The Botelers: Hervey Walters Sons (3 new ones) Comparative A

[Gjest]

Good Morning Will Johnson et al,
You ASKED for it, I digress but it will help in explaining the
Botelers of Rawcliffe. Start with Hamon: In Latin
(Brit Mus.,Townley's MSS, E.E. no. 1101(addit MS 32106 f.237b) Series
XVII Charter #IV, 1181-1195 26 Henry-11Rich I
"Grant by Adam son of Richard son of Hamon to Augustine de Heaton son
of Waldeve a moiety in Heaton in Lonsdale...." Some have dated it 1189
by the names of the witnesses, regardless that is 3, yes, count them,
3 generations counting Hamon son of Hervey Walter by 1195 at the
latest. This Grant is later confirmed in the inquest of Lancaster
1212. Now if you use just the simple age of majority and livery of
lands..... you guys get the idea.
Now Warin de Bussel gave Hamon son of Hervey Walter land in Heaton in
Lonsdale and Echelstone in marriage with one of his daughters. Warin
was Baron of Penwortham if memory serves me right approx. 1145-1150.
Further:
(Bodl.Lib., Oxon., Dodworth MS lxxxviii,fol.7)Series XVII Charter #
III, 1160-1180)
"Grant by Roger son of Orm son of Magnus to Augustine de Heaton son of
Waldeve of a moiety in Heaton in Lonsbury in exchange for a third part
of Hutton in Leylandshire..." Now if you will remember Herve gave orm
son of magnus land for marrying his daughter Aliz. This is now the
next generation down from Orm.
If Hamon and his sons were all 15 when they married and had their heir
at 15, using 1195 by the first grant, puts the birth of Hamnon in
1150 , but he is much, much older than this as was Theobald and Hubert
and Roger etc.
Roger:
Farrer,op. cit.321, Lytham Charters at Durham, Grant No. 47
in 1164, Roger Grants"..with the consent of my heirs,witnesses,
Stephen my son, Martin my brother and others" Here is the earlist
charter I have found of Roger de WArton son of Hervey Walter in 1164,
but with Stephen his son, but naming a previously not much talked
about brother Martin!!!!!!!!!! Abyt 1190 Roger witnesses his last
charter to the priory of Lytham of his 2nd wife "Quinnelda of an
oxgang of land: (Lythan Charters at Durham, 1a,2ae,4ae, Ebor no. 46)
Roger became a monk after this ( as many old men of those times did
when they had older heirs waiting around for them to die and to atone
for all their misdeeds in life, so I have read) and died in 1199.
Again being slightly facetious, if Riger were 15 when he had livery of
his lands married and his heir was born the same year... Roger would
have been born in 1149, Roger is much older than this I believe. and
keep in mind Roger and Hamon are the younger brothers of Hubert and
Theobald!!!!!!!! There are lots of other charters for these people
but how many does one want? The intent is to create a point not write
a book online hahahaha
Sot here you have another brother, Martin, I have seen two other
charters listing a Walter and a Hervey as brothers but must continue
this later, as must fly to the office.
Hope you enjoy.
Best Regards,
Emmett L. Butler

[wjhonson]

RE: the Wife of one of the Flemings in this line, Dix Preston sent me
privatly an email in which he quotes from "The Early History of the
Stricklands of Sizergh" by S, H. Lee Washington; 1942; The Rumford
Press; Boston, MA

This work states that Michael le Fleming, the feofee of Aldington
tempe Henry I must have married a daughter of Robert de Stuteville by
his wife Erneburge and cite as one piece of evidence that Michael's
grandson Anselm named one of his daughters and co-heiresses with the
odd name Erneburgha.

If this holds up, then it would greatly restrict the chronology at
this point.

