Thora Winqvist til Chicago - eller kanskje ikke ?

[Kjell Halvorsen]

Hjalmar Wilhelm Winqvist - senere Bill Winqvist - emigrerte fra Oslo 14 september 1907, oppgitt reisemål var Canada http://digitalarkivet.no/cgi-win/webcen ... 80643#ovre

Han var da gift med Anna Thora Marie (Thora) Winqvist, f. 17.08.1879 i Hobøl og de hadde døtrene Lilie Marie Winqvist f. 13.11.1901 og Tora Elisabeth Konstantine Winqvist f. 28.03.1905, begge født i Kristiania.

En bok inneholder et avsnitt der Bill Winqvist forteller om sitt liv i Amerika. Han sier blant annet at hans kone og barn kom på besøk til ham i Chicago og at de i utgangspunktet hadde til hensikt å bli i Amerika, men at hans kone og barn etter kort tid reiste hjem.

For om mulig å kildebelegge Bill Winqvists utsagn om besøk fra Norge til Chicago av kona, har en søkt etter Thora Winqvist m/barn i emigrasjonsprotollene fra Norge, uten suksess.

Kan noen hjelpe ved å gjøre oppslag/søk etter mor og barn med navnet Winqvist i amerikanske inn-/utreisearkiv for perioden 1907-1910 ?

[dn19075]

Kunne ikke finne de ankommet USA med det etternavnet, eller varianter.

[Tom Kaasen]

Hei

Finner Thora og døtrene i FT1910, med litt annen stavemåte på etternavnet. Hun oppgis her å være enke og mannen oppgis å ha vært finsk.

mvh
Tom Kaasen

[gj04741]

Hei

Finner Thora og døtrene i FT1910, med litt annen stavemåte på etternavnet. Hun oppgis her å være enke og mannen oppgis å ha vært finsk.

mvh
Tom Kaasen

Linken din fungerer ikke, men her er de i FT1910, http://digitalarkivet.arkivverket.no/ft/person/pf01036392192197

[Tom Kaasen]

Hei

Har akkurat oppdaget det og rettet feilen.

mvh
Tom Kaasen

[Margit R Bakke]

Lots of Winquist up in Canada

http://www.ourroots.ca/e/

[Kari Sandberg]

Også ifølge emigrasjonslisten 1907 er han født i Finland.

[Tom Kaasen]

Hei

Her er han i skipslistene i FT1900

Finsk her også, Luthersk trossamfunn

Fant konfirmasjonen til Lilli Marie i Paulus her, nr. 86

Her står det at foreldrene var ugift på fødselstidspunktet. Det står også kun Oslo som fødested, ikke dåpskirke og ikke Kristiania.

mvh
Tom Kaasen

[Kjell Halvorsen]

Takk til alle i forsøket på å hjelpe oss ! Mye er kjent vedrørende familien Winqvist i Kristiania og Bill Winqvist i USA. Vårt problem – som fortsatt ikke er løst – er at vi til nå ikke har vært i stand til å finne dokumentert Thora m/barn utreist fra Norge eller innreist til Amerika/Canada. En grunn til det kan jo være så enkel at de ikke reiste, selv om familiehistorien har flere hendelser som indikerer det motsatte.

Derfor gjentar jeg etterlysning om info: Kan noen finne Anna Thora Winqvist med noen av de nevnte døtrene Lilie Marie och Elisabeth Konstantine Winqvist på lister for ut- eller innreiste fra eller til Norge eller blant ankommende på passasjerlister i Amerika/Canada 1907-1908-eller 1909 ?

Mvh Kjell H.

[Margit R Bakke]

Canadian Passenger Lists, 1865-1935 about Halmar Winquest
Name: Halmar Winquest
Gender: Male
Age: 29
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1878
Date of Arrival: 27 Sep 1907
Vessel: Empress of Ireland
Search Ship Database: View the 'Empress of Ireland' in the 'Passenger Ships and Images' database
Port of Arrival: Montreal, Quebec
Port of Departure: Liverpool, England
Roll: T-492

[Margit R Bakke]

Going to Duluth the way it appears.

Border Crossings: From Canada to U.S., 1895-1954 about Hjalmar Wenquist
Name: Hjalmar Wenquist
Arrival Date: Nov 1908
Port of Arrival: Winnipeg, Manitoba, Canada
Residence Country: Canada
Age: 30
Birth Date: abt 1878
Birth Country: Finland
Gender: Male
Race/Nationality: Scandinavian
Record Type: Manifests
Line Number: 27

[Kari Sandberg]

Jeg har bare tilgang til USA på Ancestry, men kan ikke finne dem der.

