Margrethe Larsdatter, born 1849 i Grytten

[gj14879]

Hello,
I was referred to this site in hope that I could get help in deciphering some records.

1) The first is a birth/baptismal record for Margrethe Larsdatter, born July 19 1849, in More og Romsdal, Grytten, Norway to mother, Guri Olsdatter Vange. I have been able to trace Margrethe’s life with help from censuses but can not seem to go any further. I was hoping this document could tell who her father was, his occupation and where he came from. Possibly learning who her relatives were might help also. Also, does it state that he mother's name is Guri Olsdatter? Does it list where she was born?


http://www.arkivverket.no/URN:NBN:no-a1 ... 010323.jpg

The other document is a death record for Julius Martin Olsen Methaug, who died Dec 6 1881. He was the father of one of Margrethe’s children, Julia Juliusdtr Olsen, born 6-2-1879 in Kristianssund. (I don’t think Margrethe married him, because I cannot find a record of marriage.)

I believe the document said he was a sailor???? And he died in Nakikot???? Is there any other information that you can decipher?

http://www.arkivverket.no/URN:NBN:no-a1 ... 620699.jpg


Thank you in advance,
Mary

[Kjell Halvorsen]

Hi Mary,

To your #1 - I read the parents names as Lars Olsen Hanekamhoug and Guri Knudsdatter Venge and in the remarks it is stated that they got married August 2nd couple # 1 page 404

To your #2 - I am not able to read the place of death any other than you do, but it looks Asian – Japanese possibly ?

In addition the record shows that he was a bachelor sailor at time of death, was born April 24th in Christiansund – year of birth not visible - and also got his church confirmation same place, on October 5th 1873.

In the remark column is probably stated how the info on the sailors death was obtained, but because it is partly burned, none of it make any sense to me, unfortunately.

A little friendly hint: when you in the future ask for help in reading these records I will suggest that you link to the records permanent pagelinks – not the permanent imagelinks. That way your helpers get a way to skim thru pages on both sides of the one you are linking to – this is often helpful when comparing the writing style for single letters and other characteristics in order to give a response as correct as possible

Best, Kjell H.

[Tore Kristiansen]

Hello, in the death record I read the name of the captain of the ship to the far right in the remarks.
And the captain's name was Schjetnan.
Captain Schjetnan sailed in the Pacific and discovered some islands there, which he called Schjetnan's Reef. (We can't find these islands today.)
The place of death might therefore be some town/city in the far east.

[gj14879]

Thanks for all the record clarifications. This has helped me a lot. And thanks for the tip on what format I should use when sending documents to be translated.

But now I need help reading Guri and Lars marriage record. I am hoping there will be something in these records that will help me establish where and when they were born and what Lar’s occupation is.
1. There are numbers written under each name...21 Axx? under Lars and 37 Axx? under Guri. Would this be their ages at time of marriage? If so, Guri is a lot older than Lars.
2. There is a reference to “Hole” under Guri’s name. I have noticed this location (Gard) in some censuses. Would this be the farm she is from? I cannot make out what is under Lar’s name.
3. Am I reading the best man’s names correctly: Laramand (maybe occupation???) Johan Mikkelsen Ven and Ole Larsen Venga? Maybe Guri’s brother?
4. Any clarification on what is written on the next two columns?

Thanks in advance for your time and input,
Mary

[gj14879]

I looked up Captain Schjetnan read about some of his sea travels. Very interesting reading! This “tidbit” of information really helps one get a better appreciation of one’s ancestors.
A big thank you for that,
Mary

[Kjell Halvorsen]

Hi again,

You initially stated Margrethe Larsdatters mothers name as Guri Olsdatter while the baptism record for the Margrethe at hand show mothers name as Guri Knudsdatter - which is it ?

Bridegroom Lars was 21 and bride Guri was 34 years of age when married – comparing the number 4 in her age with the number 4 in given year 1849 suggests age 34, not 37 – what say you ?

