Sir John Rochford (c.1355-1410), uncle of John de Sutton

[Douglas Richardson]

Dear Newsgroup ~

In the unfortunate article by Peter Montague-Smith on the Sutton
family in The Genealogist, TG 5 (1984): 131-157, reference is made in
passing to Sir John Rochford, the uncle of John de Sutton. Sir John
Rochford was a rather prominent man in his day, he being a writer of
some note, and a member of Parliament on several occasions. Sir John
Rochford and his wife, Alice, are noted for another accomplishment,
they being in the maternal ancestry of Queen Elizabeth I of England.

I've copied below my current account of Sir John Rochford, in which
his wife, Alice, is identified as the daughter of Sir Hugh de
Hastings, of Elsing, Brisley and Grimston, Norfolk, by his wife,
Margaret (or Margery) de Everingham. This identification of Alice's
parentage comes from Blomefield, Hist. of Norfolk 4 (1775): 712 and
Parkin, An Essay Towards a Topog. Hist. of the County of Norfolk 9
(1808): 107-108. The latter item may be viewed at the following
weblink:

http://books.google.com/books?id=RkwuAA ... ochford&lr
While Blomefield and Parkin are usually quite reliable, as with all
secondary sources and online databases, they must be fact checked
where possible. In this case, in recent time I've located the
hitherto overlooked will of Lady Elizabeth Elmham, a known daughter of
Sir Hugh de Hastings, which will is dated 1 Dec. 1419, proved 18 Feb.
1419/20 [Reference: 56-57 Hyrning, Consistory Court of Norwich, found
on FHL Microfilm 94857]. The will of Lady Elmham is rather
detailed. She names a variety of nieces and nephews in her will,
including Lady Margaret Kerdeston, wife of Sir Leonard Kerdeston,
which Margaret is in the ancestry of King Charles II of England.
Unfortunately, however, none of the daughters of Sir John Rochford and
his wife, Alice, are named in this will, which gives me considerable
reason for pause in accepting Blomefield and Parkin's identification
of Lady Alice Rochford's parentage.

Furthermore, in the pedigree of the Tilney family found in the 1563
Visitation of Norfolk, there is a notation of arms as follows:
"Rochford and his wife:--Quarterly or and gules, a bordure sable
bezantee [ROCHFORD]; impaling, Quarterly or and azure, on a bend gules
three escallops argent [FASTOLF]." [Reference: Harvey et al. Vis. of
Norfolk 1563 & 1613 (H.S.P. 32) (1891): 287-288]. These arms appear
to be intended for Sir John Rochford and his wife, Alice, which couple
are the closest Rochford couple in the ancestry of the Tilney family
in question. If so, it is entirely possible that Alice, wife of Sir
John Rochford, was a member of the Fastolf family of Norfolk, and that
she was not a Hastings at all. This matter deserves further study.

One further note: Roskell's modern biography of Sir John Rochford in
House of Commons 1386-1421, volume 4 maintains that Sir John's mother
was NOT Joan Hillary, daughter of Sir Roger Hillary, Chief Justice of
the Common Pleas. My research, however, has conclusively proven this
Sir John Rochford was in fact co-heir in 1400 to his uncle, Roger
Hillary, Knt., by which he inherited the manors of Shelfield (in
Walsall), Staffordshire and Stretton-on-Fosse, Warwickshire. These
properties subsequently passed onto his heirs. This gaffe on
Roskell's part is yet another reason why it is important to fact check
all secondary works and online databases, including the two books
published by yours truly.