Will Johnson

[Patricia A. Junkin]

Dear Will,
I have been attempting to understand how a set of Viponts ended up in
Lancashire at Halsalle, Lydiate and Eggergarth-part of the Warrington
fee. Was there a marriage of Botoler, Halsalle, Viliers or Lydiate?
Now, you have mentioned the unusual name of Erneburgha and I have
found that one Nicholas Vipont left a widow, Ermegerna (1314-15).
Could one be variation of the other?
Thanks,
Pat
On Jan 10, 2008, at 6:16 PM, wjhonson wrote:

RE: the Wife of one of the Flemings in this line, Dix Preston sent me
privatly an email in which he quotes from "The Early History of the
Stricklands of Sizergh" by S, H. Lee Washington; 1942; The Rumford
Press; Boston, MA

This work states that Michael le Fleming, the feofee of Aldington
tempe Henry I must have married a daughter of Robert de Stuteville by
his wife Erneburge and cite as one piece of evidence that Michael's
grandson Anselm named one of his daughters and co-heiresses with the
odd name Erneburgha.

If this holds up, then it would greatly restrict the chronology at
this point.

Will Johnson

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[Gjest]

Good Evening Will Johnson and all,
This may or may not help, but such as it is in this realm. The line
that I gave you Will, by e-mail and in post of the descent of the
Flemings with supporting pipe rolls etc. is I believe relatively
correct, BUT..stops being correct, "I believe", now, with the William
de Furness that marries Alyna, daughter of Thomas Cospatrick. This is
wordy, hope you can follow, I need a secretary and more than the ones
I have at work.

Rememeber Erneburga, Lady of Skipwith, alledged daughter of Hugh
fitzBaldric, Hugh held lands at the time of the conquest, right after
the Domesday survey 1086, Sheriff of York 1069-78 +/-2 years, soon
after the Domesday he holds no lands. Keep this in mind regarding the
following. I further knnow of only 2 daughters, Isabel and
Emma.Ernaburga???

There were (3) Fleming Families at the time of 1066 +/- a few years in
the same general area and may or may not have been family connected.

1. Joceus Le Fleming that came with the conqueror
Weblock, manor of Cuckney, held pre-conquest by Sweyn the Saxon, after
the conquest,1066, by Hugh fitz Baldric, 1086 given to Richard le
Fleming, son of Joceus le Fleming, Whose son Thomas de Cuckney held it
of Richard c. 1145 and had an only daughter Isabel. end of that line,
Richard had another son but went by another name other than Le
Fleming.

2. Michael Flandernais/le Fleming, the line I have given and were of
Aldingham not Aldington but nearby, and the descent by documentation
is the correct one I believe, till and with, William Furness.

3. Rainier le Fleming, whose son Michael was born at Castle Caernavon
and were later of Aldington, who Did marry a Stuteville, had the same
Michaels and Williams as the Michael Flandernais line and is correct
until William Le Fleming/Furness..... this line also connects to Henry
fitzHervey of Ravenworth, and to Gilbert of the Lancaster
family(Barons Kendal) of which of course Warrington and the Rawcliffe
and Ireland Botelers are connected with, but ANSELM was one of this
Williams, sons...... as the William who was married to Alyna daughter
of Thomas Cospatric did not have a son Anslem.

The question is, by the pipe rolls, which William le Fleming/ Furness/
Furneys did Henry fitzHervey have wardship of, that married his
daughter, Agatha??? I also believe that as two of the families were
so close is the reason one started to go by Furness/Furneys for
distinction, but is of course, conjecture only. Yes, I know I have
created a can of worms like the fitzReinfried/de Lancaster affair of
two years ago, but this is the only way that history truly gets sorted
out, as some that are interested with the Boteler lines as previously
had always been conjectured, is now, if slowly, being shown as
something totally different.
Comments and thoughts greatly appreciated this is tough on the old
eyes and fingers.
Hope you all enjoy.
Best Regards,
Emmett L. Butler

[Gjest]

On Jan 11, 8:19�pm, [email protected] wrote:

Good Evening Will Johnson and all,
This may or may not help, but such as it is in this realm. The line
that I gave you Will, by e-mail and in post of the descent of the
Flemings with supporting pipe rolls etc. is I believe relatively
correct, BUT..stops being correct, "I believe", now, with the William
de Furness that marries Alyna, daughter of Thomas Cospatrick. This is
wordy, hope you can follow, I need a secretary and more than the ones
I have at work.

