The Caswall family were long prominent in the civic affairs of
Leominster, Herefordshire.
According to their entry in Burke's Landed Gentry, they were an
ancient Herefordshire family, one of whose members was Sir Thomas
Caswall, a crusader, said to have been buried at Leominster.
Is anything known of this family?
MA-R
Caswall, of Herefordshire
Moderator: MOD_nyhetsgrupper
-
Gjest
Re: Caswall, of Herefordshire
On Jan 28, 2:55 pm, [email protected] wrote:
Robert Battle posted some very useful 16th and 17th century wills of
the family here:
http://archiver.rootsweb.com/th/index/CASWELL/2001-04
MA-R
The Caswall family were long prominent in the civic affairs of
Leominster, Herefordshire.
According to their entry in Burke's Landed Gentry, they were an
ancient Herefordshire family, one of whose members was Sir Thomas
Caswall, a crusader, said to have been buried at Leominster.
Is anything known of this family?
Robert Battle posted some very useful 16th and 17th century wills of
the family here:
http://archiver.rootsweb.com/th/index/CASWELL/2001-04
MA-R
-
AdrianBnjmBurke
Re: Caswall, of Herefordshire
On Jan 28, 1:15 am, [email protected] wrote:
Is this Caswall of any relation to the manor of Craswell in
herefordshire near the welsh border of the brecon beacons...??
On Jan 28, 2:55 pm, [email protected] wrote:
The Caswall family were long prominent in the civic affairs of
Leominster, Herefordshire.
According to their entry in Burke's Landed Gentry, they were an
ancient Herefordshire family, one of whose members was Sir Thomas
Caswall, a crusader, said to have been buried at Leominster.
Is anything known of this family?
Robert Battle posted some very useful 16th and 17th century wills of
the family here:
http://archiver.rootsweb.com/th/index/CASWELL/2001-04
MA-R
Is this Caswall of any relation to the manor of Craswell in
herefordshire near the welsh border of the brecon beacons...??
-
Gjest
Re: Caswall, of Herefordshire
On Jan 29, 9:14 am, AdrianBnjmBurke <[email protected]>
wrote:
Good question, Adrian.
At least by 1500 they seem to have been settled around Leominster and
Risbury - probably some 20-25 miles from Brecon as the crow flies.
My initial reaction, given the 'r' in Craswell, would be 'no', but
English does have a peculiar habit at times of transposing that letter
(eg Ibthorpe, pronounced Ibthrop; Althorpe, pronounced Altrop etc), so
perhaps it could be equated with 'Carswell'.
I've only just started to look at this family, which was mostly of
yeoman rank in the 16th century, so don't yet know very much about
them.
Best wishes, Michael
wrote:
On Jan 28, 1:15 am, [email protected] wrote:
On Jan 28, 2:55 pm, [email protected] wrote:
The Caswall family were long prominent in the civic affairs of
Leominster, Herefordshire.
According to their entry in Burke's Landed Gentry, they were an
ancient Herefordshire family, one of whose members was Sir Thomas
Caswall, a crusader, said to have been buried at Leominster.
Is anything known of this family?
Robert Battle posted some very useful 16th and 17th century wills of
the family here:
http://archiver.rootsweb.com/th/index/CASWELL/2001-04
MA-R
Is this Caswall of any relation to the manor of Craswell in
herefordshire near the welsh border of the brecon beacons?
Good question, Adrian.
At least by 1500 they seem to have been settled around Leominster and
Risbury - probably some 20-25 miles from Brecon as the crow flies.
My initial reaction, given the 'r' in Craswell, would be 'no', but
English does have a peculiar habit at times of transposing that letter
(eg Ibthorpe, pronounced Ibthrop; Althorpe, pronounced Altrop etc), so
perhaps it could be equated with 'Carswell'.
I've only just started to look at this family, which was mostly of
yeoman rank in the 16th century, so don't yet know very much about
them.
Best wishes, Michael
-
Nathaniel Taylor
Re: Caswall, of Herefordshire
In article
<f996fb8a-512b-4ab8-aa86-ea18ae835d22@l32g2000hse.googlegroups.com>,
[email protected] wrote:
I think the 'or' / 'ro' equivalency may be its own case. I was just
reviewing the text & music of the stirring Agincourt song (Bodleian MS
Selden Arch. B 26, the "Selden Carol Book" [2Q 15th c.], ff. 17v-18r).
