Robert le Constable

[mrdgen]

Greetings from a new list member!

I have been reading through the list archives for several years now,
and I must admit that I am thoroughly confused about the ancestry of
Robert le Constable of Flamborough, Yorkshire.

Specifically, in a thread entitled "Essex/Valognes/Fitz John", the
archives show a message from John Ravilious (dated 16 May 2004), in
which unshown descendants of Richard Fitz Eustace are suggested by the
line "from whom LACY Earls of Lincoln CONSTABLE of Flamborough, & c."
This agrees with several other posts in the archives which state that
Robert le Constable was a brother of Roger de Lacy, and indeed
received Flamborough from Roger de Lacy.

On the other hand, there is the thread entitled "Thomas de Thweng (d.
1374), and the Constables of Flamborough". In that thread, the
archives show a message from
John Ravilious (dated 4 October 2004) in which Robert le Constable of
Flamborough
was the son of Robert fitz William, son of William fitz William, who
was the son of William fitz Nigel.

Any help in resolving this?

Mike Darnel

[CE Wood]

You give John de Daiville and Maud de Percy as the parents of Juliana
de Daiville, rather than Robert de Deiville and Juliana de Montfort.
Have you confirmed this since your post of 6 Oct 2004, Thomas de
Thweng (d. 1374) and the Constables of Flamborough, in which you
stated:

"however, since we have no solid chronology, I have not been able to
rule out Juliana as a daughter of Robert de Daiville and Juliana de
Montfort (and therefore sister of John, husband of Maud de Percy)?"

CE Wood




On Jan 14, 1:44 pm, "John P. Ravilious" <[email protected]> wrote:

Monday, 14 January, 2008

Dear Mike,

As I have it, unfortunately the descent shown in the
May 2004 thread you mentioned should not have appeared.
The descent given in October 2004 is correct as I have it,
and have seen no evidence to date to amend same.

Below is the pedigree as I presently have it, down to
the issue of Sir Robert le Constable (d. bef 1272). In
addition, should you review the several postings
concerning this family, I highly recommend you review
the entire thread <The Other Heir of Magister Roger de
Arundel> from May 2007.

I have copied this to a few individuals who are most
likely to have corrective comments on this matter, if an
error or difference of opinion is noted.

Cheers,

John *

_________________________________________

The Constables of Flamborough

1 William fitz Nigel
----------------------------------------
Death: bef 1130[1],[2]
Father: Nigel

of Halton, Cheshire

constable of Chester

'Willelm filius Nigelli', tenant at Halton at Domesday Book,
1086 [DP 486[2] ]

acquired Flamborough after 1086:
" Willielmus filius Nigelli dedit ecclesiam de Flemeburhe"
{' he gave to Bridlington priory the church of Flamborough
for the soul of Adeliz his wife. ' - EYC XII:143, cites
Bridlington Chartulary, p. 177[3]}. See also Mon. Angl.
VI(1):286, Num. III[4], confirmation by King Henry I]

' The demesne tenant of the larger estate [at Flamborough,
co. Yorks.] in 1086 was Hugh son of Norman. Sometime after
1086 it passed to William son of Niel, whose father had
been created constable by Earl Hugh [of Chester]. William,
who died between 1125 and 1130, was succeeded by his son,
another William, who had died by 1139. The latter seems
to have had an illegitimate son, Robert the Constable
(fl. 1146-8, 1185), who succeeded to his father's estate
in Flamborough. This Robert was the ancestor of the
Constable family of Flamborough, whose name almost
certainly derived from the family's descent from the
constables of Chester. ' [VCH Yorks., II:154[5]]

VCH refs:
"[65] E. Y. C. xii, pp. 142-6; it has been suggested that
the first Robert was the son of William son of Niel:
T.E.R.A.S. xii. 1-3. Earlier accts. of the origin of
the Constable family, of Flamborough, are inaccurate:
T.E.R.A.S. vii. 15-16; viii. 51-69; E.R.R.O.,
DDEV/11/2. "[5]

one of the hereditary Barons of the Earldom of Chester:
contemporary of Hugh 'Lupus', who d. 1101
[CP III:165 note (b)[6]]

cf. EYC XII:142-5[3]
_____________________

re: his wife:

' he gave to Bridlington priory the church of Flamborough
for the soul of Adeliz his wife. ' [EYC XII:143, cites
Bridlington Chartulary, p. 177[3]]

Spouse: Adeliz
Death: bef 1130[3]

Children: Agnes
Matilda
William (-<1139)

1.1 William fitz William
----------------------------------------
Death: bef 1139, d.s.p.l.[3],[2]

of Halton, Cheshire

Constable of Chester
succeeded his father before 1130:
' in that year rendered account in Leicestershire of 40
marks of silver for the fine which the king made for him
against the earl of Chester.' [EYC XII:143, cites Pipe
Roll 31 Hen. I, p. 88[3]]

cf. DP 486[2]

he d. without legitimate issue, his heirs being his
sisters Agnes and Maud: re: his illegitimate son Robert
le Constable, see EYC XII:142-5[3]

Spouse: NN

Children: Roger
Robert fitz William (->1184) [1.1.2 below]

1.1.1 Roger fitz William
----------------------------------------

evidently illegitimate

"Roger filio Willielmi constabularii" ['Roger son of
William the constable'], witnessed a charter of Robert
son of the earl [EYC XII:145-6[3]; text in Mon.Angl.
VI(2):956, Num. VI[4]]

possibly made a gift to his brother Robert of his lands
in Flamborough - the Visitation pedigree calls him
'Roger [de] Lacy' in error:
'Rogerus Lacy dedit villam de Flamburgh Roberto
fratri suo.'
'Robert Counstable Lord of Flamboroo, ex dono
Rogeri fratris sui.'
[Visitation of Yorkshire, p. 64[7]]

1.1.2 Robert fitz William le Constable
----------------------------------------
Death: aft 1184[3]

illegitimate son

acquired a moiety of Holme upon Spaldingmore by marriage
[EYC XII:144[3]]

