Starting genealogy work...

[StevieKay]

....and I'm seeking a decent software program (preferably free) that
doesn't suck as many lemons as PAF5.2 - I'm quite unimpressed with it.
Its easily one of the least friendly programs I'd ever worked with -
and I've been using computers since my very first Commodore 64.

Any suggestions?

[Dave Hinz]

On 13 Dec 2004 11:22:21 -0800, StevieKay <[email protected]> wrote:

...and I'm seeking a decent software program (preferably free) that
doesn't suck as many lemons as PAF5.2 - I'm quite unimpressed with it.

Maybe you can ask for your money back, then.

Its easily one of the least friendly programs I'd ever worked with -
and I've been using computers since my very first Commodore 64.

That's odd, I've worked with computers since 1980 as well, and have
rarely found a program as intuitive, stable, and well documented as
PAF.

Any suggestions?

Yeah, instead of complaining in a vague way and badmouthing a damn fine
free product, maybe you could explain what you're trying to do and
what you're not finding a way to do.

What an odd way to introduce yourself to the group...

[Denis Beauregard]

On 13 Dec 2004 11:22:21 -0800, [email protected] (StevieKay) wrote
in soc.genealogy.computing:

...and I'm seeking a decent software program (preferably free) that
doesn't suck as many lemons as PAF5.2 - I'm quite unimpressed with it.
Its easily one of the least friendly programs I'd ever worked with -
and I've been using computers since my very first Commodore 64.

Any suggestions?

PAF is easy to use. What is your problem with it ?


Denis

[Gjest]

On 13 Dec 2004 11:22:21 -0800, [email protected] (StevieKay) wrote:

...and I'm seeking a decent software program (preferably free) that
doesn't suck as many lemons as PAF5.2 - I'm quite unimpressed with it.
Its easily one of the least friendly programs I'd ever worked with -
and I've been using computers since my very first Commodore 64.

Any suggestions?

Anyone who used a Commodore 64 didn't have much of a brain to begin
with. In the realm of FREE Genealogy programs, PAF is the most useful.

Now if you want to put some money where your mouth is, for detail you
won't beat The Master Genealogist. But, it's screens are cluttered and
it will never be totally compatible with anything else because of the
amount of data you can tripe into it.

Personally, I am sticking with Ancestral Quest until someone out there
writes something from scratch that is worth a damn and well written,
intuitive and complete.
At the current pace, hell will freeze over first.

[Charlie]

On 13 Dec 2004 11:22:21 -0800, [email protected] (StevieKay) wrote:

...and I'm seeking a decent software program (preferably free) that
doesn't suck as many lemons as PAF5.2 - I'm quite unimpressed with it.
Its easily one of the least friendly programs I'd ever worked with -
and I've been using computers since my very first Commodore 64.

Any suggestions?

Yes, either figure out how to use PAF, or buy a program that you find
"friendlier", or find another hobby.
Charlie Hoffpauir
http://freepages.genealogy.rootsweb.com/~charlieh/

[Gjest]

Alright...fair is fair...

In specifics, I'm trying to work in family name changes, like my
mothers'...who changed her name twice (maiden to my last name, to the
name of her new husband) but it doesnt' seem to show too well on the
screen.

I'm also finding the "website" feature to be very confusing, as well.
It would be nice to see something that would resemble a family tree in
the software, as well, even in HTML.

I think the problem here is that the program is way too complex for my
personal requirements. What I seek is something that I can list the
date of birth, death, marriage, lineage and such, and have it presented
in a fashion that makes a little more sense.

[Dave Hinz]

On 13 Dec 2004 15:12:09 -0800, [email protected] <[email protected]> wrote:

Alright...fair is fair...

In specifics, I'm trying to work in family name changes, like my
mothers'...who changed her name twice (maiden to my last name, to the
name of her new husband) but it doesnt' seem to show too well on the
screen.

Record her with her birth name, that's been a genealogy standard for a
long time. Notes are where later names go.

I'm also finding the "website" feature to be very confusing, as well.
It would be nice to see something that would resemble a family tree in
the software, as well, even in HTML.

Lots of gedcom to html programs out there. The one PAF generates is
usable, more so if you do an ancestry tree of an arbitrary person.

I think the problem here is that the program is way too complex for my
personal requirements. What I seek is something that I can list the
date of birth, death, marriage, lineage and such, and have it presented
in a fashion that makes a little more sense.

Are you talking data entry, or presentation? Entry, and Reporting, are
two very different questions.

[Gjest]

I think the problem here is that the program is way too complex for my
personal requirements. What I seek is something that I can list the
date of birth, death, marriage, lineage and such, and have it presented
in a fashion that makes a little more sense.

No the problem here is that you are an untrained whining novice. You
need to get your butt to the nearest resource for Genealogy Training
and hopefully one that offers a course in PAF. Though it's really not
that complex. You just don't understand the Genealogy "rules" enough
to understand what that program does to and for your data.

As far as printing HTML to Tree style pages, you have to get one of
the few programs that do that separately. Personally, I'll throw one
more punch at you. Leave your data off the internet. The only thing
you will achieve by placing it there is to allow every thieving
bastard to steal it, republish it and claim it as their own.

Novices ALWAYS want to share everything with everyone and Steal
everything FROM everyone. Well, AFTER you put DECADES into this hobby,
you'll have a much different perspective. So save yourself some heart
ache now and don't publish anything to the net.

Also, since you are obviously new to the game, don't buplish anything
on, Genealogy.com, Rootsweb.co, Ancestry.com, My Family.com as they
are all owned by the same company who steals everything you publish
and resells it back to people stupid enough to buy it.

Trade info piece by piece. You meet more quality people and have a lot
less ulcers.

PAF is about as idiot proof as you can get and you'll understand it
much more after taking a couple or three Genealogy classes.
Check you local Community College or School District for their
Continuing or Adult Education Offerings.

If all else fails pay someone to mentor you for a while.

[Hank Oredson]

<[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...

I think the problem here is that the program is way too complex for my
personal requirements. What I seek is something that I can list the
date of birth, death, marriage, lineage and such, and have it presented
in a fashion that makes a little more sense.

No the problem here is that you are an untrained whining novice. You
need to get your butt to the nearest resource for Genealogy Training
and hopefully one that offers a course in PAF. Though it's really not
that complex. You just don't understand the Genealogy "rules" enough
to understand what that program does to and for your data.

As far as printing HTML to Tree style pages, you have to get one of
the few programs that do that separately. Personally, I'll throw one
more punch at you. Leave your data off the internet. The only thing
you will achieve by placing it there is to allow every thieving
bastard to steal it, republish it and claim it as their own.

To avoid the percieved problem you could do what I do.
I put all the info on one of my web sites, password protected.
That way family members have access to it, but nobody else,
including spiders does. i.e. Google can't see it .. and neither can you.

Novices ALWAYS want to share everything with everyone and Steal
everything FROM everyone. Well, AFTER you put DECADES into this hobby,
you'll have a much different perspective. So save yourself some heart
ache now and don't publish anything to the net.