The MS has 'throwe' (modern through) spelled 'thorwe' and 'thorw'. The
MS is available online; the transcription in Chappell's _Early English
Popular Music_ (1893) seems pretty accurate to me.
Nat Taylor
http://www.nltaylor.net
<f996fb8a-512b-4ab8-aa86-ea18ae835d22@l32g2000hse.googlegroups.com>,
[email protected] wrote:
On Jan 29, 9:14 am, AdrianBnjmBurke <[email protected]
wrote:
On Jan 28, 1:15 am, [email protected] wrote:
The Caswall family were long prominent in the civic affairs of
Leominster, Herefordshire.
According to their entry in Burke's Landed Gentry, they were an
ancient Herefordshire family, one of whose members was Sir Thomas
Caswall, a crusader, said to have been buried at Leominster.
Is anything known of this family?
Robert Battle posted some very useful 16th and 17th century wills of
the family here:
http://archiver.rootsweb.com/th/index/CASWELL/2001-04
Is this Caswall of any relation to the manor of Craswell in
herefordshire near the welsh border of the brecon beacons?
Good question, Adrian.
At least by 1500 they seem to have been settled around Leominster and
Risbury - probably some 20-25 miles from Brecon as the crow flies.
My initial reaction, given the 'r' in Craswell, would be 'no', but
English does have a peculiar habit at times of transposing that letter
(eg Ibthorpe, pronounced Ibthrop; Althorpe, pronounced Altrop etc), so
perhaps it could be equated with 'Carswell'.
I think the 'or' / 'ro' equivalency may be its own case. I was just
reviewing the text & music of the stirring Agincourt song (Bodleian MS
Selden Arch. B 26, the "Selden Carol Book" [2Q 15th c.], ff. 17v-18r).
The MS has 'throwe' (modern through) spelled 'thorwe' and 'thorw'. The
MS is available online; the transcription in Chappell's _Early English
Popular Music_ (1893) seems pretty accurate to me.
Nat Taylor
http://www.nltaylor.net
-
Gjest
Re: Caswall, of Herefordshire
On Jan 29, 10:36 am, [email protected] wrote:
This does seem to be the case here: the Patent Rolls of Henry VI,
1441-1446, use the following variants for the same Herefordshire
priory:
Crasswall, Carssewell, Carsswall, Crassewell, Craswell, Crassewelle.
Whether these are to be equated with the surname "Caswall" is another
question.
One "Henry de Crassewalle" is named in a Shropshire charter of 12
Edward III (Patent Rolls, 6 November 1445) .
MA-R
MA-R
On Jan 29, 9:14 am, AdrianBnjmBurke <[email protected]
Is this Caswall of any relation to the manor of Craswell in
herefordshire near the welsh border of the brecon beacons?
Good question, Adrian.
My initial reaction, given the 'r' in Craswell, would be 'no', but
English does have a peculiar habit at times of transposing that letter
(eg Ibthorpe, pronounced Ibthrop; Althorpe, pronounced Altrop etc), so
perhaps it could be equated with 'Carswell'.
This does seem to be the case here: the Patent Rolls of Henry VI,
1441-1446, use the following variants for the same Herefordshire
priory:
Crasswall, Carssewell, Carsswall, Crassewell, Craswell, Crassewelle.
Whether these are to be equated with the surname "Caswall" is another
question.
One "Henry de Crassewalle" is named in a Shropshire charter of 12
Edward III (Patent Rolls, 6 November 1445) .
MA-R
MA-R
-
AdrianBnjmBurke
Re: Caswall, of Herefordshire
On Jan 28, 8:39 pm, [email protected] wrote:
Well I have come across intances of a family by the name of "Craswell"
in Hereford and I have an interest in the manor of Craswell and have
been searching for extant manorial records to no avail.
--ABB
On Jan 29, 10:36 am, [email protected] wrote:
On Jan 29, 9:14 am, AdrianBnjmBurke <[email protected]
Is this Caswall of any relation to the manor of Craswell in
herefordshire near the welsh border of the brecon beacons?