' Robert son of the constable', witness to charters of
Gilbert de Gant, earl of Lincoln to Bridlington priory,
1147-1156 [EYC XII:144, cites EYC II, no. 1157, 1219[3]]

'Robert son of William the constable of Chester', witness
to charter of Earl Gilbert to Rufford Abbey (1146-8 or
later) [EYC XII:144, cites Mon. Ang. v, 518[3]]

fl. in 1185 [EYC XII:144, ref. to Pipe Roll 31 Hen. II,
p. 75[3]]

identified as distinct from his son Robert 'II' by
L. C. Loyd [Farrer, EYC XII:144[3]]
________________________

possibly received his brother Roger's lands in Flamborough by his gift
- the Visitation pedigree calls his brother 'Roger de Lacy' in error
[Visitation of Yorkshire, p. 64[7]]

Note: his wife was previously identified as a coheir of
William Tison. See Rosie Bevan, et al., <The Other Heir
of Magister Roger de Arundel> [17]

Spouse: NN

Children: Robert (-<1208)

1.1.2.1 Robert le Constable
----------------------------------------
Death: bef 1208[3],[8]

of Flamborough and Holme upon Spalding Moor, co. Yorks.

' Roberto Constabulario de Holme ', witness of the gift of
his cousin John de Beauver 'in pure alms' of 7 acres and
appurtenances in Holme to the church of St. Germanus of
Selby [Selby Cartulary, No. DCCXX pp. 26-27[9] ]

' Robertus Constabularius del Holme ', made a gift of land
in Holme adjacent to their lands of 'Huluerhirst' and
'Altunacroft' - Selby Cartulary, No. DCCXXVIII pp. 31-32[9]

identified as distinct from his father Robert, son of
William, by L. C. Loyd [Farrer, EYC XII:144[3]]

' Robertus constabularius de Flamesburgh', gave 40 bovates
of land in Hilderthorp to Watton priory, witnessed by his
wife's uncle Master Roger Arundel ("magistro Rogero
Arundel") and others [Mon. Angl. VI(2):955, Num. V[4]]

" Robertus constabularius de Fleynesburgh et Willelmus
filius suus ", granted a charter to North Ormsby priory of
pasture in Holme upon Spalding Moor for specified numbers
of animals and 11 acres of land, for 10 marks of silver
and 44d. yearly, before 1208. Witnesses, William fitz
Peter of Goodmanham, Richard de la Hay [" Willelmo filio
Petri de Gudmundham, Ricardo de la Hay,..."] and others.
[EYC XII:94-95, no. 70, cites Transcripts of Gilbertine
Charters, p. 65]

cf. EYC XII:146[3]
Rosie Bevan, et al., <The Other Heir of Magister
Roger de Arundel> [17]

Spouse: Eufemia Tison
Father: William Tison (-<1181)
Mother: Alice

Children: William
Agnes, m. Philip de la Haye

1.1.2.1.1 William le Constable
----------------------------------------

of Flamborough, co. Yorks.

grantor (together with his father) of a charter to North
Ormsby priory, dated before 1208:
" Robertus constabularius de Fleynesburgh et Willelmus
filius suus ", granted a charter to North Ormsby priory
of pasture in Holme upon Spalding Moor for specified
numbers of animals and 11 acres of land, for 10 marks
of silver and 44d. yearly, before 1208. Witnesses,
William fitz Peter of Goodmanham, Richard de la Hay
[" Willelmo filio Petri de Gudmundham, Ricardo de la
Hay,..."] and others. [EYC XII:94-95, no. 70, cites
Transcripts of Gilbertine Charters, p. 65]

" WILL's COSTAB' de FLEMBURG' ", mandated as to the seisin
of Thomas de Birkin, Nicholas de Anesty and others of
their inheritance from Magister Roger de Arundel, 19
June 1221:
' 5o HEN. III. A.D. 1221

Ebor.
Rex Vic Ebor salt. Si WILL's COSTAB' de FLEMBURG't JOH's de
BEAUVER copticipes THOME de HOTHU NICH'I de ANESTI
t THOME de BIRKIN de tris q funt MAG'RI ROG'I de ARUNDELL'
fecint te secur de reddendo nob q*ntu ad eos ptinet de
debito qd ide Magr Rogus cuj hedes ipi sut nob debuit
ita qd respodeat in nob ad sccm Sci Mich anno r. n. v*. de
tio Sci Johis Bapt pximo ptito t de eod tio Sci Mich t sic
deinceps ad alios tminos q pdcis Thome de Hothu Nicho
de Anesti t Thome de Birkin costituti sut ad sccm ni*m:
tuc su diloe plena saisina hre facias pdcis Willo t Johi
de ptibus suis q eos contigut de pdcis tris in bailla tua
de quib* dissaisiti funt occoe pdci debiti.
T. H. tc. ap Ebor xix. die Jun. ' [Excerpta I:66][10]

" Willelmus Constabularius de Flainburg' ", gave his assart
'called Huluerhirst' and other lands in Holme to the church
of St. Germanus of Selby, witnessed by Gerard Salvain and
his cousin John de Beauver [Selby Cartulary, No. DCCXXIX
p. 32[9]]

William de 'Flemesburgh' , gave lands in Pickwell and
Leesthorpe, co. Leics. (1/3 of 13 bovates) to Stephen
de Segrave, ca. 1222-1241 [Nichols, Vol. I, Appendix
XIII: Chartulary of the Honour of Segrave, p. 119,
no. 182][11]

inherited lands in Nafferton (Dickering wapentake), co.
Yorks. as a coheir of Magister Roger Arundel [VCH Yorks.,
II:287[5]]

his inheritance from Master Roger Arundel incl. a quarter
of the advowson of Foston church, Foston on the Wolds.,
Dickering wapentake in East Riding, co. Yorks. [VCH
Yorks., II:180 et seq.[5]]

exchanged certain lands of the Arundel inheritance with
John de Beauvoir [A2A, East Riding of Yorkshire Archives
and Records Service: Chichester-Constable Family
[DDCC/111 - DDCC/135], DDCC/135/2/p64/1[12]