Also, since you are obviously new to the game, don't buplish anything
on, Genealogy.com, Rootsweb.co, Ancestry.com, My Family.com as they
are all owned by the same company who steals everything you publish
and resells it back to people stupid enough to buy it.

Trade info piece by piece. You meet more quality people and have a lot
less ulcers.

PAF is about as idiot proof as you can get and you'll understand it
much more after taking a couple or three Genealogy classes.
Check you local Community College or School District for their
Continuing or Adult Education Offerings.

If all else fails pay someone to mentor you for a while.

--

... Hank

http://horedson.home.att.net
http://w0rli.home.att.net

[Hugh Watkins]

laugh a minute here !

do DO share stuff
my cousins find me because I am on ancestry boards and in rootsweb groups

the many million ancestry dot com or so uk thinsk we get a wonderful service
in our own homes

you do have to learn to use any computer programme
start by reading the files from the help menu

I chose Family Tree Maker because it was in the store
and have stayed with it from versions 6 to 2005

get the single CD in a flack FTM "005
is excellent value for money and only $29.99

but again take the time to learn to use it
and join a local family history society or centre too

I found a birth mother for an adoptee via google
because her maiden name was on a bulletin board
placed there by a grand daughter

http://www.myfamilyinc.com/about_us/copyright.htm

Content which has been contributed to public area of the MyFamily.com,
Inc. sites by users remain the property of the submitter or the original
creator and we are a licensed distributor of such content.

you or your heirs may also delete it

http://www.myfamilyinc.com/index.htm

Corporate Overview

MyFamily.com, Inc.
MyFamily.com, Inc. is the leading online subscription business and the
leading network for connecting families.

A next-generation media company, MyFamily is focused on connecting families
with their histories and one another. The company provides both free and
paid subscription services through its network of Internet properties, with
the number of paid subscriptions increasing substantially each month.
Servicing over 600 million page views every month and consistently ranking
among the top 20 Internet properties, MyFamily.com's network of sites is a
key online destination for those interested in family history.

The Company also publishes Ancestry Magazine, Genealogical Computing
Magazine, Ancestry Family Tree software, over 50 book titles, the 1-2-3
Family Tree package, and databases on CD-ROM.<

Our Sites Ancestry.com RootsWeb.com Genealogy.com MyFamily.com
Ancestry.co.uk

learning center http://www.genealogy.com/genehelp.html
enjoy

Hugh W


<[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...

I think the problem here is that the program is way too complex for my
personal requirements. What I seek is something that I can list the
date of birth, death, marriage, lineage and such, and have it presented
in a fashion that makes a little more sense.

No the problem here is that you are an untrained whining novice. You
need to get your butt to the nearest resource for Genealogy Training
and hopefully one that offers a course in PAF. Though it's really not
that complex. You just don't understand the Genealogy "rules" enough
to understand what that program does to and for your data.

As far as printing HTML to Tree style pages, you have to get one of
the few programs that do that separately. Personally, I'll throw one
more punch at you. Leave your data off the internet. The only thing
you will achieve by placing it there is to allow every thieving
bastard to steal it, republish it and claim it as their own.

Novices ALWAYS want to share everything with everyone and Steal
everything FROM everyone. Well, AFTER you put DECADES into this hobby,
you'll have a much different perspective. So save yourself some heart
ache now and don't publish anything to the net.

Also, since you are obviously new to the game, don't buplish anything
on, Genealogy.com, Rootsweb.co, Ancestry.com, My Family.com as they
are all owned by the same company who steals everything you publish
and resells it back to people stupid enough to buy it.

Trade info piece by piece. You meet more quality people and have a lot
less ulcers.

PAF is about as idiot proof as you can get and you'll understand it
much more after taking a couple or three Genealogy classes.
Check you local Community College or School District for their
Continuing or Adult Education Offerings.

If all else fails pay someone to mentor you for a while.

[cecilia]

[email protected] wrote:

[...] I'm trying to work in family name changes, like my
mothers'...who changed her name twice (maiden to my last name, to the
name of her new husband) but it doesnt' seem to show too well on the
screen. [...]
It would be nice to see something that would resemble a family tree in
the software, as well, even in HTML.
[...]What I seek is something that I can list the
date of birth, death, marriage, lineage and such, and have it presented
in a fashion that makes a little more sense.

Most people find that Entry and Reporting require two programs using
Gedcom as the linking file format.

Not all "bells and whistles" transfer well with Gedcom. I find basic
(birth, marriages, death), with notes and sources, is usually OK.

You might find Legacy (http://www.legacyfamilytree.com/) more compatible
than PAF for entry.

Consider http://www.dftcom2.co.uk/ for quick and easy electronic output,
or http://www.genopro.com/ for all-in-one (but the topology of the chart
can require adjustment after creation).

If you have a feel for what a chart should look like (because of
experience on paper), for long-term charts you may end up getting
descendants' reports from the program and drawing your own charts - I
use Powerpoint for this.

[Ron Parsons]

In article <[email protected]>, [email protected]
wrote:

I think the problem here is that the program is way too complex for my
personal requirements. What I seek is something that I can list the
date of birth, death, marriage, lineage and such, and have it presented
in a fashion that makes a little more sense.

No the problem here is that you are an untrained whining novice. You
need to get your butt to the nearest resource for Genealogy Training
and hopefully one that offers a course in PAF. Though it's really not
that complex. You just don't understand the Genealogy "rules" enough
to understand what that program does to and for your data.

Please accept at least this one apology for rudeness. Most here share
our toys.

There are methods to set a newsgroup reader to see no more posts from
such posters as I have just done.

--
Ron Parsons

[singhals]

StevieKay wrote:

...and I'm seeking a decent software program (preferably free) that
doesn't suck as many lemons as PAF5.2 - I'm quite unimpressed with it.
Its easily one of the least friendly programs I'd ever worked with -
and I've been using computers since my very first Commodore 64.

Any suggestions?

Back off to the earliest free d/l you can find on familysearch. PAF 2.2
and 2.31 were the most user-friendly programs I've ever encountered,
since they were written for your great-aunt-Matilda who hasn't yet
adjusted to electric typewriters.

Cheryl who thinks the C-64 is a newcomer

[Gjest]

Thank you for the advice...genealogy is something that's pretty big in
my church.

I don't plan on publishing my results online, for the simple reason
that I doubt that my family would like any publicity. We're pretty
closed group of individuals...and with exception of my brother, I'm the
only one who does any web based publishing and research.

But I do hope to get further into this; it's quite interesting to learn
about family history.

QUESTION for those who can answer it: I found some people online who
shared my last name who lived in Kentucky back in the the very late
1890s. Now, we share an un-common last name, so would it be improper to
add them to my list, but not link them to anyone, since I don't know
who they are?

[Joe Makowiec]

On 14 Dec 2004 in soc.genealogy.computing, wrote:

I don't plan on publishing my results online, for the simple reason
that I doubt that my family would like any publicity. We're pretty
closed group of individuals...and with exception of my brother, I'm
the only one who does any web based publishing and research.

One big advantage to publishing online is that people will find you. I
have half a dozen cousins I correspond with semi-regularly because they
found my site by googling a family (sur)name and the town we're from.