For interest's sake, those wishing to read about Lady Elizabeth Elmham
(née Hastings) and her interesting will may do so at the following
weblink:

http://www.walsham-le-willows.org/histo ... yreview/25

Best always, Douglas Richardson, Salt Lake City, Utah

+ + + + + + + + + + + + +
Sir John Rochford, of Boston, Lincolnshire, and his wife, Alice
Hastings

I. JOHN ROCHFORD, Knt., of Boston, Lincolnshire, medieval writer,
Knight of the Shire for Lincolnshire, 1390, 1394, 1397, 1399, Knight
of the Shire for Cambridgeshire, 1407, Alderman of the Corpus Christi
Guild, Boston, Lincolnshire, 1381-1386, 1391-1394, 1397-1399, 1409,
Steward of the Duchy of Lancaster honour of Bolingbroke, Lincolnshire,
1399-1407, Steward of the Lincolnshire estates of Thomas Holand, Earl
of Kent, forfeited for treason, 1400-1410, Constable of the Bishop of
Ely's castle of Wisbech, Cambridgeshire, 1401-1410, younger son of
Saier de Rochford, Knt., of Fenn (in Boston), Lincolnshire, Sheriff
and Escheator of Lincolnshire, Knight of the Shire for Lincolnshire,
Keeper of the King of France at Somerton Castle, Lincolnshire, by his
2nd wife, Joan, daughter of Roger Hillary, Knt., Chief Justice of the
Commons Pleas. He married before 1381-2 (date of fine) ALICE
HASTINGS, daughter of Hugh de Hastings, Knt., of Elsing, Brisley and
Grimston, Norfolk, by Margaret (or Margery), daughter of Adam de
Everingham, Knt., 2nd Lord Everingham. They had one son, William
(died young), and four daughters, Joan (wife of Robert Roos), Alice
(wife of William Gibthorpe, Knt.), _____ (wife of John Holbeach, Knt.)
and Margaret (wife of Frederick Tilney). He was born say 1355. He
received a good education in England, and afterwards studied in France
and Italy. He and his wife, Alice, were members of the Guild of
Corpus Christi, in Boston, Lincolnshire. In 1379 he was appointed to
his first royal commission, which involved an inquiry into a disorder
at Boston, Lincolnshire. Sometime before 1396, he served as a trustee
for his nephew, John de Sutton. In 1398 and 1399 he obtained papal
indults for the use of a portable altar and for plenary remission of
sins at the hour of death. He was co-heir in 1400 to his uncle, Roger
Hillary, Knt., by which he inherited the manors of Shelfield (in
Walsall), Staffordshire and Stretton-on-Fosse, Warwickshire. In 1401
he was bound over in sums of £100 to do no harm to Robert Kerville,
whom he appears to have threatened or assaulted. In 1403 he and his
brother, Ralph Rochford, Knt., were granted keepership of the estates
of Sir James Roos' younger son, Robert Roos, then a royal ward. In
1405 he was summoned to meet King Henry IV at Coventry, Warwickshire,
and accompany him on his expedition to Wales. Towards the end of his
life, he compiled digests of and indexes to various well known
chronicles. His best known work is Notabilia extracta de viginiti uno
libris Flavii Josephi which he completed in 1406. His wife, Alice,
died in 1409. SIR JOHN ROCHFORD died 13 Dec. 1410. He left a will
dated 20 October 1410, proved 14 Dec. 1410, requesting burial at
Barlings Abbey, Lincolnshire, next to his late wife, Alice.

References:

Blomefield, Hist. of Norfolk 4 (1775): 712 (wife identified as Alice,
daughter of Sir Hugh de Hastings). Parkin, An Essay Towards a Topog.
Hist. of the County of Norfolk 9 (1808): 107-108 (wife Alice
identified as "daughter of Sir Hugh Hastings"), 115. Erdeswick,
Survey of Staffordshire (1820): 338-339. Watson, An Hist. Account of
the Ancient Town and Port of Wisbech (1827): 130, 484, 623. Chambers,
A General Hist. of the County of Norfolk 2 (1829): 493-494. Walker &
Craddock, The Hist. of Wisbech, and the Fens (1849): 273. Thompson,
Hist. & Antiq. of Boston (1856): 320 ("Sir John Rochford was famous
for his high birth, long travels through France and Italy, and his
translation of 'Josephus, His Antiquities,' 'Polychronicon,' &c. He
was one of the knights of the shire 14 Richard II., and sheriff of
Lincolnshire, 1392, 1401, and 1409. His name also occurs as
commissioners of sewers 1377, 1393, 1410, and 1421."). Grazebrook,
Barons of Dudley 1 (Colls. Hist. Staffs. 9(2)) (1888): 61-62. D.N.B.
17 (1897): 74 (biog. John de Rochford). Grazebrook, Shenstone
Charters (Colls. Hist. Staffs. 17) (1896): 78 (De Banco suit dated
Trinity, 9 Henry V, lists plaintiffs as Margaret widow of Fratrice
[sic] Tylney, Margaret Roos, and Elizabeth Gybthorp, these evidently
being Sir John Rochford's surviving heirs). Rye, Cal. of Feet of
Fines for Suffolk (1900): 255. Larken & Maddison, Lincolnshire Peds.
3 (H.S.P. 52) (1904): 829 (Rochford pedigree). List of Inqs. ad Quod
Damnum 2 (PRO Lists and Indexes 22) (1906): 662. Watkin, Inventory of
Church Goods temp. Edward III (Norfolk Rec. Soc. 19(2)) (1948): 211
(biog. of John Rochford) (Rochford arms: Quarterly or and gules, a
bordure sable bezanty). VCH Warwick 5 (1949): 154. Repingdon, Reg.
of Philip Repingdon 2 (Lincoln Rec. Soc. 58) (1963): 211-213 (will of
Sir John de Rochford). VCH Stafford 17 (1976): 171; 14 (1990): 241.
Ellis, Cat. of Seals in the P.R.O. 1 (1978): 55 (seal of John de
Rochefort, knight dated 1390--In a richly cusped circle, a shield of
arms: quarterly (hatched and plain), a bordure charged with eight
roundels. No legend, but in its place a band of running scrolled
ornament.). Roskell et al., House of Commons 1386-1421 4 (1992): 219-
221 (biog. of John Rochford) (incorrectly states that John Rochford
was not the son of Joan Hillary). Sainty, Judges of England (Selden
Soc. Supp. Ser. 10) (1993): 63 (re. Sir Roger Hillary). VCH Stafford
17 (1976): 279.

[[email protected]]

Hi Douglas,
snip

In this case, in recent time I've located the

hitherto overlooked will of Lady Elizabeth Elmham, a known daughter of
Sir Hugh de Hastings, which will is dated 1 Dec. 1419, proved 18 Feb.
1419/20 [Reference: 56-57 Hyrning, Consistory Court of Norwich, found
on FHL Microfilm 94857]. The will of Lady Elmham is rather
detailed. She names a variety of nieces and nephews in her will,
including Lady Margaret Kerdeston, wife of Sir Leonard Kerdeston,
which Margaret is in the ancestry of King Charles II of England.
Unfortunately, however, none of the daughters of Sir John Rochford and
his wife, Alice, are named in this will, which gives me considerable
reason for pause in accepting Blomefield and Parkin's identification
of Lady Alice Rochford's parentage.

snip

"Elizabeth's third niece, simply 'Margaret Rocheford' presumably
unmarried and not of age, is given a jewelled clasp called an 'ouche'
with three large pearls, three rubies and a sapphire".

From the web page you cited re: Lady Elmham's will. She did
apparently have a niece named Margaret Rochford who is not identified
further.