[Kjell Halvorsen]

Takk til Margit og Kari for ytterligere forsøk. Negativ informasjon kan også være informasjon !

Kjell H.

[gj19135]

Tack alla ni i Norge som hjälpt mig med att finna information om min farmors bror Hjalmar Winqvist från Finland. Tack vare Kjell H och er andra på slektforum har jag igen fått många nya uppgifter. Jag visste inte ens att Hjalmar först åkte till Canada och 1908 till Chicago och jag vet inte heller när han sedan återvände till Canada.
Själv har jag inte tillgång till listor på immigranter till Amerika eller Canada.

Jag hoppas därför att någon av er ännu orkar leta efter Thora och någon av döttrarna i listorna med beaktande av att Tora Winqvist kan ha använt något av sina 3 förnamn Anna Thora, Tora eller Marie och släktnamnet kan ha skrivits som t.ex. Winqvist, Vinkvist, Winguist, Weenguest eller Winguest.

Om någon råkar finna uppgifter om när hon gifte om sig med Oscar Johnsrud från Vestby i Akershus som var född 11.05.1885 så är jag tacksam för den uppgiften också. De måste ha gift sig efter 1909 men troligtvis minst 10-12 år senare efter det att Hjalmar blev förklarad död.

med bästa hälsningar till er alla från Hjalmars systers sonson Tom, från Finland.

[dn27264]

Going to Duluth the way it appears.

Border Crossings: From Canada to U.S., 1895-1954 about Hjalmar Wenquist
Name: Hjalmar Wenquist
Arrival Date: Nov 1908
Port of Arrival: Winnipeg, Manitoba, Canada
Residence Country: Canada
Age: 30
Birth Date: abt 1878
Birth Country: Finland
Gender: Male
Race/Nationality: Scandinavian
Record Type: Manifests
Line Number: 27

Hjalmar was residing in the town of Lac du Bonnet i the Province of Manitoba when he crossed the border into the United States in November 1908. Lac du Bonnet is about an hour north-east of the City of Winnipeg.

If he ended up coming back to Canada then he might have returned to Lac du Bonnet.

Erik

[gj19135]

Than you Erik for your comments. In my opinion it might be difficult to compare distances in hours. Think about how long it took a 100 years ago?

However, Bill ( as Hjalmar William Winqvist was called over there) returned to Canada at some time after 1909? (would be nice to know) and settled down as a trapper in Horsefly where he build a camp. He lived there until 1946. When the war in Europe was over he sold his camp and had decided to return home to Finland, but he was shot to death on his farewell party in Horsefly. All the facts about this accident, (as it was told to be) , vere probably never totally examined. I have already spend much time on this interesting case, but back to the basics. For the moment I just want to find out if his wife Tora from Norway with their daughter(s) they had two , really wisited him in Chicago or not. According to the Swedish author for a book who visited Horsefly in 1936, she had visited Bill in Chicago around the years 1907-1908 but I would like to get some evidence.

I am thankfull for every, piece of additional information I can get.

Best regards to all of you Tom

[dn27264]

I was giving you the distance in the time it would take one to travel by car from the City of Winnipeg (where I grew up) to the Town of Lac du Bonnet, which I travelled to many times, having frequented a cottage there many times. I am quite familiar with how long it took people to travel across Canada, particularly the Canadian Prairies, a hundred years ago.

There is a record for a William Winquist who died on May 26, 1946 in Williams Lake in the Province of British Columbia. Williams Lake is about 66 kilometres from Horsefly. This record can be ordered from the Ministry of Vital Statistics in the event you were interested in getting it. It would provide a great deal of information on the circumstances surrounding his death. I can tell you that Horsefly would have had a Royal Canadian Mounted Police (RCMP) detachment and as such Hjalmar's death would have been reported to and investigated by the RCMP. There might even be a record of the event with the RCMP Archives and the Royal British Columbia Museum Archives; this is in the event you were interested in pursuing more details surrounding Hjalmar's death.

Good luck in your search for evidence of Tora's and her children's suspected travel to the United States. I'm sorry, I wouldn't be much help in finding them as I'm not too familiar with American immigration records.

Erik

[dn27264]

Just so you know, there is a Probate-Estate file for Mr William Winquist housed with the Province of British Columbia. This file would tell what happened to his estate after his death, and certainly the circumstance surrounding his death:


GR-2257
BRITISH COLUMBIA. SUPREME COURT (Williams Lake).
Originals, 1928-1947, 26 cm

Probate-estate files.

