Blount-Ayala

[Rick Eaton]

Woondering if anhy scholar has compiled a co9mprehensive list of knights,
stc. Who accompanied King Richard on his crusades.

My oldest known ancestor if he is indeed related), Robert de Eyton, was said
to have accompanied Richard on the latter's first crusade. Timing, however,
would suggest that the third crusade might be more likely. From public
records, it appears that Robert de Eyton lived after 1120. Local history in
Shropshire has it that Robert's wife promised to dedicate a church (at the
Eaton on the Weald Moors estate) if her husband returned safely from the
crusade. He did. A small church, dedicated to St. Catherine, was built and,
in the 18tyh century, rebuilt.

Robert's wife's name (no sirname known) was said to be Catherine, as well.
But, why, or from what source other than from Shropshire historians, I
cannot tell.

Any assistance in (1) suggesting comprehenive resources for crusaders and
(2) filling in some detain about Robert de Eyton and his facmily, will be
appreciated as always.

Rick Eaton

[Rick Eaton]

[NAMERick [email protected]@sbcglobal.net

The manor held by Robert de Eyton was Eyton (and not Eaton) on the Weald
Moors in Shropshire. Please excuse my error.

Rick

Woondering if anhy scholar has compiled a co9mprehensive list of knights,
stc. Who accompanied King Richard on his crusades.

My oldest known ancestor if he is indeed related), Robert de Eyton, was said
to have accompanied Richard on the latter's first crusade. Timing, however,
would suggest that the third crusade might be more likely. From public
records, it appears that Robert de Eyton lived after 1120. Local history in
Shropshire has it that Robert's wife promised to dedicate a church (at the
Eaton on the Weald Moors estate) if her husband returned safely from the
crusade. He did. A small church, dedicated to St. Catherine, was built and,
in the 18tyh century, rebuilt.

Robert's wife's name (no sirname known) was said to be Catherine, as well.
But, why, or from what source other than from Shropshire historians, I
cannot tell.

Any assistance in (1) suggesting comprehenive resources for crusaders and
(2) filling in some detain about Robert de Eyton and his facmily, will be
appreciated as always.

Rick Eaton

[12-stringer]

"Rick Eaton" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:BDE1E24D.385%[email protected]...

Woondering if anhy scholar has compiled a co9mprehensive list of knights,
stc. Who accompanied King Richard on his crusades.

My oldest known ancestor if he is indeed related), Robert de Eyton, was
said
to have accompanied Richard on the latter's first crusade. Timing,
however,
would suggest that the third crusade might be more likely.

Richard only participated in one crusade, the Third.


---
Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free.
Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).
Version: 6.0.809 / Virus Database: 551 - Release Date: 12/9/04

[Nathaniel Taylor]

In article <BDE1E24D.385%[email protected]>,
[email protected] (Rick Eaton) wrote:

Woondering if anhy scholar has compiled a co9mprehensive list of knights,
stc. Who accompanied King Richard on his crusades.

My oldest known ancestor if he is indeed related), Robert de Eyton, was said
to have accompanied Richard on the latter's first crusade. Timing, however,
would suggest that the third crusade might be more likely. From public
records, it appears that Robert de Eyton lived after 1120. Local history in
Shropshire has it that Robert's wife promised to dedicate a church (at the
Eaton on the Weald Moors estate) if her husband returned safely from the
crusade. He did. A small church, dedicated to St. Catherine, was built and,
in the 18tyh century, rebuilt.

Robert's wife's name (no sirname known) was said to be Catherine, as well.
But, why, or from what source other than from Shropshire historians, I
cannot tell.

Any assistance in (1) suggesting comprehenive resources for crusaders and
(2) filling in some detain about Robert de Eyton and his facmily, will be
appreciated as always.

I have looked into the status of modern Crusader rosters. There is no
recent work that meets any scholarly standard on this, except for the
appendix to Jonathan Riley-Smith's _The First Crusaders, 1095-1131_
(Camrbidge, 1997), which lists *all* Crusaders (from England or
elsewhere) through 1131 attested in primary narrative or documentary
sources.

A couple of works focusing on later English crusades / crusaders (though
without, as far as I know, any attempt at a prosopography) include:

Christopher Tyerman, _England and the Crusades, 1095-1588_ (University
of Chicago Press, 1988).

and

Simon D. Lloyd, _English society and the crusade, 1216-1307_ (Oxford,
1988).

[This last one won't be useful with the Third Crusade.]

There is a gullible, pietistic early Victorian work (with marvellous,
bad illustrations), listing English crusaders:

James Cruikshank Dansey, _The English crusaders: containing an account
of all the English knights who formed part of the expeditions for the
recovery of the Holy Land. Illustrated by three hundred coats of arms
and various embellishments, illuminated in gold and colours_ (London:
Dickinson & Co., 1850).

This last one may include your Eyton subject, though it is essentially
compiled from unattributed legends (found a-plenty in Burke, etc.) or
vanity submissions, as a sort of national answer to the French crusader
craze of the 1840s which led to the decoration of the 'Salles des
Croisades' at Versailles and to works such as Paul Roger, _La noblesse
de France aux Croisades_ (Paris, 1845).

I think we've spoken about this Eyton legend before, and I must say
(though this doesn't prove it) that your account has some of the
hallmarks of genealogical folklore. What is the written source of your
'local history in Shropshire'? I would add that similar stories are
discussed, as a genre, in chapter 2 of Elizabeth Siberry, "The new
crusaders : images of the crusades in the nineteenth and early twentieth
centuries_ (Ashgate, 2000).

Nat Taylor

a genealogist's sketchbook:
http://home.earthlink.net/~nathanieltaylor/leaves/

[Rick Eaton]

Thank you very much. That terribly important fact escaped my attention. Do
you know if there is some sort of compilation of people who attended the
king on that crusade and would it include someone as lowly as a knight?

Rick

"Rick Eaton" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:BDE1E24D.385%[email protected]...
Woondering if anhy scholar has compiled a co9mprehensive list of knights,
stc. Who accompanied King Richard on his crusades.

My oldest known ancestor if he is indeed related), Robert de Eyton, was
said
to have accompanied Richard on the latter's first crusade. Timing,
however,
would suggest that the third crusade might be more likely.

Richard only participated in one crusade, the Third.


---
Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free.
Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).
Version: 6.0.809 / Virus Database: 551 - Release Date: 12/9/04

[Rick Eaton]

Nat,

I have been in the hospital for six weeks (leukemia) and without benefit of
any of my papers. I have only a lousy memory to work from.

The sources are multiple, if not reliable.

1., was a booklet published by the members of the church, the last of which
we were priviliged to be given. The Anglican minister of Wellington also
sits as pastor of the "Eyton chuirch."

2. The 19th centure, 12-volume genealogy and history of Shropshire by the
noted Rev. Robert de Eyton.

3. If I remember correctly, the Victoria County History of Shropshire,
although I could be wrong about that.

None of these rise of the level of academic standards and, you are very
right about family and local lore. It cannot be fully discounted, however.

When I was a boy, my father told me of the exploits (in the Meditteranian)
of a great, great, great uncle "General" William Eqaton, who "fought the
arbary pirates." It was always a good story. Recently, I came to look at
William Eaton more closely to find that everything my father told me about
him, and then some, was true. He wqas a popular hero (in the US) in his
time. He struggled with Congress. He was sold out by Tobias Lear and the
U.S. Navy. He testified against Aaron Burr in the latter's treason trial, he
died uncompensate4d for his war costs, became a Massachusetts legislator,
grumpy old man and an alcoholic, drinking himself to death.

Sir Ridley Scott (UK) was to make a movie, "Tripoli," of Eaton's life and
exploits, including a march from Cairo to Derna with 500 killer mercenaries,
but -- for now any way -- the film has been spiked.

My point is that, at times, all we have to go on are local or family lore
and, in William Eaton's case, the Novel by Kenneth Roberts, a copule of
other histories and the records of the federalist government of the U.S.

So, as for the crusades, I am looking for sources that might confirm that
Robert de Eyton, still a "shadowy" person to family researchers, in fact was
in the company of Richard. Otherwise, all I have if Local history and lore
to go on.

Thanks foir your compendium. Perhaps it will help me when I get out of the
hospital and get on with my genealogical work.

Rick



[NAMERick [email protected]@sbcglobal.net

In article <BDE1E24D.385%[email protected]>,
[email protected] (Rick Eaton) wrote:

Woondering if anhy scholar has compiled a co9mprehensive list of knights,
stc. Who accompanied King Richard on his crusades.

My oldest known ancestor if he is indeed related), Robert de Eyton, was said
to have accompanied Richard on the latter's first crusade. Timing, however,
would suggest that the third crusade might be more likely. From public
records, it appears that Robert de Eyton lived after 1120. Local history in
Shropshire has it that Robert's wife promised to dedicate a church (at the
Eaton on the Weald Moors estate) if her husband returned safely from the
crusade. He did. A small church, dedicated to St. Catherine, was built and,
in the 18tyh century, rebuilt.

Robert's wife's name (no sirname known) was said to be Catherine, as well.
But, why, or from what source other than from Shropshire historians, I
cannot tell.

Any assistance in (1) suggesting comprehenive resources for crusaders and
(2) filling in some detain about Robert de Eyton and his facmily, will be
appreciated as always.

I have looked into the status of modern Crusader rosters. There is no
recent work that meets any scholarly standard on this, except for the
appendix to Jonathan Riley-Smith's _The First Crusaders, 1095-1131_
(Camrbidge, 1997), which lists *all* Crusaders (from England or
elsewhere) through 1131 attested in primary narrative or documentary
sources.

A couple of works focusing on later English crusades / crusaders (though
without, as far as I know, any attempt at a prosopography) include:

Christopher Tyerman, _England and the Crusades, 1095-1588_ (University
of Chicago Press, 1988).

and

Simon D. Lloyd, _English society and the crusade, 1216-1307_ (Oxford,
1988).

[This last one won't be useful with the Third Crusade.]

There is a gullible, pietistic early Victorian work (with marvellous,
bad illustrations), listing English crusaders:

James Cruikshank Dansey, _The English crusaders: containing an account
of all the English knights who formed part of the expeditions for the
recovery of the Holy Land. Illustrated by three hundred coats of arms
and various embellishments, illuminated in gold and colours_ (London:
Dickinson & Co., 1850).

This last one may include your Eyton subject, though it is essentially
compiled from unattributed legends (found a-plenty in Burke, etc.) or
vanity submissions, as a sort of national answer to the French crusader
craze of the 1840s which led to the decoration of the 'Salles des
Croisades' at Versailles and to works such as Paul Roger, _La noblesse
de France aux Croisades_ (Paris, 1845).

I think we've spoken about this Eyton legend before, and I must say
(though this doesn't prove it) that your account has some of the
hallmarks of genealogical folklore. What is the written source of your
'local history in Shropshire'? I would add that similar stories are
discussed, as a genre, in chapter 2 of Elizabeth Siberry, "The new
crusaders : images of the crusades in the nineteenth and early twentieth
centuries_ (Ashgate, 2000).

Nat Taylor

a genealogist's sketchbook:
http://home.earthlink.net/~nathanieltaylor/leaves/

[Nathaniel Taylor]

In article <BDE21193.39C%[email protected]>,
[email protected] (Rick Eaton) wrote:

The sources are multiple, if not reliable.

1. a booklet published by the members of the church

Postdating no. 2?

2. The 19th century, 12-volume genealogy and history of Shropshire by the
noted Rev. Robert de Eyton.

This would be Robert W. Eyton, _Antiquities of Shropshire_, 12 vols.
(London: J. R. Smith, 1854-60). Can you cite the vol. & page nos. for
your tradition? (This is the guy who published an itinerary for Henry
II, and also some work on Domesday--not a hack antiquary, which is a
good sign; though I have never consulted this Shropshire work.)

3. If I remember correctly, the Victoria County History of Shropshire

Again, in a passage perhaps drawing on no. 2?

None of these rise of the level of academic standards and, you are very
right about family and local lore. It cannot be fully discounted, however.

The obvious question is whether these three secondary sources offer
independent testimony (this is something I review with history
undergraduates all the time).

My point is that, at times, all we have to go on are local or family lore

Of course, but that doesn't guarantee it either to be correct, or even a
fruitful avenue for inquiry. The question then becomes, how you treat
such a tradition--how much time you spend pinning it down?

If patient digging in the narrative and secondary sources doesn't turn
up anything, then perhaps you'll have to leave it with notice of the
"unsubstantiated tradition cited by Eyton"..., then carefully quote &
cite (full bibliographic form) the secondary sources, offering an
assessment as to their degree of independence from one another, etc.

Note: is there any compilation of this Eyton lineage published somewhere
(e.g. a Burke's _Landed Gentry_ edition), in which you might also find a
kernel of the same story?

I notice your query is virtually identical to a post you made two years
ago this month, to which I also replied, even citing some of the same
secondary literature, e.g. Dansey. Did you ever seek to track down
Dansey then?

Nat Taylor

a genealogist's sketchbook:
http://home.earthlink.net/~nathanieltaylor/leaves/

[I.E_Johansson]

"Rose" <[email protected]> skrev i meddelandet
news:[email protected]...

Douglas,

I have seen it many times written that she was Margaret Tiptoft albeit
with now proven evidence. Has Margaret Tiptoft now been discounted?
Rose

Is it this Margaret Tiptoft we are discussing?
http://209.190.235.73/genes/db/browse.cfm/ID/7750

"Margaret TIPTOFT was born about 1307. She has Ancestral File number
15C2-G92.
She was married to Thomas DE MONTHERMER before 1329. Children were: Margaret
DE MONTHERMER."
http://www.reimert.org/genealogy/database/d266.htm

and if so is the two Margaret mentioned in following text one and the same?:
Thomas Baron de Monthermer [Parents] was born on 4 Oct 1301. He died in
1340. He married Margaret Tipoft. He had other parents. Thomas was born in
Lord.

Other marriages:

de Tiptoft, Margaret Teyes
Tiptoft, Margaret "
end of quote from:
http://freepages.genealogy.rootsweb.com ... fg1258.htm

Inger E





>

[Gjest]

Inger,

Yes, it appears to be.

Rose

[Don Aitken]

On Mon, 13 Dec 2004 10:52:55 GMT, "I.E_Johansson"
<[email protected]> wrote:

"Rose" <[email protected]> skrev i meddelandet
news:[email protected]...
Douglas,

I have seen it many times written that she was Margaret Tiptoft albeit
with now proven evidence. Has Margaret Tiptoft now been discounted?
Rose

Is it this Margaret Tiptoft we are discussing?
http://209.190.235.73/genes/db/browse.cfm/ID/7750

"Margaret TIPTOFT was born about 1307. She has Ancestral File number
15C2-G92.
She was married to Thomas DE MONTHERMER before 1329. Children were: Margaret
DE MONTHERMER."
http://www.reimert.org/genealogy/database/d266.htm

and if so is the two Margaret mentioned in following text one and the same?:
Thomas Baron de Monthermer [Parents] was born on 4 Oct 1301. He died in
1340. He married Margaret Tipoft. He had other parents. Thomas was born in
Lord.

Other marriages:

de Tiptoft, Margaret Teyes
Tiptoft, Margaret "
end of quote from:
http://freepages.genealogy.rootsweb.com ... fg1258.htm

Stirnet, at

http://www.stirnet.com/HTML/genie/briti ... genet2.htm gives
Thomas's Wife as "Margaret (d 05.1349, probably widow of Henry, Lord
Theyes)", and does not suggest that there were two Margarets. It seems
that her identity is uncertain.

I have tried to check what that site has under Tiptoft, but the server
seems to have hiccups at the moment.

--
Don Aitken

Mail to the addresses given in the headers is no longer being
read. To mail me, substitute "clara.co.uk" for "freeuk.com".

[Gjest]

Just to confirm any confusion - I note I had a mistype in my original message
and I should have said 'with no proven evidence'. Sincere apologies.

Rose

[Gjest]

Dear Newsgroup,
Her Highness, Queen Elizabeth, consort of King
Robert II of the Scots,must surely be a favorite ancestress of HRH Charles,
Prince of Wales if only because She made the transition from mistress to Consort.
I can think of no other Queen in British history who has done so
successfully.A Faction of Scots Nobles assassinated Margaret Drummond before King James IV
went through a formal wedding ceremony with her.
Sincerely,
James W Cummings
Dixmont, Maine USA

[Gjest]

In a message dated 13/12/2004 22:38:49 GMT Standard Time, [email protected]
writes:

I can think of no other Queen in British history who has done so
At NO TIME would Scotland have considered itself British then or 400 years
later - possibly 'United' Kingdom history.
Pg

[Peter A. Kincaid]

At 06:52 PM 13/12/2004, you wrote:

In a message dated 13/12/2004 22:38:49 GMT Standard Time, [email protected]
writes:

I can think of no other Queen in British history who has done so
At NO TIME would Scotland have considered itself British then or 400 years
later - possibly 'United' Kingdom history.
Pg

Actually western Scotland south of the Forth was British in origin. Most
of the rest of Scotland would not have wanted to be called Scots as the
Scots were Irish. If she was a Mure from Ayrshire she might have thought
herself as British just as many North Americans today, 300 years later,
consider
themselves Scottish

Best wishes!

[Paul Mackenzie]

Note: In my original post above, I stated that the issue of Peter de
Brewes ultimately failed. Actually, it appears that only the issue of
his eldest two sons failed. Further research indicates that Peter de
Brewes had a third son who has living descendants.

Best Always Doug Richardson

Hi Doug and all:

I have recently been conducting some research
on this question and recently found some interesting
references concerning the failure of the issue of Peter
de Brewes of Tetbury. Whether these references are
conclusive remains to be seen.

The ultimate heir of Peter de Brewes of Tetbury
two sons Thomas d1361 and John de Brewes
d1338 was Thomas Greville alias Thomas Cokesey.
The said Thomas Greville died 1498 s.p and
whose heirs were found to be Thomas earl of
Surrey and Maurice Berkerley, brother and heir
of William late marquis of Berkerly kinsman and
heirs of George Brewes[1].

The reference [1] states that said Thomas Greville
was son of John Grevill alis Cokesey, son of Joyce
and sister of Hugh Cokesey, who in turn was the
son of Walter Cokesey, son of Isabel, daugther of
Agnes, sister of George de Brewes, and that George
was kinsman of Thomas earl of Surrey and Maurice
Berkeley.

Further references indicate that George de Brewes
was the son of John, brother of Thomas de Brewes
d1361, father of Thomas de Brewes 1395[2][3][4]. A
CIPM shows that said Thomas de Brewes d1361
was the son of Peter de Brewes d1312 of Tetbury.
Other primary references prove that said John de
Brewes was also the son of Peter de Brewes d1312.
It should be noted that the properties of the two
brothers Thomas and John ultimately ended up in
the hands of Hugh Cokesey and Thomas Cokesey.

The said heirship of Thomas earl of Surrey and Maurice
Berkeley came through Aliva, daugther and one of the
the co-heirs of William de Brewes, the elder half brother
of Peter de Brewes of Tetbury. [5] Aliva married
John Mowbray and the heirship passed through her
great-great-great grand daugthers Margaret and Isabella
Mowbray. The said Margaret Mowbray married Robert
Howard, and had a son John Howard who was the father
of said Thomas earl of Surrey. The said Isabella Mowbray
married James Berkeley who was the father of said Maurice
Berkeley. [5][6]. The lands of Thomas de Grevill were
partitioned between Thomas earl of Surrey and said
Maurice Berkeley.

Prima facia, one may conclude from reference [1]
that there were no living issue of Peter de Brewes of
Tetbury in 1498, and that Peter de Brewes of Wiston
and Margaret de Monthermer were not children of
Peter de Brewes of Tetbury.

However, Dugdale comments on reference [1] that
"no notice is taken of the issue of Joan the other daugther
and coheir of William de Brewes and wife of James de
Bohun of Midhurst, who were well certainly entitled to the
inheritance; and this seems the more extraordinary,
as one of the heirs of that line was married to Sir
David Owen, Knt, a natural son of Sir Owen Tudor,
father of the monach then upon the throne". As this
appears to be the case, then some doubt must arise as
to reference [1].

Other people's comments on how much weight
should be put on this reference [1] would be
appreciated.






