Fw: Amauberge la Dangereuse

[Leo van de Pas]

A long time ago I extracted from Georges Martin "Histoire et Genealogie de
la Maison de La Rochefoucauld", published in 1975, that Maubergon/Dangerose
was a daughter of Barthelemy de L'Isel-Bouchard and Gerberge.
Maubergon?Dangerose married Aymeric I, vicomte de Chatellerault and became
mistress of Guillaume VII-IX duc d'Aquitaine.

ES Volume XIV Tafels 83 and 84 deals with this family. Here Dangerose is
shown as daughter of Barthelemy but without a mother.
Barthelemy is shown as a son of Archambaud dit Borel and Agnes sister of
Bouchard III Sire de L'Isle Bouchard.

I presume that the Boson II mentioned was also a Vicomte de Chatellerault, a
Boson II 1036-1092 was the father of Aymeric who married Maubergon. I cannot
find a genealogical link between Maubergon's father and Boson II.

Hope this helps a little?
With best wishes
Leo van de Pas,
Canberra, Australia


----- Original Message -----
From: "Margaret" <[email protected]>
Newsgroups: soc.genealogy.medieval
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Wednesday, December 19, 2007 10:57 PM
Subject: Amauberge la Dangereuse


I wonder if anyone would have any comment on a proposition made in a
French website on the Châtellerault family

http://poitou.ifrance.com/chatel.htm

(original in French below) that I translate as follows:
"A. Richard noted that the viscountess [Amauberge, wife of Aimery I de
Châtellerault], could be the daughter of Barthélémy, seigneur de l'Ile-
Bouchard. She was also known as "la Dangereuse" and lived at the same
time. A. Hérault accepted this theory and noted that Barthélémy was
related to [? ally of] viscount Boson II. For our part we tried to
find a Montfort connection, because Raoul, youngest son of Aimery I
and Dangereuse was known as Raoul de Faye but was originally called
Raoul de Montfort (101). We followed up A. Hérault's discovery of an
"Aimeri de Châtellerault" among the witnesses [?subscribers] to a
donation made by Alain Fergent, duke of Britanny, to the abbey of
Saint-Georges de Rennes when his sister Adèle was made abbess of this
establishment in 1084 or 1086 (102). In fact the first witness to the
deed is none other than "le comte Raoul", that is Raoul de Gaël or de
Montfort, who dom Lobineau puts at the head of the list of the
renowned Breton lords of the time. According to him, Raoul de Montfort
participated in the conquest of England and William the Bastard gave
him several lordships across the Channel. He married the daughter of
Roger de Breteuil, earl of Hereford (103).

"It is possible that the "Hailericus de Castro Airaut" who also
witnessed the aforementioned deed, is the future viscount Aimery I and
was visiting his father-in-law, or future father-in-law, Raoul de
Montfort. If so Raoul, his youngest son would have been named for his
maternal grandfather. This .... marriage could have been arranged by
Aimery's grandfather, Aimery IV, viscount de Thouars, renowned for his
part in the conquest of England and who only died in 1093 (104)."

(101) Cartulaire de l'abbaye de Noyers, n° CDLXVI, dans Mémoires de la
Soc. Archéol. de Touraine, t. XXII, 1872, p. 498-499
(102) A. Hérault, op. cit., t. 1er, p 55 note 1, d'après Dom Morice,
Preuves à l'histoire de Bretagne, t. 1er, 1713, colonne 453.
(103) Dom Lobineau, Histoire de Bretagne, t. 1er, 1707, p. 98-106.
(104) E.-R. Labande, "Situation de l'Aquitaine en 1066", dans BSAO 4e
série, t. VIII, 1966, p. 354-355.