actual lands in Foston which may have been inherited have
not been proved
_________________________

referred to in a suit dated 1298 against his grandson:
' 14. A.D. 1298. - The Prior of Brydelington v. William
le Conestable of Flaynburgh for distraining four horses,
beasts of the plough at Flaynburgh, contrary to law, and
also for impounding 9 score and 18 sheep. The defendant
says that he took the horses because they were in his
corn; and as to the sheep, he says that the Prior holds
two tofts and five bovates of land of him in Flaynburgh
by homage and fealty, of which services William le
Constable his grandfather (whose heir he is) was in
seisin at the hands of Thomas, formerly Prior, and as
the homage was in arrear, he distrained the present
Prior. ' [YAS XVII:21, cites De Banco, East. 26 Edw.
I. m. 45 d.[14]]

his grandson " Dominus Willelmus Constabularius de
Flainburg' ", made an inspeximus of the gifts of land in
Holme to St. Germanus of Selby by his ancestors Adam
Tison, William Tison, William le Constable his
grandfather and Robert le Constable his father ' in
free, pure and perpetual alms' [ ' Willelmus, avus
meus, et Robertus, pater meus, dederunt dictis
religiosis in li., pur et perp. el. ' ] - Selby
Cartulary DCCXXXII, pp. 33-35
_________________________

re: his wife Juliana:

Gift dated ca. 1267/90 :
' Matilda daughter of Robert son of Godfrey de Holm to
Juliana (Gillian) de Dayvill wife of William the Constable
property selion in Bonnecroft, lying between the sections
sometime of Peter Bernard and of Thomas de Belvero Witn.
Laurence de Flamburg.' - A2A, East Riding of Yorkshire
Archives and Records Service: Chichester-Constable Family
[DDCC/111 - DDCC/135], DDCC/135/2/p24/2[12]

Gift:
' Matilda daughter of Robert son of Godfrey de Holm to
Juliana de Eyvil widow of William the Constable property
1 selion in Barnecroft (lying between selions sometimes
of Peter Bernard and of Thomas de Belvero Witn. Laurence
de Fleineburo, Roger de Lyverseg, Odo de Greynesby,
Geoffrey de Mora, Jordan de Mora, Reginald son of
Godfrey, William the clerk.' A2A, East Riding of
Yorkshire Archives and Records Service:
Chichester-Constable Family [DDCC/111 - DDCC/135],
DDCC/135/2/p58/1[12]

fl. 1267 [EYC XII:147[3]; also PRO, as above]

_______________________________

cf. EYC XII:146-7[11]
J. Ravilious and Rosie Bevan, 'Magister Roger de
Arundel and the Birkins of Laxton, co. Notts.'[15]
J.C.B. Sharp, 'Constable Connections!'[8]

Spouse: Juliana de Daiville
Death: aft 23 Nov 1267[16],[12],[3]
Father: John de Daiville, of Egmanton, Notts. (->1228)
Mother: Maud de Percy

Children: Robert (-<1272)
Richard (->1258)
John
Henry
Theobald

1.1.2.1.1.1 Robert le Constable
----------------------------------------
Death: bef 1272[8]

of Flamborough, co. Yorks.

held half a knight's fee in co. Yorks. of Roger de
Mowbray, evidently in Holme upon Spaldingmore, together
with John de Beauver [EYC XII:147, cites Bk of Fees,
p. 1097[3]]

knight, as recorded 22 April 1246 and 30 Sept 1251[3]

agreement between William de Vescy and Robert le Constable
dated 24 February 1246-7, witnessed by Peter de la Hay of
Spaldington and others [EYC XII:88[3]]

' Between 1231 and 1249 Agnes of Newton, daughter of Otes of
Flamborough, gave 2 1/2 bovates to Robert the Constable. '
[VCH Yorks., II:155, cites E.R.R.O., DDCC/App.A/p. 46,
no. 2[5]]

Quitclaim dated c. 1260:
' William de Fenwye rector of Bolingbroc to his lord Sir
Robert the Constable son of Sir William the Constable
property all claim he might have in Sir R's. fee of Holm
of the gift of Sir W. Rendering 12d. yearly to the church
of All Saints of Holm to buy wine for services.
Witn. Sir John parson of Holm, Thomas de Hotham, Jordan
son of Godfrey, John Hubert, William Armigero, Henry the
Constable, Richard de Cokerington. ' - A2A, East Riding
of Yorkshire Archives and Records Service:
Chichester-Constable Family [DDCC/111 - DDCC/135],
DDCC/135/2/p45/2[12]

record of an agreement with Bridlington priory, dated
'the day of St Clement' [23 Nov] 1267:
' In the year of grace 1267, the day of St Clement, Pope
and Martyr, in the Church of St Oswald of Flaynburg,
present Sirs (dominis) William de Rudstan and James de
Mora, kts, (fo. 131b) and also the fishermen,
parishioners of Flaynburg, the contention raised between
the Prior and Convent of Bridel[ington] of the one part
and Dom. Robert Constable and his men, fishers of
Flaynburg, of the other, respecting the tithes of
fishing, was amicably settled in this mode: - Robert
for himself and his heirs, with the assent of the lady
Juliana his mother,...' [Chart. Bridlington, pp.
178-9[16]; ref. also EYC XII:147, cites Bridlington
priory, p. 178[3]]

Quitclaim, dated aft. 1267:
' Peter Bernard of Holm to Dame Juliana Deyvil and her son
Sir Robert the Constable, property: assart called Bulmar
and all his other assarts and inclosures in Holm since
Thurs. before Exaltation of Holy Cross Reserving common
of pasture after hay and corn have been carried away.
Witn. Sir John the parson of Holm.' - A2A, East
Riding of Yorkshire Archives and Records Service:
Chichester-Constable Family [DDCC/111 - DDCC/135],
DDCC/135/2/p10/1[12]

named in grant to his wife, dated 'c. early 13th cent.'
[in error; est. ca. 1270-1280]:
' Robert Salvayn son of Sir Gerard Salvayne to Dame Agnes
wife of Sir Robert de Flaynburge the Constable property
Robert Paris with all his family and chattels
Witn. William de Holm. '
- A2A, East Riding of Yorkshire Archives and Records
Service: Chichester-Constable Family [DDCC/111 - DDCC/135],
DDCC/135/2/p25/1[12]

charter of Robert le Constable of Flamborough to priory
of St. German, Selby of his lands and claims in
'Risebriggker', witnessed by his cousin Sir Adam de
Everingham, 1272 or before [Coucher Book of Selby p. 36,
No. DCCXXXVI[9]]