[1] 1499 Calendar of Patent Rolls page 166
[2] 1445 Calendar of Patent Rolls page 391
[3] 1409 Calendar of Patent Rolls page 79
[4] 1408 Calendar of Patent Rolls page 30-31
[5] Additions to Dugdale's page 74
[6] Complete peerage

[Gjest]

And then there was her royal husband with, if I recall correctly,
Scandinavian roots that spent time in Normandy before pushing on to
Scotland....if we can't decide who WE are, how do we try to understand
how THEY thought in regard to their ethnic or national identity? By the
way, in the small touchstone to Scotland that we, in the US, call
"Highland Games", you will find virtually every color, stripe and spot
of humanity calling itself Scottish! At least for one or two days. ;~>

[Gjest]

I have Porphyria. My genealogy goes back to Frederick The Great thru
his son Prince Rupert of the Rhine(Bavaria) on my father's side and
back thru the royal Spencers and Du Trieux on my mother's side.
It is suspected I have the rarer form of Harderoporphyria that takes
two recessive genes, one from each parent. However, it cannot be proven
unless I can get to France for DNA testing as it is not being done
anywhere else at the moment and biological material cannot be sent from
the US to France right now without complications that would compromise
the sample.
Ravyn, Lady Heresy

[Gjest]

I have Porphyria. My genealogy goes back to Frederick The Great thru
his son Prince Rupert of the Rhine(Bavaria) on my father's side and
back thru the royal Spencers and Du Trieux on my mother's side.
It is suspected I have the rarer form of Harderoporphyria that takes
two recessive genes, one from each parent. However, it cannot be proven
unless I can get to France for DNA testing as it is not being done
anywhere else at the moment and biological material cannot be sent from
the US to France right now without complications that would compromise
the sample.
Ravyn, Lady Heresy

[Doug Thompson]

Paul Mackenzie at [email protected] wrote:

The ultimate heir of Peter de Brewes of Tetbury
two sons Thomas d1361 and John de Brewes
d1338 was Thomas Greville alias Thomas Cokesey.
The said Thomas Greville died 1498 s.p and
whose heirs were found to be Thomas earl of
Surrey and Maurice Berkerley, brother and heir
of William late marquis of Berkerly kinsman and
heirs of George Brewes[1].

[1] 1499 Calendar of Patent Rolls page 166

how much weight
should be put on this reference [1]?

Regards

Paul

Paul

My understanding is that this was a "special livery". I believe that
indicates that Thomas and Maurice were not known to be the right heirs, but
a grant of special livery by patent letters prevented a later dispute by an
alternative heir.

If I am right, this means that the descent of the Braose estates to them
sheds no light on the existence or not of descendants of Peter of Tetbury,
leaving the way open for Margaret de Monthermer and Peter of Wiston to be
his children. The existence of known Bohun descendants of Joan at the time
of the livery adds weight to this view. The livery should be seen as a grant
rather than an inheritance I think.

Doug

[Todd A. Farmerie]

To anyone responding to this thread - please trim extraneous newsgroups.

[Paul Mackenzie]

"Doug Thompson" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:BDE4EE44.52FF8%[email protected]...

Paul Mackenzie at [email protected] wrote:

The ultimate heir of Peter de Brewes of Tetbury
two sons Thomas d1361 and John de Brewes
d1338 was Thomas Greville alias Thomas Cokesey.
The said Thomas Greville died 1498 s.p and
whose heirs were found to be Thomas earl of
Surrey and Maurice Berkerley, brother and heir
of William late marquis of Berkerly kinsman and
heirs of George Brewes[1].

[1] 1499 Calendar of Patent Rolls page 166

how much weight
should be put on this reference [1]?

Regards

Paul



Paul

My understanding is that this was a "special livery". I believe that
indicates that Thomas and Maurice were not known to be the right heirs,
but
a grant of special livery by patent letters prevented a later dispute by
an
alternative heir.

If I am right, this means that the descent of the Braose estates to them
sheds no light on the existence or not of descendants of Peter of Tetbury,
leaving the way open for Margaret de Monthermer and Peter of Wiston to be
his children. The existence of known Bohun descendants of Joan at the time
of the livery adds weight to this view. The livery should be seen as a
grant
rather than an inheritance I think.

Doug

Hi Doug:

Reference [1] states:

" July 18, Westminster. Licence of entry for Thomas earl of Surrey and
Maurice Berkeley, brother and heir of William late marquis of Berkeley,
kinsman and heirs of George Brews, brother of Agnes mother of Isabel
late wife of Walter Cokesey, knight, into the lands of the aforesaid George
, Agnes and Isabel, deceased, or of Thomas Greville, alias Thomas Cokesey,
knight, John Greville his father, Joyce mother of said John, Hugh brother of
said Joyce, Walter father of said Hugh, and of the aforesaid Walter Cokesey,
knight, and Isabel, the father and mother of said Walter the father of Hugh.
by p.s."
[1] 1499 Calendar of Patent Rolls page 166

Page 74 of "Additions to Dugdale's Baronage" states:

"Thomas Earl of Surrey and Sir Maurice Berkeley (brother and heir of
William late Marquis Berkeley) were cousins and heirs of George Brewes
, the brother of Agnes, mother of Isabel sometime wife of Sir Walter
Cokesey. They had special livery of all manors, lordships, lands,
tenements, rents, reversions, knights' fees, advowsons, patronage
of Abbies, Priories, &c, &c, which "feurunt pdci Georij Brews aut psate
Agnetis seu presate Isabella et q post mortem of said George, Agnes,
and Isabel, or of Thomas Grevill ats Cokesey, Knt., John Greville father
of said Thomas, Joice mother of said John, Hugh brother of said Joice,
Walter father of said Hugh and of said Walter cokesey knt, and Isabel,
father and mother of said Walter, father of Hugh, or of any of them,
had come into the kings hands (Pat. of special livery 18 July 14 Hen
V11, p2. m.4)."


What you say seems highly probable. It would be nice to tie this
down one way or the other as it is extremely important regarding
the line of Peter de Brewes of Tetbury/Peter de Brewes of Wiston/
Margaret de Monthermer.

Many Thanks

Doug.

P.S. Also, I noted from a search of PROCAT there is a Inq.PostMortem on
Thomas Cokesey and a further document regarding the partition
of these properties. I have not seen these documents.

[Paul Mackenzie]

<[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...

Dear Paul ~

Thank you for taking the time to share your findings with the
newsgroup. Much apprecated.

Under normal circumstances, when Thomas Greville died, his estates
should have escheated to the crown, he having no near next of kin.
Instead, the crown awarded his lands to the Howard and Berkeley
descendants of a distant cousin of the half-blood, Aline de Brewes,
wife of John de Mowbray. And, as you have pointed out, the heirs of
Aline de Brewes' sister, Joan, were excluded in this settlement. In
addition to the heirs of Joan de Brewes being excluded, two other sets
of closer relatives of the FULL blood were excluded, namely the Shirley
descendants of Peter de Brewes the younger (died c. 1377), and the
Neville-Montagu descendants of Margaret de Monthermer (died 1349).
Basically, this confirms Dugdale's suspicion that something was afoul
in the settlement of Thomas Greville's estates in 1498.

Given these facts, I believe that the statement made in 1498 that Peter
de Brewes the elder (died 1312) had no living heirs was erroneous. If
so, this represents a rather unique case, in which the crown does not
seem to have been really interested in determining the rightful heir(s)
of Thomas Greville. But since the properties should normally have
escheated to the crown due to the lack of near heirs, perhaps
determining the rightful distant heir(s) in this case was an
unnecessary formality.

Another possibility exists that the Shirley descendants of Peter de
Brewes the younger may not have been aware that they were the closest
kin to Thomas Greville. A garbled account of the Brewes family is
found in fact in the Shirley pedigree recorded in the published Sussex
visitation. This pedigree identifies Peter de Brewes (presumably
senior is intended) as the son of "Jey" de Brewes and his wife, a
daughter of Lord Roos:

"Peter Brewes the son of Jey ... King Edw. the 3 by his charter gave
[him] the manor [of] Westneston in Sussex & Wedonhull in com'
Buckingham = ... d. of the Lord Ros" [Reference: Benolte et al. Vis. of
Sussex 1530 & 1633-4 (H.S.P. 53) (1905): 4-7].

Peter de Brewes was actually a younger son of William de Brewes (died
1291), of Bramber, Sussex, by his 3rd wife, Mary Roos. If the Shirley
family was confused about their Brewes ancestry, it may well explain
why they failed to step foward in 1498 and claim the Greville estates.
Simply put, a lot of forgetting can happen over the span of 200 years.


Having said that, all newsgroup members who are Shirley descendants may
now step forward and claim the Greville estates as the rightful heirs.
This is your lucky day.

Best always, Douglas Richardson, Salt Lake City, Utah

Hi Doug:

Many thanks for your well thought out conclusions. I knew
it was my lucky day.

From both your and Doug Thompson's comments, it does seem
that this reference[1499 Calendar of Patent Rolls] has little relevance
in determining who were or were not the parents of Peter de Brewes
of Wiston/ Margaret Monthermer.

Kind Regards and Season Greetings

[Paul K Davis]

This also removes one of the objections to my claim that Alice, wife of
Ralph St.Owen, was a daughter of Peter de Brewes of Tetbury.

-- PKD [Paul K Davis, [email protected]]

[Original Message]
From: Doug Thompson <[email protected]
To: <[email protected]
Date: 12/14/2004 11:27:48 AM
Subject: Re: Identity of Margaret, wife of Henry le Tyeys & Thomas
deMonthermer

Paul Mackenzie at [email protected] wrote:

The ultimate heir of Peter de Brewes of Tetbury
two sons Thomas d1361 and John de Brewes
d1338 was Thomas Greville alias Thomas Cokesey.
The said Thomas Greville died 1498 s.p and
whose heirs were found to be Thomas earl of
Surrey and Maurice Berkerley, brother and heir
of William late marquis of Berkerly kinsman and
heirs of George Brewes[1].

[1] 1499 Calendar of Patent Rolls page 166

how much weight
should be put on this reference [1]?

Regards

Paul



Paul

My understanding is that this was a "special livery". I believe that
indicates that Thomas and Maurice were not known to be the right heirs,
but
a grant of special livery by patent letters prevented a later dispute by
an
alternative heir.

If I am right, this means that the descent of the Braose estates to them
sheds no light on the existence or not of descendants of Peter of Tetbury,
leaving the way open for Margaret de Monthermer and Peter of Wiston to be
his children. The existence of known Bohun descendants of Joan at the time
of the livery adds weight to this view. The livery should be seen as a
grant
rather than an inheritance I think.

Doug

[Gjest]

Douglas Richardson wrote:

The one error that has really gotten circulation is Fair Rosamond
Clifford as the mother of William Longespee. Does anyone know if
the
new DNB has got William Longespee's mother correctly identified? I'd
be interested in knowing.

The new DNB states that his mother is unknown, but rules out both
Rosamund and "Ykenai or Hikenai". It doesn't even state her Christian
name, which has been known for a couple of decades.

If I remember correctly, Ray Phair was writing up the identification of
his mother for publication. Does anyone know whether the paper has
appeared yet? As the DNB people say they welcome corrections, it would
be good to put them straight on this.

Chris Phillips

[R. Battle]

On Wed, 15 Dec 2004 [email protected] wrote:
<snip>

If I remember correctly, Ray Phair was writing up the identification of
his (William Longespee's) mother for publication. Does anyone know
whether the paper has appeared yet? As the DNB people say they welcome
corrections, it would be good to put them straight on this.
snip

Ray Phair's article appeared in the October 2002 edition of "The American
Genealogist" (TAG), 77:279-281. Also worth mentioning is the article by
Paul Reed on the subject of Ida's identity in the April TAG of that year
(77:137-149).

-Robert Battle

[Tim Powys-Lybbe]

In message of 15 Dec, [email protected] wrote:

Douglas Richardson wrote:
The one error that has really gotten circulation is Fair Rosamond
Clifford as the mother of William Longespee.

In 1887, the DNB published this as part of its article on Rosamund
Clifford:

"Rosamond is commonly reported to have had two sons by Henry II, viz.
Geoffrey, archbishop of York, and William Longsword, earl of Salisbury.
This statement does not seem to reach further back than the end of the
sixteenth or beginning of the seventeenth century. Apparently it is
unknown to any English chronicler or historian before the publication
of Speed's ‘History of Great Britain' in 1611. It has since been
accepted by both Carte and Eyton. That Geoffrey and William cannot both
have been sons of Fair Rosamond is plain from the fact that the former
was born in 1151-2 (Gir. Cambr. iv. 384), whereas Rosamond is spoken of
as a ‘girl’ (puellam) more than twenty years later (Gir. Cambr. De
Instit. Princ. p. 91). We also know from Walter Map that Geoffrey's
mother was called Ykenai or Hikenai (De Nug. Curial. pp. 228, 235); and
it is worth notice that, according to Dr. Stubbs, William Longsword
laid claim to the inheritance of a Sir Roger de Akeny, a name which
bears a close resemblance to Walter Map's Ykenai (Gir. Cambr., ed.
Dimock, vii. p. xxxvii). There is moreover no positive evidence in
favour of William Longsword's being the son of Rosamond. In 1607, when
Margaret, wife of George Clifford, third earl of Cumberland [q.v.],
claimed the Clifford estates for her daughter Anne, and instituted
proceedings against her brother-in-law Francis, another claimant, the
Clifford genealogy was investigated, and the theory that William
Longsword was the son of Rosamond Clifford was adopted. It is true that
William Longsword first appears in history in 1196, when a son of Henry
by Rosamond would come of age. The manor of Appleby in Lincolnshire was
granted to one William Longsword (who proves to be the brother, and not
the son, of Henry II) before 1200; the manor of Appleby in Westmoreland
belonged to the Cliffords of the fourteenth century. A confusion
between these two properties may well have led the suitors of 1607 to
associate Longsword with the Clifford genealogy, and to support the
former's suggested parentage."

This makes it clear that as long ago as 1887 it was quite clear that
Rosamund was not the mother of Wm Longspee. So how could that idea have
"really gotten circulation"?

Does anyone know if the new DNB has got William Longespee's mother
correctly identified? I'd be interested in knowing.

The new DNB states that his mother is unknown, but rules out both
Rosamund and "Ykenai or Hikenai". It doesn't even state her Christian
name, which has been known for a couple of decades.

If I remember correctly, Ray Phair was writing up the identification of
his mother for publication. Does anyone know whether the paper has
appeared yet? As the DNB people say they welcome corrections, it would
be good to put them straight on this.

Chris Phillips

--
Tim Powys-Lybbe [email protected]
For a miscellany of bygones: http://powys.org

[Renia]

David Hepworth wrote:

Dear Newsgroup Members

Do any of you know of Universities around the world that are running
research projects or programmes on the development of British surname
and/or nickname nomenclature?

I have tried finding out such information from the Institute of
Historical Research in London, but they have nothing. I guess it would
need to be one that focusses on surnames and/or Christian names - but
I'm struggling - any input would be useful.

I've never heard of anything like this. I'd be interested in it. Why are
you interested? Email privately if you like. Just make sure of the deletion.

Renia

[Chris Phillips]

David Hepworth wrote [apparently - it seems part of usenet, including the
gateway from Google to Rootsweb, is still broken]:

Do any of you know of Universities around the world that are running
research projects or programmes on the development of British surname
and/or nickname nomenclature?

I have tried finding out such information from the Institute of
Historical Research in London, but they have nothing. I guess it would
need to be one that focusses on surnames and/or Christian names - but
I'm struggling - any input would be useful.

Yes - I think this is quite an active area of academic research.

You may find some useful information on this website, "Modern British
Surnames - a guide to the resources for the study of their frequency and
distribution":
http://homepages.newnet.co.uk/dance/webpjd/index.htm

Chris Phillips

[David Hepworth]

Chris, once again, thank you for this input - I've made contact with
some of the organisations (Leicester and Nottingham) and wait to see
what they come back with.

I'm still trying to find out more about the Rabehod surname and also
the development of compound surnames.

Cheers

David

[David Hepworth]

Chris, once again, thank you for this input - I've made contact with
some of the organisations (Leicester and Nottingham) and wait to see
what they come back with.

I'm still trying to find out more about the Rabehod surname and also
the development of compound surnames.

Cheers

David

[David Rorer]

Frederic the Great had no children, legimate or otherwise, so how could your
genealogy go to him through Prince Rupert of the Rhine?
<[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...

I have Porphyria. My genealogy goes back to Frederick The Great thru
his son Prince Rupert of the Rhine(Bavaria) on my father's side and
back thru the royal Spencers and Du Trieux on my mother's side.
It is suspected I have the rarer form of Harderoporphyria that takes
two recessive genes, one from each parent. However, it cannot be proven
unless I can get to France for DNA testing as it is not being done
anywhere else at the moment and biological material cannot be sent from
the US to France right now without complications that would compromise
the sample.
Ravyn, Lady Heresy

[Leo van de Pas]

Dear David,
Read the name signed at the bottom of that message and you should realise
you have had your leg pulled. Raving Heresy alright. Rubbish but I think it
was meant to be.
Best wishes
Leo van de Pas
----- Original Message -----
From: "David Rorer" <[email protected]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Friday, December 17, 2004 11:04 AM
Subject: Re: Porphyria and the descendants (?) of Henry VIII

Frederic the Great had no children, legimate or otherwise, so how could
your
genealogy go to him through Prince Rupert of the Rhine?
[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
I have Porphyria. My genealogy goes back to Frederick The Great thru
his son Prince Rupert of the Rhine(Bavaria) on my father's side and
back thru the royal Spencers and Du Trieux on my mother's side.
It is suspected I have the rarer form of Harderoporphyria that takes
two recessive genes, one from each parent. However, it cannot be proven
unless I can get to France for DNA testing as it is not being done
anywhere else at the moment and biological material cannot be sent from
the US to France right now without complications that would compromise
the sample.
Ravyn, Lady Heresy

[Nathaniel Taylor]

In article <[email protected]>,
"Chris Phillips" <[email protected]> wrote:

David Hepworth wrote [apparently - it seems part of usenet, including the
gateway from Google to Rootsweb, is still broken]:
Do any of you know of Universities around the world that are running
research projects or programmes on the development of British surname
and/or nickname nomenclature?

I have tried finding out such information from the Institute of
Historical Research in London, but they have nothing. I guess it would
need to be one that focusses on surnames and/or Christian names - but
I'm struggling - any input would be useful.

Yes - I think this is quite an active area of academic research.

You may find some useful information on this website, "Modern British
Surnames - a guide to the resources for the study of their frequency and
distribution":
http://homepages.newnet.co.uk/dance/webpjd/index.htm

There is an academic circle centered in France who have been publishing
a series of collections of studies on onomastics, under the title
_Genèse médiévale de l'anthoponymie moderne_ (Monique Bourin is one of
the active leaders / editors). This is a consortium of interested
researchers, rather than a specific institute or funded programme.
Focus is mostly Continental rather than British, but there are, I think,
a couple of British-oriented studies distributed in the various volumes.

Nat

Nat Taylor

a genealogist's sketchbook:
http://home.earthlink.net/~nathanieltaylor/leaves/

[Steve Barnhoorn]

Newsgroup:


Stumbled across this item in search of details on Hilary Folet, wife
of Richard Muscegros (d. ca. 1200), and grandmother of Robert
Muscegros (d. 1254):

Rotuli Chartarum in Turri Londinensi asservati, ed. Thomas Duffus
Hardy (London: Printed by G. Eyre and A. Spottiswoode, 1837), 51b,
Memb. 8: called "Ric de Muzegros fil Hilari filie Willi Folet," as of
xxvj April, Anno 1 John.

<<<<<Is this the right line? Where would Hilary Folet daughter of
William Folet fit into this picture?>>>>

Thanks!

Steve Barnhoorn

[Don Stone]

These might be helpful:

George Redmonds, Surnames and Genealogy: A New Approach.

George Redmonds, Names and History : People, Places and Things. (Just
published.)

-- Don Stone

[[email protected]]

IIRC, Alexander didn't have any sons who lived to adulthood and produced male heirs -- otherwise, how'd Ptolemy, Seleucus, and Antigonus end up with everything?

David Teague

________________________________________________________________
Juno Gift Certificates
Give the gift of Internet access this holiday season.
http://www.juno.com/give

[StephenButt]

For some further details of the Belers family, you might like to look at my
family website at http://www.woodforde.co.uk.

The Woodford(e)s and the Belers intermarried. I am descended from Alice
Prest the daughter of Walter Prest (mentioned at the top of this page).

I would be very grateful to receive any further information anyone may
have regarding the Woodford side of this descent.

Best wishes,

Stephen Butt.

[Gjest]

In the area of time in which this list is concerned the "lesser" members of
society were probably lucky to have enough to eat and a place to sleep. No
one cared about keeping track of any of their doings, such as deaths, births,
etc. It has only been since the founding of the United States that decent
record keeping on the little people has been even attempted. If the Europeans
had cared a little more for their braceros perhaps they would have stayed at
home and not crossed the big water to the land of opportunity, as so many did.