I am not at all familiar with this part of the country but Hanekamhoug and Venge both were cotter’s farms under the main farms Fiva and Hole respectively. Whether the couple at time of marriage just were staying on these farms – Hanekamhoug and Venge just acting as an address – or they actually were born and grew up at these cotter’s farms, is hard to determine just based on these church records.

# 1 best man was Gaarmand (farmer) Johannes Mikkelsen Venge and the other was Ole Larsen Venge. I am not able to decipher his profession or title.

The two following columns contains date of marriage – 2 Aug – and place of marriage – Gr(e/y)t: Kirke i.e. Grytten Church.

Kjell H.

[Else Berit Rustad]

# 1 best man was Gaarmand (farmer) Johannes Mikkelsen Venge and the other was Ole Larsen Venge. I am not able to decipher his profession or title.

Mener det står Kaarmand Johannes Mikkelsen Venge og Pldb (= Pladsbruger) Ole Larsen Venge.

Mvh
Else B.

[Paul Johan Hals]

I agree with Else.
In addition: The next colomn says: "2. Aug - i Kirken". That means they were married in the church. The name of the church is not mentioned.


Best regards

Paul

[Kjell Halvorsen]

Kaarmand it is, thank you Else B. Normally a farmer should have been spelled Gaardmand.
For Mary: Kaarmand was a person who on certain predefined conditions were living on a farm – typically the older generations left the ownership of the farm to descendants and as a quid pro quo they could enjoy staying on the farm for the rest of their life.

To Paul Johan I must say I disagree. I am fairly certain that the column stating place of marriage contanins Grytten (either plain text or abbriviated) in all marriages on pages 404 and 405.

May be Else B. would straighten this out !

Kjell H.

[Paul Johan Hals]

You are right, Kjell. I must have looked over (or under) my glasses.

Mvh Paul

[Else Berit Rustad]

Thank you, Kjell, for your translation/explanation of the word Kaarmand.

Mvh
Else B.

[gj14879]

Hello everyone!

Sorry for the confusion on the last name for Guri, but I have also been confused on her last name.
I am glad you asked me this question because it forced me to review the records I have.
Guri would be my great, great grandma. The last census I have for Guri is the 1865 Kristinasund census. She lists her name as Guri Ols. Winge, (Venge ??) age 50 (abt 1815). She lists her birth location as Grotten Progj. (Grytten?) She is living with her daughter Margrethe Ols., age 17.
(Margrethe Olsdatter is my great grandmother and according to that census, she is deaf and dumb from the age of 5 years.)

So, with your clarification that Guri was 34 at the time of marriage, I think that her “real” last name was Knudsdatter. I am thinking that Guri used the name Ols.on census to match her daughter. But I could be so wrong!

Note: Tracing Margrethe’s history has been very challenging but a lot of fun. Based on what I have been able to find out, she had two daughters (One of them was my grandma Helma) with two different men. It does not look like she married either of the fathers. She was deaf and mute, and I last found her on the 1885 Kristiansund census living with her two daughters. Unfortunetly, can’t find when or where she died.
I believe she was very poor and because of her afflication had a hard time supporting her children. Her children (Helma and Julie) are found living in diffferent locations in Norway in 1900. I am guessing she died sometime between 1885 and 1900????

Best regards to all you,
Mary

[Kjell Halvorsen]

Thanks for your clarification on Guri Olsdatter/Guri Knudsdatter. I think the conflicting use of patronyms was a result of the process in Norway at the time, where the use of patronyms was gradually shifted to the use of more fixed family names/surnames. This process first started in and around the cities and also appeared earlier among the wealthier class of citizens than the countryfolks. My guess is that when Lars Olsen and Guri Knudsdatter moved to town (Kristiansund) she picked up his patronym and used as her own – not an uncommon practise at all !