Rememeber �Erneburga, Lady of Skipwith, alledged daughter of Hugh
fitzBaldric, Hugh held lands at the time of the conquest, right after
the Domesday survey 1086, Sheriff of York 1069-78 +/-2 years, soon
after the Domesday he holds no lands. Keep this in mind regarding the
following. I further knnow of only 2 daughters, Isabel and
Emma.Ernaburga???

There were (3) Fleming Families at the time of 1066 +/- a few years in
the same general area and may or may not have been family connected.

1. Joceus Le Fleming that came with the conqueror
Weblock, manor of Cuckney, held pre-conquest by Sweyn the Saxon, after
the conquest,1066, by Hugh fitz Baldric, 1086 given to Richard le
Fleming, son of Joceus le Fleming, Whose son Thomas de Cuckney held it
of Richard c. 1145 and had an only daughter Isabel. end of that line,
Richard had another son but went by another name other than Le
Fleming.

2. Michael Flandernais/le Fleming, the line I have given and were of
Aldingham not Aldington but nearby, and the descent by documentation
is the correct one I believe, till and with, William Furness.

3. Rainier le Fleming, whose son Michael was born at Castle Caernavon
and were later of Aldington, who Did marry a Stuteville, had the same
Michaels and Williams as the Michael Flandernais line and is correct
until William Le Fleming/Furness..... this line also connects to Henry
fitzHervey of Ravenworth, and to Gilbert of the Lancaster
family(Barons Kendal) of which of course Warrington and the Rawcliffe
and Ireland Botelers are connected with, but ANSELM was one of this
Williams, sons...... as the William who was married to Alyna daughter
of Thomas Cospatric did not have a son Anslem.

The question is, by the pipe rolls, which William le Fleming/ Furness/
Furneys did Henry fitzHervey have wardship of, that married his
daughter, Agatha??? �I also believe that as two of the families were
so close is the reason one started to go by Furness/Furneys for
distinction, but is of course, conjecture only. Yes, I know I have
created a can of worms like the fitzReinfried/de Lancaster affair of
two years ago, but this is the only way that history truly gets sorted
out, as some that are interested with the Boteler lines as previously
had always been conjectured, is now, if slowly, being shown as
something totally different.
Comments and thoughts greatly appreciated this is tough on the old
eyes and fingers.
Hope you all enjoy.
Best Regards,
Emmett L. Butler

Good Evening All,
Most sorry, I was typing... that secretary I need...It was to have
been Michael in the wardship of Henry fitzHervey not William, been a
long day.
I hope that didn't confuse anyone.
Best Regards,
Emmett L. Butler

[[email protected]]

On Jan 11, 9:19 pm, [email protected] wrote:
[snip]

There were (3) Fleming Families at the time of 1066 +/- a few years in
the same general area and may or may not have been family connected.

1. Joceus Le Fleming that came with the conqueror
Weblock, manor of Cuckney, held pre-conquest by Sweyn the Saxon, after
the conquest,1066, by Hugh fitz Baldric, 1086 given to Richard le
Fleming, son of Joceus le Fleming, Whose son Thomas de Cuckney held it
of Richard c. 1145 and had an only daughter Isabel. end of that line,
Richard had another son but went by another name other than Le
Fleming.

This family has been discussed here before, notably by John P.
Ravilious. See:

John P. Ravilious, post to SGM dated 2005-10-3, Ancestry of the Lords
Fauconberg: Thomas fitz Richard de Cuckney.
Mon. Angl. VI (2): 872-874. VCH Notts., 2: 129-138. William Urmston
Searle Glanville-Richards, Records of the Anglo-Norman House of
Glanville from AD 1050-1880, London, (1882).

I believe the line ended in two heiresses, Isabel who married Simon
fitz Simon de Kyme and Emma who married Gerard de Glanville.

Doug Smith

[[email protected]]

On Jan 11, 9:19 pm, [email protected] wrote:
[snip]

Rememeber Erneburga, Lady of Skipwith, alledged daughter of Hugh
fitzBaldric, Hugh held lands at the time of the conquest, right after
the Domesday survey 1086, Sheriff of York 1069-78 +/-2 years, soon
after the Domesday he holds no lands. Keep this in mind regarding the
following. I further knnow of only 2 daughters, Isabel and
Emma.Ernaburga???

