Pierrepont (and Strelley and Longford)

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John Higgins

Pierrepont (and Strelley and Longford)

Legg inn av John Higgins » 29 okt 2004 01:46:57

I'm trying to sort out several questions in the ancestry of the family of Pierrepont of Holme. I've come across several pedigrees of the family and would be interested in thoughts as to which version (or versions) is most accurate.



From a pedigree published in the Harleian Society edition of the 1614 visitation of Nottinghamshire (HSP 4:50), although not necessarily from that visitation:

Sir Robert Pierrepont, m. Jane, dau. of Henry Herris [sic]

Edmund Pierrepont, m. Margaret, sister of Sir John Langford [s/b Longford?]

Sir Edmund Pierrepont, m. Thomasin, dau. of Sir John Melton

Robert Pierrepont, m. Joan, dau. of Sir George Monboucher

Sir Edmund Pierrepont, m. Margaret, dau. of Sir William or Sir John FitzWilliam

Henry Pierrepont, m. a dau. of Richard Montgomery of Derbyshire

[his sister Anne m. Sir Nicholas Stirley [sic - s/b Strelley]]

Francis Pierrepont, m. Margaret, dau. of John Burden



Another pedigree in the same HSP edition (HSP 4:55) identified as "the top of the descent of Perpoint as is sett out in the vissitation in the office made 1614":

Sir Robert Pierrepont of Holme, m. Sara, dau. & heir of Sir John Heriz

Sir Henry Pierepont, m. Margaret, dau. of Sir William FitzWilliam

Sir Edmund Pierrepont, m. Joan, dau. of Sir George Monboucher

Sir Henry Pierrepont, m. Ellen, dau. of Sir Nicholas Langford [Longford]

Henry Pierrepont, m. (1?) Thomasin, dau. of Sir John Melton; (2?) dau. of Richard Montgomery

[his sister Anne m. Sir Nicholas Strelley]

[end of pedigree]



Another pedigree in the same HSP edition (HSP 4:55-6) identified as being from Harleian MS 1400:

Sir Robert Pierrepont of Holme, m. Sara, dau. & heir of Sir John Heriz

Sir Henry Pierepont, m. Margaret, dau. of Sir William FitzWilliam

Sir Edmund Pierrepont, m. Joan, dau. of Sir George Monboucher

Sir Edmund Pierrepont, m. Frances, dau. of Sir William Franke

Sir Henry Pierrepont, m. Ellen, dau. of Sir Nicholas Langford [Longford]

Henry Pierrepont, m. (1?) dau. of Richard Montgomery; (2?) Thomasin, dau. of Sir John Melton

[his sister Anne m. Sir Nicholas Strelley]

(son of Thomasin) Francis Pierrepont, m. Margaret, dau. of John Burdon



From Simon Payling, "Political Society in Lancastrian England: The Greater Gentry of Nottinghamshire" [1991], probably based on the last HSP pedigree:

Sir Robert Pierrepont, m. (1) Sara, dau. & heir of Sir John Heriz

Sir Henry Pierepont, m. Margaret, dau. of Sir William FitzWilliam of Sprotborough

Sir Edmund Pierrepont, m. Joan, dau. of Sir George Monboucher

Sir Edmund Pierrepont, m. (1) Frances, dau. of Sir William Frank

[his sister Elizabeth (not Anne) m. Sir Nicholas Strelley]

Sir Henry Pierrepont, m. Ellen, dau. of Sir Nicholas Longford

Henry Pierrepont, m. Thomasia [sic], dau. of Sir John Melton

Francis Pierrepont



The recently published RPA includes the following piece paralleling part of the above pedigrees (the earlier generations being outside its scope of interest), probably based primarily on Payling:

Sir Edmund Pierrepont, m. (1) Frances, dau. of Sir William Frank

Sir Henry Pierrepont, m. Ellen, dau. of Sir Nicholas Longford

Henry Pierrepont, m. Thomasine, dau. of Sir John Melton

Francis Pierrepont, m. Margaret, dau. of John Burden



Several questions arise from these varying pedigrees, as well as from biographies of various figures in Roskell's House of Commons. The most obvious one is the outline of the early generations of the family. I suspect that Payling's version may be the most accurate, but I'd be interested to know if there's any evidence in that direction.



The Pierrepont who m. Sir Nicholas Strelley (d. 1430) is also a question. In the HOP biography of Strelley, she is called Elizabeth, dau. of Sir Edmund (not specifying which Edmund). In the Strelley bio and that of Sir Henry Pierrepont, she is said to be a sister of Sir Henry, and thus a daughter of the younger Sir Edmund. This doesn't agree with Payling, but it does match the other pedigrees above (ignoring the name difference) and appears to work chronologically (but so could Payling's version).