This forum is strictly speaking just ment for help in deciphering/interpretation of all or parts of text, so rather than continuing this conversation here, I would suggest you post a request for help at forum Rauma at 'Slektsforum -> Etterlysninger -> Møre og Romsdal -> Romsdal' or Kristiansund at 'Slektsforum -> Etterlysninger -> Møre og Romsdal -> Nordmøre' where you give all the info you have. It is often fruitful to get in touch with helpers with local knowledge. That way you may improve your chances of making some progress in your search for the whole story of Guri , Margrethe and her two daughters.

Kjell H.

[Britt Iren Pedersen Neergård]

Hanekamhoug and Venge both were cotter’s farms under the main farms Fiva and Hole respectively. Whether the couple at time of marriage just were staying on these farms – Hanekamhoug and Venge just acting as an address – or they actually were born and grew up at these cotter’s farms, is hard to determine just based on these church records.

Hanekamhaug og Venge var ikke husmannsplasser under Fiva og Hole. De var alle gårder på nesten samme størrelse.

Guri var født på Wenge som ligger ved foten av Romsdalshorn og Lars var født på Hanekamhaug som ligger ved veien til Trollstigen.
Jeg har oversikt over både Guri og Lars sine foreldre. Som du foreslår bør etterlysningen postes under Rauma.

mvh
Britt Iren

[Helge Bjerkevoll]

Har flyttet denne til Rauma.

Have moved this to Rauma.
Then everyone with interest in Rauma/Grytten can find it.

[Kjell Farstad]

Hello.

Mary wrote 22. nov: The other document is a death record for Julius Martin Olsen Methaug, who died Dec 6 1881. He was the father of one of Margrethe’s children, Julia Juliusdtr Olsen, born 6-2-1879 in Kristianssund. (I don’t think Margrethe married him, because I cannot find a record of marriage.

1875 census for Kristiansund, Nordlandet:
Julius Midthaug born 1858 in Kristiansund.
Parent: Ole Midthaug born 1827 in Kleive, Bolsøy og Barbara Midthaug born 1823 in Kvernes. http://www.rhd.uit.no/folketellinger/ft ... 031&lnr=00
I have no further information about the family in Kristiansund.

[Kjell Halvorsen]

[quote="Britt"][/quote] Hanekamhaug og Venge var ikke husmannsplasser under Fiva og Hole. De var alle gårder på nesten samme størrelse.

My statement that Hanekamhaug and Venge both were cotter's farms under Fiva and Hole was solely based on how I read the church record when Lars and Guri got married - Ungkarl Lars Olsen Hanekamhoug u Fiva 21 Aar og Pige Guri Knudsdatter u Hole 34 Aar. In my part of the countyr that litte u meant under and in most cases indicated a cotter's farm.

Never the less, Britt Iren, I have no reason to doubt your statement and hope that you in order to help out Mary will put forward your genealogy on Guri and Lars

Kjell H.

[Britt Iren Pedersen Neergård]

I mean it`s written el (or) not u(nder).

Guri Knudsdatter is also called Wenge at her confirmation in 1830 and Lars is called Hanekamhaug at his confirmation in 1842. He got very good in both knowledge and behavior.
Since they at their wedding is called Wenge or Hole and Hanekamhaug or Fiva I believe they worked and lived at Hole and Fiva farms at that time.

Guris parents was Knud Olsen Farquam and Sigri Paulsd (aughter)
Guri was born 27 of December 1815 at Wenge and christened 14 of January 1816
Her parents married 6 months after Guris birth, 25 of May 1816

I believe this is Sigri in 1801


Lars parents are called Ole Larsen Hanekamhaug and Marit Knudsdatter when Lars was christened.
I believe they are Ole Larsen Biændum? from Gusdal (Gausdal in Oppland) He is 26 year and is living at SoggeBakke. Mari Knudsdatter Avdem from Læssøe (Lesja in Oppland). She is 32 years and is a servant at the farm SoggeØstigaard. They married in Grytten church 27 of October 1825.
Wenge, Hole, Fiva, Sogge are neighbor farms, Hanekamhaug is not far from the others.