Good question, Adrian.
My initial reaction, given the 'r' in Craswell, would be 'no', but
English does have a peculiar habit at times of transposing that letter
(eg Ibthorpe, pronounced Ibthrop; Althorpe, pronounced Altrop etc), so
perhaps it could be equated with 'Carswell'.
This does seem to be the case here: the Patent Rolls of Henry VI,
1441-1446, use the following variants for the same Herefordshire
priory:
Crasswall, Carssewell, Carsswall, Crassewell, Craswell, Crassewelle.
Whether these are to be equated with the surname "Caswall" is another
question.
One "Henry de Crassewalle" is named in a Shropshire charter of 12
Edward III (Patent Rolls, 6 November 1445) .
MA-R
MA-R
Well I have come across intances of a family by the name of "Craswell"
in Hereford and I have an interest in the manor of Craswell and have
been searching for extant manorial records to no avail.
--ABB
-
Gjest
Re: Caswall, of Herefordshire
On Jan 30, 2:41 am, AdrianBnjmBurke <[email protected]>
wrote:
Thomas Harwood in his 'Survey of Staffordshire' (1820) - which
incorporates much of Erdeswicke's earlier work - has some details of
the Carswall family, at p 187 et seq.
He states that the family was seated at Caverswall and gives the
following:
~ Thomas de Carswall, ff Richard I
~ 1. William de Carswall, knight; father of:
2. Richard, also a knight; father in turn of:
3. William, who built the castle at Caverswall; father in turn of:
4. Richard de Carswall, ff 19 Edward III (c1345).
~ Caverswall passed from the Carswalls to the Montgomeries, thence to
the Gifford, then the Ports, and then to the Countess of Huntingdon
[ie Dorothy, daughter of Sir John Port and Elizabeth Gifford, who
married the 4th Earl of Huntingdon] - this dates the material to
Erdeswicke's time, for the Earl died in 1604 (and Erdeswicke in 1603).
Harwood adds that William de Carswall, the builder, ff Edward II, and
that a number of members of the family were Sheriffs of Staffordshire,
including William de Carswall in 45 Henry III, and Peter de Carswall
in 51 Edward III.
He states their arms were: azure, fretty and a fess argent, and cites
an appearance of this in the church at Cubley.
The marble tomb of William the builder was still standing at Carswall
in Erdeswicke's time, although then in a state of some decay.
Although Erdeswicke rejects it, a claim was also made that the family
used as arms: argent, two bars cotised sable. These were essentially
the same arms that Burke's attributes to the Caswalls of Leominster.
Erdeswicke alleges this latter coat belonged to the Ercalls of
Shropshire, and supposes a marriage between the two families.
Caverswall is just outside of Stoke-on-Trent; Staffordshire and
Herefordshire are adjoining counties.
MA-R
wrote:
Well I have come across intances of a family by the name of "Craswell"
in Hereford and I have an interest in the manor of Craswell and have
been searching for extant manorial records to no avail.
Thomas Harwood in his 'Survey of Staffordshire' (1820) - which
incorporates much of Erdeswicke's earlier work - has some details of
the Carswall family, at p 187 et seq.
He states that the family was seated at Caverswall and gives the
following:
~ Thomas de Carswall, ff Richard I
~ 1. William de Carswall, knight; father of:
2. Richard, also a knight; father in turn of:
3. William, who built the castle at Caverswall; father in turn of:
4. Richard de Carswall, ff 19 Edward III (c1345).
~ Caverswall passed from the Carswalls to the Montgomeries, thence to
the Gifford, then the Ports, and then to the Countess of Huntingdon
[ie Dorothy, daughter of Sir John Port and Elizabeth Gifford, who
married the 4th Earl of Huntingdon] - this dates the material to
Erdeswicke's time, for the Earl died in 1604 (and Erdeswicke in 1603).
Harwood adds that William de Carswall, the builder, ff Edward II, and
that a number of members of the family were Sheriffs of Staffordshire,
including William de Carswall in 45 Henry III, and Peter de Carswall
in 51 Edward III.