[snip]

I believe Hugh fitz Baldric had three daughters and heiresses. See
Domesday People pps 267-268 for a start.

Erneburgha filia Hugh m. Robert de Stuteville , Domesday Descendants,
pps 723-724, EYC viii, pps 2-5. TAG 46: 164-168.
Isabella filia Hugh m. Guy de Craon, DP p 464. DD, pps 267-268,
417. Sanders, English Baronies, p 47.
nn filia Hugh m. Walter de Rivere, DD p 666. DP pps 267-268.

Doug Smith

[Gjest]

On Jan 13, 7:48�am, "[email protected]" <[email protected]>
wrote:

On Jan 11, 9:19 pm, [email protected] wrote:
[snip]



Rememeber �Erneburga, Lady of Skipwith, alledged daughter of Hugh
fitzBaldric, Hugh held lands at the time of the conquest, right after
the Domesday survey 1086, Sheriff of York 1069-78 +/-2 years, soon
after the Domesday he holds no lands. Keep this in mind regarding the
following. I further knnow of only 2 daughters, Isabel and
Emma.Ernaburga???

[snip]

I believe Hugh fitz Baldric had three daughters and heiresses. �See
Domesday People pps 267-268 for a start.

Erneburgha filia Hugh m. Robert de Stuteville , Domesday Descendants,
pps 723-724, EYC viii, pps 2-5. TAG 46: 164-168.
Isabella �filia Hugh m. Guy de Craon, �DP p 464. �DD, pps 267-268,
417. Sanders, English Baronies, p 47.
nn filia Hugh m. Walter de Rivere, DD p 666. DP pps 267-268.

Doug Smith

[Gjest]

On Jan 13, 7:48�am, "[email protected]" <[email protected]>
wrote:

On Jan 11, 9:19 pm, [email protected] wrote:
[snip]



Rememeber �Erneburga, Lady of Skipwith, alledged daughter of Hugh
fitzBaldric, Hugh held lands at the time of the conquest, right after
the Domesday survey 1086, Sheriff of York 1069-78 +/-2 years, soon
after the Domesday he holds no lands. Keep this in mind regarding the
following. I further knnow of only 2 daughters, Isabel and
Emma.Ernaburga???

[snip]

I believe Hugh fitz Baldric had three daughters and heiresses. �See
Domesday People pps 267-268 for a start.

Erneburgha filia Hugh m. Robert de Stuteville , Domesday Descendants,
pps 723-724, EYC viii, pps 2-5. TAG 46: 164-168.
Isabella �filia Hugh m. Guy de Craon, �DP p 464. �DD, pps 267-268,
417. Sanders, English Baronies, p 47.
nn filia Hugh m. Walter de Rivere, DD p 666. DP pps 267-268.

Doug Smith

Good Morning Doug and
Alden,
Thank you for the marriage of Erneburgha and yes I knew the line of
Thomas Lord Cuckney ended with his two daughters but saw no need to
continue it as far as the e-mail regarding interests of Will Johnson.
but it is good to have. Rather than Private e-mail there may be some
who did not know of this and so posted it in general, I am sure these
sources are probably correct, altho I prefer source documentation,
i.e. charters, grants pipe rolls etc. I have seen way to may lines,
even those that are very good sources, continue with erroneous data,
altho sometimes it is as said"best evidence", and all that is
available, but it had to come from somewhere, but where?
Best Regards,
Emmett L. Butler

[[email protected]]

On Jan 13, 10:19 am, [email protected] wrote:

On Jan 13, 7:48�am, "[email protected]" <[email protected]
wrote:



On Jan 11, 9:19 pm, [email protected] wrote:
[snip]

Rememeber �Erneburga, Lady of Skipwith, alledged daughter of Hugh
fitzBaldric, Hugh held lands at the time of the conquest, right after
the Domesday survey 1086, Sheriff of York 1069-78 +/-2 years, soon
after the Domesday he holds no lands. Keep this in mind regarding the
following. I further knnow of only 2 daughters, Isabel and
Emma.Ernaburga???

[snip]

I believe Hugh fitz Baldric had three daughters and heiresses. �See
Domesday People pps 267-268 for a start.