Spouse: Agnes

Children: Sir William (->1319)
John
Robert
Lettice, m. Thomas de Houton

1. Paul C. Reed, FASG, "Re: WILLIAM FITZNIGEL, CONSTABLE
OF CHESTER, LORD OF HALTON CASTLE," June 23, 1998,
[email protected], cites Geoffrey Barraclough
("Some charters of the Earls of Chester"), 28-9,, in
_A Medieval Misceellany for Doris Mary Stenton _ [Pipe
Roll Society, 1962].
2. Katherine S. B. Keats-Rohan, "Domesday People," The
Boydell Press, 1999, Vol. I: A Prosopography of Persons
Occurring in English Documents 1066-1166, cites Robert
de Torigni, Interpolations to Gesta Normannorum Ducum
of Guillaume of Jumieges, (ed. van Houts, ii, 270) and
identification of Gilbert fitzRichard as uncle of Meen,
seigneur de Fougeres (Rouleau Mortuaire du B. Vital
abbe de Savigni, edition phototypique par L. Delisle
Paris (1909), titre no. 182).
3. William Farrer, Hon.D.Litt., Editor, "Early Yorkshire
Charters," Edinburgh: Ballantyne, Hanson & Co.,
1915-1916, Vol. I (1914), Vol. II (1915) Vol. III
(1916), Vol. XII [the family of Constable of
Flamborough], courtesy Rosie Bevan, Vol. V [Manfield
fee, pp. 53-58 ], courtesy Rosie Bevan, Vol. IX
[Stuteville fee].
4. Sir William Dugdale, "Monasticon Anglicanum," London:
Harding & Lepard; and Longman Rees... Green, 1830,
Vol. VI, Pt. 1 - Austin Abbey of Wigmore, in
Herefordshire, pp. 348-356 [Fundationis et Fundatorum
Historia], Vol. VI, Pt. 2 - Priory of Bullington, co.
Lincs., pp. 951-954, URL http://monasticmatrix.usc.edu/bibliogra ... =detail....
5. K. J. Allison, ed., "A History of the County of York,
East Riding," Oxford: published for the Institute of
Historical Research, Oxford Univ. Press, 1974, Vol. II.
6. G. E. Cokayne, "The Complete Peerage," 1910 -
[microprint, 1982 (Alan Sutton) ], The Complete Peerage
of England Scotland Ireland Great Britain and the
United Kingdom.
7. "The Visitation of Yorkshire," Harleian Soc., William
Flower, Esquire, Norroy King of Arms, Harleian Series,
Vol. 16, Mitchell and Hughes, Printers, London, 1881,
'The Visitation of Yorkshire in the Years 1563 and 1564'
8. J. C. B. Sharp, "Constable Connections!," Sept 15,
2000, [email protected], citing C. T. Clay,
Early Yorkshire Charteres, xii, pp. 142-151.
9. The Rev. J. T. Fowler, M.A., F.S.A., "The Coucher Book
of Selby [Cartularium Abbathiae S. Germani de
Seleby]," The Yorkshire Archaeological and
Topographical Association, Record Series, Vol. II
(Record series vol. XIII) - 1893.
10. Charles Roberts, ed., "Excerpta ex Rotulis Finium,"
The Commissioners of the Public Records of the Kingdom,
Vol I (1216-1246), 1835, full title: Excerpta e Rotulis
Finium in Turri Londinensi asservatis, Henrico Tertio
Rege, A.D. 1216-1272.
11. John Nichols, F.S.A., "The History and Antiquities of
the County of Leicester," London: Printed By and For
John Nichols, 1795, Vol. I, Appendix XIII: Chartulary
of the Honour of Segrave; Vol. II, Pt. II (Gartre
Hundred); Vol. III, Pt. I (East Gascote Hundred) - 1800.
12. "Access to Archives,"http://www.a2a.pro.gov.uk/
13. Rosie Bevan, "Re: Magister Roger de Arundel and the
Birkins of Laxton, co. Notts.," June 14, 2003,
[email protected], cites EYC X pp. 170-2
(Trussebut fee), XI pp. 196-202 (Percy fee), and XII
pp. 144-6 (Tison fee) re: William de Arundel, of
Foston on the Wolds, co.Yorks., & c.
14. William Paley Baildon, F.S.A., "Notes on the Religious
and Secular Houses of Yorkshire, Vol. I," The Yorkshire
Archaeological Society Record Series, Vol. XVII,
Printed for the Society, 1894.
15. John P. Ravilious, "Re: Magister Roger de Arundel and
the Birkins of Laxton, co. Notts.," April 18, 2003,
[email protected], cites charter of John de
Birkin, Joan his wife and Dionisia (her sister) widow
of William de Glanville, to monks of Watton (Records
of the Anglo-Norman House of Glanville,, text athttp://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepa ... oanhg2.htm
16. W. T. Lancaster, F.S.A., ed., "Abstracts of the
Charters and other documents contained in the Chartulary
of the Priory of Bridlington," Leeds: J. Whitehead and
Son, printers, 1912.
17. Rosie Bevan, John Watson, and Michael Andrews-Reading,
The Other Heir of Magister Roger de Arundel, SGM, May
2007.

* John P. Ravilious

On Jan 14, 1:16 pm, mrdgen <[email protected]> wrote:> Greetings from a new list member!

I have been reading through the list archives for several years now,
and I must admit that I am thoroughly confused about the ancestry of
Robert le Constable of Flamborough, Yorkshire.