"A. Richard a signalé dans une note que la vicomtesse pouvait être
identifiée avec une Dangereuse, fille de Barthélémy, seigneur de l'Ile-
Bouchard, qui vivait à la même époque (99). A. Hérault a été séduit
par cette hypothèse en remarquant que Barthélémy avait été l'allié du
vicomte Boson II (100). De notre côté, nous avons cherché à identifier
une famille de Montfort, parce que Raoul, fils cadet d'Aimeri I et
Dangereuse, bien connu sous le nom de Raoul de Faye, a d'abord été
appelé Raoul de Montfort (101). Nous avons été guidé par A. Hérault
qui a trouvé un " Aimeri de Châtellerault " parmi les souscripteurs
d'une donation du duc de Bretagne Alain Fergent à l'abbaye de Saint-
Georges de Rennes, à l'occasion de l'installation de sa soeur Adèle
comme abbesse de cet établissement, en 1084 ou 1086 (102). En effet,
le premier souscripteur de cet acte n'est autre que " le comte Raoul
", c'est-à-dire Raoul de Gaël ou de Montfort, que dom Lobineau désigne
en tête des seigneurs bretons illustres de son temps. Selon cet
auteur, Raoul de Montfort a participé à la conquête de l'Angleterre et
a reçu de Guillaume le Bâtard plusieurs seigneuries outre Manche. Il a
épousé la fille de Roger de Breteuil, comte de Hereford (103).

"Il est probable que le Haimericus de Castro Airaut qui souscrit en sa
compagnie l'acte précité, est le futur vicomte Aimeri I qui séjourne
chez son beau-père ou futur beau-père, Raoul de Montfort. Ainsi Raoul,
son fils cadet, aurait reçu le nom et le surnom de son grand-père
maternel. Cette alliance lointaine a pu être préparée par le grand-
père d'Aimeri, le vicomte de Thouars Aimeri IV, qui s'est illustré
lors de la conquête de l'Angleterre et qui n'est décédé qu'en 1093
(104)."

Yours
Margaret

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[Margaret]

Hello Leo
Yes Boson II (m. Adenordis or Alienor de Thouars) was Aimery I de
Châtelleraut's father. The Isle Bouchard connection seems to be the
accepted one. Do you know what it's based on?

The author of the article I cited uses circumstantial evidence
stemming from the name of Aimery and Amauberge's youngest son, Raoul
de Faye, who was originally known as Raoul de Montfort. This possible
de Montfort relationship surely has to be explained.

As Aimery I and Amauberge were the grandparents of Eleanor d'Aquitaine
through their daughter Aenor de Châtelleraut who married Guillaume X
d'Aquitaine, son of Guillaume IX d'Aquitaine, Amauberge's concubin (as
they call it in France) I find the de Montfort connection intriguing.

I notice that sgm has a lot on Anglo-Normans/Bretons, but from what I
can see, there's Anglo-Aquitaine and Anjou connections surrounding
Eleanor and Henry II and John Lackland and Isabelle d'Angoulême. They
seem to pop up from nowhere in England and disappear to nowhere in
France. I'm thinking, for example, of the Martels.

I don't know the Borel name - I'll do some digging so I can place
them.
yours
Margaret

On Dec 19, 10:55 pm, "Leo van de Pas" <[email protected]>
wrote:

A long time ago I extracted from Georges Martin "Histoire et Genealogie de
la Maison de La Rochefoucauld", published in 1975, that Maubergon/Dangerose
was a daughter of Barthelemy de L'Isel-Bouchard and Gerberge.
Maubergon?Dangerose married Aymeric I, vicomte de Chatellerault and became
mistress of Guillaume VII-IX duc d'Aquitaine.

ES Volume XIV Tafels 83 and 84 deals with this family. Here Dangerose is
shown as daughter of Barthelemy but without a mother.
Barthelemy is shown as a son of Archambaud dit Borel and Agnes sister of
Bouchard III Sire de L'Isle Bouchard.

I presume that the Boson II mentioned was also a Vicomte de Chatellerault, a
Boson II 1036-1092 was the father of Aymeric who married Maubergon. I cannot
find a genealogical link between Maubergon's father and Boson II.