QUESTION for those who can answer it: I found some people online who
shared my last name who lived in Kentucky back in the the very late
1890s. Now, we share an un-common last name, so would it be improper
to add them to my list, but not link them to anyone, since I don't
know who they are?

Sounds like you're starting a one-name study. You could look at the
Guild of One Name Studies (GOONS) http://www.one-name.org/ to see if
they have any advice on doing one, or if anybody is already doing your
name.

I've had great success in one of my lines by corresponding with a
distant cousin who's doing a one-name study on that surname.

So yes, by all means include them. Just don't assume that they're
related until you make a connection.

Back to your original question:
Whatever you do, make /sure/ that whatever software you select has the
ability to record sources in detail. You'll hate yourself if you
don't. I personally use The Master Genealogist (TMG;
http://whollygenes.com/) because, IMHO, its ability to record sources
is superior.

--
Joe Makowiec
http://makowiec.org/
Email: http://makowiec.org/contact/?Joe

[Lesley Robertson]

"Joe Makowiec" <[email protected]> schreef in bericht
news:[email protected]...

On 14 Dec 2004 in soc.genealogy.computing, wrote:

I don't plan on publishing my results online, for the simple reason
that I doubt that my family would like any publicity. We're pretty
closed group of individuals...and with exception of my brother, I'm
the only one who does any web based publishing and research.

One big advantage to publishing online is that people will find you. I
have half a dozen cousins I correspond with semi-regularly because they
found my site by googling a family (sur)name and the town we're from.

QUESTION for those who can answer it: I found some people online who
shared my last name who lived in Kentucky back in the the very late
1890s. Now, we share an un-common last name, so would it be improper
to add them to my list, but not link them to anyone, since I don't
know who they are?

Sounds like you're starting a one-name study. You could look at the
Guild of One Name Studies (GOONS) http://www.one-name.org/ to see if
they have any advice on doing one, or if anybody is already doing your
name.

There's been a lot of discussion about the pros and cons of one-name studies

on soc.genealogy.britain this week.. If you're really considering something
like that, it might be worth having a look.
I must admit that I wouldn't advise someone to do an ONS until they've had a
chance to build up some experience in data searching, evaluation, etc.
Lesley Robertson

[Hugh Watkins]

"Lesley Robertson" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...

"Joe Makowiec" <[email protected]> schreef in bericht
news:[email protected]...
On 14 Dec 2004 in soc.genealogy.computing, wrote:

I don't plan on publishing my results online, for the simple reason
that I doubt that my family would like any publicity. We're pretty
closed group of individuals...and with exception of my brother, I'm
the only one who does any web based publishing and research.

One big advantage to publishing online is that people will find you. I
have half a dozen cousins I correspond with semi-regularly because they
found my site by googling a family (sur)name and the town we're from.

QUESTION for those who can answer it: I found some people online who
shared my last name who lived in Kentucky back in the the very late
1890s. Now, we share an un-common last name, so would it be improper
to add them to my list, but not link them to anyone, since I don't
know who they are?

Sounds like you're starting a one-name study. You could look at the
Guild of One Name Studies (GOONS) http://www.one-name.org/ to see if
they have any advice on doing one, or if anybody is already doing your
name.

There's been a lot of discussion about the pros and cons of one-name
studies on soc.genealogy.britain this week.. If you're really considering
something like that, it might be worth having a look.
I must admit that I wouldn't advise someone to do an ONS until they've had
a chance to build up some experience in data searching, evaluation, etc.

A one name study needs database software
you collect facts and find connections afterwards

http://custodian3.co.uk/
has a set of good templates

read the site http://www.one-name.org/

but you don't need to be a member

http://www.one-name.org/intro.html

How do I start a one-name study?

You may find it useful to start by finding out how rare or how common your
name really is, and how it is distributed through the country you live in
today, and later, throughout the world.
You then need to start collecting information on a systematic basis. Many of
the sources you will use are the same as those used by other genealogists.
However you will be undertaking a more structured and detailed search. You
will need significant commitment for this.<<
Big names http://genealogy.about.com/library/week ... rnames.htm
don't even think of it !!
use http://www.taliesin-arlein.net/names/search.php

THIS DATABASE is an extract of an Office of National Statistics database,

and contains a list of surnames in use in England, Wales and the Isle of
Mann in September 2002. The list contains almost 270,000 surnames, shared by
54.4 million people. The entire database contains over a million surnames,
shared by 55.9 million people, but names shared by fewer that five people
have been excluded from this list. The database was established in 1998, and
births are continually added, but the 1.5 million deaths between 1998 and
2002 have not been weeded from the system. The database is also said to
include a level of duplicate entries and misspelt surnames, as well as
people currently living abroad and temporary visitors to England and Wales.
However, experience suggests that multiplying the result for your surname by
0.93 will give a good idea of the living population for your surname, and
multiplying by 3.5 will give the population since the start of parish
registers in the 16th century.
<<
I taker 4

LAPHAM is my mother's maiden name

Surname Count = Ranking in UK
LAPHAM 548 =10573

but there are about 15 000 in USA so a study is not practical for one person
to manage

Hugh W

[J SCHWARTZ]

I have an old friend who, after becoming housebound from a stroke, heart
attack and diabetes, took up collecting records on his last name. I think
he does this most of the day, and entirely online. He has never been to any
archive nor does he get any printed validation to my knowledge. It's all
from people who contact him to be included because they have the same name.
I wouldn't discourage him for the world,because it's really all that
motivates him, but it's so different from the kind of research I do. I
think he has collected something like 40000-60000 records and they are
somewhere on the web!

jo

"Lesley Robertson" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...

"Joe Makowiec" <[email protected]> schreef in bericht
news:[email protected]...
On 14 Dec 2004 in soc.genealogy.computing, wrote:

I don't plan on publishing my results online, for the simple reason
that I doubt that my family would like any publicity. We're pretty
closed group of individuals...and with exception of my brother, I'm
the only one who does any web based publishing and research.

One big advantage to publishing online is that people will find you. I
have half a dozen cousins I correspond with semi-regularly because they
found my site by googling a family (sur)name and the town we're from.

QUESTION for those who can answer it: I found some people online who
shared my last name who lived in Kentucky back in the the very late
1890s. Now, we share an un-common last name, so would it be improper
to add them to my list, but not link them to anyone, since I don't
know who they are?

Sounds like you're starting a one-name study. You could look at the
Guild of One Name Studies (GOONS) http://www.one-name.org/ to see if
they have any advice on doing one, or if anybody is already doing your
name.

There's been a lot of discussion about the pros and cons of one-name
studies
on soc.genealogy.britain this week.. If you're really considering
something
like that, it might be worth having a look.
I must admit that I wouldn't advise someone to do an ONS until they've had
a
chance to build up some experience in data searching, evaluation, etc.
Lesley Robertson

[Steve Hayes]

On Wed, 15 Dec 2004 00:17:07 -0000, "Hugh Watkins" <[email protected]>
wrote:

A one name study needs database software
you collect facts and find connections afterwards

http://custodian3.co.uk/
has a set of good templates

How does Clooz compare with it for that purpose?