Transferred from Ministry of Attorney General, 1989.

Subject Headings
Probate records - British Columbia - Cariboo district
Probate records - British Columbia - Williams Lake

[gj19135]

Best Erik:
1.First of all, I apologize for my stupid comments about the distances.

2. Thank you very-very much for your valuable information.

3. Will it be expensive to order the record for William and the Probate-estate file?
Have you seen them or do you have access to them?

4. Can you send them to me or shold I just contact the BC archives on Monday and ask for help or can I find them on internet?

Have a nice week-end. I can hardly wait until next week for such interesting information.
Bets regards Tom

[dn27264]

Hi Tom,

You can order what is called a 'Registration of Death for Genealogical Research' for Hjalmar. It will provide several details of his death (of which you already know much of course). It could be interesting to compare what is recorded officially by the Crown and what you have heard or read. You can also order something called a 'Certified Medical Certification of Death for Genealogical Research'. These can be ordered online at:

http://www.vs.gov.bc.ca/genealogy/death.html

You already know the reference number of Hjalmar's (William's) estate records housed with the Royal British Columbia Museum. You can order a copy of it from this Web site (click on the link entitled 'Photocopies and Reproductions') at:

http://www.bcarchives.bc.ca/bcarchives/default.aspx


Also, I have found that William Winquist was naturalised as a British Subject on September 25, 1930 in Horsefly. He is recorded as a 'rancher'. To be naturalised a British Subject one had to have lived in one of His Majesty's Dominions (in this case the Dominion of Canada) for at least five years. So, that means that he must have moved back to Canada by at least 1925 (maybe you already know when he came back to Canada). Naturalisation records can be ordered from Library and Archives Canada in Ottawa. When one is naturalised a British Subject, he or she must provide a great deal of information. So, Hjalmar would have had to have provided information on his wife and children and his life in Canada up to the time of naturalisation.

I highly recommend that you consider obtaining a copy of his naturalisation papers, which would provide details of his life from his arrival in Canada in 1907 to 1930. More information on ordering these documents can be obtained here:

http://www.collectionscanada.gc.ca/data ... 150-e.html

I shall see if I can find out anything about Thora and his daughters.

Erik

[dn27264]

This the record of Hjalmar's death housed with British Columbia Vital Statistics:

Vital Event Death Registration

Name: William Winquist
Event Date: 1946 5 26 (Yr/Mo/Day)
Age: 63
Gender: male
Event Place: Williams Lake

Reg. Number: 1946-09-010303
B.C. Archives Microfilm Number: B13191
GSU Microfilm Number: 2032423

[dn27264]

Attached is the earliest date (1935) on which he appears in the directories of residents of the Province of British Columbia. You know that he was there in 1930, and probably even as early as 1925. It's not really anything knew, but at least shows his occupation. He appears as well in the 1946 edition, but is listed as a 'prospector'. So he jobs changed a fair bit, i.e., 1930 a rancher, 1935 a trapper, 1946 a prospector. If you want to see if he's in the Directory for the remaining years, you can find the Directory at the following site:

http://www.vpl.ca/bccd/index.php/browse/index

Erik - Still working on Thora and the daughters.

[gj19135]

Best Erik. I have already from Norway got all necessary information about Hjalmars wife and his children from birth to death and all fact about his wife Thora, EXCEPT FOR SOME KIND OF EVIDENCE THAT SHE REALLY VISITED HJALMAR IN CHICAGO or Bill as he was called in Canada. This is the most important information that I would like to get for the moment.

Thora left Bill finally in 1909 by sending him a letter, and she got later official divorce in Norway and in 1915 she married another man and I do have enough of information about him.

However I am still interested in getting additional information about Hjalmar himself and for example what he did in Chicago. I know the he was working in the state of Washington for Milwaukee and Saint Paul railways where he broke his left leg in an accident and was unemployed for a long difficult time in 1910 but I do not know exactly when he moved to Horsefly and on which conditions he was able to get properties there.
From the very kind local people there I have also got information and even contact to a man who still remember Bill.

Partly the information I have is based on a few letters from Bill to his sister in Finland and some I have got from Dis-Norge and from a couple of books writen by the Sweedish author Albert Viksten, who had tree brothers who emigrated to Canada. He has written some books where he also write a lot about Bill, based on his two visits to Horsefly, the first in 1936 and the other in 1951 just after Bills death which he also mention in the later one.