Doug Smith

[Douglas Richardson]

On Dec 30, 4:59 pm, "[email protected]" <[email protected]>
wrote:

Hi Douglas,
snip

In this case, in recent time I've located the

hitherto overlooked will of Lady Elizabeth Elmham, a known daughter of
Sir Hugh de Hastings, which will is dated 1 Dec. 1419, proved 18 Feb.
1419/20 [Reference: 56-57 Hyrning, Consistory Court of Norwich, found
on FHL Microfilm 94857]. The will of Lady Elmham is rather
detailed. She names a variety of nieces and nephews in her will,
including Lady Margaret Kerdeston, wife of Sir Leonard Kerdeston,
which Margaret is in the ancestry of King Charles II of England.
Unfortunately, however, none of the daughters of Sir John Rochford and
his wife, Alice, are named in this will, which gives me considerable
reason for pause in accepting Blomefield and Parkin's identification
of Lady Alice Rochford's parentage.

snip

"Elizabeth's third niece, simply 'Margaret Rocheford' presumably
unmarried and not of age, is given a jewelled clasp called an 'ouche'
with three large pearls, three rubies and a sapphire".

From the web page you cited re: Lady Elmham's will. She did
apparently have a niece named Margaret Rochford who is not identified
further.

Doug Smith

Doug ~

Thank you for your good post.

I thought this too when I first saw Lady Elmham's will. In the actual
will, however, I believe that Lady Elmham's niece is called Dame
Margaret Rochford, which means she was the wife of a knight. I
believe this niece was Margaret Russell, the daughter of Lady Elmham's
sister, Margaret (Hastings) (Wingfield) Russell. Margaret Russell's
husband was Sir Ralph Rochford (died c. 1448), of Stoke Rochford and
Fenn (in Boston), Lincolnshire, Arley, Warwickshire, etc.

Sir Ralph Rochford, by the way, was closely related to Sir John
Rochford, by the way.

Best always, Douglas Richardson, Salt Lake City, Utah

[Douglas Richardson]

Dear Newsgroup ~

As a followup to my earlier post, I probably should correct another
mistake made by J.S. Roskell in his otherwise worthy biography of Sir
John Rochford, died 1410 [see House of Commons 1386-1421 4 (1992): 219-
221]. Roskell states that Sir John Rochford had one son and two
daughters (pg. 219), none of which he names. Roskell likewise states
on pg. 221 that Sir John Riochford was succeeded at his death "either
by his brother, Sir Ralph, or by a son or grandson of the same name."

The truth is that Sir John Rochford and his wife, Alice, had five
children in all. My research indicates that he and Alice had an only
son, William Rochford, who died young, which child was buried at
Walpole, Norfolk, sometime during the period, 1401-1410. For
particulars of William Rochford's burial, see the following four
sources with accompanying weblinks:

1. Parkin, An Essay Towards a Topog. Hist. of the County of Norfolk 9
(1808): 115.

Weblink: http://books.google.com/books?id=RkwuAA ... #PPA115,M1

2. Watson, An Hist. Account of the Ancient Town and Port of Wisbech
(1827): 130, 484, 623.

Weblink: http://books.google.com/books?id=t7gLAA ... le+Wisbech

3. Norfolk Archaeology:

Weblink: http://books.google.com/books?id=5yYSAA ... ech&pgis=1

4. Chambers, A General Hist. of the County of Norfolk 2 (1829): 493-
494.

http://books.google.com/books?id=ZS02AA ... #PPA494,M1

Besides the one son, William, Sir John Rochford and his wife, Alice,
also had four daughters, Joan (wife of Robert Roos), Alice (wife of
William Gibthorpe, Knt.), _____ (wife of John Holbeach, Knt.) and
Margaret (wife of Frederick Tilney). For particulars on these
daughters and their descendants, see the following sources and
weblinks:

1. Erdeswick, Survey of Staffordshire (1820): 338-339.

http://books.google.com/books?id=DEgJAA ... #PPA338,M1
http://books.google.com/books?id=DEgJAA ... #PPA339,M1

2. VCH Warwick 5 (1949): 154.

http://www.british-history.ac.uk/report ... ochford%22

3. Online A2A Catalogue

Weblink:
http://www.a2a.org.uk/search/documentxs ... esheet=xsl\A2A_doc.xsl&i=0&com=1&nbKey=1&keyword=John+de+Rochefort&properties=0601

Nottinghamshire Archives: Portland of Welbeck (4th Deposit): Estate
Papers, Reference: DD/4P/4/15, indenture dated 29 Sept. 1394 from
James de Roos, Knt., et al. to John de Rochefort of St. Botho the
manor of Thetford and premises as above for 8 yrs., 40 marks p.a.; if
Frederic, son of Philip de Tilney, knt., and wife Margaret, daughter
of John de Rochefort, are maintained by John de Rochefort, rent to be
reduced by £10 per annum.