I tried using MS Access, but it keeps messing up dates -- I entered someone's
birthdate as 1926, and it changed it to 2026 without so much as a
by-your-leave. And no matter how many times I retyped it, it kept changing it.

In genealogical work that's not a trivial bug.



--
Steve Hayes from Tshwane, South Africa
http://www.geocities.com/Athens/7734/stevesig.htm
E-mail - see web page, or parse: shayes at dunelm full stop org full stop uk

[Paul Blair]

Steve Hayes wrote:

On Wed, 15 Dec 2004 00:17:07 -0000, "Hugh Watkins" <[email protected]
wrote:


A one name study needs database software
you collect facts and find connections afterwards

http://custodian3.co.uk/
has a set of good templates


How does Clooz compare with it for that purpose?

I tried using MS Access, but it keeps messing up dates -- I entered someone's
birthdate as 1926, and it changed it to 2026 without so much as a
by-your-leave. And no matter how many times I retyped it, it kept changing it.

In genealogical work that's not a trivial bug.



You can easily alter this by going to the Regional and Language settings

in Windows Control Panel. Choose Regional Options, click on Customize,
and amend to suit.

Paul Blair
Canberra Australia

[charles wall]

Hi, how I have worked this out over the years is...I put out queries on
all boards looking for all Treadwells(this is the main line I am working
on)...I tell them I have a large data base and would be most happy to
swap info....but be careful do not send out your info before you receive
theirs...Had many not send their info after receiving mine...I have a
web page and recommend you do that also(mine has had over 26,000 hits in
5-6 years) put family stories on it but no data..
I tell all I am most happy to exchange data with family members and help
them and it will not be published as the wishes of all is that it be
kept private for all family members...And it works...I now have over
65,000 in the database and it only took 10 years
I tell them I need to check their info against what I have and I will
enter theirs if it is OK and send the whole file of their ancestors back
to them(as far as I can go with their line) Hope this gives you some
ideas...Charlie(plus you see I have a 150 members mailing list at present)
--

SUBSCRIBE FOR FREE TO THE TREADWELL MAILING LIST NOW!
-----------------------------------------------------
Charles A. Wall Jr.
1711 Wind Harbor Road
Orlando, Fl. 32809
407-857-8403
E-mail [email protected]
-----------------------------------------------------
Treadwell/Tredwell Family History Web Pages

Http://home.att.net/~c.walljr
Http://freepages.genealogy.rootsweb.com/~treadwell/
------------------------------------------------------

[Charlie]

On Wed, 15 Dec 2004 06:11:26 GMT, [email protected] (Steve Hayes)
wrote:

On Wed, 15 Dec 2004 00:17:07 -0000, "Hugh Watkins" <[email protected]
wrote:

A one name study needs database software
you collect facts and find connections afterwards

http://custodian3.co.uk/
has a set of good templates

How does Clooz compare with it for that purpose?

I tried using MS Access, but it keeps messing up dates -- I entered someone's
birthdate as 1926, and it changed it to 2026 without so much as a
by-your-leave. And no matter how many times I retyped it, it kept changing it.

In genealogical work that's not a trivial bug.

I've seen this "bug" about Access posted before, perhaps by you. The
only time this can happen is if you're set up for entering the year as
a 2 digit entry, with Access converting it to the 4 digit form. Real
genealogists always enter the year as 4 digits.
I have several GB of genealogy data in Access, and have never seen
Access convert any date to anything other than what was entered.
Charlie Hoffpauir
http://freepages.genealogy.rootsweb.com/~charlieh/

[Allen]

Charlie wrote:

On Wed, 15 Dec 2004 06:11:26 GMT, [email protected] (Steve Hayes)
wrote:


On Wed, 15 Dec 2004 00:17:07 -0000, "Hugh Watkins" <[email protected]
wrote:


A one name study needs database software
you collect facts and find connections afterwards

http://custodian3.co.uk/
has a set of good templates

How does Clooz compare with it for that purpose?

I tried using MS Access, but it keeps messing up dates -- I entered someone's
birthdate as 1926, and it changed it to 2026 without so much as a
by-your-leave. And no matter how many times I retyped it, it kept changing it.

In genealogical work that's not a trivial bug.


I've seen this "bug" about Access posted before, perhaps by you. The
only time this can happen is if you're set up for entering the year as
a 2 digit entry, with Access converting it to the 4 digit form. Real
genealogists always enter the year as 4 digits.
I have several GB of genealogy data in Access, and have never seen
Access convert any date to anything other than what was entered.
Charlie Hoffpauir

Access is a general-purpose data base system, designed for ease of use
in the majority of applications and by the vast majority of its users.
(Disclaimer: I think it missed the boat in both cases, but that was the
intention of the designers.) Genealogy is a highly specialized data
base use, and in my opinion it is better to use a system especially
tailored for genealogists; some, of course, are built on Access, but the
defaults in Access have been overridden by the designers. Just because
one has a particular program doesn't mean that one should use that
program for everything. I remember back when some of my co-workers used
Lotus 1-2-3 for word processing! There is an ancient saying, dating all
the way back to the late 1970s: "When all you have is a hammer,
everything looks like a nail".
Allen

[Gjest]

In Access you create a Day Field a Month Field and a Year field

They they can either be number or text depending on if you want to do
math with them or not.

Never use a date field as Access doesn't allow for incomplete dates.
Dates in Access Date Fields are not entered in pure form.

[Steve Hayes]

On Wed, 15 Dec 2004 21:10:13 +1100, Paul Blair <[email protected]> wrote:

Steve Hayes wrote:
On Wed, 15 Dec 2004 00:17:07 -0000, "Hugh Watkins" <[email protected]
wrote:


A one name study needs database software
you collect facts and find connections afterwards

http://custodian3.co.uk/
has a set of good templates


How does Clooz compare with it for that purpose?

I tried using MS Access, but it keeps messing up dates -- I entered someone's
birthdate as 1926, and it changed it to 2026 without so much as a
by-your-leave. And no matter how many times I retyped it, it kept changing it.

In genealogical work that's not a trivial bug.



You can easily alter this by going to the Regional and Language settings
in Windows Control Panel. Choose Regional Options, click on Customize,
and amend to suit.

Suit what?

It clearly doesn't like my present settings.

Must I opt for American dates?


--
Steve Hayes from Tshwane, South Africa
http://www.geocities.com/Athens/7734/stevesig.htm
E-mail - see web page, or parse: shayes at dunelm full stop org full stop uk

[Steve Hayes]

On Wed, 15 Dec 2004 08:49:20 -0600, Charlie <[email protected]> wrote:

On Wed, 15 Dec 2004 06:11:26 GMT, [email protected] (Steve Hayes)
wrote:

On Wed, 15 Dec 2004 00:17:07 -0000, "Hugh Watkins" <[email protected]
wrote:

A one name study needs database software
you collect facts and find connections afterwards

http://custodian3.co.uk/
has a set of good templates

How does Clooz compare with it for that purpose?

I tried using MS Access, but it keeps messing up dates -- I entered someone's
birthdate as 1926, and it changed it to 2026 without so much as a
by-your-leave. And no matter how many times I retyped it, it kept changing it.

In genealogical work that's not a trivial bug.