Specifically, in a thread entitled "Essex/Valognes/Fitz John", the
archives show a message from John Ravilious (dated 16 May 2004), in
which unshown descendants of Richard Fitz Eustace are suggested by the
line "from whom LACY Earls of Lincoln CONSTABLE of Flamborough, & c."
This agrees with several other posts in the archives which state that
Robert le Constable was a brother of Roger de Lacy, and indeed
received Flamborough from Roger de Lacy.

On the other hand, there is the thread entitled "Thomas de Thweng (d.
1374), and the Constables of Flamborough". In that thread, the
archives show a message from
John Ravilious (dated 4 October 2004) in which Robert le Constable of
Flamborough
was the son of Robert fitz William, son of William fitz William, who
was the son of William fitz Nigel.

Any help in resolving this?

Mike Darnel

[John P. Ravilious]

Dear CEW,

Since the post in question (2004), I have revisited the details
concerning the Constable and de Daiville families periodically. While
the earlier statement still stands, that Juliana (wife of William le
Constable) can not be ruled out as a daughter of Robert de Daiville
and Juliana de Montfort, I think the chronology that is known makes it
more probable that she was their granddaughter, and a daughter of John
de Daiville and Maud de Percy:

1. Robert de Daiville and Juliana de Montfort (his 2nd wife)
were married before 1170: presumably close to this date,
but Rosie Bevan [Re: Stuteville of Cottingham, SGM,
8 September 2002] placed the agreement as to her dower in
the period 1154x1170. We can reasonably place Juliana
de Montfort's birthdate in a range of say 1140 x 1158, and
while possibly extending this somewhat earlier, I think
a narrow range of say 1150 x 1155 would seem reasonable.

2. Juliana's younger son Nicholas de Daiville was an
active supporter of Prince John in 1195 [Oscar De Ville,
John Deyville: A Neglected Rebel, Northern History
XXXIV:38-39]. Placing his birth say 1172 x 1177 would
seem reasonable. Placing his elder brother John's
birth in a range of say 1168 x 1175 also would work with
the above guess for Juliana de Montfort being born say
1150 x 1155, and starting producing her children just
before or after 1170.

3. From the foregoing, it is likely that Juliana de Montfort
would have been aged 40 in about 1190 x 1195, and would
have ceased producing issue say 1195 x 1200. For Juliana
de Daiville, wife of William le Constable, to have been
her daughter, she would have been aged say 67 to 72 in
1267 when she is last on record: pushing her birth to an
earlier (perhaps more conventional) period of say 1175 x
1185 would make her aged say 82 to 92 in 1267, which
would appear somewhat unlikely. Not impossible, but
unlikely.

4. Juliana de Daiville's husband was a grantor of a charter
to North Ormsby priory together with his father some
time before 1208 [EYC XII:94-95, no. 70, cites Transcripts
of Gilbertine Charters, p. 65]. Their younger son John
was instituted to Egmanton 'presumably earlier than 1244'
[EYC XII:147, note 8]. Likely John was born say 1215x1220,
and (given typical institutions of young well-born priests)
I'd say likely into the latter part of this range. This
would work well with an approximate birth range for William
le Constable (Juliana's husband) of say 1185x1190.

Given the foregoing, there is much conjecture, but an approximate
reasonable range for Juliana de Daiville's birth of say 1190x1200
seems reasonable. This is still in the conjectured 'reasonable' birth
range for Juliana de Montfort, but there are details on the Percy side
to consider:

1. Joscelin de Louvain, husband of Agnes de Percy and father of
Maud
(wife of John de Daiville) died ca. 1180. We know Maud de
Percy
was certainly born before that date, and presumably somewhat
before.

2. Maud's brother Henry de Percy was married to Isabel de Brus,
and had his son and heir William born ca. 1193 [CP].

It would seem quite likely that Maud de Percy was producing issue
not much earlier than that date (1193), and very possibly in a range
of say 1190 to 1220 herself (depending on how close to 1180 she was
born). If Juliana de Daiville were in fact born say 1190 to 1200,
this would fit very well with the conjectured dates for her mother
Maud de Percy, and those currently conjectured for her younger son
John.

Add to this the limited potential for Juliana de Montfort to have
been Juliana de Daiville's mother as noted above, and I think it most
likely (if not proven) that John de Daiviile and Maud de Percy were
Juliana de Daiville's parents.

Cheers,

John






On Jan 15, 8:16 pm, CE Wood <[email protected]> wrote:

You give John de Daiville and Maud de Percy as the parents of Juliana
de Daiville, rather than Robert de Deiville and Juliana de Montfort.
Have you confirmed this since your post of 6 Oct 2004, Thomas de
Thweng (d. 1374) and the Constables of Flamborough, in which you
stated:

"however, since we have no solid chronology, I have not been able to
rule out Juliana as a daughter of Robert de Daiville and Juliana de
Montfort (and therefore sister of John, husband of Maud de Percy)?"

CE Wood

On Jan 14, 1:44 pm, "John P. Ravilious" <[email protected]> wrote:

Monday, 14 January, 2008

Dear Mike,

As I have it, unfortunately the descent shown in the
May 2004 thread you mentioned should not have appeared.
The descent given in October 2004 is correct as I have it,
and have seen no evidence to date to amend same.

Below is the pedigree as I presently have it, down to
the issue of Sir Robert le Constable (d. bef 1272). In
addition, should you review the several postings
concerning this family, I highly recommend you review
the entire thread <The Other Heir of Magister Roger de
Arundel> from May 2007.

I have copied this to a few individuals who are most
likely to have corrective comments on this matter, if an
error or difference of opinion is noted.