Last week I even got a copy of the official registration of Hjalmars death 26:th of may 1946 !

Today I have now send some questions to the archives in BC according to your recommendations. As you notice my English is not as good as I would wish but I hope I will be understood.

Thank you Erik for today, very very much! Best regards Tom.

[dn27264]

Hi Tom,

Okay, I understand better now what exactly you're looking for. It seems to me then that if Thora and the daughters visited Hjalmar in the United States then it must have happened between November 1908 and of course before she sent him the letter in 1909, a very short window. If she did indeed visit him in Chicago then there is a chance that she travelled via Canada, so I shall check the Canadian Passenger Ship records.

I highly recommend that you get hold of Hjalmar's naturalisation papers from Citizenship and Immigration Canada, as per the link I provided. He will have had to document his exact years in Canada (1907-1908), his time living in the United States (1908- ca. 1925) and his second period in Canada (ca. 1925-1930, the year he became naturalised a British Subject). He would have had to have had provided details on his wife and children, and quite likely, his occupations, including what he did for a living while living in the United States. There would also be the names of the individuals who could vouch for his character, as the Royal Canadian Mounted Police would have sent a constable to interview these individuals (usually just two people) about Hjalmar. The papers would also indicate why Hjalmar wanted to become a British Subject, when exactly he came back to Canada (Horsefly), etc.

The naturalisation papers might well provide you with the answers for which you are looking. They should provide a summary of his life between 1907 and 1930.

I shall look to see if I can find Thora and children travelling to Chicago via Canada between November 1908 and 1909.

Erik

[dn27264]

Okay, I took at look to see if Thora and her children travelled to Chicago via Canada, but with no luck. There were of course some Winquists (Winqvists, Winkvists, etc.), but no really good candidates.

Good luck with your search.

Erik

[gj19135]

When Hjalmar left his home in Finland, Finland still was a part of Russia.
Finland became independent in the year 1918. I can imagine that Hjalmar after so many years i Canada wanted to be naturalized in order to avoid any risk.
I have never found any information that he had any passport or permission to leave Finland.
He might have left Finland in an illegal way, perhaps with some ship leaving the harbour close to his home. From there timber was exported to other european countries.

At that time he would have needed a permission even for travelling to other areas in Finland.

He was not allowed to travel back to Finland either during the war.

Lets hope that I will get the suggested documents from the archives, but according to the autoreply I have got it can take several weeks.

Thanks so far, all of you, for your valuable input./ Tom

[dn27264]

Hi Tom,

I have taken a closer look at the naturalisation documents, and found the following (under the section 'How to Obtain Copies):

Please note that the following conditions apply:

- Each application for copies must be submitted on an Access to Information Request Form [www.tbs-sct.gc.ca/tbsf-fsct/350-57-eng.asp] by a Canadian citizen or an individual living in Canada.
- Fee: $5.00, payable to the Receiver General for Canada.
- The request must be accompanied by a signed consent from the person concerned or proof that he/she has been deceased 20 years. Proof of death can be a copy of a death record, a newspaper obituary or a photograph of the gravestone showing name and death date.
- The request should include the following information: surname, given name, date and place of birth, and, if known, the number of the naturalization certificate including the alphabetic Series identifier and the "F" suffix if the certificate was issued in French. Specify that you want copies of the original documents.

The person requesting the naturalisation documents needs to be a Canadian citizen or living in Canada. Also, one needs proof of death. So, this is what I recommend:

I live in Ottawa and work only a few blocks from Immigration and Citizenship Canada's office on Laurier Avenue. I can fill in the Access to Information Form on William Winquist and deliver it to the office in person. However, you would need to scan and e-mail me the copy of William's death registration that you got from Vital Statistics in British Columbia, which would accompany the application.

You are correct, my understanding is that it can take as long as four weeks to obtain the documents. While the wait might be long, the information in the documents will be invaluable. I know that applicants for naturalisation were asked why they wanted to be naturalised, so you'll get Hjalmar's answer in his own words, which is bound to be very interesting.

If you would like me to obtain the documents for you then just let me know. Again, it's not a problem as I pass by that office every day on my way to work. You can also e-mail me directly as [email protected] if it's easier.