I've seen this "bug" about Access posted before, perhaps by you. The
only time this can happen is if you're set up for entering the year as
a 2 digit entry, with Access converting it to the 4 digit form. Real
genealogists always enter the year as 4 digits.

I did enter the date as a 4 digit year. Acces changed the first two digits.

I have several GB of genealogy data in Access, and have never seen
Access convert any date to anything other than what was entered.

You're lucky then. But can you be SURE?



--
Steve Hayes from Tshwane, South Africa
http://www.geocities.com/Athens/7734/stevesig.htm
E-mail - see web page, or parse: shayes at dunelm full stop org full stop uk

[Paul Blair]

Steve Hayes wrote:

On Wed, 15 Dec 2004 21:10:13 +1100, Paul Blair <[email protected]> wrote:


Steve Hayes wrote:

On Wed, 15 Dec 2004 00:17:07 -0000, "Hugh Watkins" <[email protected]
wrote:



A one name study needs database software
you collect facts and find connections afterwards

http://custodian3.co.uk/
has a set of good templates


How does Clooz compare with it for that purpose?

I tried using MS Access, but it keeps messing up dates -- I entered someone's
birthdate as 1926, and it changed it to 2026 without so much as a
by-your-leave. And no matter how many times I retyped it, it kept changing it.

In genealogical work that's not a trivial bug.




You can easily alter this by going to the Regional and Language settings
in Windows Control Panel. Choose Regional Options, click on Customize,
and amend to suit.


Suit what?

It clearly doesn't like my present settings.

Must I opt for American dates?


You need to do some work. Firstly, reset your Windows date options for

non-American format. You do this from Control Panel. Do as I suggested
before, then go down to Short Date Format and enter something like
d-MMM-yyyy. Fix Long format in a similar way. This gives "English" format.

Then fix your database. Here's a clue...

Microsoft Access has two options that force Date fields and controls to
display four-digit years. One option (This database) forces the display
of four-digit years at the database-level in a particular database or
project. The other option (All databases) forces the display of
four-digit years at the application-level in all databases and projects.

The reason for these options is to make sure the user is aware of which
century is used. These options only affect the format of the date.
Access stores dates as serial numbers. For example, when you type the
date 4/16/50 (April 16, 1950) it is actually stored as the serial number
18369. The date April 16, 2050 is stored as the serial number 54894.

To access these two options from the Access user interface, on the Tools
menu, click Options, and then click the General tab. In the Use
four-digit year formatting area, the This database check box controls
the database-level option and the All databases check box controls the
application-level option.

If either of these options is set, Access overrides the specified date
format to show a four-digit year. The year portion of the date is the
only part affected. Other parts of the date still rely on the Windows
Regional Settings and Date formats.

The database-level option is stored in the Microsoft Access database
(MDB) or Microsoft Access project (ADP). This allows developers to
deliver year 2000-compliant applications regardless of the user's
Regional Settings.

Access is not the best choice for genealogy work, because not all dates
are complete. So if you have some sort of a d-m-y or m-d-y format,
that's what you have to enter. Dates like c.1850 (an approx. date) don't
work.

MS put out a genealogy template at one time. In it, all dates were text
fields, so you could pretty well enter what you pleased. But this
deprived you of calendar functions (how old was Fred when he died?). The
way around this is to set up 3 fields (one for day, one for month, one
for year) and do a whole lot of manipulation to make it readable.

Paul Blair
Canberra Australia

[Charlie]

On Wed, 15 Dec 2004 19:05:05 GMT, [email protected] (Steve Hayes)
wrote:

<snip>

I've seen this "bug" about Access posted before, perhaps by you. The
only time this can happen is if you're set up for entering the year as
a 2 digit entry, with Access converting it to the 4 digit form. Real
genealogists always enter the year as 4 digits.

I did enter the date as a 4 digit year. Acces changed the first two digits.

I have several GB of genealogy data in Access, and have never seen
Access convert any date to anything other than what was entered.

You're lucky then. But can you be SURE?

I'm as sure as I am of anyhting that's in any way connected to
Microsoft <g>, so I always have multiple backups.

But I'm very curious as to what is happening on your system. Is this
an entry directly into an Access table, or through an Access form? Is
tha actual data altered, or just the output formatting? Is it possible
to send me a copy of whatever is doing this, so I could see if it
happens on my system too? (I can receive attachments at my Yahoo mail
box: charliehoffp at yahoo dot com)
Charlie Hoffpauir
http://freepages.genealogy.rootsweb.com/~charlieh/

[Allen]

Paul Blair wrote:

Steve Hayes wrote:

On Wed, 15 Dec 2004 21:10:13 +1100, Paul Blair <[email protected]
wrote:


Steve Hayes wrote:

On Wed, 15 Dec 2004 00:17:07 -0000, "Hugh Watkins"
[email protected]
wrote:



A one name study needs database software
you collect facts and find connections afterwards

http://custodian3.co.uk/
has a set of good templates



How does Clooz compare with it for that purpose?

I tried using MS Access, but it keeps messing up dates -- I entered
someone's
birthdate as 1926, and it changed it to 2026 without so much as a
by-your-leave. And no matter how many times I retyped it, it kept
changing it.

In genealogical work that's not a trivial bug.



You can easily alter this by going to the Regional and Language
settings in Windows Control Panel. Choose Regional Options, click on
Customize, and amend to suit.



Suit what?

It clearly doesn't like my present settings.
Must I opt for American dates?


You need to do some work. Firstly, reset your Windows date options for
non-American format. You do this from Control Panel. Do as I suggested
before, then go down to Short Date Format and enter something like
d-MMM-yyyy. Fix Long format in a similar way. This gives "English" format.

Then fix your database. Here's a clue...

Microsoft Access has two options that force Date fields and controls to
display four-digit years. One option (This database) forces the display
of four-digit years at the database-level in a particular database or
project. The other option (All databases) forces the display of
four-digit years at the application-level in all databases and projects.

The reason for these options is to make sure the user is aware of which
century is used. These options only affect the format of the date.
Access stores dates as serial numbers. For example, when you type the
date 4/16/50 (April 16, 1950) it is actually stored as the serial number
18369. The date April 16, 2050 is stored as the serial number 54894.

To access these two options from the Access user interface, on the Tools
menu, click Options, and then click the General tab. In the Use
four-digit year formatting area, the This database check box controls
the database-level option and the All databases check box controls the
application-level option.

If either of these options is set, Access overrides the specified date
format to show a four-digit year. The year portion of the date is the
only part affected. Other parts of the date still rely on the Windows
Regional Settings and Date formats.

The database-level option is stored in the Microsoft Access database
(MDB) or Microsoft Access project (ADP). This allows developers to
deliver year 2000-compliant applications regardless of the user's
Regional Settings.

Access is not the best choice for genealogy work, because not all dates
are complete. So if you have some sort of a d-m-y or m-d-y format,
that's what you have to enter. Dates like c.1850 (an approx. date) don't
work.

MS put out a genealogy template at one time. In it, all dates were text
fields, so you could pretty well enter what you pleased. But this
deprived you of calendar functions (how old was Fred when he died?). The
way around this is to set up 3 fields (one for day, one for month, one
for year) and do a whole lot of manipulation to make it readable.