Cheers,

John *

_________________________________________

The Constables of Flamborough

1 William fitz Nigel
----------------------------------------
Death: bef 1130[1],[2]
Father: Nigel

of Halton, Cheshire

constable of Chester

'Willelm filius Nigelli', tenant at Halton at Domesday Book,
1086 [DP 486[2] ]

acquired Flamborough after 1086:
" Willielmus filius Nigelli dedit ecclesiam de Flemeburhe"
{' he gave to Bridlington priory the church of Flamborough
for the soul of Adeliz his wife. ' - EYC XII:143, cites
Bridlington Chartulary, p. 177[3]}. See also Mon. Angl.
VI(1):286, Num. III[4], confirmation by King Henry I]

' The demesne tenant of the larger estate [at Flamborough,
co. Yorks.] in 1086 was Hugh son of Norman. Sometime after
1086 it passed to William son of Niel, whose father had
been created constable by Earl Hugh [of Chester]. William,
who died between 1125 and 1130, was succeeded by his son,
another William, who had died by 1139. The latter seems
to have had an illegitimate son, Robert the Constable
(fl. 1146-8, 1185), who succeeded to his father's estate
in Flamborough. This Robert was the ancestor of the
Constable family of Flamborough, whose name almost
certainly derived from the family's descent from the
constables of Chester. ' [VCH Yorks., II:154[5]]

VCH refs:
"[65] E. Y. C. xii, pp. 142-6; it has been suggested that
the first Robert was the son of William son of Niel:
T.E.R.A.S. xii. 1-3. Earlier accts. of the origin of
the Constable family, of Flamborough, are inaccurate:
T.E.R.A.S. vii. 15-16; viii. 51-69; E.R.R.O.,
DDEV/11/2. "[5]

one of the hereditary Barons of the Earldom of Chester:
contemporary of Hugh 'Lupus', who d. 1101
[CP III:165 note (b)[6]]

cf. EYC XII:142-5[3]
_____________________

re: his wife:

' he gave to Bridlington priory the church of Flamborough
for the soul of Adeliz his wife. ' [EYC XII:143, cites
Bridlington Chartulary, p. 177[3]]

Spouse: Adeliz
Death: bef 1130[3]

Children: Agnes
Matilda
William (-<1139)

1.1 William fitz William
----------------------------------------
Death: bef 1139, d.s.p.l.[3],[2]

of Halton, Cheshire

Constable of Chester
succeeded his father before 1130:
' in that year rendered account in Leicestershire of 40
marks of silver for the fine which the king made for him
against the earl of Chester.' [EYC XII:143, cites Pipe
Roll 31 Hen. I, p. 88[3]]

cf. DP 486[2]

he d. without legitimate issue, his heirs being his
sisters Agnes and Maud: re: his illegitimate son Robert
le Constable, see EYC XII:142-5[3]

Spouse: NN

Children: Roger
Robert fitz William (->1184) [1.1.2 below]

1.1.1 Roger fitz William
----------------------------------------

evidently illegitimate

"Roger filio Willielmi constabularii" ['Roger son of
William the constable'], witnessed a charter of Robert
son of the earl [EYC XII:145-6[3]; text in Mon.Angl.
VI(2):956, Num. VI[4]]

possibly made a gift to his brother Robert of his lands
in Flamborough - the Visitation pedigree calls him
'Roger [de] Lacy' in error:
'Rogerus Lacy dedit villam de Flamburgh Roberto
fratri suo.'
'Robert Counstable Lord of Flamboroo, ex dono
Rogeri fratris sui.'
[Visitation of Yorkshire, p. 64[7]]

1.1.2 Robert fitz William le Constable
----------------------------------------
Death: aft 1184[3]

illegitimate son

acquired a moiety of Holme upon Spaldingmore by marriage
[EYC XII:144[3]]

' Robert son of the constable', witness to charters of
Gilbert de Gant, earl of Lincoln to Bridlington priory,
1147-1156 [EYC XII:144, cites EYC II, no. 1157, 1219[3]]

'Robert son of William the constable of Chester', witness
to charter of Earl Gilbert to Rufford Abbey (1146-8 or
later) [EYC XII:144, cites Mon. Ang. v, 518[3]]

fl. in 1185 [EYC XII:144, ref. to Pipe Roll 31 Hen. II,
p. 75[3]]

identified as distinct from his son Robert 'II' by
L. C. Loyd [Farrer, EYC XII:144[3]]
________________________

possibly received his brother Roger's lands in Flamborough by his gift
- the Visitation pedigree calls his brother 'Roger de Lacy' in error
[Visitation of Yorkshire, p. 64[7]]

Note: his wife was previously identified as a coheir of
William Tison. See Rosie Bevan, et al., <The Other Heir
of Magister Roger de Arundel> [17]

Spouse: NN

Children: Robert (-<1208)

1.1.2.1 Robert le Constable
----------------------------------------
Death: bef 1208[3],[8]

of Flamborough and Holme upon Spalding Moor, co. Yorks.

' Roberto Constabulario de Holme ', witness of the gift of
his cousin John de Beauver 'in pure alms' of 7 acres and
appurtenances in Holme to the church of St. Germanus of
Selby [Selby Cartulary, No. DCCXX pp. 26-27[9] ]

' Robertus Constabularius del Holme ', made a gift of land
in Holme adjacent to their lands of 'Huluerhirst' and
'Altunacroft' - Selby Cartulary, No. DCCXXVIII pp. 31-32[9]

identified as distinct from his father Robert, son of
William, by L. C. Loyd [Farrer, EYC XII:144[3]]

' Robertus constabularius de Flamesburgh', gave 40 bovates
of land in Hilderthorp to Watton priory, witnessed by his
wife's uncle Master Roger Arundel ("magistro Rogero
Arundel") and others [Mon. Angl. VI(2):955, Num. V[4]]

" Robertus constabularius de Fleynesburgh et Willelmus
filius suus ", granted a charter to North Ormsby priory of
pasture in Holme upon Spalding Moor for specified numbers
of animals and 11 acres of land, for 10 marks of silver
and 44d. yearly, before 1208. Witnesses, William fitz
Peter of Goodmanham, Richard de la Hay [" Willelmo filio
Petri de Gudmundham, Ricardo de la Hay,..."] and others.
[EYC XII:94-95, no. 70, cites Transcripts of Gilbertine
Charters, p. 65]

cf. EYC XII:146[3]
Rosie Bevan, et al., <The Other Heir of Magister
Roger de Arundel> [17]