Lars Olsen Hanekamhaug or Fiva at the age of 21 year got certificate from the vicar 15 of June 1849. He was going to Ålesund. But he married 2 months later in Grytten.

___________________
When Margrete get the oldest daughter it`s mention that Margrete was confirmated in Trondheim. Since she was deaf and dumb since the age of five I wonder if she went to the deaf school in Trondheim. http://www.norsk-dovemuseum.no/fakta_og ... _doveskole (se translate at the top of the website)
When she got her second daughter she is called a widower. She could have been married after Julie was born. As you see are the church book for Kristiansund damaged of fire so it`s not possible to find all information in the church books.
Margrethe is living with her grandparents in Trondheim in 1900, but that you have found yourself. She went to America in 1903.

[Britt Iren Pedersen Neergård]

Sigri was born 15 of June 1792
http://www.arkivverket.no/URN:kb_read?i ... _side=-144

Her parents were Guri Olsd Brude and Povl Povlsen (Povel Polvelsen) Enstad from Lessøe (Lesja in Oppland). They were not married.
Sigri was christened i Kors church in Grytten parish.
Guri and his two children move further down in the valley, as we see in 1801 to Tomberg and when the children are confirmated they lived on a farm called Mjelva.
When Sigris half brother was christened it`s written that Guri was from Lessøe= Lesja.

Here is Povel in 1801.
http://digitalarkivet.no/cgi-win/webcen ... k=824#ovre



I believe Marit Knudsdatter Avdem, mother of Lars Olsen Hanekamhaug, is her in census 1801
http://digitalarkivet.uib.no/cgi-win/we ... k=423#ovre

[gj14879]

Thanks to everyone for all the great information. I have spent much time reviewing. Now I have a few more questions for the following ancestors:

1. Margrethe Olsdatter (Larsdatter) born July 19, 1849 in Grytten

Thanks for pointing out that Margrethe was confirmed in Trondhiem! I missed that on her daughter, Julie’s birth/baptism record. I searched the Parish records and I think I found Margrethe’s confirmation record, Domkirken/Trondhiem on August 16, 1865. If it is the correct one, can someone translate it? Does it indicate what occupation Lars holds? What church did this happen in?
http://www.arkivverket.no/URN:kb_read?i ... _side=-222

As for Margrethe attending the deaf school, I think that is very possible. I have written the school to see if they can confirm.
Now I need to find what happened to her after the last 1865 census. I am assuming she died before 1900, and have paged through the on-line Kristiansund Parish death records but to no avail.

2. Lars Olsen Hanekamhaug born abt 1828 (Margrethe’s father)

Can someone help me find where and when Lars was born? I see that his parents Ole Larsen Biaendum and Marti Knudsdatter (from Oppland) have been given to me, but I am afraid I cannot locate Lars.

You mentioned that Lars Olsen “got certificate from vicar 15 of June 1849. He was going to Alesund, but he married 2 months later in Grytten.” Can you clarify why he was going to Alesund? Was it because of his occupation? Was he confirmed (1942) in Grytten or someplace else? I see that Alesund is a sea port. Maybe Lars was a sailor?

3. Guri Knudsdtr Wenge born Dec 27, 1815 (Margrethe’s mother.)
Guri was about 13 years older than Lars when she married. Is that unusual during that time? Or could it be she was married and widowed prior to her marriage to Lars? Maybe had other children? The last record I can find for Guri is 1865 census in Kristiansund.

I know these are a lot of questions, and probably very hard to answer, but I am hoping to get as much information about how my ancestors lived. This would included their occupations.


Thanks again for your help.
Mary

[Britt Iren Pedersen Neergård]

Here is Lars christening in Grytten
http://www.arkivverket.no/URN:kb_read?i ... x_side=-32

If you write to [email protected] I will answer your other questions.

mvh
Britt Iren