I would dearly love to find out about the day to day activities of any of my
less documented ancestors. I would even like to know some of their names,
particularly the women.

Gordon Hale
Grand Prairie, Texas

[Tim Powys-Lybbe]

In message of 22 Dec, [email protected] wrote:

In the area of time in which this list is concerned the "lesser"
members of society were probably lucky to have enough to eat and a
place to sleep. No one cared about keeping track of any of their
doings, such as deaths, births, etc. It has only been since the
founding of the United States that decent record keeping on the little
people has been even attempted.

Parish records of births marriages and deaths instituted in mid 16th
century in England? I know that not all such records have survived but
quite a lot have. At a rough guess that was a little over two hundred
years _before_ the "founding of the United States".

If the Europeans had cared a little more for their braceros perhaps
they would have stayed at home and not crossed the big water to the
land of opportunity, as so many did.

At least England is usually not part of Europe. The average native
here when they say Europe, they strictly mean the goddam foreigners
across the channel.

I would dearly love to find out about the day to day activities of
any of my less documented ancestors. I would even like to know some
of their names, particularly the women.

By and large it pays to have ancestors who did not move. Dull they may
have been but they were traceable.

--
Tim Powys-Lybbe [email protected]
For a miscellany of bygones: http://powys.org

[Doug McDonald]

Tim Powys-Lybbe wrote:

Parish records of births marriages and deaths instituted in mid 16th
century in England? I know that not all such records have survived but
quite a lot have.

Yes, but did everybody actually get entered? I have numerous
immigrant lines that go back one generation, or two, in England
or Scotland, and then the trail vanishes. At least that is what
prior researchers have found. Are you telling me that a great
bonanza remains for me to find, where others have failed? These
are all in the 17th or very early 18th century.

Doug McDonald

[Tim Powys-Lybbe]

In message of 22 Dec, Doug McDonald <mcdonald@SnPoAM_scs.uiuc.edu> wrote:

Tim Powys-Lybbe wrote:

Parish records of births marriages and deaths instituted in mid 16th
century in England? I know that not all such records have survived but
quite a lot have.

Yes, but did everybody actually get entered? I have numerous
immigrant lines that go back one generation, or two, in England
or Scotland, and then the trail vanishes. At least that is what
prior researchers have found. Are you telling me that a great
bonanza remains for me to find, where others have failed? These
are all in the 17th or very early 18th century.

Many records have been lost, we all know that. Some people did not
bother to go to church. Some clergymen did not do as they were told.
So, of course everybody did not get entered. But the law was still
passed (in England in 1538) and implemented for enormous numbers of the
population.

I do not know about Scotland as that was a separate country with its
own laws until 1707.

--
Tim Powys-Lybbe [email protected]
For a miscellany of bygones: http://powys.org

[Gjest]

Yes, but did everybody actually get entered? I have numerous
immigrant lines that go back one generation, or two, in England

or Scotland, and then the trail vanishes. At least that is what
prior researchers have found. Are you telling me that a great
bonanza remains for me to find, where others have failed? These
are all in the 17th or very early 18th century.<<

Parish Registers started in 1538 and a lot have survived back to this date.
Unfortunately, due to damp and cold conditions in churches and mice, some have
not survived. During the English Civil War records were very 'hit and miss'
but after that period up to 1837 they should be reliable. If you can't find
someone in the parish you expected to find them, then try adjoining parishes.
Likewise, people moved around much more than we think so they are not always
to be found in the areas we expect to find them. Also, the IGI is very
incomplete for many areas in England and Wales (especially Wales).

[Nathaniel Taylor]

In article <[email protected]>,
Doug McDonald <mcdonald@SnPoAM_scs.uiuc.edu> wrote:

Parish records of births marriages and deaths instituted in mid 16th
century in England? I know that not all such records have survived but
quite a lot have.

Yes, but did everybody actually get entered? I have numerous
immigrant lines that go back one generation, or two, in England
or Scotland, and then the trail vanishes. At least that is what
prior researchers have found. Are you telling me that a great
bonanza remains for me to find, where others have failed? These
are all in the 17th or very early 18th century.

For those emigrants whose origins are already established, it may not be
easy to push the envelope. But for the great majority of immigrants
with hitherto unknown origin, there is certainly a new hope.

It has surely become easier to identify the parentage of seventeenth-
and eighteenth-century English emigrants, with on-line searching of
extracted parish records, and similar broad-based strategies.
Intelligent searching of IGI and A2A has allowed identifications which
before would have been impossible save by chance. The bugbear remains
the name's-the-same problem, but often an extracted parish register
match may lead to focused will and deed searching that can provide
confirmation of an identity. Regular poster Leslie Mahler, for example,
has in the last few years published a number of immigrant-origin
articles based at least partly on leads generated by IGI hits and the
like.

I would like to see statistics: for a given cohort of
seventeenth-century migrants (for example, the New England immigrants
profiled by Robert Anderson's _The Great Migration_ project), what
percentage have known origins, and how recently were those origins first
established in print? A broad sample *might* show a surge in such
identifications in the past ten or fifteen years.

Statistically, of course, most such identifications will enable the
addition of only one to four generations of ancestry to a
seventeenth-century subject (or, back to the earliest registers of the
subject's locale); but sometimes one gets lucky with a longer ancestry
(not lucky in any reflected glory of descent from someone with property,
but simply lucky that this enables further exploration: a door ajar).

Nat Taylor

a genealogist's sketchbook:
http://home.earthlink.net/~nathanieltaylor/leaves/

[[email protected]]

I wonder if p. 129 of the _Visitation of Hertfordshire_ has any
implications for the paternal (Dudley) line of Gov. Thomas Dudley of
Massachusetts ....

See
http://www.uk-genealogy.org.uk/england/ ... index.html

[Kelly Graham]

On 23 Decr. 2004, at 11:AM, D. Spencer Hines declared..

Truly the lady doth protest too much.

What she describes is simply Reverse Classism in Britain --- part of the
British pretense that classes do not exist -- whereas we all know the
Brits have a highly-developed, complex and most amusing Class System.

DSH

Lux et Veritas et Libertas

Vires et Honor

"Rose" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...

| Joy,
|

| I am begining to think my original message has been taken out of
| context. It does not bother me in the slightest Americans or anyone
| else tracing their ancestry back to British Royalty. And I am
| certainly NOT anti-American. What concerns me is the way in which
| Americans (mostly) always seem to have to publicise the fact that
| someone in the public eye (i.e. Presidents etc.,) have descent from
| some far-flung British monarch, It is not the case that they can show
| their ancestry at all (good luck to them if they can), just why do we
| all need to have it rammed down our throats!


Yes, DS and Rose, we *do* have a sence of "Classism" here is America,
and it is only the elitists here that proclaim we don't try to live by it, and those who
idolize these pundits that believe them! We, in America, are every bit as class-
conscience as our British, French, Spanish, Dutch, and German forebearers!!

Many of us probably look for a kind of.. presence, for lack of a better word..
that neither money nor today's instant-fame can POSSIBLY buy!

Of course, some of the worst rogues in history were of royal and noble birth.
I probably descend from some of them!!

Kelly Paul Graham

[Gjest]

In a message dated 12/23/2004 10:59:13 PM Eastern Standard Time,
[email protected] writes:

Yes, DS and Rose, we *do* have a sence of "Classism" here is America,
and it is only the elitists here that proclaim we don't try to live by it,
and those who
idolize these pundits that believe them! We, in America, are every bit as
class-
conscience as our British, French, Spanish, Dutch, and German forebearers!!



Yes, you are correct. There is a class consciousness in the United States,
alas. You do not have to live by it. I never have. I will usually see the
humor in anyone who thinks they are better than anyone else. That does not
mean that I am blind to all of the various intellects and abilities of those
around me. I am, but I do not let that affect my actions. Or at least I try
my best not to.

Gordon Hale
Grand Prairie, Texas

[Brad Verity]

Douglas Richardson wrote:

Sometime ago, someone on the newsgroup questioned the parentage of
Elizabeth Berkeley (died 1478), wife successively of Edward
Cherleton,
K.G., 5th Lord Cherleton, and John Sutton, K.G., 1st Lord Dudley.

That was me, after reading the translation of the Chronicle of Adam of
Usk by Chris Given-Wilson.

I
was rather surprised that Elizabeth's parentage would come under
question, as standard sources all concur that Elizabeth was a
daughter
of John Berkeley, Knt., of Beverstone, Gloucestershire, by Elizabeth,
daughter and heiress of John de Betteshorne.

Standard sources? Do you mean CP? That work provided no source for
its statement that Elizabeth was a Berkeley of Beverstone.

My own research indicates that Elizabeth Berkeley is fully identified
as the daughter of Sir John Berkeley in no less than three
visitations,
one for the Berkeley family, one for the Cherleton family, and one
for
the Sutton-Dudley family (see transcripts below).

Thank you for those. I'd like to point out that only one of the
Visitations (the Shropshire one) makes any mention of Cherleton's wife
Elizabeth being a Berkeley. The other two do not mention at all that
she was Cherleton's wife.

Here's another example of how we disagree over methodology. You seem
to have relied on Visitation evidence from 1623 and (modern) "standard
sources" (CP, I'm assuming) that an Elizabeth Berkeley of Beverstone
married 1st, Edward Cherleton, and 2nd, Lord Dudley.

But what is the 15th-century evidence that Elizabeth, wife of Edward
Cherleton, and Elizabeth, wife of Lord Dudley, were the same woman? CP
offers no source for this identification in either the Cherleton or
Dudley articles. Before we go any further, we need contemporary
evidence of that being the case.

Elizabeth's IPM would seem to be definitive:

C 140/69/19 [Berkeley], Elizabeth, who was the wife of 1) Edward
Charleton, kt, Lord Charleton de Powys and 2) John Sutton, kt, Lord
Dudley Salop and the marches of Wales 19 Edw IV

But this is merely the modern description of it in the National
Archives. What if the catalogue was merely using CP? The IPM has not
yet been published, so we don't know if it contains evidence of all
three (Berkeley/Cherleton/Dudley) identities for Elizabeth.

I likewise find that
Elizabeth was a legatee in the 1459 will of her sister, Eleanor
Hungerford, Countess of Arundel, who bequeathed her a row of pearls.

This is very good evidence that Elizabeth was a Berkeley of Beverstone.
Does the will specify Elizabeth's relationship to Eleanor as sister?
Does it style her as lady of Powis, or as lady of Dudley?

Conclusive evidence that Elizabeth, Lady Cherleton, was a Berkeley
can
be found on her personal seal attached to a document dated 1421,
which
artifact is described in the book, Catalogue of Seals in the Public
Record, Personal Seals, by Roger H. Ellis, vol. 1 (1978): 16. The
seal
bears a traceried circle, with a shield of arms: a lion rampant
[CHERLETON], impaling a chevron between ten crosses paty [BERKELEY].

I don't know heraldry, but this would seem to be, as you say, very
strong evidence that the widow of Edward Cherleton was a Berkeley. Did
the Berkeleys of Beverstone use the same arms as the lords Berkeley?

Interested parties can find further details of Elizabeth (Berkeley)
(Cherleton) Sutton's life, ancestry, and descendants in my book,
Plantagenet Ancestry (2004).

I'm more interested in firmly establishing Elizabeth's parentage and
marriages. The evidence summed up is:

1) Edward Cherleton, lord of Powis, married a daughter of the earl of
Devon. 1408 evidence: Chronicle of Adam of Usk, for whom Cherleton was
his chief patron.
2) Edward Cherleton had a wife who survived him named Elizabeth.
1421-22 evidence [Cal. Fine Rolls, C 138/54/126: assignment of dower].
3) This widow Elizabeth bore the arms of Berkeley. 1421 evidence: her
personal seal.
4) Eleanor, countess of Arundel, who was born a Berkeley of Beverstone,
left a row of pearls to Elizabeth. 1459 evidence: will of Eleanor [but
we don't yet know if Elizabeth was specified as sister, or by the title
of lady of Powis].
5) Elizabeth, widow of Edward Cherleton, married Lord Dudley and died
in 1478. 1478 evidence: IPM [but we don't know if the actual document,
as opposed to the modern catalogue description, makes the
Cherleton/Dudley identification]. 1623 evidence: Cherleton pedigree in
Shropshire Visitation.

There are two possible solutions to reconcile all of the evidence
above:

A) Edward Cherleton had a Courtenay wife between Eleanor Holland and
Elizabeth Berkeley.
B) Adam of Usk, who was hiding out in 1408 upon his return to
England/Wales, mistook the wedding of Cherleton's stepdaughter Eleanor
de Mortimer to the son and heir of the earl of Devon, for that of
Cherleton himself.

Either scenario above would clear up the chronological difficulty of a
woman who died in 1478 being married in 1408. The only source for the
1408 marriage date appears to be Adam of Usk, so Elizabeth could've
married Cherleton much later - at any point before his 1421 death.

Thanks again for checking into your sources on Elizabeth, widow of
Edward Cherleton.
Cheers and Happy Holidays, ----------Brad

[Gjest]

[email protected] wrote:

Leo Akershoek wrote:

Leo van de Pas wrote:
.....(snip).....
.... tells us that Sophie is born ....(snip).. ..
in Uccle (not Bruxelles).
Fanning tells us Uccle is near Bruxelles.
In fact, it is very close to "Brussel" ot "Bruxelles"
Only since mid 1700 the city was also named with the french name
"Bruxelles"


The last sentence is correct. (The municipality of) Uccle is near
(the
municipality of (Bruxelles). Consequently:

I understand Uccle to be a part of Bruxelles
is a misunderstanding.
but if it is Uccle then shouldn't that be quoted?
Yes

Sorry. But you have "la Region de Bruxelles-Capitalel" (Brussels
Capital Regio) with

19 "communes"... such as Anderlecht, Forest, St-Gilles, Uccle,
Watermael...
Uccle is one of the 19 'communes' !
More infos on <http://www.eurobru.com>

Even more:
"Uccle" should be "Ukkel", but certainly not Brussels
Of course, there are people, dreaming from a "greater Bruxelles"

Kindest regards,
Same to you
All the best

Frans Vandenbosch

[Doug McDonald]

Brice Claggett wrote:

***********************
Somerled, recently discussed here, married Ragnhild, daughter
of Olaf III Kleining, King of Man. There has long been uncertainty
as to Ragnhild's mother. The Red Book of Clanranald says
Ragnhild was the legitimate daughter of King Olaf and transmitted
a claim to Man to her descendants. The Manx chronicle says she
was daughter of Olaf by a concubine. If Ragnhild's mother was
Olaf's wife Ingibiorg, daughter of Hakon Paulsson, Jarl of Orkney,
then Somerled's descendants can claim a host of colorful Nordic
ancestors such as Thorfinn Skull-Cleaver, Ragnvald the Wise,
Harald Fairhair, Ketil Flatnose, Grim the Ram, and Aud Ketilsdotter
(called Djupaudga, the Extremely Rich, or Djupaudga, the Deeply
Wise), said to be the first recorded Norse convert to Christianity,
who settled in Iceland c. 875. See generally CP vol. 10 app. A,
"Norse Predecessors of the Earls of Orkney," and ES 2:79-80,
105-09.
***********************************************

I now of course have the CP and also SP, but not ES,
of which our library has only the first edition, which is
checked out.

The "best" meaning "complete but unreliable" source I have
connecting to the earlier people in this very colorful list
is the Clan Donald web site.
http://www.clandonald.org.uk/genealogy.htm
All those folks are there,
and many others too, including Gorm the Old, Rolf the Ganger, etc.
who have been well discussed in s.g.m.. They are, of course, in that
file's world-view, my ancestors.

Are there references I can find readily about people like Aud,
Harald Fairhair, especially, or could someone perhpas look at that
web site to see what is reliable, beyond what is in CP and SP?

Doug McDonald

[Alex Maxwell Findlater]

According to Daphne Brooke, TDGNHAS, Vol LXVI, 1991, there are three
references to the relationship of the family of Fergus with the English
royal family:

Quote

Three sources imply nevertheless that Fergus was related in such a way
to Henry I that marriage with one of his many natural daughters is the
only reasonable explanation:

a) In relating the violent death of Uchtred son of Fergus, Roger de
Howden records that Henry II claimed that Uchtred was his cousin

b) King John of England (Henry II's son and great-grandson of Henry
I) is quoted as writing in 1210 "And while we were at Carrickfergus
after the capture of that Castle, a certain friend and relative of
ours, Duncan of Carrick, announced to us that he had taken prisoner
Matilda de Haye and her daughter...." Duncan of Carrick was the son
of Gilbert son of Fergus. (Ref Rhymer's Foedera)

c) In the year 1166 the chronicler Robert de Torigni refers to the king
of the Isles (Godred of Man) as "cousin of the English King (Henry
II) on the side of Matilda the Empress his mother (Henry I's
legitimate daughter). Godred was the son of Fergus' daughter,
Affrica.

Unquote

[Paul K Davis]

Whether or not a claim of inheritance implies legitimate birth depends upon
cultural attitudes. As I recall, the Welsh divided an inheritance equally
among all sons, legitimate or illegitimate, whereas the English gave all
inheritance to the oldest legitimate son, or divided it equally among all
legitimate daughters when there was no legitimate son. The Isle of Man had
been under Welsh, English, and Viking influence. I don't know the Viking
attitude on this.

-- PKD [Paul K Davis, [email protected]]

[Original Message]
From: Doug McDonald <mcdonald@SnPoAM_scs.uiuc.edu
To: <[email protected]
Date: 12/25/2004 10:15:01 AM
Subject: Re: Clagett on Somerled's wife

Brice Claggett wrote:

***********************
Somerled, recently discussed here, married Ragnhild, daughter
of Olaf III Kleining, King of Man. There has long been uncertainty
as to Ragnhild's mother. The Red Book of Clanranald says
Ragnhild was the legitimate daughter of King Olaf and transmitted
a claim to Man to her descendants. The Manx chronicle says she
was daughter of Olaf by a concubine. If Ragnhild's mother was
Olaf's wife Ingibiorg, daughter of Hakon Paulsson, Jarl of Orkney,
then Somerled's descendants can claim a host of colorful Nordic
ancestors such as Thorfinn Skull-Cleaver, Ragnvald the Wise,
Harald Fairhair, Ketil Flatnose, Grim the Ram, and Aud Ketilsdotter
(called Djupaudga, the Extremely Rich, or Djupaudga, the Deeply
Wise), said to be the first recorded Norse convert to Christianity,
who settled in Iceland c. 875. See generally CP vol. 10 app. A,
"Norse Predecessors of the Earls of Orkney," and ES 2:79-80,
105-09.
***********************************************

I now of course have the CP and also SP, but not ES,
of which our library has only the first edition, which is
checked out.

The "best" meaning "complete but unreliable" source I have
connecting to the earlier people in this very colorful list
is the Clan Donald web site.
http://www.clandonald.org.uk/genealogy.htm
All those folks are there,
and many others too, including Gorm the Old, Rolf the Ganger, etc.
who have been well discussed in s.g.m.. They are, of course, in that
file's world-view, my ancestors.

Are there references I can find readily about people like Aud,
Harald Fairhair, especially, or could someone perhpas look at that
web site to see what is reliable, beyond what is in CP and SP?

Doug McDonald

[Gjest]

Dear Brice et als,
The Vikings` inheritance laws were such that
especially in Norway, it was not uncommon up to around 1202 for illegitimate sons
of kings such as Magnus III succeeding his father Olaf III in 1093, his sons
Eystein I, Sigurd I, and Olaf IV succeeding him in 1103, a supposed half
brother Harald IV succeeding Sigurd I in 1130,Harald IV`s illiegitimate son Sigurd
II found it prudent , however to marry Sigurd I`s legitimate daughter Cristina,
their daughter Cecily married Baard Guttormsson. Sigurd II was murdered in
1155 and left also illegitimate sons Hakon II who succeeded his legitimately
born uncle Inge I in 1161, followed by brothers Sigurd III in 1162, and later in
1184 a 3rd brother, Sverker I took the throne . Sverker`s legitmate son
Hakon III succeeded him in 1202 and was murdered in 1204, when Princess Cecily`s
son Inge II became king, He died in 1217 and Hakon III`s illegitimate son Hakon
IV succeeded to the throne and married for his 2nd wife Margaret Skulesdattar
whom some including the late Sir Iain Moncreiffe of that Ilk give as a
granddaughter paternally of Baard Guttormsson and Princess Cecily of Norway.
Sources: Jiri Louda and Michael Maclagan `Heraldry of the Royal Families of
Europe Clarkson Potter Inc of New York, Ortis Pubishing US copyright 1981
Table 24 Early Kings of Norway ( House of Yngling ); Sir Iain Moncreiffe of that
Ilk Royal Highness,: Ancestry of the Royal Child (1982) Hamish Hamilton,
London p 109 table 35 Scandanavia : Norway Ynglingar ( Vanir)
Sincerely,
James W Cummings
Dixmont, Maine USA

[Gjest]

Dear Newsgroup.
I just took a look at the onomastic evidence of
the names given Joan`s four daughters Eleanor who m Thomas Hoo, Cecily who m
Robert Willoughby, Margaret m Thomas Dymoke and Katherine, wife of Thomas de
la Laund and Robert Tempest and the names Eleanor, Cecily and Margaret gave
their children and thus far, barring Eleanor having used the name Anne in
substitution for Joan, it seems far likelier that Cecily Fleming was Joan Waterton`s
mother than Joan Everingham.