Erneburgha filia Hugh m. Robert de Stuteville , Domesday Descendants,
pps 723-724, EYC viii, pps 2-5. TAG 46: 164-168.
Isabella �filia Hugh m. Guy de Craon, �DP p 464. �DD, pps 267-268,
417. Sanders, English Baronies, p 47.
nn filia Hugh m. Walter de Rivere, DD p 666. DP pps 267-268.

Doug Smith

Good Morning Doug and
Alden,
Thank you for the marriage of Erneburgha and yes I knew the line of
Thomas Lord Cuckney ended with his two daughters but saw no need to
continue it as far as the e-mail regarding interests of Will Johnson.
but it is good to have. Rather than Private e-mail there may be some
who did not know of this and so posted it in general, I am sure these
sources are probably correct, altho I prefer source documentation,
i.e. charters, grants pipe rolls etc. I have seen way to may lines,
even those that are very good sources, continue with erroneous data,
altho sometimes it is as said"best evidence", and all that is
available, but it had to come from somewhere, but where?
Best Regards,
Emmett L. Butler

Each of the sources I cited provides copious primary doc. to rolls.

Doug

[Gjest]

On Jan 13, 3:16 pm, "[email protected]" <[email protected]>
wrote:

On Jan 13, 10:19 am, [email protected] wrote:





On Jan 13, 7:48�am, "[email protected]" <[email protected]
wrote:

On Jan 11, 9:19 pm, [email protected] wrote:
[snip]

Rememeber �Erneburga, Lady of Skipwith, alledged daughter of Hugh
fitzBaldric, Hugh held lands at the time of the conquest, right after
the Domesday survey 1086, Sheriff of York 1069-78 +/-2 years, soon
after the Domesday he holds no lands. Keep this in mind regarding the
following. I further knnow of only 2 daughters, Isabel and
Emma.Ernaburga???

[snip]

I believe Hugh fitz Baldric had three daughters and heiresses. �See
Domesday People pps 267-268 for a start.

Erneburgha filia Hugh m. Robert de Stuteville , Domesday Descendants,
pps 723-724, EYC viii, pps 2-5. TAG 46: 164-168.
Isabella �filia Hugh m. Guy de Craon, �DP p 464. �DD, pps 267-268,
417. Sanders, English Baronies, p 47.
nn filia Hugh m. Walter de Rivere, DD p 666. DP pps 267-268.

Doug Smith

Good Morning Doug and
Alden,
Thank you for the marriage of Erneburgha and yes I knew the line of
Thomas Lord Cuckney ended with his two daughters but saw no need to
continue it as far as the e-mail regarding interests of Will Johnson.
but it is good to have. Rather than Private e-mail there may be some
who did not know of this and so posted it in general, I am sure these
sources are probably correct, altho I prefer source documentation,
i.e. charters, grants  pipe rolls etc. I have seen way to may lines,
even those that are very good sources, continue with erroneous data,
altho sometimes it is as said"best evidence", and all that is
available, but it had to come from somewhere, but where?
Best Regards,
Emmett L. Butler

Each of the sources I cited provides copious primary doc. to rolls.

Doug- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

Good Afternoon Doug,
And I thank you again, I have read neither of these two books but
shall do so some time agin in the future.
Best Regards,
Emmett L. Butler

[wjhonson]

On Jan 13, 5:38 am, "[email protected]" <[email protected]>
wrote:

This family has been discussed here before, notably by John P.
Ravilious.  See:

John P. Ravilious, post to SGM dated 2005-10-3, Ancestry of the Lords
Fauconberg: Thomas fitz Richard de Cuckney.
Mon. Angl. VI (2): 872-874.  VCH Notts., 2: 129-138.  William Urmston
Searle Glanville-Richards, Records of the Anglo-Norman House of
Glanville from AD 1050-1880, London, (1882).

I believe the line ended in two heiresses, Isabel who married Simon
fitz Simon de Kyme and Emma who married Gerard de Glanville.

Doug Smith

As for the specifics, I find the co-heiresses detailed here
http://books.google.com/books?id=QisAAA ... ville+emma

Will Johnson