pointed out to him and has been asked many times not to, perhaps we should
reply to his every message he thus sends , "not to be replied as is
crossposted". I am sorry now I just replied to him, and overlooked the
crossposting. If he thinks his message is so interesting to other groups, he
should send it separately, avoiding Gen-Med being swamped by garbage.
With best wishes
Leo van de Pas
---- Original Message -----
From: "Peter Stewart" <[email protected]>
Newsgroups: soc.genealogy.medieval
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Sunday, January 20, 2008 10:38 AM
Subject: Re: Children of Isabel of England (died 1241),wife of Emperor
Frederick II
A number of things are wrong in the post below, including the order of
birth of Isabel's children and the years of birth and death given.
But since this relies on 19th-century works citing mostly earlier modern
references, as if the famnily of Frederick II had been of no interest to
chroniclers of his own time or historians of the present time, it is
evidently just another fishing expedition on Richardson's part and not a
serious attempt to contribute or to engage in discussion of any
quesitonable points.
"When replying, please cite your sources if you have any, and provide your
weblinks" - professional, indeed.
When starting a thread, please do your own howework, sensibly, first.
And please refrain from inane cross-posting of purportedly genealogical
stuff to other newsgroups.
Peter Stewart
"Douglas Richardson" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:e1a9fcae-9927-4000-a44d-ed0f7c76bd1b@p69g2000hsa.googlegroups.com...
Dear Newsgroup ~
The historian, Mary Anne Everett Green, presents an interesting and
well researched biography of King John's daughter, Isabel of England,
in her book, Lives of the Princesses of England, 2 (1857): 1-48. This
biography is available online at the following weblink:
http://books.google.com/books?id=7N4KAA ... so#PPR1,M1
Isabel of England married in 1235 at Worms to Emperor Frederick II.
Green states that Isabel gave birth to four children in all, which are
listed below. The online database, http://www.mittelalter-genealogie.de,
however, only lists two children for Isabel, namely Heinrich and
Margaretha. Other sources list still other children, including a son,
Friedrich. The only thing on which modern sources seem to agree is
that only two children that survived Isabel and Frederick, namely one
son, Heinrich, born in 1238, and one daughter, Margaretha.
Here is the list of Isabel of England's children as provided by Mary
Anne Everett Green, with her sources noted:
1. Jordan (son), born at Ravenna in early 1236; died as an infant the
same year. Green, Lives of the Princesses of England 2 (1857): 30,
footnote 2 (citing Agostino Inveges Annali della felice Città di
Palermo (1649): 588; Rocchus Pirrus Chronologia Regum Siciliæ
Graevius, vol. v., col. 48; Raumer Geschichte der Hohenstaufen, vol.
iii., p. 703, note).
Note: Another source agrees with Green regarding the existence of this
child is Gregorovius, History of the City of Rome in the Middle Ages
5(1) (1906): 273, footnote 2.
2. Agnes (daughter), born in Feb. 1237. She died soon afterwards.
Green Lives of the Princesses of England 2 (1857): 34, footnote 1
(citing Agostino Inveges Annali della felice Città di Palermo (1649):
589; Epistolæ Petri de Vincis, book iii., No. 71; Rocchus Pirrus
Chronologia Regum SiciliæGraevius, vol. v., col. 48).
3. Heinrich, born 18 Feb. 1238. He was appointed Regent of Sicily
during his father's absence in Italy. He was a legatee in the 1250
will of his father, who bequeathed him either the kingdom of Arles or
Jerusalem, as his older half-brother, Conrad, might prefer. Henry
died in Dec. 1253-Jan. 1254. Green, Lives of the Princesses of
England 2 (1857): 34, footnotes 4, 5 (citing Paris, vol. ii., p. 455;
Epistolæ Petri de Vincis Letters, book iii., No. 70; Rocchus Pirrus
Chronologia Regum Siciliæ Graevius, vol. v., col. 48), 46, footnote 2.
For additional references for Heinrich, see: Kingston, History of
Frederick the Second, Emperor of the Romans 1 (1862): 477; 2 (1862):
62, 438, 471, 501, 505-507; Gregorovius, History of the City of Rome
in the Middle Ages 5(1) (1906): 273.
4. Margaretha (daughter), born at Foggia 1 Dec 1241. She married in
1254/5 (by contract dated 1245) (as his 1st wife) Albrecht II,
Margrave of Meissen, Landgrave of Thüringia. She died at Frankfurt 8
August 1270, and was buried in Frankfurt. Green, Lives of the
Princesses of England 2 (1857): 46, footnote 3 (citing Tentzel vita
Fred. II.; Menckenius Rer. Germ. Script. Ant., vol. ii., col. 897),
46, footnote 4 (citing "The 16th letter in the 5th book of De Vinea's
Epistles" for the marriage of Margaretha and Albrecht).
For additional references for Margaretha, see: Pertz, Annales aevi
Suevici (Monumenta Germaniæ Historica, Scriptores 16) (1859): 44
(Annales Veterocellenses sub A.D. 1270: "Margareta nobilis domina
lantgravia Thuringie, filia Friderici imperatoris, fugit die sancti
Iohannis baptiste; obiitque 6. Idus Augusti [8 August] eodem
anno.");Kingston, History of Frederick the Second, Emperor of the
Romans 1 (1862): 477; 2 (1862): 62, 347, 426-427. Online resources:
http://
http://www.mittelalter-genealogie.de/mi ... 1270.html;
http:// genealogy.euweb.cz/wettin/wettin2.html#AD.
+ + + + + + + + + + + + +
Further comments:
The historian Kingston cited above, 2 (1962): 426 states that
Margaretha, daughter of Emperor Frederick II and Isabel, was first
betrothed to the nephew of the deceased Thuringian king. "After the
death of her intended bridegroom, she had been sent to the margrave of
Meissen, one of the richest Princes in Germany owing to his silver
mines, to be to married his son Albert, who was then but four years
old." This information may be found at the following weblink:
http://books.google.com/books?id=E2Ypo2 ... #PPA426,M1
While this may all be true, if so, Margaretha can not have been born
in 1241 as claimed by Green. This is proven by the published Annales
Sancti Pantaleonis Coloniensis which records that Hermann, Landgrave
of Thüringia, repudiated an unnamed daughter of Emperor Frrederick II
sometime before his death in 1241 [Reference: Pertz, Historici
Germaniae saec. XII. (Monumenta Germaniæ Historica, Scriptores 22)
(1872): 536 (Annales Sancti Pantaleonis Coloniensis sub A.D. 1241:
"Ipso anno Hermannus landgravius filius sancte Elysabeth, obiit, qui,
repudiata filia imperatoris sibi desponsata, filia ducis de Brunswich
duxerat n uxorem."). Assuming that Kingston is correct that Hermann
was contracted to marry Margaretha, she can not have been born in
1241, as Hermann died in that year, he already having married someone
else. However, since Hermann's contracted spouse is not named in the
record, it is possible that his contracted spouse who was actually
Margaretha's older sister, Agnes, assuming Agnes really existed as
stated by Green. Quite possibly, the correct solution is that the
female child born in 1237 was actually Margaretha, and that Agnes does
not exist.
When replying, please cite your sources if you have any, and provide
your weblinks. Thank you.
Best always, Douglas Richardson, Salt Lake City, Utah
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