Finally, a question on the Ellen Longford who m. Sir Henry Pierrepont. RPA makes her a daughter of Sir Nicholas (d. 1415), but the HOP bio on Sir Henry says she was a dau. of the next earlier Sir Nicholas (d. 1401). Rosie Bevan's excellent article on the Longfords in the latest Foundations also makes her a daughter of the earlier Sir Nicholas. Although either parentage could probably work chronologically, Rosie's conclusion seems well documented by contemporary references, while the sources cited by RPA for this connection do not appear to clearly support one alternative or the other.



Any thoughts on these matters?

Rosie Bevan

Re: Pierrepont (and Strelley and Longford)

Legg inn av Rosie Bevan » 30 okt 2004 00:15:46

Dear John

My placement of Ellen Longford as daughter of Nicholas Longford III and
Margery Sulney is inferred from three pieces of circumstantial evidence.

1. Henry Pierrepont, d. 1452, was born prior to 1387 as he was arrested with
his father in 1401 after they disobeyed a summons to present themselves
before the king's council at Westminster [Roskell, HOP, v.4 p. 80] . Ellen,
his wife, was the mother of all his children, and therefore amost likely his
contemporary. I would estimate she was born around 1380-1385. She survived
him in 1452 as below.

Nottinghamshire Archives: Portland of Welbeck: Cavendish Deeds
DD/P/CD/25
Creation dates: 28 Nov 1452
Scope and Content
Quitclaim: Ellen Pierepount widow of Sir Henry Pierepount to Richard
Illingworth:-- property as 23--: Witn. William Kyrkeby son of John Kyrkeby,
Henry Blacwall, Richard Langton. Seal. Endorsed with memorandum of enrolment
on Close Roll (July 1453); and that the warranty covered ("est
collateralis") all heirs of the body of Sir H.P., Ellen being the mother of
all his children.

2. Henry witnessed a family deed of Margery Sulney in 1408 during her second
widowhood, indicating two things a) he was already married to Ellen at this
time b) it was a close relationship to Margery by marriage -he had no call
to witness the deed otherwise. Nicholas Longford IV was aged around 35 in
1408 and while it is possible that he could have had a daughter of
marriageable age, it would be within a limited timeframe. However, if
husband of a granddaughter of Margery, Henry would be less likely to be
called upon to witness Margery's deed.

3) In 1434 Sir Henry Pierrepont acted as a feoffee to Sir Nicholas
Montgomery, husband of Joan Longford, who can be proven to be the daughter
of Margery Sulney. Another feoffee of Montgomery was John Curson, his
brother-in-law by marriage to his sister Margaret Montgomery. The
implication is that they were all of the same generation and that Joan and
Ellen were sisters, which would be consistent with Sir Nicholas choosing the
closest and highest status members from his in-law network to protect his
interests.

Cheers

Rosie


----- Original Message -----
From: "John Higgins" <jthiggins@sbcglobal.net>
To: <GEN-MEDIEVAL-L@rootsweb.com>
Sent: Friday, October 29, 2004 10:34 AM
Subject: Pierrepont (and Strelley and Longford)


Finally, a question on the Ellen Longford who m. Sir Henry Pierrepont.
RPA makes her a daughter of Sir Nicholas (d. 1415), but the HOP bio on Sir

Henry says she was a dau. of the next earlier Sir Nicholas (d. 1401). Rosie
Bevan's excellent article on the Longfords in the latest Foundations also
makes her a daughter of the earlier Sir Nicholas. Although either parentage
could probably work chronologically, Rosie's conclusion seems well
documented by contemporary references, while the sources cited by RPA for
this connection do not appear to clearly support one alternative or the
other.


Any thoughts on these matters?


Gjest

re: Pierrepont (and Strelley and Longford)

Legg inn av Gjest » 30 des 2004 16:21:01

Thursday, 30 December, 2004


Dear MichaelAnne, Rosie, Douglas, Chris, Louise, John (Higgins),
Hap, et al.,

I hope everyone had a fine Christmas.

This is just a quick note to forward evidence found at the A2A
site of the identification of Henry Pierrepont, husband of Margaret
FitzWilliam. This also provides a date (14 April 1323) before which
the Pierrepont-FitzWilliam marriage occurred.

~ Note that 'Lord Henry le Sirop', as opposed to being the
Prince of Pancakes, was most likely Henry le Scrope of Bolton
in Wensleydale, co. Yorks. (d. 7 Sept 1336).

Cheers, and best wishes to all for the New Year!

John



Agreement dated 14 Apr 1323:
' Lord Robert de Pirpoint, in the presence of Lord Henry le Sirop,
and others of the King's justices, having acknowledged that he owes
Lord William Fitzwilliam 80 silver marks, and that he is related to
Lord William, through Margaret, wife of his son Henry, and daughter
of Lord William. He now makes arrangements for repayment at 20 marks
per annum.
At Lincoln. ' [Seal: armorial, shield, 6 lozenges, bottom one
missing. Legend indistinct. Round, 2½ cms, red, on tag.] - A2A, A2A,
Sheffield Archives: Wentworth Woodhouse Muniments [WWM/C - WWM/E],
WWM/D/23



* John P. Ravilious

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