He states their arms were: azure, fretty and a fess argent, and cites
an appearance of this in the church at Cubley.
The marble tomb of William the builder was still standing at Carswall
in Erdeswicke's time, although then in a state of some decay.
Although Erdeswicke rejects it, a claim was also made that the family
used as arms: argent, two bars cotised sable. These were essentially
the same arms that Burke's attributes to the Caswalls of Leominster.
Erdeswicke alleges this latter coat belonged to the Ercalls of
Shropshire, and supposes a marriage between the two families.
Caverswall is just outside of Stoke-on-Trent; Staffordshire and
Herefordshire are adjoining counties.
MA-R
-
Gjest
Re: Caswall, of Herefordshire
On Jan 30, 5:55 pm, [email protected] wrote:
Of course, this is not the same place as Craswall, Herefordshire,
which is just to the south-east of Hay-on-Wye in the south of that
county.
There may be two separate families therefore, one from Staffs and the
other from Herefordshire.
MA-R
On Jan 30, 2:41 am, AdrianBnjmBurke <[email protected]
wrote:
Well I have come across intances of a family by the name of "Craswell"
in Hereford and I have an interest in the manor of Craswell and have
been searching for extant manorial records to no avail.
Thomas Harwood in his 'Survey of Staffordshire' (1820) - which
incorporates much of Erdeswicke's earlier work - has some details of
the Carswall family, at p 187 et seq.
Caverswall is just outside of Stoke-on-Trent; Staffordshire and
Herefordshire are adjoining counties.
Of course, this is not the same place as Craswall, Herefordshire,
which is just to the south-east of Hay-on-Wye in the south of that
county.
There may be two separate families therefore, one from Staffs and the
other from Herefordshire.
MA-R
-
wjhonson
Re: Caswall, of Herefordshire
It would be useful to have some more clarity on exactly how the Manor
of Carswall (Caverswall) passed down to Dorothy Port, Countess of
Huntingdon.
Dorothy's mother was Elizabeth Giffard (Gifford) whose own mother was
Dorothy Montgomery.
Although Sir Thomas Giffard by Dorothy Montgomery had 17 children,
Elizabeth Giffard was his "only daughter" by this first wife, who
herself was a co-heiress.
Sir Thomas married secondly Ursula Throckmorton, another heiress (of
her mother).
However examining the ancesttry of Dorothy Montgomery, through whom
the Manor, should have come, I see no one with a name like Caswall.
Among Dorothy's 16 gggrandparents we have Montgomery, Longford, "the
two parents of Isabella Vernon currently unplaced", Delves,
Mainwaring, Egerton, Mainwaring, Gresley, Clarell, Stanley, Arderne,
Ferrers, Freville, Hastings and Camoys.
I.E. a veritable Who's Who of the minor gentry, but no Caswall's.
Will Johnson
of Carswall (Caverswall) passed down to Dorothy Port, Countess of
Huntingdon.
Dorothy's mother was Elizabeth Giffard (Gifford) whose own mother was
Dorothy Montgomery.
Although Sir Thomas Giffard by Dorothy Montgomery had 17 children,
Elizabeth Giffard was his "only daughter" by this first wife, who
herself was a co-heiress.
Sir Thomas married secondly Ursula Throckmorton, another heiress (of
her mother).
However examining the ancesttry of Dorothy Montgomery, through whom
the Manor, should have come, I see no one with a name like Caswall.
Among Dorothy's 16 gggrandparents we have Montgomery, Longford, "the
two parents of Isabella Vernon currently unplaced", Delves,
Mainwaring, Egerton, Mainwaring, Gresley, Clarell, Stanley, Arderne,
Ferrers, Freville, Hastings and Camoys.
I.E. a veritable Who's Who of the minor gentry, but no Caswall's.
Will Johnson
-
wjhonson
Re: Caswall, of Herefordshire
Just a few more data points on the Manor of Caverswell.
We have heard already how William de Carswell was Sheriff of
Staffordshire 45H3
We can add to that that William has license to crenelate in 3E1
Richard de Caverswell, Knt was living in 1316 when he was holding
Caverswell but "under what authority we know not"
His son William de Carswell (Caverswell) was an adult by 1332 and
still alive that year when an inquest (not on him) found him holding
Caverswell under the Lord of Alveton.
