toulouse (c 1112-1148) is shown to have had a
daughter who was the wife of Bernard III de Comminges (d 1176), and
mother of his son Bernard IV. I am wondering if this daughter was by his
marriage to Faydide d'Uzes, or if not is her mother known?

Roger LeBlanc

[Peter Stewart]

<[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...

As long as we're discussing this family, what's the general consensus
on Robert of Torigny's recording the death of Nur ad-Din ("Loradin rex
Alapriæ") and his succession by his son as-Salih Ismail ("filius eius
natus ex sorore comitis Sancti Ægidii")? He then goes onto claim that
Nur ad-Din acquired the woman as a captive during the wars with
Jerusalem. Raymond V was the count of Toulouse at the time of Nur ad-
Din's death.

Unless Robert de Torigni invented this himself, it was hearsay that he could
easily have checked and found to be false.

We know that Alphonse-Jourdain had a daughter who was taken captive along
with his (probably illegitimate) son Bertrand shortly after the count
himself was - allegedly - poisoned in April 1148. But the source for this,
writing in northern Europe around the time of the events, did not say any
more about her, and as far as I know we are not told of her subsequently by
any other chronicler.

Presumably she was in the custody of Nur-ad-Din for some time, but even if
she became his concubine she was not his wife and not the mother of his
heir. Robert de Torigni, or his informant, was adding 2 + 2 to come up with
5 squared.

Nur-ad-Din's wife Asimat was famous for her efforts on behalf of her
children, a daughter as well as her son as-Salih Ismail who succeeded his
father in May 1174. William of Tyre wrote admiriingly of her, when she paid
a large sum of money to the king of Jerusalem to secure a truce in order to
consolidate a regency for her son. She was later married by Saladin. It is
inconceivable a wife of Saladin should have belonged to one of the great
crusadig families, as daughter to a count of Toulouse, without anyone giving
details of the connection except for a passing reference in Robert de
Torigni's chronicle.

Peter Stewart