Paul Blair
Canberra Australia

Are you perhaps saying that an Access user should do something as far
out as to read the manual? Unbelievable! Get real, mate!
Allen

[Paul Blair]

Allen wrote:

Paul Blair wrote:

Steve Hayes wrote:

On Wed, 15 Dec 2004 21:10:13 +1100, Paul Blair <[email protected]
wrote:


Steve Hayes wrote:

On Wed, 15 Dec 2004 00:17:07 -0000, "Hugh Watkins"
[email protected]
wrote:



A one name study needs database software
you collect facts and find connections afterwards

http://custodian3.co.uk/
has a set of good templates




How does Clooz compare with it for that purpose?

I tried using MS Access, but it keeps messing up dates -- I entered
someone's
birthdate as 1926, and it changed it to 2026 without so much as a
by-your-leave. And no matter how many times I retyped it, it kept
changing it.

In genealogical work that's not a trivial bug.



You can easily alter this by going to the Regional and Language
settings in Windows Control Panel. Choose Regional Options, click on
Customize, and amend to suit.




Suit what?

It clearly doesn't like my present settings.
Must I opt for American dates?


You need to do some work. Firstly, reset your Windows date options for
non-American format. You do this from Control Panel. Do as I suggested
before, then go down to Short Date Format and enter something like
d-MMM-yyyy. Fix Long format in a similar way. This gives "English"
format.

Then fix your database. Here's a clue...

Microsoft Access has two options that force Date fields and controls
to display four-digit years. One option (This database) forces the
display of four-digit years at the database-level in a particular
database or project. The other option (All databases) forces the
display of four-digit years at the application-level in all databases
and projects.

The reason for these options is to make sure the user is aware of
which century is used. These options only affect the format of the
date. Access stores dates as serial numbers. For example, when you
type the date 4/16/50 (April 16, 1950) it is actually stored as the
serial number 18369. The date April 16, 2050 is stored as the serial
number 54894.

To access these two options from the Access user interface, on the
Tools menu, click Options, and then click the General tab. In the Use
four-digit year formatting area, the This database check box controls
the database-level option and the All databases check box controls the
application-level option.

If either of these options is set, Access overrides the specified date
format to show a four-digit year. The year portion of the date is the
only part affected. Other parts of the date still rely on the Windows
Regional Settings and Date formats.

The database-level option is stored in the Microsoft Access database
(MDB) or Microsoft Access project (ADP). This allows developers to
deliver year 2000-compliant applications regardless of the user's
Regional Settings.

Access is not the best choice for genealogy work, because not all
dates are complete. So if you have some sort of a d-m-y or m-d-y
format, that's what you have to enter. Dates like c.1850 (an approx.
date) don't work.

MS put out a genealogy template at one time. In it, all dates were
text fields, so you could pretty well enter what you pleased. But this
deprived you of calendar functions (how old was Fred when he died?).
The way around this is to set up 3 fields (one for day, one for month,
one for year) and do a whole lot of manipulation to make it readable.

Paul Blair
Canberra Australia


Are you perhaps saying that an Access user should do something as far
out as to read the manual? Unbelievable! Get real, mate!
Allen

Well, as Access has become more arcane and convoluted, there isn't much

option (other than to give up using it).

Actually, I did a couple of programs a disfavour. One is Legacy, so
apologies to them. Legacy is Access-based, and you can do as you wish
with dates. Legacy stores both a long and short form, something along
the lines of 19400623, which is 23 Jun 1940. There will be a lot of
behind-the-scenes fiddling to translate back and forth to forms and
reports, but it works fine.

So if you want to do it yourself, be prepared for a bit of programming...

Paul Blair
still in Canberra

[Steve Hayes]

On Thu, 16 Dec 2004 07:02:38 +1100, Paul Blair <[email protected]> wrote:

Steve Hayes wrote:
On Wed, 15 Dec 2004 21:10:13 +1100, Paul Blair <[email protected]> wrote:
You can easily alter this by going to the Regional and Language settings
in Windows Control Panel. Choose Regional Options, click on Customize,
and amend to suit.


Suit what?

It clearly doesn't like my present settings.

Must I opt for American dates?


You need to do some work. Firstly, reset your Windows date options for
non-American format. You do this from Control Panel. Do as I suggested
before, then go down to Short Date Format and enter something like
d-MMM-yyyy. Fix Long format in a similar way. This gives "English" format.

Then fix your database. Here's a clue...

Microsoft Access has two options that force Date fields and controls to
display four-digit years. One option (This database) forces the display
of four-digit years at the database-level in a particular database or
project. The other option (All databases) forces the display of
four-digit years at the application-level in all databases and projects.

The reason for these options is to make sure the user is aware of which
century is used. These options only affect the format of the date.
Access stores dates as serial numbers. For example, when you type the
date 4/16/50 (April 16, 1950) it is actually stored as the serial number
18369. The date April 16, 2050 is stored as the serial number 54894.

To access these two options from the Access user interface, on the Tools
menu, click Options, and then click the General tab. In the Use
four-digit year formatting area, the This database check box controls
the database-level option and the All databases check box controls the
application-level option.

If either of these options is set, Access overrides the specified date
format to show a four-digit year. The year portion of the date is the
only part affected. Other parts of the date still rely on the Windows
Regional Settings and Date formats.

The database-level option is stored in the Microsoft Access database
(MDB) or Microsoft Access project (ADP). This allows developers to
deliver year 2000-compliant applications regardless of the user's
Regional Settings.

Access is not the best choice for genealogy work, because not all dates
are complete. So if you have some sort of a d-m-y or m-d-y format,
that's what you have to enter. Dates like c.1850 (an approx. date) don't
work.

MS put out a genealogy template at one time. In it, all dates were text
fields, so you could pretty well enter what you pleased. But this
deprived you of calendar functions (how old was Fred when he died?). The
way around this is to set up 3 fields (one for day, one for month, one
for year) and do a whole lot of manipulation to make it readable.

I'll try it and see what happens.

I used to use both kinds of fields in Paradox, but my Paradox 4.5 doesn't seem
to work in Windows 98.

Where I noticed it was in a database created by one of the templates that came
with Access, and no matter how many times I typed the person's birthdate as
1926, it changed it to 2026. I thought I had set things to 4-figure dates, but
I'll check again.

Had a similar problem with Lotus organizer - it kept changing 3 Sep to 9 Mar
and vice versa. Eventually I found a free PIM program called Kaboom that works
better.





--
Steve Hayes from Tshwane, South Africa
http://www.geocities.com/Athens/7734/stevesig.htm
E-mail - see web page, or parse: shayes at dunelm full stop org full stop uk

[Steve Hayes]

On Wed, 15 Dec 2004 14:29:08 -0600, Charlie <[email protected]> wrote:

On Wed, 15 Dec 2004 19:05:05 GMT, [email protected] (Steve Hayes)
wrote:

snip
I've seen this "bug" about Access posted before, perhaps by you. The
only time this can happen is if you're set up for entering the year as
a 2 digit entry, with Access converting it to the 4 digit form. Real
genealogists always enter the year as 4 digits.