Just a few tidbits so we can place the line in it's proper historical
setting.
Will Johnson
We have heard already how William de Carswell was Sheriff of
Staffordshire 45H3
We can add to that that William has license to crenelate in 3E1
Richard de Caverswell, Knt was living in 1316 when he was holding
Caverswell but "under what authority we know not"
His son William de Carswell (Caverswell) was an adult by 1332 and
still alive that year when an inquest (not on him) found him holding
Caverswell under the Lord of Alveton.
Just a few tidbits so we can place the line in it's proper historical
setting.
Will Johnson
-
Gjest
Re: Caswall, of Herefordshire
On Jan 31, 10:11 am, wjhonson <[email protected]> wrote:
Thanks, Will.
Some more grist to the mill is provided by Eyton, in his Antiquities
of Shropshire. He mentions the Caverswells in his treatment of
Ercall:
~ Richard, son and heir of Sir Richard de Caverswell, disposes of his
moveable property at Caverswell to Sir William de Ercall, 3 Edward II
(1309-10) [probably as a feoffee]
~ William de Caverswell disposes of his moveable property at Lutywode,
Staffs, to Sir William Ercall, 9 May 1334; on 1 July following, Sir
William Ercall made a settlement on him for life, with remainder to
William de Careswell and his heirs.
~ on the death of this Sir William Ercall, the manor of Ercall passed
to William de Caverswell, whom Eyton calls the son and heir of Richard
(ff 1309-10); he speculates that Richard's wife Joan was a daughter
and coheir of Sir William Ercall.
~ Sir William de Caverswell died 27 February 1349, having married
Mary, widow of Geoffrey de Langley, and leaving a son and heir: Peter
de Caverswell.
~ Sir Peter de Careswell ff 1380 - 1398, married Mary, and sold Ercall
to the Newport family.
This account may explain the confusion over the Carswell's coats of
arms. Anciently they used "fretty, with a fess" or similar, whereas
after the acquisition of Ercall, they seem to have adopted the Ercall
family's arms - not an unusual occurance for the time, when families
often dropped their own coat in favour of that of an heiress.
MA-R
~
Just a few more data points on the Manor of Caverswell.
We have heard already how William de Carswell was Sheriff of
Staffordshire 45H3
We can add to that that William has license to crenelate in 3E1
Richard de Caverswell, Knt was living in 1316 when he was holding
Caverswell but "under what authority we know not"
His son William de Carswell (Caverswell) was an adult by 1332 and
still alive that year when an inquest (not on him) found him holding
Caverswell under the Lord of Alveton.
Just a few tidbits so we can place the line in it's proper historical
setting.
Thanks, Will.
Some more grist to the mill is provided by Eyton, in his Antiquities
of Shropshire. He mentions the Caverswells in his treatment of
Ercall:
~ Richard, son and heir of Sir Richard de Caverswell, disposes of his
moveable property at Caverswell to Sir William de Ercall, 3 Edward II
(1309-10) [probably as a feoffee]
~ William de Caverswell disposes of his moveable property at Lutywode,
Staffs, to Sir William Ercall, 9 May 1334; on 1 July following, Sir
William Ercall made a settlement on him for life, with remainder to
William de Careswell and his heirs.
~ on the death of this Sir William Ercall, the manor of Ercall passed
to William de Caverswell, whom Eyton calls the son and heir of Richard
(ff 1309-10); he speculates that Richard's wife Joan was a daughter
and coheir of Sir William Ercall.
~ Sir William de Caverswell died 27 February 1349, having married
Mary, widow of Geoffrey de Langley, and leaving a son and heir: Peter
de Caverswell.
~ Sir Peter de Careswell ff 1380 - 1398, married Mary, and sold Ercall
to the Newport family.
This account may explain the confusion over the Carswell's coats of
arms. Anciently they used "fretty, with a fess" or similar, whereas
after the acquisition of Ercall, they seem to have adopted the Ercall
family's arms - not an unusual occurance for the time, when families
often dropped their own coat in favour of that of an heiress.
MA-R
~