Spouse: Eufemia Tison
Father: William Tison (-<1181)
Mother: Alice

Children: William
Agnes, m. Philip de la Haye

1.1.2.1.1 William le Constable
----------------------------------------

of Flamborough, co. Yorks.

grantor (together with his father) of a charter to North
Ormsby priory, dated before 1208:
" Robertus constabularius de Fleynesburgh et Willelmus
filius suus ", granted a charter to North Ormsby priory
of pasture in Holme upon Spalding Moor for specified
numbers of animals and 11 acres of land, for 10 marks
of silver and 44d. yearly, before 1208. Witnesses,
William fitz Peter of Goodmanham, Richard de la Hay
[" Willelmo filio Petri de Gudmundham, Ricardo de la
Hay,..."] and others. [EYC XII:94-95, no. 70, cites
Transcripts of Gilbertine Charters, p. 65]

" WILL's COSTAB' de FLEMBURG' ", mandated as to the seisin
of Thomas de Birkin, Nicholas de Anesty and others of
their inheritance from Magister Roger de Arundel, 19
June 1221:
' 5o HEN. III. A.D. 1221

Ebor.
Rex Vic Ebor salt. Si WILL's COSTAB' de FLEMBURG't JOH's de
BEAUVER copticipes THOME de HOTHU NICH'I de ANESTI
t THOME de BIRKIN de tris q funt MAG'RI ROG'I de ARUNDELL'
fecint te secur de reddendo nob q*ntu ad eos ptinet de
debito qd ide Magr Rogus cuj hedes ipi sut nob debuit
ita qd respodeat in nob ad sccm Sci Mich anno r. n. v*. de
tio Sci Johis Bapt pximo ptito t de eod tio Sci Mich t sic
deinceps ad alios tminos q pdcis Thome de Hothu Nicho
de Anesti t Thome de Birkin costituti sut ad sccm ni*m:
tuc su diloe plena saisina hre facias pdcis Willo t Johi
de ptibus suis q eos contigut de pdcis tris in bailla tua
de quib* dissaisiti funt occoe pdci debiti.
T. H. tc. ap Ebor xix. die Jun. ' [Excerpta I:66][10]

" Willelmus Constabularius de Flainburg' ", gave his assart
'called Huluerhirst' and other lands in Holme to the church
of St. Germanus of Selby, witnessed by Gerard Salvain and
his cousin John de Beauver [Selby Cartulary, No. DCCXXIX
p. 32[9]]

William de 'Flemesburgh' , gave lands in Pickwell and
Leesthorpe, co. Leics. (1/3 of 13 bovates) to Stephen
de Segrave, ca. 1222-1241 [Nichols, Vol. I, Appendix
XIII: Chartulary of the Honour of Segrave, p. 119,
no. 182][11]

inherited lands in Nafferton (Dickering wapentake), co.
Yorks. as a coheir of Magister Roger

...

read more »

[CE Wood]

Thank you for your usual, detailed and thorough explanation!

CEWood

On Jan 15, 7:01 pm, "John P. Ravilious" <[email protected]> wrote:

Dear CEW,

Since the post in question (2004), I have revisited the details
concerning the Constable and de Daiville families periodically. While
the earlier statement still stands, that Juliana (wife of William le
Constable) can not be ruled out as a daughter of Robert de Daiville
and Juliana de Montfort, I think the chronology that is known makes it
more probable that she was their granddaughter, and a daughter of John
de Daiville and Maud de Percy:

1. Robert de Daiville and Juliana de Montfort (his 2nd wife)
were married before 1170: presumably close to this date,
but Rosie Bevan [Re: Stuteville of Cottingham, SGM,
8 September 2002] placed the agreement as to her dower in
the period 1154x1170. We can reasonably place Juliana
de Montfort's birthdate in a range of say 1140 x 1158, and
while possibly extending this somewhat earlier, I think
a narrow range of say 1150 x 1155 would seem reasonable.

2. Juliana's younger son Nicholas de Daiville was an
active supporter of Prince John in 1195 [Oscar De Ville,
John Deyville: A Neglected Rebel, Northern History
XXXIV:38-39]. Placing his birth say 1172 x 1177 would
seem reasonable. Placing his elder brother John's
birth in a range of say 1168 x 1175 also would work with
the above guess for Juliana de Montfort being born say
1150 x 1155, and starting producing her children just
before or after 1170.

3. From the foregoing, it is likely that Juliana de Montfort
would have been aged 40 in about 1190 x 1195, and would
have ceased producing issue say 1195 x 1200. For Juliana
de Daiville, wife of William le Constable, to have been
her daughter, she would have been aged say 67 to 72 in
1267 when she is last on record: pushing her birth to an
earlier (perhaps more conventional) period of say 1175 x
1185 would make her aged say 82 to 92 in 1267, which
would appear somewhat unlikely. Not impossible, but
unlikely.

4. Juliana de Daiville's husband was a grantor of a charter
to North Ormsby priory together with his father some
time before 1208 [EYC XII:94-95, no. 70, cites Transcripts
of Gilbertine Charters, p. 65]. Their younger son John
was instituted to Egmanton 'presumably earlier than 1244'
[EYC XII:147, note 8]. Likely John was born say 1215x1220,
and (given typical institutions of young well-born priests)
I'd say likely into the latter part of this range. This
would work well with an approximate birth range for William
le Constable (Juliana's husband) of say 1185x1190.

Given the foregoing, there is much conjecture, but an approximate
reasonable range for Juliana de Daiville's birth of say 1190x1200
seems reasonable. This is still in the conjectured 'reasonable' birth
range for Juliana de Montfort, but there are details on the Percy side
to consider:

1. Joscelin de Louvain, husband of Agnes de Percy and father of
Maud
(wife of John de Daiville) died ca. 1180. We know Maud de
Percy
was certainly born before that date, and presumably somewhat
before.

2. Maud's brother Henry de Percy was married to Isabel de Brus,
and had his son and heir William born ca. 1193 [CP].

It would seem quite likely that Maud de Percy was producing issue
not much earlier than that date (1193), and very possibly in a range
of say 1190 to 1220 herself (depending on how close to 1180 she was
born). If Juliana de Daiville were in fact born say 1190 to 1200,
this would fit very well with the conjectured dates for her mother
Maud de Percy, and those currently conjectured for her younger son
John.