Erik

[dn27264]

Hi Tom,

Something else I just discovered about Hjalmar. I know that there is information on Hjalmar's estate housed with the Royal British Columbia Museum. However, just out of curiosity I did a search on him to see if there was anything about him in the National Archives here in Ottawa (the same Archives that houses a record of his naturalisation, with the actual records held by Immigration and Citizenship Canada) and found that the National Archives also has a file on his estate, as follows:

Description found in Archives
Title : Winquist, William (Estate)
Arrangement structure: Show Arrangement Structure File part of
Case files [textual record] (R1213-17-4-E)
Date(s) 1947/11-1949/04
Place of creation: No place, unknown, or undetermined
Extent Inventory no.: 117-3
Conditions of access
File no. (creator) 49046 Textual records 32: Restricted by law Volume
1328 90: Open Former archival reference no. RG117-A-1 Finding aid no. 117-15

So, what this tells me is that the National Government in Ottawa got involved for some reason in the settling of his estate in British Columbia. It could be because it happened in 1946 and Canada was still governed by the War Measure Act (as a result of the Second World War). I have seen this once before and it might be that someone (maybe family) from Norway or Finland made an inquiry into his estate, which would have been done through the Norwegian or Finnish embassy. I can't really say. This file would hold just as much information as the one that you have requested from the Province of British Columbia, but likely more, and could include correspondence between the Canadian government and the Norwegian or Finnish embassy or consulate.

Anyhow, just though that you would like to know. This information is also obtainable and this link shows the record (same information as above), but it also has a link (Copies and Reproductions) on how to go about obtaining copies.

http://collectionscanada.gc.ca/ourl/res ... m&lang=eng

All I can say is that it's not usual for the national government to hold estate files on people as the provincial governments usually have that responsibility, so there must be something of particular interest in this file.

Erik

[gj19135]

Tack Margit för din insats i detta fall.
Tills vidare tror jag nog att Thora besökte sin man i Chicago någon gång under åren 1907-1909. Varför skulle Bill ha ljugit för författaren Albert Viksten.
Men vilka vägar hon reste är inte lätt att veta. Hennes efternamn kan ju ha uppfattats olika som de exempel som framlagts Winqvist, Vinkvist, Winguest, Vinguist och hon kan ha använt vilket som helst av sina förnamn Anna , Thora, Tora eller Marie.
På något sätt borde hon ju ha kommit till Chicago och tillbaka till Norge . Ännu är jag inte beredd att helt ge upp. Hoppas att någon annan som läser detta på detta forum ännu orkar kämpa. Alla de nya uppgifter som jag hittills fått via detta forum visar på en helt otroligt stor vilja att hjälpa andra! Jag är imponerad eftersom jag är novis på området.
Tack till er allla!/ Tom

[gj19135]

Bästa Kari. Jag har helt glömt bort att tacka dig för din insats men det är bra att du kunde kolla för USA.
Känner du till om man på något vis kan kolla om Thora Winqvist eller Anna Thora Marie Oddestad ansökt om pass eller visum för en resa till Canada eller USA under åren 1907-1909
Det kunde ju också tyda på att hon var på väg dit.
Hälsn Tom

[gj19135]

Bästa DIS kamrater:
För ca 3 år sedan fick jag mycket hjälp med att leta efter Thora Winqvists svägerska Betsy Winqvist men nu har jag kört fast igen när det gäller hennes man Gideon Alfred Winqvist född 13.12.1880 i Finland som emigrerade först till Norge där han gifte sig med Betsy Cecilia Tvedt f.29.11.1890 från Bergen. De fick en dotter Ida och jag har under åren fått mycket uppgifter om hela familjen, som senare emigrerade till New Orleans. Det jag nu saknar är uppgifter på hur Gideon Alfred Winqvist dog.

Enligt uppgift blev han mördad någonstans vid Mexikanska kusten år 1927 och blev begravd där, men ingen av hans efterkommande verkar känna till var eller när det hände.

Gideon Alfred och hans familj var bosatta i New Orleans på 1021 Bordette Street.

Under åren 1925-26 var Alfred chief steward på ett i Honduras registrerat fartyg som hette SS Olancho som oftast gick mellan new York och Puerto Cortes i Honduras, med norskt befäl. Fartyget ägdes av Cuyamel Fruit Company Steamship Services med bas i New Orleans.

Hans fru flyttade senare till Chicago och illinois, men henne har jag redan alla uppgifter om.
De fick en dotterson som varit bosatt i New Port Jersey i Florida, men han verkar inte ha en aning om hela saken.
Kan någon av er ge mig tips om hur man kan leta efter uppgifter om Gideon Alfred Winqvists död? Någon form av redovisning bör rimligtvis ha lämnats till myndigheterna i New Orleans, men finns något arkiv kvar efter deras översvämningar?