Hope this helps a little?
With best wishes
Leo van de Pas,
Canberra, Australia

----- Original Message -----
From: "Margaret" <[email protected]

Newsgroups: soc.genealogy.medieval
To: <[email protected]
Sent: Wednesday, December 19, 2007 10:57 PM
Subject: Amauberge la Dangereuse

I wonder if anyone would have any comment on a proposition made in a
French website on the Châtellerault family

http://poitou.ifrance.com/chatel.htm

(original in French below) that I translate as follows:
"A. Richard noted that the viscountess [Amauberge, wife of Aimery I de
Châtellerault], could be the daughter of Barthélémy, seigneur de l'Ile-
Bouchard. She was also known as "la Dangereuse" and lived at the same
time. A. Hérault accepted this theory and noted that Barthélémy was
related to [? ally of] viscount Boson II. For our part we tried to
find a Montfort connection, because Raoul, youngest son of Aimery I
and Dangereuse was known as Raoul de Faye but was originally called
Raoul de Montfort (101). We followed up A. Hérault's discovery of an
"Aimeri de Châtellerault" among the witnesses [?subscribers] to a
donation made by Alain Fergent, duke of Britanny, to the abbey of
Saint-Georges de Rennes when his sister Adèle was made abbess of this
establishment in 1084 or 1086 (102). In fact the first witness to the
deed is none other than "le comte Raoul", that is Raoul de Gaël or de
Montfort, who dom Lobineau puts at the head of the list of the
renowned Breton lords of the time. According to him, Raoul de Montfort
participated in the conquest of England and William the Bastard gave
him several lordships across the Channel. He married the daughter of
Roger de Breteuil, earl of Hereford (103).

"It is possible that the "Hailericus de Castro Airaut" who also
witnessed the aforementioned deed, is the future viscount Aimery I and
was visiting his father-in-law, or future father-in-law, Raoul de
Montfort. If so Raoul, his youngest son would have been named for his
maternal grandfather. This .... marriage could have been arranged by
Aimery's grandfather, Aimery IV, viscount de Thouars, renowned for his
part in the conquest of England and who only died in 1093 (104)."

(101) Cartulaire de l'abbaye de Noyers, n° CDLXVI, dans Mémoires de la
Soc. Archéol. de Touraine, t. XXII, 1872, p. 498-499
(102) A. Hérault, op. cit., t. 1er, p 55 note 1, d'après Dom Morice,
Preuves à l'histoire de Bretagne, t. 1er, 1713, colonne 453.
(103) Dom Lobineau, Histoire de Bretagne, t. 1er, 1707, p. 98-106.
(104) E.-R. Labande, "Situation de l'Aquitaine en 1066", dans BSAO 4e
série, t. VIII, 1966, p. 354-355.

"A. Richard a signalé dans une note que la vicomtesse pouvait être
identifiée avec une Dangereuse, fille de Barthélémy, seigneur de l'Ile-
Bouchard, qui vivait à la même époque (99). A. Hérault a été séduit
par cette hypothèse en remarquant que Barthélémy avait été l'allié du
vicomte Boson II (100). De notre côté, nous avons cherché à identifier
une famille de Montfort, parce que Raoul, fils cadet d'Aimeri I et
Dangereuse, bien connu sous le nom de Raoul de Faye, a d'abord été
appelé Raoul de Montfort (101). Nous avons été guidé par A. Hérault
qui a trouvé un " Aimeri de Châtellerault " parmi les souscripteurs
d'une donation du duc de Bretagne Alain Fergent à l'abbaye de Saint-
Georges de Rennes, à l'occasion de l'installation de sa soeur Adèle
comme abbesse de cet établissement, en 1084 ou 1086 (102). En effet,
le premier souscripteur de cet acte n'est autre que " le comte Raoul
", c'est-à-dire Raoul de Gaël ou de Montfort, que dom Lobineau désigne
en tête des seigneurs bretons illustres de son temps. Selon cet
auteur, Raoul de Montfort a participé à la conquête de l'Angleterre et
a reçu de Guillaume le Bâtard plusieurs seigneuries outre Manche. Il a
épousé la fille de Roger de Breteuil, comte de Hereford (103).