Sincerely,

James W Cummings

Dixmont, Maine USA

[Gjest]

In a message dated 12/30/2004 11:01:29 AM Eastern Standard Time,
[email protected] writes:

Question what is Draper?



In my mind a draper is a vendor of clothing, specifically men's clothing, I
think.

Gordon Hale
Grand Prairie, Texas

[Gjest]

a DRAPER was one of the most lucrative ' professions' of the medieval period
- The draper, a man who bought and sold Cloth, of all kinds, also in some
cases dyeing it, was in many cases a banker, of sorts, - many 'noble' lineages
of France started off as drapers, with very large fortunes. Two families I can
think of, the Laurencin, of Lyon, started off as drapers in the 14th
Century, ennobled at the end of the 15th and acquired some of the highest honors of
the old regime. Another, the Folquier d'Airebaudouse, of Anduse, had the same
history as the Laurencin, and eventually acquired, in the 16th Century, the
Marquisate of Anduse - all through an initial fortune made through the buying
and selling of Cloth!
PG

[Janet Ariciu]

If what Mr Hale says a draper is "draper is a vendor of clothing,
specifically men's clothing."

I was thinking the same thing or making fine clothing but with Elizabeth
Filmer being knight. Would be step down in marriage?

Sir Edward FILMER born abt 17 Jan 1566, of East Sutton, Kent, England,
occupation Lord of Charleton Manor and purchased the manor of East Sutton
from his brother-in-law John ARGALL, esq. Sir Edward married 1585 (and was
married for 44 years), to Elizabeth ARGALL , born abt 1570/75, Kent,
England, (daughter of Richard ARGALL and Mary (Marie) SCOTT). Elizabeth died
9 Aug 1638, East Sutton, Kent, England, buried: East Sutton Church, Kent,
England. Sir Edward died 2 Nov 1629, East Sutton, Kent, England, buried:
East Sutton Church, E. Sutton, Kent, England. 18 children (9 sons, 9
daughters) are named on his brass monument.

Janet Ariciu


-----Original Message-----
From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]]
Sent: Thursday, December 30, 2004 10:25 AM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: occupation



In a message dated 12/30/2004 11:01:29 AM Eastern Standard Time,
[email protected] writes:

Question what is Draper?



In my mind a draper is a vendor of clothing, specifically men's clothing, I
think.

Gordon Hale
Grand Prairie, Texas


---
Incoming mail is certified Virus Free.
Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).
Version: 6.0.815 / Virus Database: 554 - Release Date: 12/14/2004

---
Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free.
Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).
Version: 6.0.815 / Virus Database: 554 - Release Date: 12/14/2004

[Janet Ariciu]

Barbara Johnson me to this site
http://www.thedrapers.co.uk/History/1_Introduction.html

The Origins of the Company


Title

The full title of the Drapers’ Company is "The Master and Wardens and
Brethren and Sisters of the Guild or Fraternity of the Blessed Mary the
Virgin of the Mystery of Drapers of the City of London". The word Mystery
comes from the Latin “misterium” meaning professional skill.
The Origins of Guilds
Early guilds or companies of the City of London acted as mutual protection
societies providing a fraternity for their members, their trading element
not at first being apparent. Having no common meeting house, they commonly
gathered in a neighbouring church, monastery or hospital, whose saint they
adopted as patron. In the 14th century, they began to obtain Charters from
the Crown, giving them definite constitutions and rights of holding
property, and defining their duties and responsibilities.


The Foundation of the Drapers’ Company
The first royal charter granted to the Drapers is dated 1364 and the first
ordinances cite a date of 1361 for the fraternity’s foundation, although an
informal association of drapers undoubtedly existed as early as 1180.

A Brotherhood of Drapers, a religious fraternity attached to the church of
St. Mary Bethlehem in Bishopsgate, is also known to have existed in the
1360s. It was founded in honour of St. Mary by ‘good people Drapers of
Cornhill and other good men and women’ for the amendment of their lives. The
location of St. Mary can hardly have been convenient for the majority of
Drapers who lived in and around Cornhill, Candlewick Street (now Cannon
Street) and Chepe (Cheapside). Possibly it was for this reason that
allegiance was transferred to St. Mary le Bow in Cheapside and later to St.
Michael’s Cornhill, where the Company continues to worship today. Despite
these changes, the Drapers have retained the Blessed Virgin Mary as patron
saint.

In 1438 the guild received its Charter of Incorporation recognizing the
Drapers as a legal corporate fraternity, a Company which has perpetual
succession and a Common seal. Over the centuries the original privileges
granted by Royal Charter have been confirmed and amended by successive
monarchs. The acting Charter of today is that granted by James I in 1607,
amended by three Supplemental Charters, most recently in 1964.

How PG states

a DRAPER was one of the most lucrative ' professions' of the medieval
period
- The draper, a man who bought and sold Cloth, of all kinds, also in some
cases dyeing it, was in many cases a banker, of sorts, - many 'noble'
lineages
of France started off as drapers, with very large fortunes. Two families I
can
think of, the Laurencin, of Lyon, started off as drapers in the 14th
Century, ennobled at the end of the 15th and acquired some of the highest
honors of
the old regime. Another, the Folquier d'Airebaudouse, of Anduse, had the
same
history as the Laurencin, and eventually acquired, in the 16th Century, the
Marquisate of Anduse - all through an initial fortune made through the
buying
and selling of Cloth!


Now my question still stands

Elizabeth Filmer being a daughter of a knight and she m'd William Faulkner
a Draper. Would be step down in marriage?

Sir Edward FILMER born abt 17 Jan 1566, of East Sutton, Kent, England,
occupation Lord of Charleton Manor and purchased the manor of East Sutton
from his brother-in-law John ARGALL, esq. Sir Edward married 1585 (and was
married for 44 years), to Elizabeth ARGALL , born abt 1570/75, Kent,
England, (daughter of Richard ARGALL and Mary (Marie) SCOTT). Elizabeth died
9 Aug 1638, East Sutton, Kent, England, buried: East Sutton Church, Kent,
England. Sir Edward died 2 Nov 1629, East Sutton, Kent, England, buried:
East Sutton Church, E. Sutton, Kent, England. 18 children (9 sons, 9
daughters) are named on his brass monument.

Janet Ariciu




---
Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free.
Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).
Version: 6.0.815 / Virus Database: 554 - Release Date: 12/14/2004

[Gjest]

In a message dated 30/12/2004 19:04:58 GMT Standard Time, [email protected]
writes:

Elizabeth Filmer being a daughter of a knight and she m'd William Faulkner
a Draper. Would be step down in marriage?

In socio-economic terms it would be - She is the daughter of an armiger, he
has no coat of arms, i.e she marries a prosperous middle class tradesman,
although she is the daughter of a member of the 'elite' - Many members of the
Gentry married their daughters off to a rising man because they would not have
to give then a dowry. The fact that the daughter was married to a 'tradesman'
usually meant that the family had little else to offer except for
'Gentility'...in other words her family was going down, so to speak.
It could well be that miss filmer's father was himself a tradesman at the
beginning of his working life and was made a knight for 'services', therefore
she would be marrying someone about the right social background - there are
many permutations, especially at this time in the history of England when
England was going through a period of great social instability.
PG


Sir Edward FILMER born abt 17 Jan 1566, of East Sutton, Kent, England,
occupation Lord of Charleton Manor and purchased the manor of East Sutton
from his brother-in-law John ARGALL, esq. Sir Edward married 1585 (and was
married for 44 years), to Elizabeth ARGALL , born abt 1570/75, Kent,
England, (daughter of Richard ARGALL and Mary (Marie) SCOTT). Elizabeth died
9 Aug 1638, East Sutton, Kent, England, buried: East Sutton Church, Kent,
England. Sir Edward died 2 Nov 1629, East Sutton, Kent, England, buried:
East Sutton Church, E. Sutton, Kent, England. 18 children (9 sons, 9
daughters) are named on his brass monument.

Janet Ariciu




---
Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free.
Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).
Version: 6.0.815 / Virus Database: 554 - Release Date: 12/14/2004

[John Steele Gordon]

""Janet Ariciu"" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:001a01c4eea1$97886420$3971a00c@janety74ccy4ld...

If what Mr Hale says a draper is "draper is a vendor of clothing,
specifically men's clothing."

I was thinking the same thing or making fine clothing but with Elizabeth
Filmer being knight. Would be step down in marriage?

These class-cash marriages were not uncommon in England (see Shakespeare in
Love for a perfect--if fictional--example, where the bankrupt Earl of Wessex
marries the daughter of a rich merchant, a daughter who also, of course,
happens to be knock-out gorgeous, but it was the money he was after).
Because nobility was restricted in Britain to the holder of the title
itself, there was no closed noble class and marriages between gentry
families and merchant families were much more common there than on the
continent.

A perfect example would be Sir William Hewitt. Born in the early 16th
century in Wales, (a town in Yorkshire, not the principality) he was
apprenticed to a member of the Clothworker's Guild. He made an immense
fortune in trade (his income at his death in 1567 was said to be £6000 a
year, the equal of all but the very richest of the nobility), served as
sheriff of London (as which he presided over the execution of Lady Jane Grey
and Guildford Dudley) and Lord Mayor. While his great grandfather is
unknown, his great great grandson would be created Duke of Leeds, who played
a major part in the politics of the reign of Charles II.

Social mobility was one of the secrets of England's success.

JSG

[Frank Bullen]

Can anyone comment on the relationship between The Clerks, Warehousemen & Drapers (Guild/Society, what have you) and any possible link to the Guild of Drapers? My wife's father was a member of the CW&D, and, as a consequence, she went as a boarder (at the age of six) after her father's early and unexpected death. From all accounts, Dotheboys Hall, of Charles Dickens, sounds like a rest camp by comparison.

Frank

[Gjest]

Please check out Thomas Nevett on my website at:
http://home.comcast.net/~rexjhotchkiss/

His daughter Margaret Nevett married John Hotchkiss of Whitechurch. For
more fun check out the Benyon line.

Steven Perkins wrote:

John Insly Coddington wrote an article in the Connecticut Nutmegger
where he stated that the Hotchkiss family of New Haven Colony was

descended from John Hotchkiss and Margaret Nevett of Dodington,
Whitchurch Parish, Shropshire, England. He also said that the family
was related to the Barons Cotton. I have tried to find the connection
by looking at the references in the article, but I have been unable to
do so. Has anyone investigated this connection of either the Hotchkiss
or Nevett families to the Barons Cotton? Does anyone know if the
Coddington papers at NEHGS are available for research?

Thanks,

Steven C. Perkins
[email protected]
http://www.rci.rutgers.edu/~sperkins/genealogy.html

[Steven C. Perkins]

Hello:

Thanks for your message. My current contact email is
[email protected] and my web pages are at
http://freepages.genealogy.rootsweb.com/~sperkins/

Since the time when I wrote the quoted message, I have looked at the
Coddington mss at NEHGS and developed the descent line on the Perkins
pages above. I'd like to discuss this line with you directly.

According to some research, the Constantine connection leads to the Lucy
family and Henry II.

Regards,

Steven C. Perkins



On 1 Jan 2005 at 4:32, [email protected] wrote:

Date forwarded: Sat, 01 Jan 2005 05:41:37 -0700
Date sent: Sat, 01 Jan 2005 04:32:08 -0800
Forwarded by: [email protected]
From: [email protected]
Subject: Re: Hotchkiss family of Dodington, Whitchurch Parish, Shropshire,
Eng 1500s and the Cottons
To: [email protected]
Organization: http://groups.google.com

Please check out Thomas Nevett on my website at:
http://home.comcast.net/~rexjhotchkiss/

His daughter Margaret Nevett married John Hotchkiss of Whitechurch. For
more fun check out the Benyon line.

Steven Perkins wrote:
John Insly Coddington wrote an article in the Connecticut Nutmegger
where he stated that the Hotchkiss family of New Haven Colony was
descended from John Hotchkiss and Margaret Nevett of Dodington,
Whitchurch Parish, Shropshire, England. He also said that the family was
related to the Barons Cotton. I have tried to find the connection by
looking at the references in the article, but I have been unable to do so.
Has anyone investigated this connection of either the Hotchkiss or Nevett
families to the Barons Cotton? Does anyone know if the Coddington papers
at NEHGS are available for research? > > Thanks, > > Steven C. Perkins
[email protected]
http://www.rci.rutgers.edu/~sperkins/genealogy.html

[Douglas Richardson royala]

Dear Newsgroup ~

Sometime ago, I posted evidence which indicated that Margery, wife of
Stephen le Scrope, was the daughter of John de Welles, 4th Lord Welles,
by his wife, Maud de Roos (see copy of my earlier post below). The
evidence I collected at that time including heraldic, visitation, and
probate citations.

In the intervening time, I posted a citation in which King Henry V of
England referred Margery Welles' son, Henry le Scrope, 3rd Lord Scrope
of Masham, as his "kinsman" in 1414 [Reference: T. Rymer, Foedera, 9
(1727): 102 ("Consanguinei nostri carissimi")]. King Henry V of
England and Henry le Scrope were related in the 4th and 4th degrees of
kinship (that is 3rd cousins), by virtue of common descent from
Bartholomew de Badlesmere, Knt., 1st Lord Badlesmere (died 1322). On
Henry le Scrope's side, the Badlesmere connection comes through his
mother, Margery Welles.

In more recent time, I've located a description of the seal of Lady
Margery le Scrope of Masham dated 1417/18. The seal displays a
shield-shaped panel with cusps and curved sides, surrounded by oak
springs and hung from a hook, a shield of arms: a bend, on a diapered
field [SCROPE], impaling a lion rampant, queue fourchy [WELLES].
[Reference: Ellis, Cat. of Seals in the P.R.O. 2 (1981): 95].

This seal shows Scrope impaling Welles, which is further confirmation
that Lady Margery le Scrope was a Welles. A list of the numerous
colonial immigrants who descend from Lady Scrope can be found below in
my earlier post. For further information on Margery Welles' descent
from Bartholomew de Badlesmere, see my forthcoming book, Magna Carta
Ancestry, scheduled for publication in June 2005.

Best always, Douglas Richardson, Salt Lake City, Utah

Website: http://www.royalancestry.net

+ + + + + + + + + + + + +
COPY OF EARLIER POST:

Douglas Richardson Jun 21 2002, 5:37 pm show options
Newsgroups: soc.genealogy.medieval
From: [email protected] (Douglas Richardson) - Find messages by
this author
Date: 21 Jun 2002 17:37:49 -0700
Subject: Margery Welles, wife of Stephen le Scrope, 2nd Lord Scrope of
Masham

Dear Newsgroup ~

In the process of preparing my post yesterday regarding the identity
of Maud, wife of Baldwin Freville IV as daughter of Stephen le Scrope,
2nd Lord Scrope of Masham (died 1406), I noticed that editor of
Complete Peerage sub Scrope [vol. 11 (1949), pg. 564] and Huntingfield
[vol. 6 (1926), pg. 670] was somewhat unsure of the parentage of
Stephen le Scrope's wife, Margery. Under Scrope, the editor of C.P.
states Margery was "probably a daughter of John (de Welles), [4th]
Lord Welles, by Maud, daughter of William (de Ros), Lord Ros." Under
Huntingfield, the editor of C.P. says Margery "is stated to have been
a da. of John (de Welles), Lord Welles." That Margery, wife of
Stephen le Scrope, was definitely Lord Welles' daughter is made clear
by several pieces of evidence which are discussed below:

(lst) In the parish of South Kilvington, co. York, there is a font
donated by the Scrope family which has heraldic shields in nine
compartments which display the arms of Scrope and its allied families.
The seventh shield in this memorial has the arms of Scrope impaling
the arms of Welles, i.e., or a lion rampant sable, with two tails
[Reference: Yorkshire Archaeological Journal, 22 (1913): 226-230].
This is evidence that there was an intermarriage between the families
of Scrope of Masham and Welles.

(2nd) In Stephen le Scrope's will dated 7 Jan. 1405/6, he includes a
bequest to Lord Welles "j ciphum deauratum" [Reference: Testamenta
Eboracensia, vol. 3 (Surtees Soc., vol. 45) (1864): 31-37].

(3rd) In the 1563/4 Visitation of Yorkshire [Harleian Soc. Publ., vol.
16 (1881): 279], there is a pedigree of the Scrope family which
states:

"Steven Lord Scrope of Upsall = ... doughter of the Lord Welles."

(4th) In the 1415 will of Stephen and Margery le Scrope's son, Henry
le Scrope, 3rd Lord Scrope of Masham, he left two bequests as follows:

"Item, lego avunculo meo Domino de Welle unum par de pater noster de
auro cum gaudiis de curallo, & i. firmaculum de auro, pro
remembrancia."

"Item, Alianore Seint John, consanguineae meae, i. parvum nouche de
auro, pro remembrancia."

We find here that Sir Henry le Scrope specifically refers to John de
Welles, 5th Lord Welles (died 1421), as his "uncle," and refers to
Lord Welles' daughter, Eleanor Saint John, as his "kinswoman."

[Reference for will of Henry le Scrope: Sir N. Harris Nicolas, The
Controversy between Sir Richard Scrope and Sir Robert Grosvenor, 2
(1832): 142-147]

The cumulative weight of the heraldic, visitation and probate evidence
makes it clear that Stephen le Scrope's wife, Margery, was in fact the
daughter of John de Welles, 4th Lord Welles (died 1361), by his wife,
Maud de Ros.

For interest sake, I have listed below the colonial immigrants who are
descended from Stephen le Scrope, and his wife, Margery de Welles.
The individual descents down to the immigrants will be found in the
forthcoming books, Plantagenet Ancestry and Magna Carta Ancestry.

Best always, Douglas Richardson, Salt Lake City, Utah

- - - - - - - -

List of Colonial immigrants who descend from Stephen le Scrope, 2nd
Lord Scrope of Masham, and his wife, Margery de Welles:

l. Dannett Abney.

2. Richard & William Bernard.

3. Nathaniel Browne.

4. Charles Calvert.

5. Edward Carleton (two descents).

6. Grace Chetwode.

7. Jeremy Clarke (two descents).

8. Henry Corbin.

9. John Davenport.

10. Gerard Fowke.

11. Katherine Hamby.

12. Mary Launce.

13. Henry, Jane, & Nicholas Lowe.

14. Anne Mauleverer.

15. Philip & Thomas Nelson.
16. Thomas Owsley.

17. Maria Johanna Somerset.

18. Olive Welby.

[Rick Eaton]

I recall, from some searching some time ago, a connection between the
Davenports (Read the Rev. John Davenport of Chesire) and the Cottons. Try a
Google search for same. There was also an Eyton (Eyton on the Weald Moors,
Shropshire) marriage: one Fortuna Cotton married Willaim Eyton in 1552. This
was recorded in the church windows (via armorial bearings) in Eyton Church,
a chapel at Eyton on the Weald Moors. Sorry that I can't be more helpful. E>
Please check out Thomas Nevett on my website at:

http://home.comcast.net/~rexjhotchkiss/

His daughter Margaret Nevett married John Hotchkiss of Whitechurch. For
more fun check out the Benyon line.

Steven Perkins wrote:
John Insly Coddington wrote an article in the Connecticut Nutmegger
where he stated that the Hotchkiss family of New Haven Colony was
descended from John Hotchkiss and Margaret Nevett of Dodington,
Whitchurch Parish, Shropshire, England. He also said that the family
was related to the Barons Cotton. I have tried to find the connection
by looking at the references in the article, but I have been unable to
do so. Has anyone investigated this connection of either the Hotchkiss
or Nevett families to the Barons Cotton? Does anyone know if the
Coddington papers at NEHGS are available for research?