Add to this the limited potential for Juliana de Montfort to have
been Juliana de Daiville's mother as noted above, and I think it most
likely (if not proven) that John de Daiviile and Maud de Percy were
Juliana de Daiville's parents.

Cheers,

John

On Jan 15, 8:16 pm, CE Wood <[email protected]> wrote:

You give John de Daiville and Maud de Percy as the parents of Juliana
de Daiville, rather than Robert de Deiville and Juliana de Montfort.
Have you confirmed this since your post of 6 Oct 2004, Thomas de
Thweng (d. 1374) and the Constables of Flamborough, in which you
stated:

"however, since we have no solid chronology, I have not been able to
rule out Juliana as a daughter of Robert de Daiville and Juliana de
Montfort (and therefore sister of John, husband of Maud de Percy)?"

CE Wood

On Jan 14, 1:44 pm, "John P. Ravilious" <[email protected]> wrote:

Monday, 14 January, 2008

Dear Mike,

As I have it, unfortunately the descent shown in the
May 2004 thread you mentioned should not have appeared.
The descent given in October 2004 is correct as I have it,
and have seen no evidence to date to amend same.

Below is the pedigree as I presently have it, down to
the issue of Sir Robert le Constable (d. bef 1272). In
addition, should you review the several postings
concerning this family, I highly recommend you review
the entire thread <The Other Heir of Magister Roger de
Arundel> from May 2007.

I have copied this to a few individuals who are most
likely to have corrective comments on this matter, if an
error or difference of opinion is noted.

Cheers,

John *

_________________________________________

The Constables of Flamborough

1 William fitz Nigel
----------------------------------------
Death: bef 1130[1],[2]
Father: Nigel

of Halton, Cheshire

constable of Chester

'Willelm filius Nigelli', tenant at Halton at Domesday Book,
1086 [DP 486[2] ]

acquired Flamborough after 1086:
" Willielmus filius Nigelli dedit ecclesiam de Flemeburhe"
{' he gave to Bridlington priory the church of Flamborough
for the soul of Adeliz his wife. ' - EYC XII:143, cites
Bridlington Chartulary, p. 177[3]}. See also Mon. Angl.
VI(1):286, Num. III[4], confirmation by King Henry I]

' The demesne tenant of the larger estate [at Flamborough,
co. Yorks.] in 1086 was Hugh son of Norman. Sometime after
1086 it passed to William son of Niel, whose father had
been created constable by Earl Hugh [of Chester]. William,
who died between 1125 and 1130, was succeeded by his son,
another William, who had died by 1139. The latter seems
to have had an illegitimate son, Robert the Constable
(fl. 1146-8, 1185), who succeeded to his father's estate
in Flamborough. This Robert was the ancestor of the
Constable family of Flamborough, whose name almost
certainly derived from the family's descent from the
constables of Chester. ' [VCH Yorks., II:154[5]]

VCH refs:
"[65] E. Y. C. xii, pp. 142-6; it has been suggested that
the first Robert was the son of William son of Niel:
T.E.R.A.S. xii. 1-3. Earlier accts. of the origin of
the Constable family, of Flamborough, are inaccurate:
T.E.R.A.S. vii. 15-16; viii. 51-69; E.R.R.O.,
DDEV/11/2. "[5]

one of the hereditary Barons of the Earldom of Chester:
contemporary of Hugh 'Lupus', who d. 1101
[CP III:165 note (b)[6]]

cf. EYC XII:142-5[3]
_____________________

re: his wife:

' he gave to Bridlington priory the church of Flamborough
for the soul of Adeliz his wife. ' [EYC XII:143, cites
Bridlington Chartulary, p. 177[3]]

Spouse: Adeliz
Death: bef 1130[3]

Children: Agnes
Matilda
William (-<1139)

1.1 William fitz William
----------------------------------------
Death: bef 1139, d.s.p.l.[3],[2]

of Halton, Cheshire

Constable of Chester
succeeded his father before 1130:
' in that year rendered account in Leicestershire of 40
marks of silver for the fine which the king made for him
against the earl of Chester.' [EYC XII:143, cites Pipe
Roll 31 Hen. I, p. 88[3]]

cf. DP 486[2]

he d. without legitimate issue, his heirs being his
sisters Agnes and Maud: re: his illegitimate son Robert
le Constable, see EYC XII:142-5[3]

Spouse: NN

Children: Roger
Robert fitz William (->1184) [1.1.2 below]

1.1.1 Roger fitz William
----------------------------------------

evidently illegitimate

"Roger filio Willielmi constabularii" ['Roger son of
William the constable'], witnessed a charter of Robert
son of the earl [EYC XII:145-6[3]; text in Mon.Angl.
VI(2):956, Num. VI[4]]

possibly made a gift to his brother Robert of his lands
in Flamborough - the Visitation pedigree calls him
'Roger [de] Lacy' in error:
'Rogerus Lacy dedit villam de Flamburgh Roberto
fratri suo.'
'Robert Counstable Lord of Flamboroo, ex dono
Rogeri fratris sui.'
[Visitation of Yorkshire, p. 64[7]]

1.1.2 Robert fitz William le Constable
----------------------------------------
Death: aft 1184[3]

illegitimate son

acquired a moiety of Holme upon Spaldingmore by marriage
[EYC XII:144[3]]

' Robert son of the constable', witness to charters of
Gilbert de Gant, earl of Lincoln to Bridlington priory,
1147-1156 [EYC XII:144, cites EYC II, no. 1157, 1219[3]]

'Robert son of William the constable of Chester', witness
to charter of Earl Gilbert to Rufford Abbey (1146-8 or
later) [EYC XII:144, cites Mon. Ang. v, 518[3]]

fl. in 1185 [EYC XII:144, ref. to Pipe Roll 31 Hen. II,
p. 75[3]]

identified as

...

read more »