I did enter the date as a 4 digit year. Acces changed the first two digits.

I have several GB of genealogy data in Access, and have never seen
Access convert any date to anything other than what was entered.

You're lucky then. But can you be SURE?

I'm as sure as I am of anyhting that's in any way connected to
Microsoft <g>, so I always have multiple backups.

But I'm very curious as to what is happening on your system. Is this
an entry directly into an Access table, or through an Access form? Is
tha actual data altered, or just the output formatting? Is it possible
to send me a copy of whatever is doing this, so I could see if it
happens on my system too? (I can receive attachments at my Yahoo mail
box: charliehoffp at yahoo dot com)

Thanks - I'll try to send the .mdb file. I'd be interested to see how it works
on your system.


--
Steve Hayes from Tshwane, South Africa
http://www.geocities.com/Athens/7734/stevesig.htm
E-mail - see web page, or parse: shayes at dunelm full stop org full stop uk

[Steve Hayes]

On Thu, 16 Dec 2004 07:02:38 +1100, Paul Blair <[email protected]> wrote:

The reason for these options is to make sure the user is aware of which
century is used. These options only affect the format of the date.
Access stores dates as serial numbers. For example, when you type the
date 4/16/50 (April 16, 1950) it is actually stored as the serial number
18369. The date April 16, 2050 is stored as the serial number 54894.

To access these two options from the Access user interface, on the Tools
menu, click Options, and then click the General tab. In the Use
four-digit year formatting area, the This database check box controls
the database-level option and the All databases check box controls the
application-level option.

I can't find any of those under Tools --> Options --> General.

It has print margins, default database directory, and sort order.


--
Steve Hayes from Tshwane, South Africa
http://www.geocities.com/Athens/7734/stevesig.htm
E-mail - see web page, or parse: shayes at dunelm full stop org full stop uk

[Steve Hayes]

On Wed, 15 Dec 2004 21:27:13 GMT, Allen <[email protected]> wrote:

Are you perhaps saying that an Access user should do something as far
out as to read the manual? Unbelievable! Get real, mate!

I do, about every 6 months.

I get this idea that there are actually some kinds of data where a relational
database will work better than the flatfile/text databases I usually use.

So I think now I'm going to crack this problem and learn how to use MS Access.


So I read "Getting results with Microsoft Office 97" (the manual that came
with the program, and think I'll try it.

So I fiddle with one of their templates, and all goes marvellously well, until
it comes to date entry. It wopn't accept the date because there is an input
mask that gives a different form. So I change the input mask, but it still
enters the wrong date. Eventually, after 2-3 hours, I realise I'm getting
nowhere, and give up in disgust, and go back to using the flatfile/text
databases which at least give me results.

And then after about 6 months I think a relational database might be better
for some kinds of information and... <go to top>





--
Steve Hayes from Tshwane, South Africa
http://www.geocities.com/Athens/7734/stevesig.htm
E-mail - see web page, or parse: shayes at dunelm full stop org full stop uk

[Susie Zada]

Hi Steve,

"Steve Hayes" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...

I can't find any of those under Tools --> Options --> General.

It has print margins, default database directory, and sort order.

I think your problem may be indicated in an earlier message when you talked
about Access 97. Most of the options suggested to solve this problem were
introduced as part of the famous / infamous Y2K to cater for the turn of the
century.

I don't have the latest version of Access but do have Access 2000 and the
4-digit year formatting is definitely there.

And I wouldn't be without a relational database for some of the indexing
etc. that I do! <vbg>

Regards ........ Susie Z

[Doug McDonald]

Steve Hayes wrote:

On Wed, 15 Dec 2004 21:27:13 GMT, Allen <[email protected]> wrote:


Are you perhaps saying that an Access user should do something as far
out as to read the manual? Unbelievable! Get real, mate!


I do, about every 6 months.

I get this idea that there are actually some kinds of data where a relational
database will work better than the flatfile/text databases I usually use.

So I think now I'm going to crack this problem and learn how to use MS Access.
Eventually, after 2-3 hours, I realise I'm getting
nowhere, and give up in disgust, and go back to using the flatfile/text
databases which at least give me results.

And then after about 6 months I think a relational database might be better
for some kinds of information and... <go to top

The whole idea behind relational databases, like "real" operating
systems is to PREVENT you from doing things. Then the task for the
user is to learn how to circumvent these restrictions.

Doug McDonald

[Charlie]

On Thu, 16 Dec 2004 06:21:08 GMT, [email protected] (Steve Hayes)
wrote:
<snip>

But I'm very curious as to what is happening on your system. Is this
an entry directly into an Access table, or through an Access form? Is
tha actual data altered, or just the output formatting? Is it possible
to send me a copy of whatever is doing this, so I could see if it
happens on my system too? (I can receive attachments at my Yahoo mail
box: charliehoffp at yahoo dot com)

Thanks - I'll try to send the .mdb file. I'd be interested to see how it works
on your system.

I received your file, loaded it, and found that the field for date
had an input mask on the data input form. Removing it seems to have
cleared the problem.... let me know if it worked out (I sent the
modified file back to you).
Charlie Hoffpauir
http://freepages.genealogy.rootsweb.com/~charlieh/

[Charlie]

On Thu, 16 Dec 2004 09:09:58 -0600, Doug McDonald
<mcdonald@SnPoAM_scs.uiuc.edu> wrote:

Steve Hayes wrote:
On Wed, 15 Dec 2004 21:27:13 GMT, Allen <[email protected]> wrote:


Are you perhaps saying that an Access user should do something as far
out as to read the manual? Unbelievable! Get real, mate!


I do, about every 6 months.

I get this idea that there are actually some kinds of data where a relational
database will work better than the flatfile/text databases I usually use.

So I think now I'm going to crack this problem and learn how to use MS Access.
Eventually, after 2-3 hours, I realise I'm getting
nowhere, and give up in disgust, and go back to using the flatfile/text
databases which at least give me results.

And then after about 6 months I think a relational database might be better
for some kinds of information and... <go to top



The whole idea behind relational databases, like "real" operating
systems is to PREVENT you from doing things. Then the task for the
user is to learn how to circumvent these restrictions.

Doug McDonald

Doug,

I really don't agree with your statement.

I looked at Steve's application, and it was not a problem with
entering a date into Access , but rather an application that he had
loaded that set an imput mask for a form used to input data. ie, the
designer had intended to limit the dates that could be entered.
Charlie Hoffpauir
http://freepages.genealogy.rootsweb.com/~charlieh/

[William Barfieldsr]

<[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...

Thank you for the advice...genealogy is something that's pretty big in
my church.

I don't plan on publishing my results online, for the simple reason
that I doubt that my family would like any publicity. We're pretty
closed group of individuals...and with exception of my brother, I'm the
only one who does any web based publishing and research.

But I do hope to get further into this; it's quite interesting to learn
about family history.

QUESTION for those who can answer it: I found some people online who
shared my last name who lived in Kentucky back in the the very late
1890s. Now, we share an un-common last name, so would it be improper to
add them to my list, but not link them to anyone, since I don't know
who they are?