Thanks,

Steven C. Perkins
[email protected]
http://www.rci.rutgers.edu/~sperkins/genealogy.html

Rick Eaton

[Gjest]

In a message dated 1/2/2005 2:12:44 AM Pacific Standard Time,
[email protected] writes:

Obviously there are some commercial pressures at work, and I don't really
understand the thinking behind some of the restrictions (e.g. printing
material from books is apparently disabled). I get the impression Google
hasn't properly worked out exactly how it will make money out of this
project, so I hope there's scope for things to change.

I really am not sure how they could successfully block printing. Even if
somehow your browser could be "made" to not allow printing, you can still do a
"Screen Print" to an image and then use OCR to parse that image back into words
if you wanted a text document.

[Dewayne E Perry]

Steven C. Perkins wrote:

Hello:

Thanks for your message. My current contact email is
[email protected] and my web pages are at
http://freepages.genealogy.rootsweb.com/~sperkins/

your url does not work - correction?

thnx - dewayne

[Dewayne E Perry]

Steven Perkins wrote:

John Insly Coddington wrote an article in the Connecticut Nutmegger

where he stated that the Hotchkiss family of New Haven Colony was
descended from John Hotchkiss and Margaret Nevett of Dodington,
Whitchurch Parish, Shropshire, England. He also said that the family
was related to the Barons Cotton. I have tried to find the connection
by looking at the references in the article, but I have been unable to
do so. Has anyone investigated this connection of either the Hotchkiss
or Nevett families to the Barons Cotton? Does anyone know if the
Coddington papers at NEHGS are available for research?

see Nellie Cowdell. The Hotchkiss Family. First Six Generations.
Descendehants of Samuel Hotchkiss (c1622-1663) of New haven,
Connecticut. Volume 1. Baltimore: Gate press, 1985

there cowdell states that john hotchkiss was proabably the son of
allan and allan married mary cotton and had children john, richard and
george.

see http://www.ece.utexas.edu/~perry/fun/ge ... hkiss.html
for what i have - it is very sketchy but may provide some clues. i have
nothing further on this cotton line.

cheers - dewayne
http://www.ece.utexas.edu/~perry/fun/genealogy/

[Steven C. Perkins]

Dewayne:

Correct URL:

http://freepages.genealogy.rootsweb.com/~scperkins/

I have Nellie Cowdell's book. The link between Allan and John has not
been proven with any documentary evidence. I believe the link was
proposed in the early 1900s. Coddington was not aware of it when he
started his research. But once he learned of it and started to research
it, he could not find any evidence to support it.

If you go to my web pages and select the link for Henry Franklin Perkins,
you will find the alternate link I am working on. You can find the link
through Allan Hotchkiss by following the link on my page for Jabez
Perkins.

Regards,

Steven C. Perkins



On 4 Jan 2005 at 0:44, Dewayne E Perry wrote:

Date forwarded: Mon, 03 Jan 2005 17:57:23 -0700
Date sent: Tue, 04 Jan 2005 00:44:32 +0000 (GMT)
Forwarded by: [email protected]
From: Dewayne E Perry <[email protected]>
Subject: Re: Hotchkiss family of Dodington, Whitchurch Parish, Shropshire,
Eng 1500s and the Cottons
To: [email protected]
Organization: SBC http://yahoo.sbc.com

Steven Perkins wrote:

John Insly Coddington wrote an article in the Connecticut Nutmegger

where he stated that the Hotchkiss family of New Haven Colony was
descended from John Hotchkiss and Margaret Nevett of Dodington,
Whitchurch Parish, Shropshire, England. He also said that the family
was related to the Barons Cotton. I have tried to find the connection
by looking at the references in the article, but I have been unable to
do so. Has anyone investigated this connection of either the Hotchkiss
or Nevett families to the Barons Cotton? Does anyone know if the
Coddington papers at NEHGS are available for research?


see Nellie Cowdell. The Hotchkiss Family. First Six Generations.
Descendants of Samuel Hotchkiss (c1622-1663) of New haven,
Connecticut. Volume 1. Baltimore: Gate press, 1985

there cowdell states that john hotchkiss was probably the son of
allan and allan married mary cotton and had children john, richard and
george.

see http://www.ece.utexas.edu/~perry/fun/ge ... hkiss.html
for what i have - it is very sketchy but may provide some clues. i have
nothing further on this cotton line.

cheers - dewayne
http://www.ece.utexas.edu/~perry/fun/genealogy/

[Markus Welschhoff]

Dear Leo!

For more biographical details, take a look at this page:

Umberto III: http://www.genealogie-mittelalter.de/sa ... _1188.html

Thomas I: http://www.genealogie-mittelalter.de/sa ... _1233.html

Beatrice de Savoy: http://www.genealogie-mittelalter.de/sa ... _1266.html

Very interesting with a lot of informations is the mainpage: http://www.genealogie-mittelalter.de

Bye, Markus.
__________________________________________________________
Mit WEB.DE FreePhone mit hoechster Qualitaet ab 0 Ct./Min.
weltweit telefonieren! http://freephone.web.de/?mc=021201

[Gjest]

Dear Newsgroup,
Has Anyone seen the full IPM of 1477 for Sir Robert
Waterton ? While it is of interest that He left properties to Eleanor,
Cecily , Margaret and Katherine, the daughters of his sister `Cecilia` (sic), Lady
Welles, it should also mention either Agnes Poucher or her daughter Joan
(probably Soothill by that date) if He were in fact the son of Joan Everingham as
He would have been lord of the manor of Everingham in succession to half
brother Robert Ellis unless of course the said Robert Ellis survived him. If
However He did not, then Everingham would have gone to Agnes or her children at that
time. If They aren`t mentioned in Sir Robert Waterton`s IPM then it follows
He wasn`t the son of Joan Everingham.
Sincerely,
James W Cummings
Dixmont, Maine USA

[Gjest]

Again the lack of sources make this "work" worthless.

[Brian]

There is a slight connection between Sickert and the royal family but
if Walter was the Ripper it was because he had his own agenda. What I
find most intriging is that some of his drawings appear to be very
similar to some artwork that was sent to the police at the time.

We really have to rule out the "royal Conspiracy" Prince Eddy was in
France for 2 of the murders. And Sir William Gull has been made a
suspect from a television stand point.

Any true Ripper enthusiest must also pay close attention to James
Maybrick and "The Diary" There has been much mentioned as of late and
the diary itself has not been easily cast aside. The tests on the
diary have been inconclusive so there's still hope. Check out the
crime scene photo of Mary Kelly. Look at the wall on the side of her,
just above her arm. There, written (supposedly) in blood, are the
initials FM. Florence Maybrick, Maybrick's American wife. I'm a
graphic designer and I've done some photographic work. Every photo,
from every book I've seen with the Mary Kelly photo in it has the
initials.

[Tony Hoskins]

Scanning for chronology in this (particularly 15-16th centuries) raises
quite a number of red flags.

Anthony Hoskins
History, Genealogy and Archives Librarian
History and Genealogy Library
Sonoma County Library
3rd and E Streets
Santa Rosa, California 95404

707/545-0831, ext. 562

[Gjest]

Dear Brice,
I respectfully beg to differ. According to a couple of
rootsweb sites, at least one of whom mentioned the CP V article on Everingham
Robert Ellis, who held the Everingham estates 1425 until his death in 1464 in
succession to his stepfather Robert Waterton who had held it by virtue of having
once been wed to Joan Everingham. As there was a marriage wouldn`t such
estates as the Everinghams held have gone to Sir Robert Waterton before They were
allowed to devolve upon the issue of a sister of whatever surname or their
represntative, in this case Sir John Sothill of Drax and Middle Rasen had He been
Joan Everingham`s blood son ?
Sincerely,
James W Cummings
Dixmont, Maine USA

[Matthew Rockefeller]

Royal Conspiracies are amusing, but usually not more than that. The one
that I think has the most truth in it is that of Hannah Lightfoot,
because even a marriage certificate has been found. In fact, I think
two marriage certificates have been found, if memory serves me correct,
which supposedly documented both marriages between George III and
Hannah Lightfoot.

Another one which is intriguing is Charles II and the arguement that
his firstborn son was actually legitimate. Of course the Duke of
Monmouth, the son, and his mother, Lucy Walter, both claimed that the
King was married to her. And one of the dukes of Buccleuch, a
descendant, claimed to have found a marriage certificate between the
two when going through old family documents, but supposedly burned it
thinking it would cause to much trouble if it were exposed.

Matthew

[Gjest]

Thursday, 6 January, 2005


Hello All,

The relationship (or at least the closest one) between King
James III of Scots and Alexander Cunningham, 1st Earl of Glencairn
has been identified as that of 3rd cousins 1x removed. As
indicated in the first post in this thread, the relationship is
based on a common descent - alluded to in a dispensation of July
1409 - from an ancestor (or ancestors), grandparent(s) of Margaret
Danielstoun and great-grandparent(s) of Lady Mary Stewart, widow
of James Kennedy of Dunure.

Identifying the exact ancestry involved in this relationship
is somewhat problematic, despite the few generations involved as
given in the 1409 dispensation. Margaret Danielstoun's mother has
not been identified to date; her father was Sir Robert (de)
Danielstoun, of Finlaystoun, Glencairn, Kilmarnock & c. (d. 1397).
His parents were Sir John de Danielstoun (d. aft 1378) and a
daughter of Sir Malcolm Fleming, 1st Earl of Wigtown (d. aft
1357). Given what is known of the Stewart ancestry, leaving alone
an apocryphal claim of a Danielstoun connection in the ancestry of
Elizabeth Mure, there appears to be a relationship most likely
through the unidentified wife of Sir Robert de Danielstoun.

The Stewart ancestry provides the most likely avenue for
resolving this question. The relationship indicated in the 1409
dispensation appears to require that the mother of Margaret
Danielstoun was a sister, or half-sister, of one of the following:

1. Robert II, King of Scots (d. 1390)

2. Elizabeth Mure, wife of King Robert II

3. Sir John de Drummond, of Cargill and Stobhall (de jure
uxoris), d. aft May 1360

4. Mary de Montfichet, co-heiress of her father

Concerning King Robert II (#1), we know he had no surviving
siblings. The son of Walter the Stewart (d. 1326) by Lady (or
Princess) Marjory, daughter of King Robert I, _the Bruce_, he had
several half-siblings, children of his father's 2nd marriage to
Isabel Graham. Of these, only one daughter is known: Egidia
Stewart, wife of (1st)Sir James Lindsay, (2nd) Sir Hugh Eglinton,
and (3rd - as 2nd wife) Sir James Douglas of Dalkeith.

Elizabeth Mure's (#2) ancestry is the subject of much legend
and some conjecture, beyond her parents, Adam Mure and Jane/Joan
Cunningham. No other sibling of Elizabeth is known. It does not
appear that a sister of Elizabeth is a good candidate for the
mother of Margaret Danielstoun: if the identification of Jane/Joan
Cunningham lately put forward is correct (as a great-aunt of Sir
William Cunningham [1]), Sir William Cunningham and Margaret
Danielstoun would themselves have been related in the 3rd degree
(i.e., as 2nd cousins), a relationship for which we have no
evidence. The lack of a dispensation (requested or granted) does
not disprove such a relationship, but it does make it appear less
likely.

A Montfichet relationship for Margaret Danielstoun's mother
also appears unlikely. From memory, Mary de Montfichet (#4) and
her husband Sir John Drummond were given the lands of her father
by King David II out of favoritism (he himself married Sir John's
sister Margaret, but whether before or after disposing of the
Montfichet inheritance I don't recall). Her two sisters fled to
England seeking redress, which was not forthcoming: what lands
were not given to Sir John Drummond and Mary de Montfichet were
(allegedly) given to one Hugh de Danielstoun, a cousin or near
kinsman of Sir Robert, and to the Napiers. Give Sir Robert de
Danielstoun's favored position under King David II [2], he would
not have lost his wife's inheritance if she had a claim to the
Montfichet lands.

The most likely source of the relationship appears to lie with
the Drummond family. Margaret Danielstoun herself was likely born
say 1364 or later (her husband Sir William Cunningham was born say
1360-1364), which works with the known chronology for Sir John
Drummond and his siblings:

1. Maurice Drummond, Sir John's brother, was coroner of the
earldom of Lennox. 'Mauricio de Dromunth' had a grant
from Robert Stewart, earl of Strathearn (later King Robert
II) of the lands of Drummond and 'Tulychravin', ca. 1362,
witnessed by John Stewart (his brother), Walter Oliphant,
Hugh de Eglinton and others [Red Book of Menteith
II:249-50, no. 32].

2. Margaret Drummond, sister of Sir John and Maurice, was
married 1stly to Sir John Logie, and 2ndly ca. 20 Feb
1363/4 to King David II of Scots. They were subsequently
divorced ca. 20 March 1368/9.

For a sister of the Drummonds (presumably a full sister) to
have married Sir Robert de Danielstoun, known to be favoured by
King David II (as were the Drummonds) during the period say
1355-1365 would not be surprising. This would further work with
Margaret Danielstoun's theorized birthdate (or range) of say
1363-1368. While weak, what onomastic evidence is known would
also support this, with Margaret Danielstoun being the likely
namesake of her maternal aunt Margaret Drummond, one-time queen
of King David II.

I therefore conjecture that the relationship discussed
is to be found in the Drummond family, to-wit:

[NOTE: the following chart is conjectural only]


Sir Malcolm de Drummond
d. ca. 1348
___________________________I_________ _ _ _ _ _ _
I I I I
Sir John = Mary de Maurice MARGARET NN Drummond
Drummond I Montfichet Drummond = 2) King = Sir Robert
I David II Danielstoun
I__________ I
I I
Robert III = Annabela I
1390-1406 I Drummond I
__________I_____ I
I I I
James I Mary ~~ Sir William = Margaret
1406-1437 Cunningham I Danielstoun
I d. aft 7 Aug 1413 I
I I
James II Sir Robert Cunningham
1437-1460 d. bef 20 Mar 1450/1
I I
I I
JAMES III ALEXANDER CUNNINGHAM
1460-1488 1st Earl of Glencairn


Comments, criticism and additional documentation is welcome,
as always.

Cheers,

John *



NOTES

[1] see J. Ravilious, <'His sister's nephew' - James the Steward,
and Cunningham of Kilmaurs>, SGM, 18 December 2004.

[2] As a young man, Sir Robert de Danielstoun was named as one of
the hostages for King David II (13 July 1354), and on 3
October 1357 he was delivered as a hostage [Bain, Cal. Docs.
Scot. iii. 288, 434; also Foedera iii.281]. In the latter
part of King David's reign he was a commissioner for the peace
with England (ca. 1370), and keeper of Dumbarton Castle until
his own death in 1397.


* John P. Ravilious

[Allen Meyer]

This is a multi-part message in MIME format.
--------------8BF39E1064C9585519A2BB32
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

Doug McDonald is quite incorrect in asserting that experimental design in
complex (social and life) sciences is politically determined, compared with the
simple (physical) sciences. As one trained in both the physical and social
sciences, I can state categorically that experimental design and methodology
(which I have taught) are of far greater concern and more rigorously
scrutinized by social scientists. The bias against the complex sciences is one
I grew up with in early physical science training but have later learned is
misplaced. It is seldom recognized how sloppy experimental design can often be
in the simple sciences. It is also often seldom recognized how much the
results in the simple sciences have been subjected to biased interpretation,
cold fusion being a good case in point.

What is "political" in both the simple and complex sciences is that the
interpretation of results can be seriously abused. A good case is the Bush
administration's persistent resistance to the clear evidence of global warming,
entirely motivated by profit motivations of short-sighted businesspeople. (As
a sidebar, climatology is more like the complex sciences in many ways due to
the multitude of variables interacting so complexly.)

Allen Meyer


--------------8BF39E1064C9585519A2BB32
Content-Type: text/x-vcard; charset=us-ascii;
name="ameyer.vcf"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Content-Description: Card for Allen Meyer
Content-Disposition: attachment;
filename="ameyer.vcf"

begin:vcard
n:Meyer;Allen
tel;work:480-461-7060
x-mozilla-html:FALSE
adr:;;;;;;
version:2.1
email;internet:[email protected]
fn:Allen Meyer
end:vcard

--------------8BF39E1064C9585519A2BB32--

[Doug McDonald]

Allen Meyer wrote:

This is a multi-part message in MIME format.
--------------8BF39E1064C9585519A2BB32
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

Doug McDonald is quite incorrect in asserting that experimental design in
complex (social and life) sciences is politically determined, compared with the
simple (physical) sciences. As one trained in both the physical and social
sciences, I can state categorically that experimental design and methodology
(which I have taught) are of far greater concern and more rigorously
scrutinized by social scientists. The bias against the complex sciences is one
I grew up with in early physical science training but have later learned is
misplaced. It is seldom recognized how sloppy experimental design can often be
in the simple sciences. It is also often seldom recognized how much the
results in the simple sciences have been subjected to biased interpretation,
cold fusion being a good case in point.

What is "political" in both the simple and complex sciences is that the
interpretation of results can be seriously abused. A good case is the Bush
administration's persistent resistance to the clear evidence of global warming,
entirely motivated by profit motivations of short-sighted businesspeople. (As
a sidebar, climatology is more like the complex sciences in many ways due to
the multitude of variables interacting so complexly.)

There is indeed evidence for global warming, from temperature
measurements. A very small amount of global warming, on
an exceedingly short time scale. I am a "hard" scientist,
and have sat on PhD finals panels for people in Atmospheric
Sciences, both of whom were doing simulations. They were so
bad that I had to be seriously arm twisted to agree to
pass them. One, on ozone depletion, was a huge simulation
on flow and reactions of oxygen and chlorine species. The
admittedly most critical parameter was the input concentration
of chlorine nitrate. HOWEVER, there was no simulation
whatsoever of nityrogen, in any form, be it N2, ammonia,
or nitrogen oxides. The Chlorine Nitrate was just stuffed
in "from measurements". This is just plain invalid. It's the
kind of thing that Social Scientists do. The other
simulation was in global warming and rainfall ... but it was
three-dimensional in name only: there were only two altitude
zones and they unfortunately ran into mountain ranges,
so there was no flow over the mountains except in one zone!

The social science papers I have read typically suffer from
abysmal experiment design: the most common error is
including people only in one age or sex range, or even more
restrictive things. To be a valid study, at least for
adults, which we admit can be done separately from children,
one basically needs to either take a large number of people at
random, or an even larger number in bins. And even more important,
it is necessary to recognize that the experiment design may
need to be changed midstream. This latter is of
course the normal course in the "hard" sciences. Certainly
in my own hard science work this has happened many times,
though admittedly has been mostly in a field were
the "experimental design" is normally very primitive
and straightforward ("try lots of chemicals"). The problem
with the social sciences is that the "experimental design"
usually pre-determines the results.

Doug McDonald

[Doug McDonald]

Doug McDonald wrote:

Allen Meyer wrote:

This is a multi-part message in MIME format.
--------------8BF39E1064C9585519A2BB32
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

Doug McDonald is quite incorrect in asserting that experimental design in
complex (social and life) sciences is politically determined, compared
with the
simple (physical) sciences. As one trained in both the physical and
social
sciences, I can state categorically that experimental design and
methodology
(which I have taught) are of far greater concern and more rigorously
scrutinized by social scientists. The bias against the complex
sciences is one
I grew up with in early physical science training but have later
learned is
misplaced. It is seldom recognized how sloppy experimental design can
often be
in the simple sciences. It is also often seldom recognized how much the
results in the simple sciences have been subjected to biased
interpretation,
cold fusion being a good case in point.

What is "political" in both the simple and complex sciences is that the
interpretation of results can be seriously abused. A good case is the
Bush
administration's persistent resistance to the clear evidence of global
warming,
entirely motivated by profit motivations of short-sighted
businesspeople. (As
a sidebar, climatology is more like the complex sciences in many ways
due to
the multitude of variables interacting so complexly.)


There is indeed evidence for global warming, from temperature
measurements. A very small amount of global warming, on
an exceedingly short time scale. I am a "hard" scientist,
and have sat on PhD finals panels for people in Atmospheric
Sciences, both of whom were doing simulations. They were so
bad that I had to be seriously arm twisted to agree to
pass them. One, on ozone depletion, was a huge simulation
on flow and reactions of oxygen and chlorine species. The
admittedly most critical parameter was the input concentration
of chlorine nitrate. HOWEVER, there was no simulation
whatsoever of nityrogen, in any form, be it N2, ammonia,
or nitrogen oxides. The Chlorine Nitrate was just stuffed
in "from measurements". This is just plain invalid. It's the
kind of thing that Social Scientists do. The other
simulation was in global warming and rainfall ... but it was
three-dimensional in name only: there were only two altitude
zones and they unfortunately ran into mountain ranges,
so there was no flow over the mountains except in one zone!