"Il est probable que le Haimericus de Castro Airaut qui souscrit en sa
compagnie l'acte précité, est le futur vicomte Aimeri I qui séjourne
chez son beau-père ou futur beau-père, Raoul de Montfort. Ainsi Raoul,
son fils cadet, aurait reçu le nom et le surnom de son grand-père
maternel. Cette alliance lointaine a pu être préparée par le grand-
père d'Aimeri, le vicomte de Thouars Aimeri IV, qui s'est illustré
lors de la conquête de l'Angleterre et qui n'est décédé qu'en 1093
(104)."

Yours
Margaret

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[Margaret]

Hello Leo
Hope your Martin book turns up soon.

The generations I have gathered from the same Poitou website are the
same as those you've given below, plus a bit: that is

1. Geoffroy II de Thouars m. Adenordis NN
2. Aimery IV de Thouars m. Arengardis (Orengardis) NN
3. Adenordis (Alienor) de Thouars m. Boson II de Châtellerault
4. Aimery I de Châtellerault m. Amauberge la Dangereuse [de Montfort]

The Poitou website also has an article on the Thouars successions that
I've spent hours on and still need to work on as it's alarmingly
complicated.

Weiss Ancestral roots has by the first generation (Aimery de Thouars, father of Eleanor de Thouars, mother of Aimery de >Chatellerault) as source Brown, Anglo Norman Studies (1985).
For all four generations as sources are given Moriarty, "Plantagenet Ancestry", pp 45-46.and Marion Meade, "Eleanor of >Aquitaine", pp 15-17.

Raoul de Montfort, perhaps that was a minor property he owned until he married and got a better one?

There's the following website:
http://www.francebalade.com/touraine/sg ... barthelemy
Can't see anything persuasive one way or the other. At first I thought
first name, Raoul, might help. It appears nowhere in the Bouchard line
and there's no information about Archambaud Borel except his marriage.
In my lists I have 13 Raouls but apart from the de Montforts only 2
are from the 11th century, neither are Châtelleraults. There's Raoul
de Mauléon, Raoul de Faye (de Montfort)'s greatgrandfather's brother
about whom I have no information recorded and there's Raoul I le
Vaillant de Vermandois and as far as I can see he would lead us back
into de Montfort territory family wise. On the other hand, Archambaud
Borel's wife Agnes was the daughter of a Hughes, same as Raoul's elder
brother. But then there were Hughes de Châtelleraults. So far then, if
I were umpire, I'd call it deuce.

It is not much, but I hope it is a bit of a help.

It all helps.
Yours
Margaret

[Margaret]

To cut the short thread I started on Amauberge la Dangereuse, the
arguments in Settipani's "La noblesse du Midi carolingien. Etudes sur
quelques grandes familles d'Aquitaine et du Languedoc du IXe au XIe
siècles (Toulousain, Périgord, Limousin, Poitou, Auvergne)", Oxford,
2004, p. 272-276, have persuaded me that she is more likely the
daughter of Barthélémy de l'Isle-Bouchard and Gerberge than of Raoul
de Montfort. Only four "Dangerosas" have been found, Amauberge, this
11th century daughter of l'Isle-Bouchard and three others from the
12th century. Boson II de Châtellerault and Bouchard de l'Isle-
Bouchard were allies, and, as well as those relatives called "Hughes"
and "Raoul", there are traces of word play when naming girls after
their grandmothers and when making up nicknames. All in all the
consensus stands.
with best wishes for 2008
yours
Margaret