Note: St. Botho = Boston, Lincolnshire

4. VCH Stafford 14 (1990): 241.

Weblink: http://www.british-history.ac.uk/report ... Fisherwick

5. Wrottesley, Staffordshire Suits: Plea Rolls (Colls. Hist. Staffs.
17) (1896): 132-134 (abstract of lawsuit dated 9 Henry VI).

6. Grazebrook, Shenstone Charters (Colls. Hist. Staffs. 17) (1896): 78
(De Banco suit dated Trinity, 9 Henry V, lists plaintiffs as Margaret
widow of Fratrice [sic] Tylney, Margaret Roos, and Elizabeth Gybthorp,
these evidently being Sir John Rochford's surviving heirs).

In his notes, Roskell implies that there was a second John Rochford
who was a contemporary to Sir John Rochford, the medieval writer.
This might well be possible. However, in the lawsuit dated 9 Henry VI
cited above, it is specifically stated that the John Rochford who was
the heir of Roger Hillary in 1400 was a knight. Likewise, I've cited
above a record dated 1394 in which Margaret, wife of Frederick Tilney,
is specifically called the daughter of "John de Rochefort of St.
Botho." St. Botho is another name for Boston, Lincolnshire. So
unless there were two John Rochfords, both of whom were knighted, both
of whom resided at Boston, Lincolnshire, I believe I have correctly
assigned the right five children to the right Sir John Rochford, of
Boston, Lincolnshire, and his wife, Alice.

Best always, Douglas Richardson, Salt Lake City, Utah

[[email protected]]

On Dec 30, 8:57 pm, Douglas Richardson <[email protected]> wrote:

Dear Newsgroup ~

As a followup to my earlier post, I probably should correct another
mistake made by J.S. Roskell in his otherwise worthy biography of Sir
John Rochford, died 1410 [see House of Commons 1386-1421 4 (1992): 219-
221].  Roskell states that Sir John Rochford had one son and two
daughters (pg. 219), none of which he names.  Roskell likewise states
on pg. 221 that Sir John Riochford was succeeded at his death "either
by his brother, Sir Ralph, or by a son or grandson of the same name."

The truth is that Sir John Rochford and his wife, Alice, had five
children in all.  My research indicates that he and Alice had an only
son, William Rochford, who died young, which child was buried at
Walpole, Norfolk, sometime during the period, 1401-1410.  For
particulars of William Rochford's burial, see the following four
sources with accompanying weblinks:

1. Parkin, An Essay Towards a Topog. Hist. of the County of Norfolk 9
(1808): 115.

  Weblink:http://books.google.com/books?id=RkwuAAAAMAAJ&pg=PA109&dq=Parkin+Walp...

2. Watson, An Hist. Account of the Ancient Town and Port of Wisbech
(1827): 130, 484, 623.

  Weblink:  http://books.google.com/books?id=t7gLAAAAYAAJ&pg=PA623&dq=Rochford+Co...

3. Norfolk Archaeology:

  Weblink:http://books.google.com/books?id=5yYSAAAAIAAJ&q=Rochford+Constable+Wi...

4. Chambers, A General Hist. of the County of Norfolk 2 (1829): 493-
494.

 http://books.google.com/books?id=ZS02AAAAMAAJ&pg=PA494&dq=%22John+Roc...