The social science papers I have read typically suffer from
abysmal experiment design: the most common error is
including people only in one age or sex range, or even more
restrictive things. To be a valid study, at least for
adults, which we admit can be done separately from children,
one basically needs to either take a large number of people at
random, or an even larger number in bins. And even more important,
it is necessary to recognize that the experiment design may
need to be changed midstream. This latter is of
course the normal course in the "hard" sciences. Certainly
in my own hard science work this has happened many times,
though admittedly has been mostly in a field were
the "experimental design" is normally very primitive
and straightforward ("try lots of chemicals"). The problem
with the social sciences is that the "experimental design"
usually pre-determines the results.

Doug McDonald

This was not intended to be posted to s.g.m.

Sorry.

Doug McDonald

[Gjest]

Sunday, 9 January, 2005


Dear Kevan, et al.,

In recently working on the Bosvile and related families, I noted the
following portion of the Hastings pedigree concerning the descendants of Sir
Brian Hastings of Fenwick, co. Yorks. [1]:


Sir Bryan Hastynges 5 son. He maryed to his = Anne doughter to Thomas
2 wyff Elsabeth doughter of John Leke of I Portyngton of Barnby
Sutton in the Dale. I upon Downe.
____________________________________________I________________
I I I I I
Sir Frauncis Hastynges Mary wyff to Doraty Hastynges Crystyan
Hastynges
Knight maryed Jane Phelyp Copley. wyff to . . . wyff to
Frauncis
doughter of Edward ___ St. Quyntyne. Frobysher of
Rastwold. [Had issue = Doncaster. =
Jane, says a later Anne wyff to John I I
hand.] Wentworth. I I
_______________________________________I I
I ________________________I
I I
Gabriell St. Quyntyne maryed doughter William Frobesher weded the
syster
of Sir George Gryffyth Knight. to Thomas Boynton of Yorkshyre.


The inclination of the heralds to ignore individuals unimportant to
their immediate task (e.g., daughters, esp. unmarried ones) is a frequent
problem, but a corroborative review of the Boynton pedigree finds William
Frobisher's brother-in-law Thomas Boynton of Barmston married to ' Fraunces
doughter to Frauncis Frobysher of Doncaster.' [2] This information is
extremely valuable as it was contemporaneous: the issue of Thomas Boynton
and Frances Frobisher at the date of the Visitation was their son Francis
(later Sir Francis Boynton) and their daughter Anne (later wife of Sir
Francis Vaughan).

This appears to be a pair of brother-sister marriages; moreover, it
also provides a descent for the Boyntons of Barmston (and your ancestor
Griffith Nelthorpe) from the family of Hastings of Elsing, as follows
below.

Hope this is of use.

Cheers,

John *



NOTES (to post):

[1] HSP 16:156 (pedigree of Hastynges, Vis. of Yorkshire, 1563, 1564).

[2] Ibid., 16:84 (pedigree of Boynton).

______________________________________________________________________


1 Sir Brian Hastings
----------------------------------------
Death: aft 4 Oct 1542[1]
Father: Sir Hugh Hastings of Elsing and Gressenhall(-1488)
Mother: Anne Gascoigne

Knt., of Fenwick, co. Yorks.

Genealogics I00425536[2]

' Sir Bryan Hastynges 5 son. He maryed to his 2 wyfe Elsabeth doughter of
John Leke of Sutton in the Dale. = Anne doughter to Thomas Portyngton of
Barnby upon Downe.' [HSP 16:156, pedigree of Hastynges[3]]

' Bill of acknowledgement by Bryan Hastynge Esq that his brother Sir George
Hastynges Kt and Johanna his wife are lawfully married and their children
born in lawful wedlock. 1 June 11 Hen VIII (1519) ' - A2A, Norfolk Record
Office: Hastings Family of Gressenhall [ MR 348 242 x 5 ][1]

Grant dated 2 Jan. 26 Hen. VIII (1535):
' 1) Brian Haistynges, kt., Thos. Derman, John Heton
and John Robynson.
2) John Coke.
(1) to (2) a messuage and 20a. in Wodhouse in Kirk Bramwith and
Fisshlake which they had from Roger Moide, s. and h. of John Moide. '
- A2A, Nottinghamshire Archives: Foljambe of Osberton: Deeds and Estate
Papers [DD/FJ/1/196 - DD/FJ/1/298], YORKS: BRAMWITH AND BRAITHWAITE;
also Fishlake: DD/FJ/1/204/22[1]

Spouse: Anne Portington

Children: Sir Francis
Mary
Anne
Dorothy
Christian


1.1 Christian Hastings
----------------------------------------

'Crystyan Hastynges wyff to Frauncis Frobysher of Doncaster.'
[HSP 16:156, pedigree of Hastynges[3]]

Spouse: Francis Frobisher, Esq. of Doncaster, co. Yorks.

Children: William Frobisher, m. NN Boynton
Frances


1.1.1 Frances Frobisher
----------------------------------------

' Fraunces doughter to Frauncis Frobysher of Doncaster.'
[HSP 16:84, pedigree of Boynton[3]]

re: her husband:
Thomas Boynton, of Barmston in Holderness, co. Yorks.

Defeazance dated 27 Sep 1574:
' By Thomas Boynton of Barmeston, esq., Fraunces Wicliffe and Robert
Place, gents., concerning a bond entered into by William Vavasour of
Weston in respect of the marriage settlement of his son Mayor and Elynor
Foster. (I) ' - A2A, West Yorkshire Archive Service, Leeds: Weston Hall
Records, WYL639/306[1]

Spouse: Thomas Boynton, of Barmston in Holderness, co. Yorks.
Father: Sir Matthew Boynton (-1541)
Mother: Anne Bulmer

Children: Sir Francis (-1617)
Anne


1.1.1.1 Sir Francis Boynton
----------------------------------------
Death: 9 Apr 1617[4]

of Barmston in Holderness, co. Yorks.

'Frauncis.' [HSP 16:84, pedigree of Boynton[3]]

record of a Lease for 21 years at £6.10s. rent, dated 14 Apr. 1597:
' Francis Boynton of Barmstone esq. to William Wattson "of the Watter
Mylne in the sayd countye" yeoman property house, water mill and Water
Mylne Close in Barmstone' - A2A, East Riding of Yorkshire Archives and
Records Service: Chichester-Constable Family [DDCC/1 - DDCC/50],
DDCC/3/26[1]

Assignment dated 23 Jan. 1589/90:
' Roger Rante and Peter Whetcombe of London gents. to Francis
Boynton of Barmeston esq. property messuage and 2 bovates late in
tenure of Margaret Boynton widow and parcel of Nunkeeling Priory
Recites a grant to them by Letters Patent (22 Jan. 1589/90).' - A2A,
East Riding of Yorkshire Archives and Records Service:
Chichester-Constable Family [DDCC/1 - DDCC/50], DDCC/3/27[1]

' Sir F Boynton Knt ', instituted Martin Briggs M.A. as rector of
Barmston, 1612[5]

Spouse: Dorothy Place

Children: Sir Matthew (1591-<1646)
Alice
Henry
Dorothy


1.1.1.1.1 Sir Matthew Boynton
----------------------------------------
Birth: 26 Jan 1591[6]
Death: bef 12 Mar 1646[6]

knt., of Barmston in Holderness, co. Yorks.
1st Baronet

Mandate dated 6 Oct. 1626:
' George, Duke of Buckingham, Lord High Admiral, to Sir Matthew
Boynton of Barmeston and Henry Griffith of Agnes Burton esq. Relating
to relating to enquire into, recover and report on wrecks and goods
taken from them on the coast near Barmeston. ' - A2A, East Riding of
Yorkshire Archives and Records Service: Chichester-Constable Family
[DDCC/1 - DDCC/50], DDCC/3/28[1]

Copy of an Acknowledgement by Sir Matthew Boynton, dated c.1627:
' That wreck of the sea in the manor of Barmston belonged to
Lord Dunbar as seigneur of Holderness, further to an award by
Rowland Wandesford and William Dalton. With memorandum that the
award gave flotsam and jetsam in the manor to Sir M.B. as lord of
Barmston; that he held 8 carucates demesne land in Barmston, 5
carucates in Righton, 4 carucates in Cathroppe and 4½ carucates in
Boynton, in knight's service of the manor of Burstwick; and that
Lord Dunbar challenged the right to gatelaw in Barmston and Winton
but it was awarded to Sir M.B. on the grounds that exception to it
granted by DDCC/3/22 implied its existence.' - A2A, East Riding of
Yorkshire Archives and Records Service: Chichester-Constable Family
[DDCC/1 - DDCC/50], DDCC/3/29[1]

NOTE: the lands recited above in Sir Matthew's tenure are the same
as allocated to his ancestress Lady Margaret (de la See) Boynton,
3 Mar 1496/7:
' Dame Margaret to have manors of Barnston and Wynkton and all
property of Sir Martin there and in Righton, Boynton and Carethorp,
to use of her and heirs of her body ....' - A2A, East Riding of
Yorkshire Archives and Records Service: Chichester-Constable Family
[DDCC/1 - DDCC/50], DDCC/3/22[1]

' Assigns of Sir Matthew Boynton 1st Bart ', instituted Robert
Ridson M.A. as rector of Barmston, 1638[5]

Spouse: Frances Griffith
Father: Sir Henry Griffith

Children: Sir Francis (1618-1695)
Henry
Matthew


1.1.1.1.1.1 Sir Francis Boynton
----------------------------------------
Birth: 31 Aug 1618
Death: 9 Sep 1695[6]

knt., of Barmeston in Holderness, co. Yorks.
2nd Baronet

GENEALOGICS # I00372236[2]

' Sir Franc Boynton 2nd Bart ', instituted Henry Boynton. A.M. as
rector of Barmston, 1670[5]

Spouse: Constance Fiennes
Marr: 7 Mar 1637[6]

Children: Frances (1653-<1682)


1.1.1.1.1.1.1 Frances Boynton
----------------------------------------
Birth: 3 Mar 1653[2]
Death: bef 7 May 1682[2]

her parentage, and identification of Frances (Whichcote) Nelthorpe
as her daughter, confirmed by MI of Frances Nelthorpe in Scawby,
Lincolnshire :
"Mrs. Frances NELTHORPE, wife of Mr. James NELTHORPE, died
31 Mar 1720, daughter of George WHICHCOT, Esqr., by Frances his wife,
daughter of Sir Francis BOYNTON of Barmston in Yorkshire, Bart."[7]

Spouse: George Whichcote
Marr: 4 Dec 1677[2]

Children: Frances (-1720)


1.1.1.1.1.1.1.1 Frances Whichcote
----------------------------------------
Death: 31 Mar 1720[7]

MI of Frances Nelthorpe in Scawby, Lincolnshire :
"Mrs. Frances NELTHORPE, wife of Mr. James NELTHORPE, died
31 Mar 1720, daughter of George WHICHCOT, Esqr., by Frances his wife,
daughter of Sir Francis BOYNTON of Barmston in Yorkshire, Bart."[7]

Genealogics I00237276 [2]

Spouse: James Nelthorpe

Children: Griffith (-<1755)


1.1.1.1.1.1.1.1.1 Griffith Nelthorpe
----------------------------------------
Death: bef 10 Oct 1755[2]

Genealogics I00237292[2]


1. "Access to Archives," http://www.a2a.pro.gov.uk/
2. "Genealogics," website by Leo van de Pas, http://www.genealogics.com, cites
Europäische Stammtafeln, J.A. Stargardt Verlag Marburg., Detlev
Schwennicke, Editor, [ES], and other sources
3. "The Visitation of Yorkshire," Harleian Soc., William Flower, Esquire,
Norroy King of Arms, Harleian Series, Vol. 16, Mitchell and Hughes,
Printers, London, 1881, pp. 154-156: pedigree of Hastings of Elsing
('Hastynges..' of Fenwick, co. Yorks.), 'The Visitation of Yorkshire
in the Years 1563 and 1564'.
4. "International Genealogical Index," IGI: published through LDS website,
http://www.familysearch.org
5. "Barmston Parish: Barmston Rectors," GENUKI, Yorkshire, East Riding,
Data transcribed by Lucie Hinson,
http://www.genuki.org.uk/big/eng/YKS/ER ... ctors.html
6. "History of the Boynton Arms," extracts re: Boynton of Barmston from
Burke's Peerage and Baronetage, http://www.pluvoy.com/history.html
7. Kevan Barton, "Whichcot of Harpswell/Boynton of Burton Agnes/Markham
Family of Sedgebrooke," 11 Apr 2001, [email protected],
cites MI of Mrs. Frances Nelthorpe, courtesy Jackie Wildgoose.
8. Kevan Barton, "Connection to Clifton/Clifford via Nelthorpe/Whichcot,"
25 Mar 2001, [email protected], cites Maddison's
Lincolnshire Pedigrees.




* John P. Ravilious

[D]

Gustav Montague...what about him?

[Gjest]

I AM ALSO SEARCHING THE PENROSE SURNAME.
http://www.tribalpages.com/tribes/robinp31
thank you
Robin Pruitt Parriman

[Patricia Junkin]

I could not find what you needed concerning the Slyfields. William Bysshe
married curca 1460's a daughter of Thomas Slyfield of Slyfield. He married,
probably, 2nd) Ann Prophete St. Leger, widow of John Elmbrigge. William's
brother, John, married Joan Redynghurst. Thomas Slyfield of Great Bookham
represented Surrey in Parliament in 1451.
I have a bit more.
Pat
----------

From: [email protected]
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: Slyfield of Surrey, England c1387
Date: Tue, Jan 11, 2005, 10:34 AM


I AM ALSO SEARCHING THE PENROSE SURNAME.
http://www.tribalpages.com/tribes/robinp31
thank you
Robin Pruitt Parriman

[Gjest]

Tuesday, 11 January, 2005


Dear David,

I am still in the process of reviewing (actually
re-reviewing) your excellent post, for which you deserve many
thanks (and a lot of rubbing alcohol.....

Dealing with just a few pieces of what you (and WPB) have
provided, it is quite clear that I was misled, as was the editor
of Yorks. Inqs. III, concerning the identity of Edmund le
Botiller. Baildon wrote, as you quoted, that in the third
volume of Yorkshire Inquisitions,

" It is there stated that the Edmund Butler mentioned in
this inquisition was the son of Theobald le Butler, by his
wife Joan, sister and coheir of Richard Fitz John. It is
very confusing to have two Edmund Butlers thus associated
with Skelbrook, but it is quite clear that Edmund, the
tenant, was the son of Robert of Skelbrook, and was no
relation to Edmund son of Theobald, whose mother was one
of the coheirs of the over-lordship. "

So much for my previously suggested CP correction (note to
Chris P.).

Concerning the passage of a moiety of Darrington (spelled
variously, as Darthynton, etc.) to Thomas de la Haye of Spaldington
and his wife Agnes in 1365 or before [1], it is quite probable that as
Baildon suggested, this had passed to one of Agnes' ancestors as the
maritagium of a FitzWilliam wife. Why Baildon did not find any trace
of a reference to Darrington in FitzWilliam hands prior to 1324, I do
not know. I have a reference of a moiety of Darrington being given as
a maritagium by Thomas FitzWilliam, of Emley and Sprotborough (d. aft
25 June 1259) as follows:

Marriage settlement, by grant dated c.1250-1260:
' Thomas Fitzwilliam to Richard Walens.
On marriage of Richard Walens and Albreda, daughter of Thomas
Fitzwilliam.
12 bovates and 10 acres land, with appurtenances, in Darthyngton;
viz. one bovate, 1 rood, which Gregory holds in villeinage: one
bovate, which Robert Dancer holds in villeinage; 1 bovate, 1
acre, 3 roods, which Robert Cohopertor holds in villeinage; 1
bovate which Boyse holds in villeinage; 1 bovate, 2 acres which
Roger, son of Radulph, holds in villeinage; 1 bovate which Roger
Wrafte holds in villeinage; 1 bovate, 3 roods, which Thomas
Dayvill holds in villeinage; 1 bovate, 1 rood, which Roger Fitz
(Austun) holds in villeinage; 1 bovate, which Roger FitzAlduse
holds in villeinage; 1 bovate, 1 rood, which Roger Bacuy holds
in villeinage; 1 bovate which Roger FitzSusanne holds in
villeinage; 1 bovate which Roger Carpenter holds in villeinage;
7 acres, 1 rood, in Oldhallflat, near Rogrand (south).
Land to be held in fee, and villeins are granted with the lands.
Here, one bovate is equal to 15 acres.
Witnesses: Henry Walens, Thomas de Pondington [?Poulington
(Pollington)], William de Biltham [Billham (Bilham)], Robert,
clerk, of Fishlake, William of Awyc, William of Beghate [?Beghale
(Beal near Pontefract)], Henry of Camerill, Hugh of Ouston, clerk.'
[Seal: (i) obverse, equestrian, horse galloping to left, rider in
armour, with helmet, shield and sword in right hand, which is
raised. (ii) reverse, armorial, with shield of arms, 7 lozenges,
and flowers in the field. - - - - FI - - - - - ILL - - -.
Round, 6 cms, green, top 1/5 missing, on a tag. ] [2]


The most likely chronology (not proven) would have Agnes, wife of
Robert le Botiller (#6B in WPD's account) as being identical to Agnes,
daughter of Thomas FitzWilliam [3]. Agnes was married to Robert le
Botiller in 1269 or before, which compares reasonably with the
approximate date given for the marriage of Agnes' sister Albreda
above. Baildon shows that Agnes was widowed, and living in 1296; we
know that Agnes FitzWilliam died before 12 May 1303, at which date
land in Aldwick which she held for life was re-granted by her nephew
Sir William FitzWilliam [4]. There is also onomastic support for this
suggestion, in that Robert le Botiller and his wife Agnes
named their 2nd (known) son Edmund; Sir William FitzWilliam (presumed
brother of the same Agnes) also had a younger son Edmund. This,
together with Robert le Botiller and Agnes having a younger son named
William, makes the above filiation reasonable.

Baildon's placement of Agnes, wife of Edmund le Botiller (#7B), as
a daughter of William de Langethwaite is likewise reasonable, esp.
with Agnes retaining the manor of Langethwaite in 1336 while her son
John received the lands at Skelbrooke, etc. Baildon discussed certain
facts relating to Agnes and her parentage, and surmised that her
mother may have been the Hawise de Langethwaite referred to in 1336
[5]: however, it is more likely that her mother was named Agnes as
Baildon first thought, as Hawise de Langethwaite was evidently the
sister (not wife) of William de Langethwaite, as shown in the
following:

Grant, n.d. [but late thirteenth century]
' William son of Hugh de Langethwayt to Hawisia de Langeth', his
sister. Annual rent of 22s. 2d. issuing from a holding which John
Fox holds of him in Langthwaite, an annual rent of 12s. 2d. issuing
from a bovate which Henry the reeve paused to hold from him in
Langthwaite, an annual rent of 12s. 2d. issuing from a bovate held
by Reginald de Langeth' from him in servile tenure (in bondagio),
an annual rent of 12s. 2d. issuing from a bovate which Richard
Pretifeld holds from him in servile tenure, an annual rent of
11s. 6d. issuing from a bovate which Richard Lauerock holds in
servile tenure, an annual rent of 9s. 10d. from a bovate which
Michael Gamel holds in servile tenure, all in Langthwaite. For
term of her life. Reversion after her death. Witnesses: Sir Adam
de Eueringham, Sir Ralph de Langeth', Henry de Stodefeld, Henry
the clerk, Thomas Payt, William Tyton, Michael son of William
and many others. [6]


Hope this is helpful.

Cheers,

John



NOTES

[1] W. Paley Baildon, "The Butlers of Skelbrook and Kirk
Sandal", Yorkshire Archaeological Journal, vol. 29 (1929),
pp. 68-88, citation courtesy of David Hepworth:

" 1365, Michaelmas - Fine between John Fitz William, knt., and
Elizabeth his wife, plaintiffs, and Thomas del Haye and Agnes his wife,
deforciants, of the fourth part of the manor of Darthynton [Darrington]
near Pontefract; to hold to John and Elizabeth and the heirs of John.
Warranty by Thomas and Agnes for themselves and the heirs of Agnes .


