amazing that only now he feels the numberals used in titles is confusing
him.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Douglas Richardson" <[email protected]>
Newsgroups: soc.genealogy.medieval, soc.history.medieval,
alt.history.british,alt.talk.royalty
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Tuesday, February 19, 2008 4:35 AM
Subject: Re: Maud de Baskerville, sister of Humphrey de Bohun (died 1322),
Earl of Hereford & Essex
Dear fellow posters ~
Mr. Fryde who I have cited as a source is a highly reputable scholar.
============Scholar in what?
He is perfectly acceptable to use as a source for counting peerage
titles.
============Depends in what he is a scholar, and peerage does not seem to be
his forte, British Chronology seems to be hi8s subject.
His standard reference work,
=========== Standard on whose say so?
Handbook of British Chronology,
is found in library all around the world. You've probably seen the
book in your own library.
===== I haven't and till now did not know it existed, and I bet many people
on Gen-Med are in the same position.
Mr. Fryde has chosen to count bodies, not creations, which decision
makes good sense to me.
===== Is it a recommendation that Richardson sees the sense in that?
As a trained genealogist and historian, I am sure he has seen Burke's
Peerage, a book, I bet, most people on Gen-Med have heard of and
possibly/probably have seen, and also can be found in most libraries around
the world.
What does Burke's do? The numberal is started anew with each creation of a
title.
As I have said before, Richardson should consult his friend and benefactor
Gary Boyd Roberts as he in his books also uses the numerals per creation.
If you count creations, not bodies, then to
be consistent, you must ALWAYS indicate which creation which you are
referring.
==========Must? Why? You have the surname of the person and without even
thinking you know to which familyh this person belongs.
Otherwise, you create total confusion for posters like
Susan who don't understand the arbitrary splitting of earls into
different creations.
=====Apologies to Susan, but dumbing down should not be considered
And, since people DON'T indicate which creation
goes to what earl, the system of counting earls within successive
creations is inherently inconsistent and confusing.
===========Only for people who have no idea what they are talking about.
I might note that the authoritative Complete Peerage uses BOTH systems
(confused yet?). It counts bodies (successive earls) and also
provides numbers of earls within different creations. Thus, Humphrey
de Bohun, died 1322, is listed as follows in Complete Peerage, 6
(1926): 467 (sub Hereford):
"VIII. 1298. 4. Humphrey (de Bohun), Earl of Hereford and Essex, and
Constable of England, ..."
While Complete Peerage supplies the correct numbers, it confuses the
reader as to whether Humphrey de Bohun was the 4th Earl or the 8th
Earl of Hereford. Of course, in his lifetime, Earl Humphrey didn't
style himself either 4th earl or 8th earl. As such, both systems of
ordinals are completely arbitrary in their nature and are not derived
from contemporary documents. But, if I had to choose between the two
systems, I would use Fryde's system of counting bodies, not titles in
successive creations.
====== Some things in history have been decided in hindsight, and there is
nothing wrong with that.
If that was wrong we all should try to eradicate the name Plantagenet, the
same as Earl Humphrey did not call himself the 4th or 8th Earl, neither did
Princess Elizabeth Plantagenet call herself Princess Elizabeth Plantagenet.
We should call John of Gaunt, John of Gent and we can go on and on, but then
that is what Richardson is good at.
With best wishes
Leo van de Pas
Canberra, Australia
Best always, Douglas Richardson, Salt Lake City, Utah
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