Besides the one son, William, Sir John Rochford and his wife, Alice,
also had four daughters, Joan (wife of Robert Roos), Alice (wife of
William Gibthorpe, Knt.), _____ (wife of John Holbeach, Knt.) and
Margaret (wife of Frederick Tilney).  For particulars on these
daughters and their descendants, see the following sources and
weblinks:

1. Erdeswick, Survey of Staffordshire (1820): 338-339.

 http://books.google.com/books?id=DEgJAAAAIAAJ&pg=PR1&dq=Erdeswick+Sur...
 http://books.google.com/books?id=DEgJAAAAIAAJ&pg=PR1&dq=Erdeswick+Sur...

2. VCH Warwick 5 (1949): 154.

 http://www.british-history.ac.uk/report.aspx?compid=57065&strquery=%2...

3. Online A2A Catalogue

Weblink:http://www.a2a.org.uk/search/documentxsl.asp?stylesheet=xsl\A2A_doc.xsl&i=0&com=1&nbKey=1&keyword=John+de+Rochefort&properties=0601

Nottinghamshire Archives: Portland of Welbeck (4th Deposit): Estate
Papers, Reference: DD/4P/4/15, indenture dated 29 Sept. 1394 from
James de Roos, Knt., et al. to John de Rochefort of St. Botho  the
manor of Thetford and premises as above for 8 yrs., 40 marks p.a.; if
Frederic, son of Philip de Tilney, knt., and wife Margaret, daughter
of John de Rochefort, are maintained by John de Rochefort, rent to be
reduced by £10 per annum.

Note: St. Botho = Boston, Lincolnshire

4. VCH Stafford 14 (1990): 241.

  Weblink:http://www.british-history.ac.uk/report.aspx?compid=42360&strquery=Fi...

5. Wrottesley, Staffordshire Suits: Plea Rolls (Colls. Hist. Staffs.
17) (1896): 132-134 (abstract of lawsuit dated 9 Henry VI).

6. Grazebrook, Shenstone Charters (Colls. Hist. Staffs. 17) (1896): 78
(De Banco suit dated Trinity, 9 Henry V, lists plaintiffs as Margaret
widow of Fratrice [sic] Tylney, Margaret Roos, and Elizabeth Gybthorp,
these evidently being Sir John Rochford's surviving heirs).

In his notes, Roskell implies that there was a second John Rochford
who was a contemporary to Sir John Rochford, the medieval writer.
This might well be possible.  However, in the lawsuit dated 9 Henry VI
cited above, it is specifically stated that the John Rochford who was
the heir of Roger Hillary in 1400 was a knight.  Likewise, I've cited
above a record dated 1394 in which Margaret, wife of Frederick Tilney,
is specifically called the daughter of "John de Rochefort of St.
Botho."   St. Botho is another name for Boston, Lincolnshire.  So
unless there were two John Rochfords, both of whom were knighted, both
of whom resided at Boston, Lincolnshire, I believe I have correctly
assigned the right five children to the right Sir John Rochford, of
Boston, Lincolnshire, and his wife, Alice.

Best always, Douglas Richardson, Salt Lake City, Utah

Larken & Maddison, Lincolnshire Peds. 3 (H.S.P. 52) (1904): 829
(Rochford pedigree).

Hi Douglas

I think that Larken and Maddison show one more daughter: Ida married
to a Richard Clement.

This may or may not be correct. If she was daughter she may have died
young.


Doug Smith

[Douglas Richardson]

< Hi Douglas
<
< I think that Larken and Maddison show one more daughter: Ida
married
< to a Richard Clement.
<
< This may or may not be correct. If she was daughter she may have
died
< young.
<
< Doug Smith

As far as I know, Sir John Rochford (died 1410) and his wife, Alice,
did not have a daughter named Ida who married Richard Clement.
Regardless, one must use extreme caution when using a pedigree from
the Lincolnshire pedigrees series by Larken and Maddison. Many of the
pedigrees are quite good, outstanding even. The Rochford pedigree,
however, is one of the clunkers.

Best always, Douglas Richardson, Salt Lake City, Utah