This document implies that Agnes had some interest in her own
right in a quarter of Darrington manor. The early history of
Darrington is very obscure; it is not mentioned in Kirkby's Inquest
or the return of Knights' Fees in 1302-3, while the Nomina Villarum
of 1315-6 merely names it as belonging to Thomas, Earl of Lancaster.
Shortly afterwards it was in the possession of Sir William Fitz
William of Emley and Sprotborough who in 1324 had license to settle
the manors of Emley and Darrington on his eldest surviving son, Sir
John, and failing male heirs of John on his third son Thomas. Sir
John died seised of it in 1349 . His son, another Sir John, was the
purchaser of Agnes de la Hay's fourth part of Darrington, he was
murdered at Howden in 1385. It is possible that one of these Fitz
Williams had settled the fourth part on a daughter, from whom Agnes
inherited it [this last sentence has a marginal query]. "


[2] Access to Archives, A2A, Sheffield Archives: Wentworth Woodhouse
Muniments [WWM/C - WWM/E], WWM/D/4
http://www.a2a.org.uk


[3] HSP 16:123 pedigree of FitzWilliam.


[4] release dated 12 May 1303:
' 1) Wm. Fitzwilliam, kt.
2) Rob. de Raynebergh and wife Alice.
(1) to (2) all lands in Addewyk (1) inherited after death of aunt
Agnes, d. of Thos. Fitzwilliam.
Witn.: John de Donecastre, Rob. Tilly, John de Eland, Ingelram
Folenfaunt, etc.
At Doncaster, Sun. after St. John of Beverley, 31 Edw.I.'
[Armorial seal.]
A2A, Nottinghamshire Archives: Foljambe of Osberton: Deeds and
Estate Papers [DD/FJ/2 - DD/FJ/10], DD/FJ/1/194/20
http://www.a2a.org.uk


[5] Baildon, ibid.:
" This is the latest note I have found relating to Edmund Butler; he
died before 1334, leaving a widow, Agnes and a son John. Agnes was
probably the daughter and heir of William de Langthwaite of
Langthwaite. I think she is the Agnes de Langthwaite returned in the
Nomina Villarum 1315-16, as holding jointly with John de Crumbwell,
but if so it is strange that she should be described by her maiden
name. Possibly the Agnes of 1315-16 was her mother, holding one-third
in dower, though the inquisition of 1336 (below) suggests that her
mother's name was Hawise. "

[6] A2A, A2A, Sheffield Archives: Cooke of Wheatley Muniments,
CWM/131
http://www.a2a.org.uk

[Gjest]

Wednesday, 12 January, 2005


Dear David, et al.,

Following on the posts in this thread, I presently
conjecture the following is an accurate representation of the
le Boteler (or Botiller) of Skelbrooke pedigree, down to and
including the de la Hayes. This is based largely on the
research of W. P. Baildon (provided in your earliest post),
with what added definition has been achieved to date.
Conjectured links are designated (.......).

Looking forward to hearing of your/other thoughts,
comments and criticism.

Cheers,

John *

__________________________________________



__________________________________
I I
<1A> Robert le Botiller <1B> Thomas de Armthorpe
'pincerna' I
________________________________I____
I I
<2A> Alan fitz Thomas <2B> Robert fitz Thomas
d. bef 1203 I
I I
I I
<3A> Hugh le Botiller <3B> John de Armthorpe
<Hugh 'pincerna' of Sandal>
= Avice de Savile
I
___I__________________________________________
I I I I
Richard le <4A> Idonea Denise William le
Botiller Botiller <4B>
<aka Richard de Savile>
d. bef 1267/8
I
_____I_____________
I I
Richard le Robert = Constance Hugh de
Botiller le Botiller I Langthwaite
<5A> <5B> I _____I____
I d. aft 1269 I I I
I ____________I I Hawise
I I I
Hugh le Robert = Agnes William Sir Saer
Botiller le I <possibly de de Sutton
<6A> Botiller I Fitz- Langthwaite d bef Jul
<6B> I William ?> = Agnes 1290
I .......: = Christiane
________________I_________ : ________ I
I I : I I
Robert Edmund = Agnes William Nicholas
<7A> le Botiller I <7C> de Sutton
dsp 1294 b. say 1280 I = Joan
<7B> ; d. I I
bef 4 Jul 1333 I _____________I__
________I___ I I
I I I I
I William <8B> I I
I I I
John le Botiller = Joan de Sutton Elizabeth
<8A> : fl. 1336 <coheir>
d. bef 1347 : <coheir> = John de
: Brayton
...:
:
Thomas de la Haye = Agnes
of Spaldington I <heir>
d. aft 21 Dec 1379 I
I
I
Sir Peter de la Haye
of Spaldington
d. aft 21 Sept 1398
I
I
Thomas de la Haye = 1) Elizabeth
of Spaldington Babthorpe
d. bef 6 Oct 1433 = 2) Janet <mother of Alice>
_____________I_______________________
I I I
Katherine Alice Isabel
= Robert Hildyard = Thomas Thwaites
of Winestead of Thwaites and Denton
I I
V V



* John P. Ravilious

[Denis Beauregard]

On 26 Jan 2004 08:46:40 -0800, [email protected] (jean bunot)
wrote in soc.genealogy.medieval:

I finally intyegrated this line to my database.

[...]

22
Adrien de Méhérenc, seigneur de La Conseillère
m. 1579, Jeanne du Pont

The article in MSGCF said: Elisabeth de Clinchamp and you quote it
as the source. I had the same name in my original reference
from The Genealogist (ACGS) (6) 37-39. Who is Jeanne Du Pont ?

[...]

"Bois (du)" et "Luzerne (la)"; Alain Contant "De Dumont à Bouchard de
Méhérenc" MSGCF (Mémoires de la Société Généalogique Canadienne
Française) vol. 52 no 2. p. 91-93;

Denis

--
0 Denis Beauregard
/\/ http://www.francogene.com
|\ >>Adresse modifiée souvent/email changed frequently<<
/ | Société généalogique canadienne-française
oo oo http://www.sgcf.com

[Gjest]

Indeed. The bio for Lettice is here
http://www.tudorplace.com.ar/Bios/LetticeKnollys.htm

Where you will find that this son died as a child, and he was evidently called "Robert Dudley, Lord Denbigh". Here is the quote:

"They [Lettice and Robert] may have gone through an earlier ceremony, but there was a secret wedding at Wanstead on Sep 21, 1578 which was witnessed by Lettice’s father, Sir Francis Knollys. She appeared to be with child at the time. Their son, Lord Denbigh, who died on Jul 19, 1584, was born in 1579.

"The Noble Impe" - the son of Leicester and Lettice named Robert who died as a child. All of Lettice's other children had been healthy, so it was a cruel twist of fate that their only legitimately-born child was not. "

Will Johnson

[Ginny Wagner]

The name Lettice in this post is the first time I've seen it outside of the Lettice that was a relative of the Abbot Geoffrey de Gorham early 12c (Talbot in The Life of Christina of Markyate) that I am attempting to trace. Is Lettice a common name?

[ljcrain]

Is Lettice a common name?

I believe it was in Wales. I see it often in pedigrees from there.

Enter "Lettice Wales" at Google.

Also:
http://www.mybirthcare.com/favorites/pg ... ames-l.asp

804. Lettice Latin F Joy. Popular medieval British form of the name
Letitia.


Janet Crain




----- Original Message -----
From: "Ginny Wagner" <[email protected]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Wednesday, January 12, 2005 1:59 PM
Subject: RE: Dudley and Lettice Knollys

The name Lettice in this post is the first time I've seen it outside of
the Lettice that was a relative of the Abbot Geoffrey de Gorham early 12c
(Talbot in The Life of Christina of Markyate) that I am attempting to
trace. Is Lettice a common name?

[Peter Stewart]

""Ginny Wagner"" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...

The name Lettice in this post is the first time I've seen it outside of
the Lettice that was a relative of the Abbot Geoffrey de Gorham
early 12c (Talbot in The Life of Christina of Markyate) that I am
attempting to trace. Is Lettice a common name?

It's not particularly uncommon, even today - the name is an English version
of Leticia & more usually given in that form until the Tudor period.

Peter Stewart

[Gjest]

Yes, I can also confirm the name Lettice was common in Wales.

Rose

[Ginny Wagner]

Thanks to all who have helped me with the name, Lettice. Appreciate your time and effort. Ginny

Life is much too important to be taken seriously.
-- Oscar Wilde

[Cristopher Nash]

John, you know me, always on the lookout for any new Botelers into
which to pour the troublesome old wine of --

Phillip le Boteler
| Clemence le Boteler
| & Nicholas de Verdun
| d. 1231
| | Rohese de Verdun
| | d. 1246/7
| | & Theobald II le Boteler/Butler
| | d. 1230

-- I wonder if you've glimpsed any poss. of a connection here?

Cheers!

Cris

Wednesday, 12 January, 2005


Dear David, et al.,

Following on the posts in this thread, I presently
conjecture the following is an accurate representation of the
le Boteler (or Botiller) of Skelbrooke pedigree, down to and
including the de la Hayes. This is based largely on the
research of W. P. Baildon (provided in your earliest post),
with what added definition has been achieved to date.
Conjectured links are designated (.......).

Looking forward to hearing of your/other thoughts,
comments and criticism.

Cheers,

John *

__________________________________________



__________________________________
I I
1A> Robert le Botiller <1B> Thomas de Armthorpe
'pincerna' I
________________________________I____
I I
2A> Alan fitz Thomas <2B> Robert fitz Thomas
d. bef 1203 I
I I
I I
3A> Hugh le Botiller <3B> John de Armthorpe
Hugh 'pincerna' of Sandal
= Avice de Savile
I
___I__________________________________________
I I I I
Richard le <4A> Idonea Denise William le
Botiller Botiller <4B
aka Richard de Savile
d. bef 1267/8
I
_____I_____________
I I
Richard le Robert = Constance Hugh de
Botiller le Botiller I Langthwaite
5A> <5B> I _____I____
I d. aft 1269 I I I
I ____________I I Hawise
I I I
Hugh le Robert = Agnes William Sir Saer
Botiller le I <possibly de de Sutton
6A> Botiller I Fitz- Langthwaite d bef Jul
6B> I William ?> = Agnes 1290
I .......: = Christiane
________________I_________ : ________ I
I I : I I
Robert Edmund = Agnes William Nicholas
7A> le Botiller I <7C> de Sutton
dsp 1294 b. say 1280 I = Joan
7B> ; d. I I
bef 4 Jul 1333 I _____________I__
________I___ I I
I I I I
I William <8B> I I
I I I
John le Botiller = Joan de Sutton Elizabeth
8A> : fl. 1336 <coheir
d. bef 1347 : <coheir> = John de
: Brayton
...:
:
Thomas de la Haye = Agnes
of Spaldington I <heir
d. aft 21 Dec 1379 I
I
I
Sir Peter de la Haye
of Spaldington
d. aft 21 Sept 1398
I
I
Thomas de la Haye = 1) Elizabeth
of Spaldington Babthorpe
d. bef 6 Oct 1433 = 2) Janet <mother of Alice
_____________I_______________________
I I I
Katherine Alice Isabel
= Robert Hildyard = Thomas Thwaites
of Winestead of Thwaites and Denton
I I
V V



* John P. Ravilious

--

[jean bunot]

Denis Beauregard <[email protected]> wrote in message news:<[email protected]>...

Dear Monsieur Beauregard. Thank you for your interest and your
question. Adrien de Meherenc, seigneur de La Conseillere was married
twice, firstly to Jeanne du Pont (1579) and secondly to Elisabeth de
Clinchamp (1590). According to a document in my possession, no
children were born from the second union. This document is a typed
genealogical chart of the senior and La Conseillere-Montmirel lines of
the Meherenc from the family archives of the Marquis de Saint-Pierre,
chef de nom et d'armes. I was very surprised to read in the Alain
Contant article of SGCF which you mention in your question that
Elisabeth de Clinchamp was assigned as the mother of Jean de Meherenc,
seigneur de Montmirel et de La Conseillere, since I was actually able
to obtain a photocopy of this chart through Me Contant himself who had
received it directly from the marquis de Saint-Pierre at his request.
I double checked today with Alain Contant and he confirmed that Jeanne
du Pont was indeed the right mother and that he had not received any
new information to the contrary. In fact he admited that it what a
minor "glitch" that escaped his attention. From memory, but I would
need to verify since I do not have the source at hand, I recall that
Maintenue de Noblesse de Normandie also made clearly Jean de Meherenc
de Montmirel and his siblings the children of Jeanne du Pont.

Taking advantage of this post, I would like to point out that the
Meherenc line offers many other very promissing gateways to be
researched, among which :

-ANNE DE GROSPARMY who was from the family of the Cardinal Raoul de
Grosparmy , bishop of Evreux (+ 1270), an important French councillor,
and of his nephew Raoul de Grosparmy, bishop of Orleans (+ 1311). The
Grosparmy were seigneurs de Beuville, Benneville, barons de Flers,
etc. Anne has a good chance of being a descendant of Raoul de
Grosparmy, seigneur de Beuville married in 1404 with Denise de
Tournebu, dame de Flers, daughter of Guillaume de Tournebu, seigneur
de Marbeuf and (m.1369) of Marie Paynel de Moyon, dame de Milly (with
mother Harcourt-Beaumesnil). According to "Quartiers genealogiques
d'Olivier Laurent" (in RGN # 66, p. 205), Anne de Grosparmy was
daughter of Jean, seigneur de Benneville and Jacqueline de Sillans.

-ISABEAU DE MALHERBE, dame du Breuil et de La Vaquerie. Aside from
being an heiress, she was from an ancient and distinguished normand
family which gave the renaissance poet Francois de Malherbe
(1555-1628). Although her exact placement within the Malherbe family
has not yet been investigated, she is, like many contemporary members
of that family, most probably descended from the marriage of Jean III
de Malherbe (living 1327) and Jeanne Bacon de Formigny, herself
daughter of Jeanne d'Estouteville (senior line).

Looking foreward to develop those new potential lines with your
collaboration,

Jean Bunot

[Denis Beauregard]

Le 13 Jan 2005 11:21:12 -0800, [email protected] (jean bunot)
écrivait dans soc.genealogy.medieval:

Looking foreward to develop those new potential lines with your
collaboration,

Entre nous, ce serait aussi intéressant d'en trouver sur mes
ancêtres Je dois dire que je reprends tout ce que je trouve
et que je l'intègre à ma base de données (disponible à la SGCF).
Je note aussi les têtes de lignes sur une page web
http://www.francogene.com/genealogie/qrd30.php (français)
http://www.francogene.com/genealogy/qrd30.php (English)

D'un côté, je sais que certains travaillent déjà sur des ascendances
bien précises et qu'il ne faut pas pour le moment refaire la même
chose en double.

D'un autre côté, je n'ai pas encore fait d'outil pour extraire de ma
base les têtes de lignes de tous ceux qui ont de la descendance. J'ai
les généalogies d'un grand nombre de personnes et à peu près tous les
mariages du Québec jusqu'en 1800 (je suis à intégrer ceux de
1800-1825) et une partie des Français du reste du continent, donc
je m'intéresse aussi à ceux dont je ne descends pas !

Voici quelques-uns de mes ancêtres et qui ont un certain potentiel:

### AILLEBOUST

Cette lignée a été fouillée par beaucoup de chercheurs

6 MARTIN, Abraham, fils de 12 et 13
m entre avril 1644 et octobre 1644 Ravières (Yonne: 890321)
7 D'AILLEBOUST, Suzanne, fille de 14 et 15
Réf.: Jim Bianco; RAPQ (1975) 115

12 MARTIN, Jacques
m avant 1628 Ravières (Yonne: 890321)
13 COSTE, Suzanne

14 D'AILLEBOUST, Nicolas, sieur de Coulonge (ou
Coulonge-la-Madeleine), commissaire garde des magasins à Thionville
n vers 1595 (France)
m 1620 Paris (Paris: 750056), cm 12 avril 1620 (rapq) ou 6 mai
1620 (rapq, gh) (greffe .. Dupuys et .. Nutrat)
15 MONTET (de), Dorothée, fille de 30 et 31
Réf.: RAPQ (1975) 115; Genealogica et Heraldica 180

28 D'AILLEBOUST, Antoine, conseiller ordinaire au Conseil de Mr
le Prince de Condé, fils de 56 et 57
[2e m avant 1612 Ancy-le-Franc (Yonne: 890005) : Suzanne
HOTMAN (François & Claude AUBELIN)]
m avant 1580 Autun ?
29 GENEVOIS, Marie
Réf.: RAPQ (1975) 115; Genealogica et Heraldica 181

30 MENTET (de), John puis Jean
m 1594 Paris (Paris: 750056), cm 18 juillet 1594 (greffe ..
Cathereau et .. Babynet)
(ce Jean de Mentet/Montet/Menteith est d'une maison écossaise
mais des recherches poussées n'ont rien donné)
31 HOTMAN, Suzanne, fille de 62 et 63
[2e m avant 1612 Ancy-le-Franc (Yonne: 890005) : Antoine
D'AILLEBOUST (André & Odette ROLET)]
Réf.: RAPQ (1975) 115

56 D'AILLEBOUST, André, fils de 112 et 113
m 1547 Autun ?
57 ROLET, Odette, fille de 114 et 115
Réf.: RAPQ (1975) 114; Genealogica et Heraldica 181-182

62 HOTMAN, François, fils de 124 et 125
m 15 avril 1553 Genève (St-Pierre)
63 AUBELIN, Claude, fille de 126 et 127
Réf.: RAPQ (1975) 209; TG91 192; Genealogica et Heraldica
182-183

112 D'AILLEBOUST, Pierre, médecin ordinaire du roi François Ier
d 21 août 1531 ou 3 septembre 1531
m entre 1510 et 1517 Autun ?
113 SÉEZ (de), Perrette
Réf.: RAPQ (1975) 113

114 ROLET, Hugues
m vers 1505 Autun ?
115 MICHELETET, Guillemette
Réf.: Genealogica et Heraldica 182-184

124 HOTMAN, Pierre
m vers 1520
125 MARLE (de), Paule, fille de 250 et 251
Réf.: TG 192

126 AUBELIN, Guillaume
m vers 1530 (France)
127 BRACHET, Françoise

250 MARLE (de), Waast, fils de 500 et 501
m vers 1500 (France)
251 DUPUIS, Jacqueline

500 MARLE (de), Jean, seigneur de Villiers St Paul
m vers 1470 ou 1480 (France)
501 LEBLOND, Sybille
Réf.: MSGCF (48) 194

1000 MARLE (de), Jean
m vers 1440 ou 1450 (France)
1001 THIEMBRONNE (de), Gilette, fille de 2002 et 2003
Réf.: MSGCF (48) 194

2002 THIEMBRONNE (de), Jean, seigneur de Merquenetz et de Marle lez
Callonne
m vers 1400 ou 1410 (France)
2003 .., ..
(les THIEMBRONNE ont été exploré comme ancêtres de
Catherine de Baillon)

### ANGLURE

2 DUMONT, Samuel
m avant 1646 Maixe (Meurthe-et-Moselle: 540335) ou Metz
3 D'ANGLURE, Marie Anne

Un premier essai via les d'Anglure de Bourlémont a échoué (mais les
d'Anglure sont très nombreux)

### BOILEAU

On m'a dit que les d'Argouges ne sont pas assez documentés.

3 Marie et Marguerite BOILEAU

6 BOILEAU de LAGOUPPILLIERE, René, sieur de la Goupillère
m vers 1640 Ballan auj 'Ballan-Miré (Indre-et-Loire: 370018)
7 FERRAND, Joachine, fille de 14 et 15
Réf.: AGCF (7) 12

12 BOILEAU, René, sieur de la Goupillère, fils de 24 et 25
m vers 1600 Tours (Indre-et-Loire: 370261)
13 QUANTIN, Marthe, fille de 26 et 27

14 FERRAND, Léonard, sieur de Belesbat
m vers 1620 Tours ? (Indre-et-Loire: 370261)
15 PORTEBISE (de), Jeanne

24 BOILEAU, René, sieur de la Baste et de la Goupillère, marchand
bourgeois de Tours, fils de 48 et 49
m 1572 Tours (Indre-et-Loire: 370261), cm 9 novembre 1572
25 PROUST, Marie

26 QUANTIN, André, fils de 52 et 53
m 1572 Tours (Indre-et-Loire: 370261), cm 13 mai 1572 (greffe
Jean Foucher)
27 BOUGRAULT, Marguerite

48 BOILEAU, René, sieur de la Baste, marchand bourgeois de Tours
m vers 1540 Tours ? (Indre-et-Loire: 370261)
49 SOUSSAC, Marie

50 PROUST, Louis, sieur de la Goupillère
m avant 1560 Tours ? (Indre-et-Loire: 370261)
51 GASCOING, Perrine

52 QUANTIN, Guillaume
m vers 1525 Loches ? (Indre-et-Loire: 370132)
53 DELAREBERTIÈRE, Marie

54 BOUGRAULT, Jean
m vers 1540 Tours (Indre-et-Loire: 370261)
55 DARGOUGES, Françoise, fille de 110 et 111

110 DARGOUGES, Nicolas, sieur de Vaux (com Flée) et Malitourne
(com Flée), fils de 220 et 221
m vers 1500 Tours (Indre-et-Loire: 370261)
111 RAGUENEAU, ..