Just make a seperate data base with that name and as you find others add
them and eventually they will link as we all will eventually link up to one
another in some way or other.
--
William Barfieldsr

[Stephen SG]

Steve you have to format the date line to get what you want.

However have you tried a spread sheet, this is what I am using, this has
Four linking families 7 gens.
which are linked to separate doc files within a folder,and comment folders
to each box.

Stephen SG


"Steve Hayes" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
| On Wed, 15 Dec 2004 00:17:07 -0000, "Hugh Watkins" <[email protected]>
| wrote:
|
| >A one name study needs database software
| >you collect facts and find connections afterwards
| >
| >http://custodian3.co.uk/
| >has a set of good templates
|
| How does Clooz compare with it for that purpose?
|
| I tried using MS Access, but it keeps messing up dates -- I entered
someone's
| birthdate as 1926, and it changed it to 2026 without so much as a
| by-your-leave. And no matter how many times I retyped it, it kept changing
it.
|
| In genealogical work that's not a trivial bug.
|
|
|
| --
| Steve Hayes from Tshwane, South Africa
| http://www.geocities.com/Athens/7734/stevesig.htm
| E-mail - see web page, or parse: shayes at dunelm full stop org full stop
uk

[Steve Hayes]

On Thu, 16 Dec 2004 09:09:58 -0600, Doug McDonald
<mcdonald@SnPoAM_scs.uiuc.edu> wrote:

And then after about 6 months I think a relational database might be better
for some kinds of information and... <go to top



The whole idea behind relational databases, like "real" operating
systems is to PREVENT you from doing things. Then the task for the
user is to learn how to circumvent these restrictions.

Sometimes that can seem like a good idea.

For example, in a flat-file event-base database, when oen wants to record
people involved in an event, and in what capacity, after entering the same
person's name 50 times, a relational database can seem like a good idea,
because it could prevent me from needing to do that.

On the other hand, my flat file database prevents me from having to write UDFs
to interpret dates as "circa" and so on, because it handles those just fine,
whereas in Access I wouldn't know where to start, and you spend ore time
programming (and learning how to do it) than collecting data.




--
Steve Hayes from Tshwane, South Africa
http://www.geocities.com/Athens/7734/stevesig.htm
E-mail - see web page, or parse: shayes at dunelm full stop org full stop uk

[Steve Hayes]

On Thu, 16 Dec 2004 09:12:34 -0600, Charlie <[email protected]> wrote:

On Thu, 16 Dec 2004 06:21:08 GMT, [email protected] (Steve Hayes)
wrote:
snip
But I'm very curious as to what is happening on your system. Is this
an entry directly into an Access table, or through an Access form? Is
tha actual data altered, or just the output formatting? Is it possible
to send me a copy of whatever is doing this, so I could see if it
happens on my system too? (I can receive attachments at my Yahoo mail
box: charliehoffp at yahoo dot com)

Thanks - I'll try to send the .mdb file. I'd be interested to see how it works
on your system.

I received your file, loaded it, and found that the field for date
had an input mask on the data input form. Removing it seems to have
cleared the problem.... let me know if it worked out (I sent the
modified file back to you).

Thanks -- I'll look at it. I modified the input mask in the table, but didn't
manage to find it in the form.


--
Steve Hayes from Tshwane, South Africa
http://www.geocities.com/Athens/7734/stevesig.htm
E-mail - see web page, or parse: shayes at dunelm full stop org full stop uk

[Steve Hayes]

On Fri, 17 Dec 2004 01:15:40 -0000, "Stephen SG"
<[email protected]> wrote:

Steve you have to format the date line to get what you want.

However have you tried a spread sheet, this is what I am using, this has
Four linking families 7 gens.
which are linked to separate doc files within a folder,and comment folders
to each box.

Spreadsheets are great for number processing, but are not really designed for
storing text. I know they *can* be used as a flat-file database, but the text
database programs I use, like askSam, handle text better, are more versatile,
and easier to use.


--
Steve Hayes from Tshwane, South Africa
http://www.geocities.com/Athens/7734/stevesig.htm
E-mail - see web page, or parse: shayes at dunelm full stop org full stop uk

[Doug McDonald]

Steve Hayes wrote:

person's name 50 times, a relational database can seem like a good idea,
because it could prevent me from needing to do that.

On the other hand, my flat file database prevents me from having to write UDFs
to interpret dates as "circa" and so on, because it handles those just fine,
whereas in Access I wouldn't know where to start, and you spend ore time
programming (and learning how to do it) than collecting data.

Exactly. I wrote a relational database style thing to document
my rock collection. Rocks are static things, and they don't change.
And of course I indeed can link "properties" to each rock. But there
are problems. The rock does not change ... but it's name can,
if some taxonomist decides to change it! If I have a table of
names of mineral species, and somebody changes the classification
of a rock, do I just add the new name and use if for new rocks,
or change the name of old rocks too? Or worse, what happens
if somebody "splits" a name and it requires a chemical analysis
or an X-ray to tell which name is now correct? Do I
add the new names to the name table and keep the old ones? ...
in which case the database is no longer truly relational.

The same problems can happen in genealogy.

Doug McDonald

[Steve Hayes]

On Fri, 17 Dec 2004 09:18:49 -0600, Doug McDonald
<mcdonald@SnPoAM_scs.uiuc.edu> wrote:

Steve Hayes wrote:

person's name 50 times, a relational database can seem like a good idea,
because it could prevent me from needing to do that.

On the other hand, my flat file database prevents me from having to write UDFs
to interpret dates as "circa" and so on, because it handles those just fine,
whereas in Access I wouldn't know where to start, and you spend ore time
programming (and learning how to do it) than collecting data.



Exactly. I wrote a relational database style thing to document
my rock collection. Rocks are static things, and they don't change.
And of course I indeed can link "properties" to each rock. But there
are problems. The rock does not change ... but it's name can,
if some taxonomist decides to change it! If I have a table of
names of mineral species, and somebody changes the classification
of a rock, do I just add the new name and use if for new rocks,
or change the name of old rocks too? Or worse, what happens
if somebody "splits" a name and it requires a chemical analysis
or an X-ray to tell which name is now correct? Do I
add the new names to the name table and keep the old ones? ...
in which case the database is no longer truly relational.

The same problems can happen in genealogy.

In my flat file database, I just add another name to the name field. I keep a
database of African Independent Churches. Some have three or four names, or
names in different languages, or nicknames (genealogises should recognise
"Mormons" and "Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints"). The flat file
database allows repeating fields, which is a big no no in relational
databases.

I suppose you could have fields for Name, Alias, Nickname, and so on, but what
happens if you have more than one nickname, for example? You could make a
"Names" table, and a linking table for the descriptions. I think the older
versions of PAF worked like that - surname, first name, second name and third
name fields were all linked to a single Name table, so each name was stored
once, and once only. It made for a very compact database. When I converted it
to Legacy, it more than quadrupled in size from under 2 Mb to more than 9 Mb
before adding any new data.




--
Steve Hayes from Tshwane, South Africa
http://www.geocities.com/Athens/7734/stevesig.htm
E-mail - see web page, or parse: shayes at dunelm full stop org full stop uk