220 DARGOUGES, Martin, sieur de Vaux (com Flée)
m vers 1470 Tours (Indre-et-Loire: 370261)
221 .., Claudine

440 peut-être DARGOUGES, Martin
m vers 1430 Tours ? (Indre-et-Loire: 370261)
441 peut-être VERRINIER, Perrine

Réf.: AGCF (12) 20-21 pour la majeure partie des recherches

### CREVIER

Il n'est que boulanger mais je me demande si cela ne cache pas quelque
chose quand on voit le nombre de particules et le fait que la famille
se donne du "seigneur".

2 CREVIER de BELLERIVE, Jean, seigneur de St-François
m 26 novembre 1663 Trois-Rivières, cm 20 (greffe Ameau)

4 CREVIER de la MÊLÉE, Christophe, boulanger, fils de 8 et 9
b 17 février 1611 Rouen (St-Cande-le-Jeune) (Seine-Maritime:
760540) (RAPQ (1975) 157)
d entre testament 1er décembre 1662 et 26 novembre 1663 (René
Jetté)
m 1633 Rouen (St-Cande-le-Jeune) (Seine-Maritime: 760540),
bans 6 novembre 1633 Rouen (St-Cande-le-Jeune) (Seine-Maritime:
760540)
5 ÉVARD, Jeanne
n vers 1616 (rec-1666), 1622 (rec-1667) Rouen ?
(Seine-Maritime: 760540) (RAPQ (1975) 157)
d après 21 janvier 1682 Batiscan
Réf.: RAPQ (1975) 157

8 CREVIER, Nicolas, maître boulanger, fils de 16 et 17
m avant 1608 Rouen (St-Cande-le-Jeune) (Seine-Maritime:
760540)
9 BASIRET, Anne

16 CREVIER, Hugues, fils de 32 et 33
m vers 1560
17 LEVASSEUR, Hélène

32 CREVIER, Robert, boulanger
d avant 1583 (France)
m vers 1530
33 DAUPHIN, Jeanne

### SALIGNAT

Peut-être une illusion à cause de la particule...

2 DUBOIS, Jean, fils de 4 et 5
n vers 1635 St-Sixte (nof)/St-Xiste (fg) com Turgon (Charente:
160389)
m 22 novembre 1688 Québec, cm 11 (greffe Gilles Rajotte)
3 MAILLOUX, Marie Anne
n vers 1669 (sép-1749)
d 28 s 28 novembre 1749 Hôpital général de Québec
[2e m 10 janvier 1711 Québec, cm 4 (greffe Jacques Barbel) :
Noël LEVASSEUR (Jean & Marguerite RICHARD)]

4 DUBOIS, François
m avant 1635 St-Sixte com Turgon (Charente: 160389)
5 SALIGNAT (de), Jeanne

### LIERCOURT

Encore de la particule mais il y a des seigneurs de Liercourt en
France

2 JUILLET dit DAVIGNON, Blaise, fils de 4 et 5
b 26 février 1611 Avignon (St-Agricol) (Vaucluse: 840007)
(MSGCF (3) 59)
d 19 s 20 avril 1660 Montréal
cm 2 février 1651 (greffe Nicolas Gatineau dit Duplessis),
autre cm 2 février 1651 (parch) ou 10 février 1651 (prdh) (greffe
Sévérin Ameau)
3 LIERCOURT (de), Anne Antoinette
n vers 1633 (rec-1681), 1630 (sép-1707) Beauvais
(Ste-Marguerite) (Oise: 600057)
s 30 septembre 1707 Montréal
[2e m 30 juin 1660 Montréal, cm 11 (greffe Bénigne Basset dit
Deslauriers) : Hugues PICARD (Gabriel & Michelle CLAVIER)]
Réf.: DGFQ 613

6 LIERCOURT (de), Philippe
m avant 1633 Beauvais (Oise: 600057)
7 PATIN, Jeanne

### POITIERS et BELLEAU

Alliance avec les BREDA d'une autre BELLEAU et lignée royale

2 LEFEBVRE dit ANGERS, Simon, fils de 4 et 5
n vers 1642 Tracy-le-Val (St-Eloi) (Oise: 600642)
m 11 janvier 1667 Québec, cm 10 (greffe Gilles Rajotte)
3 POITIERS (de), Marie Charlotte
n Montdidier (Somme: 800561)
[1er m 12 octobre 1660 Québec, cm 2 mai (greffe Guillaume
Audouart) : Joseph HÉBERT (Guillaume & Hélène DESPORTES)]
Son père passe un cm à cet endroit

4 LEFEBVRE, Simon
m avant 1642 Tracy-le-Val (St-Éloi) (Oise: 600642)
5 COUTURIER, Marie
(il y a des LEFEBVRE-ANGERS en France)

6 POITIERS (de), Pierre Charles
d avant 2 mai 1660 (France)
m avant 1641 Montdidier ? (Somme: 800561)
7 BELLEAU, Hélène, fille de 14 et 15
d avant 2 mai 1660 (France)
Réf.: RAPQ (1975) 128

14 BELLEAU (de), Antoine, sieur de Cantigny et de Pommeroy
s 19 mars 1641 Paris (St-André-des-Arts) (Paris: 750106)
Note: selon Janko Pavsic, elle descend de Charlemagne
cm 21 décembre 1600 (greffe .. Avril (Montdidier))
15 VUALPERGUE (de), Catherine, fille de 30 et 31
(ascendance royale résolue et non publiée selon un
correspondant)

28 BELLEAU (de), Jacques, sieur de la Garde, fils de 56 et 57
d entre 1583 et 19 août 1590 (France)
m avant 1583 (France)
29 CHARLET, Françoise
d après 19 août 1590 (France)
Note: elle avait le 19-08-1590 la garde noble de ses enfants,
soeur de Simon Charlet, éc., seigneur de St-Aignan (Grivesne, 800390)
et de Poupaincourt

56 BELLEAU (de), Louis, sieur de la Garde
m vers 1540 (France)
57 DUPUIS, Jeanne
Note: mère de Frédéric Parpas par un autre mariage

### RENNEL

Est-ce un hasard ou de la parenté ? Il y a une Louise de Rennel
chatelaine de Delme, mais une génération trop tôt et décédée 20 ou 30
ans trop tôt pour pouvoir être la marraine de Catherine. Cette Louise
a des descendants seigneurs de Delme pendant plusieurs générations.

2 BARBIER dit MINIME, Gilbert, fils de 4 et 5
n Decize (St-Aré) (Nièvre: 580095)
s 15 novembre 1693 Pointe-aux-Trembles
m 14 novembre 1650 Montréal, cm 5 (greffe Jean de St-Père)
3 DELAVAU, Catherine, fille de 6 et 7
n Delme (St-Germain) (Moselle: 570171)

6 LAVAU (de), Alexandre
m avant 1638 Delme (St-Germain) (Moselle: 570171)
7 RENNEL (de), Louise



### ROLLAND de PELLETEAU

Michel Langlois considère ce dossier comme classé parce que Nicole
Rolland a été condamnée pour usurpation d'identité. Le titre de
son père est peut-être faux. Par contre, j'ai trouvé à Nancy au
moins un Rolland de Pelleteau

4 BLONDEAU, François, fils de 8 et 9
n 1629 (conf 1659) Saumur (Notre-Dame-de-Nantilly)
(Maine-et-Loire: 490328)
m 8 février 1655 Québec, cm 29 janvier (greffe Guillaume
Audouart)
5 ROLLAND des PELLETEAUX, Nicole dite Gabrielle d'ASSONVILLE
n vers 1641 (src?), 1634 (sép-1694) Paris (St-Sulpice) (Paris:
750106)
s 24 septembre 1694 Charlesbourg

10 ROLLAND, Pierre, gouverneur de Nancy ou Luxy en Lorraine
m avant 1641 Nancy (Meurthe-et-Moselle: 540395)
11 DECHOS, Françoise


### SEVESTRE

Je pense que ce cas a été étudié il y a environ 20 ans. C'est une
lignée d'imprimeurs et je me demande s'il y a des alliances dans la
bourgeoisie menant vers la noblesse.

2 SEVESTRE, Charles, fils de 4 et 5
n 20 novembre 1607 Paris (Paris: 750105) (MSGCF (31) 125)
d 8 s 9 décembre 1657 Québec
Note: la date de naissance provient d'un manuscrit de Jean de
Lacaille, peut-être daté de 1689 (voir Lottin, Catalogue chronologique
des libraires et des libraires-imprimeurs de Paris, p. iv)
m 1627 Paris (St-Étienne du Mont de Paris) (Paris: 750105)
3 PICHON, Marie
n (France)
d 3 s 4 mai 1661 Québec
Réf.: MSGCF (31) 115

4 SEVESTRE, Charles, imprimeur et libraire à l'Université de
Paris, fils de 8 et 9
n (France)
d entre 1624 et 1627 (France)
m 2 février 1605 Paris (St-Hilaire) (Paris: 750114), cm 2
5 PETITPAS, Marguerite
n Paris ? (Paris: 750056) (MSGCF (31) 115)
d 13 s 14 septembre 1640 Québec
Réf.: MSGCF (31) 115-116; MSGCF (31) 115-116 (AN m.c. XVIII,
R. 139

8 SEVESTRE, Thomas, libraire en 1603, fils de 16 et 17
m avant 1589 Paris (Paris: 750056)
9 BOUCHEROT, Jeanne

10 PETITPAS, Jean, marchand de vin, libraire en 1606
m avant 1593 Paris (Paris: 750056)
11 MACÉ, Marguerite, fille de 22 et 23

16 SEVESTRE, Louis, libraire en 1543-1584
m vers 1545 Paris (Paris: 750056)
17 L'ESCALIER, Jeanne, fille de 34 et 35

22 MACÉ, Jean
m avant 1581 (France)
23 ROLLAND, Geneviève

34 L'ESCALIER, Balthazar, imprimeur (1543-1551)
n Betz-en-Valois prob. Betz (Oise: 600063)
d après 1551 (France)
m vers 1520 Paris ? (Paris: 750056)
35 Inconnue

############

Par ailleurs, je descends aussi de Catherine de Baillon (ascendances
trouvés par son père et sa mère) et des Ledran et Amiot (quelqu'un
travaille sur ce dossier), ainsi que des Savard (plusieurs
générations à Montreuil, mais ce sont des roturiers).

Je descends également des Stoughton, mais c'est une autre lignée
Stoughton que j'ai reliée à la royauté. Les miens passent par
les Rising ou Nims et les royaux par les Otis et Hotesse.

Parmi les autres immigrants ayant potentiellement une longue
ascendance, il y a les Latour (royauté atteinte via les Salazar), et
Motin d'Acadie (je suis en train de monter la lignée à partir des
notes de René Jetté et à partir des Motin, j'ai atteint les comtes de
Savoie). Apparemment, les Rocheblave auraient de la descendance
(noblesse du Dauphiné). Je sais que plusieurs familles nobles ou
apparemment nobles ont de la descendance, comme les Fleury de la
Gorgendière, les Juchereau du Perche, les Liénard de Beaujeu, les
Migeon de Branssat, François Étienne CUGNET, les RENAUD-DAVAINE des
MÉLOISES (ascendance Montsaulnin sur membres.lycos.fr/aweng), les
DUPONT de NEUVILLE, les PEUVRET de MESNU, les NAU de FOSSAMBAUT,
les GIFFARD du Perche (qui remontent à Jehanne de BEAUVOISIN), les
CHAVIGNY (je pense que quelqu'un est en train de résoudre cette
lignée), les d'ABANCOURT (quelqu'un travaille sur cette famille), les
TASCHEREAU de SAPAILLÉ de Touraine, les BOUCHARD d'ORVAL, les MOREL de
la DURANTAYE, les BILLY (on n'a pas les parents du migrant), etc.

En fait, la liste est assez longue et je ne trouve jamais de temps
pour la compléter.


Denis

--
0 Denis Beauregard
/\/ http://www.francogene.com
|\ >>Adresse modifiée souvent/email changed frequently<<
/ | Société généalogique canadienne-française
oo oo http://www.sgcf.com

[Alain Contant]

My dear friend Jean Bunot contacted me today to verify who had been
married to Adrien de Méhérenc (Jeanne du Pont or Elisabeth de
Clinchamps ?) and to suggest that there was a discrepancy between the
additional ascendancy chart published in my article (Elisabeth) and
the chart sent to me by the marquis de Saint-Pierre (Jeanne). Of
course Jean Bunot was right.

The typed chart indicates that Adrien de Méhérenc married Jeanne du
Pont in 1579 (with issue).

I should have inserted Jeanne du Pont's name in the additional
ascendancy chart, corrected the marriage date to 1579, and indicated
that the insertion of Elisabeth de Clinchamps' name and the 1590 date
in M. Beauregard's chart (that I refer to at the beginning of my
article) is at variance with the family chart sent by the marquis de
Saint-Pierre. Did Elisabeth marry Adrien "en seconde noces"?

M. Bunot is most kind in seeing a minor glitch. It rather is careless
reviewing for which I apologize. I owe much to Jean Bunot whose
formidable interest and knowledge in genealogy has been an inspiration
to me for almost fifteen years.

[Bob Turcott]

Alain,

I would have to agree, everything I have ever seen published by Jean has
been fasinating
and of course with great interest, part of my ancestral line is of this
particular Meherenc liniage, there
are a lot of interesting observations that Jean brings to light, I have been
interested in this liniage for
quite some time, there are several possibilties, another might be :

Jean de Méhérenc, seigneur de Montmirel et de La Conseillère
m. 1609, Jeanne Dumesnil

I have suspected for quite some time Jeanne Dumesnil may be tied somehow to
Mesnil castle, during
medieval times it was very common for one to be merely called or named after
where they lived or where their surname originated.

This is my website that pertains to the Meherenc:
http://freepages.genealogy.rootsweb.com ... royal.html
with Highest regards,
Bob Turcott

From: [email protected] (Alain Contant) To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: De Meherenc de Montmirel royal gateway- new Date: 13 Jan 2005
18:44:32 -0800

My dear friend Jean Bunot contacted me today to verify who had been married
to Adrien de Méhérenc (Jeanne du Pont or Elisabeth de Clinchamps ?) and to
suggest that there was a discrepancy between the additional ascendancy
chart published in my article (Elisabeth) and the chart sent to me by the
marquis de Saint-Pierre (Jeanne). Of course Jean Bunot was right.

The typed chart indicates that Adrien de Méhérenc married Jeanne du Pont
in 1579 (with issue).

I should have inserted Jeanne du Pont's name in the additional ascendancy
chart, corrected the marriage date to 1579, and indicated that the
insertion of Elisabeth de Clinchamps' name and the 1590 date in M.
Beauregard's chart (that I refer to at the beginning of my article) is at
variance with the family chart sent by the marquis de Saint-Pierre. Did
Elisabeth marry Adrien "en seconde noces"?

M. Bunot is most kind in seeing a minor glitch. It rather is careless
reviewing for which I apologize. I owe much to Jean Bunot whose formidable
interest and knowledge in genealogy has been an inspiration to me for
almost fifteen years.

[Rose]

Torriano wrote:

I am a descendant of William St Leger, grandson of the Elizabethan
statesman
Sir Anthony St Leger. Can anybody give me a brief summary of his
immediate
ancestry over a few generations? I appreciate that Sir Anthony may
have had
several grandsons named William but I have no more info on him other
than that
his daughter married John (?) Pigott, ancestor of the Pigotts of
Knapton and
Capard. How does this family fit into the St Legers of Kent and
Richard III's
brother-in-law?
Thanks,
Mark

Mark,

Im not sure whether you still monitor this site, but in response to
your original posting your William St. Leger was the son of Sir Anthony
St. Leger the Elizabethan Statesman and his wife Agnes Warham, niece of
Archbishop Warham. William's daughter Anne St. Leger married Sir
Robert Pigot.

This William was the eldest son of Sir Anthony, and is recorded in
Burke's as being disenherited. He is not mentioned in his fathers
will. This was possibly because he had already been catered for with
estates in Ireland. Although, I have seen it written that he
predeceased his father but I cannot prove this. He settled in Ireland
and became the ancestor of the Viscount's Doneraile and the St. Leger
family of co. Cork.

Rose

[Gjest]

In reply to Christopher Nash's query, I believe that Rohesia, wife of
Theobald Butler, was the daughter of Nicholas de Verdon by his first wife Joan de
Lacy. I have seen evidence in the Curia Regis Rolls (I've mislaid the reference)
that Nicholas was indeed married to Clemencia by 1228, but I believe this
was a second marriage.
I'm sorry, but I don't have any Philip Butler on my tree as issue of either
of these marriages.
MM

[Gjest]

Friday, 14 January, 2005


Dear Cris,

Sorry for not catching this and writing back sooner; you know I'd
do anything for ye in a pincerna....

The answer for better or worse is, no. It originally appeared
(both in print as Baildon noted, then later to me) that Edmund le
Boteler or Butler, of Skelbrook (d. bef 4 Jul 1333, husband of Agnes)
was the same individual as Edmund, the Justiciar of Ireland and father
of James Butler, 1st Earl of Ormond - cousins of your Theobald (d.
1230) below. However, this has been roundly disproved (but by Baildon,
not Round).

There are other Butlers running about in 13th-14th cent. Yorkshire
still looking for assigned families; I wonder if country estates in
England today still have the same problem......

Cheers,

John



Cristopher Nash wrote:

John, you know me, always on the lookout for any new Botelers into
which to pour the troublesome old wine of --

Phillip le Boteler
| Clemence le Boteler
| & Nicholas de Verdun
| d. 1231
| | Rohese de Verdun
| | d. 1246/7
| | & Theobald II le Boteler/Butler
| | d. 1230

-- I wonder if you've glimpsed any poss. of a connection here?

Cheers!

Cris



Wednesday, 12 January, 2005


Dear David, et al.,

Following on the posts in this thread, I presently
conjecture the following is an accurate representation of the
le Boteler (or Botiller) of Skelbrooke pedigree, down to and
including the de la Hayes. This is based largely on the
research of W. P. Baildon (provided in your earliest post),
with what added definition has been achieved to date.
Conjectured links are designated (.......).

Looking forward to hearing of your/other thoughts,
comments and criticism.

Cheers,

John *

__________________________________________



__________________________________
I I
1A> Robert le Botiller <1B> Thomas de Armthorpe
'pincerna' I
________________________________I____
I I
2A> Alan fitz Thomas <2B> Robert fitz Thomas
d. bef 1203 I
I I
I I
3A> Hugh le Botiller <3B> John de Armthorpe
Hugh 'pincerna' of Sandal
= Avice de Savile
I
___I__________________________________________
I I I I
Richard le <4A> Idonea Denise William le
Botiller Botiller <4B
aka Richard de Savile
d. bef 1267/8
I
_____I_____________
I I
Richard le Robert = Constance Hugh de
Botiller le Botiller I Langthwaite
5A> <5B> I _____I____
I d. aft 1269 I I I
I ____________I I Hawise
I I I
Hugh le Robert = Agnes William Sir Saer
Botiller le I <possibly de de Sutton
6A> Botiller I Fitz- Langthwaite d bef Jul
6B> I William ?> = Agnes 1290
I .......: = Christiane
________________I_________ : ________ I
I I : I I
Robert Edmund = Agnes William Nicholas
7A> le Botiller I <7C> de Sutton
dsp 1294 b. say 1280 I = Joan
7B> ; d. I I
bef 4 Jul 1333 I _____________I__
________I___ I I
I I I I
I William <8B> I I
I I I
John le Botiller = Joan de Sutton Elizabeth
8A> : fl. 1336 <coheir
d. bef 1347 : <coheir> = John de
: Brayton
...:
:
Thomas de la Haye = Agnes
of Spaldington I <heir
d. aft 21 Dec 1379 I
I
I
Sir Peter de la Haye
of Spaldington
d. aft 21 Sept 1398
I
I
Thomas de la Haye = 1) Elizabeth
of Spaldington Babthorpe
d. bef 6 Oct 1433 = 2) Janet <mother of Alice
_____________I_______________________
I I I
Katherine Alice Isabel
= Robert Hildyard = Thomas Thwaites
of Winestead of Thwaites and Denton
I I
V V



* John P. Ravilious


--