alleged Pudsey royal descents

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Clagett, Brice

alleged Pudsey royal descents

Legg inn av Clagett, Brice » 14 okt 2004 01:19:50

Various royal descents have been suggested for Sir John Pudsey
(ancestor of Henry Corbin, settler in Virginia), but each of them
seems wrong or highly doubtful.

Douglas Richardson's RPA p. 596 claims that Sir John's great-
grandmother was Isabella de Atholl, wife of Sir Ralph Eure and
daughter of Sir Aymer de Atholl. As I pointed out in an earlier
post this seems to be wrong, because according to Scots
Peerage 1:430 the heir of Sir Aymer de Atholl in 1402 was
his great-niece Elizabeth de Strathbogie, wife
of Sir John Scrope.

Gary Roberts' RD600 p. 414 claims a royal descent for Sir John
Pudsey through his mother, Mary Tunstall, who Gary says was
a daughter of Sir Thomas Tunstall and his wife, Eleanor FitzHugh.
But according to Richardson -- who I think is right on this point
-- this Mary Tunstall was a sister, not a daughter, of Sir Thomas
who married FitzHugh, being a daughter of Sir Thomas Tunstall
and Isabella Harington.

Another proferred descent is through the above-mentioned Sir
Ralph Eure's mother, who is said to have been Isabella, daughter
of the 3d Lord Clifford. But other sources (e.g. AR7 p. 167) say
Sir Ralph's mother was Margaret _____, second wife of Sir John
Eure.

Wisdom, any one?

John Higgins

Re: alleged Pudsey royal descents

Legg inn av John Higgins » 14 okt 2004 04:03:03

I can't help to provide a royal ancestry to the Pudseys to lead to Henry
Corbin of Virginia, except to note that the Pudseys did pick up a royal
descent a generation after the tree forks and leads eventually to Henry
Corbin - not much help for Henry however.

A couple of questions on your note:

1) In the Pudsey descent in both RD600 and RPA is shown Henry Pudsey who m.
Margaret Conyers. RPA says Henry d. 14 Jan 1521, but Clay's edition of
Dugdale's visitation of Yorkshire says his will was dated 6 Sept 1517 and
proved 1 March following, citing Testamenta Eboracensia 5:85. Any thoughts
on this difference?

2) I'd be curious to know what evidence there is for the conclusion that
Margaret/Mary Tunstall, wife of Sir Ralph Pudsey, was dau. of Sir Thomas who
m. Isabella Harington and not of his son Sir Thomas who m. Elizabeth
FitzHugh. Secondary sources (visitations and otherwise) appear to be in
conflict and inspecific on this - is the argument essentially one of
chronology? I agree that the chronology does seems to favor the RPA
version, but it would be nice to have better evidence for it.

3) I'm confused by your reference to the parents of Sir Ralph Eure. AR7
line 204 says Ralph is son of Sir John and Isabella Clifford, but it
indicates (incorrectly, I think) that Isabella is dau. of Robert, 1st (not
3rd) Lord Clifford and Maud de Clare. MCS5 line 112 says Isabella was dau.
of Robert, 3rd Lord Clifford (son of the 1st Lord) and Isabella Berkeley.
It also says that Sir John Eure was son of another Sir John and his wife
Margaret - i.e., two Sir Johns, not one with two wives. RPA says Sir Ralph
was son of Sir John and Margaret, but cites a source (Glover's visitation of
Yorkshire) which agrees with the MCS5 version - which is also the version
shown in an Eure pedigree in the [new] History of Northumberland. ???

----- Original Message -----
From: "Clagett, Brice" <bclagett@cov.com>
To: <GEN-MEDIEVAL-L@rootsweb.com>
Sent: Wednesday, October 13, 2004 2:19 PM
Subject: alleged Pudsey royal descents


Various royal descents have been suggested for Sir John Pudsey
(ancestor of Henry Corbin, settler in Virginia), but each of them
seems wrong or highly doubtful.

Douglas Richardson's RPA p. 596 claims that Sir John's great-
grandmother was Isabella de Atholl, wife of Sir Ralph Eure and
daughter of Sir Aymer de Atholl. As I pointed out in an earlier
post this seems to be wrong, because according to Scots
Peerage 1:430 the heir of Sir Aymer de Atholl in 1402 was
his great-niece Elizabeth de Strathbogie, wife
of Sir John Scrope.

Gary Roberts' RD600 p. 414 claims a royal descent for Sir John
Pudsey through his mother, Mary Tunstall, who Gary says was
a daughter of Sir Thomas Tunstall and his wife, Eleanor FitzHugh.
But according to Richardson -- who I think is right on this point
-- this Mary Tunstall was a sister, not a daughter, of Sir Thomas
who married FitzHugh, being a daughter of Sir Thomas Tunstall
and Isabella Harington.

Another proferred descent is through the above-mentioned Sir
Ralph Eure's mother, who is said to have been Isabella, daughter
of the 3d Lord Clifford. But other sources (e.g. AR7 p. 167) say
Sir Ralph's mother was Margaret _____, second wife of Sir John
Eure.

Wisdom, any one?



Brad Verity

Re: alleged Pudsey royal descents

Legg inn av Brad Verity » 14 okt 2004 06:37:36

bclagett@cov.com ("Clagett, Brice") wrote in message news:

Various royal descents have been suggested for Sir John Pudsey
(ancestor of Henry Corbin, settler in Virginia), but each of them
seems wrong or highly doubtful.

_Northumberland Families_ by W. Percy Hedley, 2 volumes (Society of
Antiquaries of Newcastle upon Tyne, 1968-70) was a flawed source when
it came to the Herons, but the article on the Eures may have some
value to you.

Douglas Richardson's RPA p. 596 claims that Sir John's great-
grandmother was Isabella de Atholl, wife of Sir Ralph Eure and
daughter of Sir Aymer de Atholl. As I pointed out in an earlier
post this seems to be wrong, because according to Scots
Peerage 1:430 the heir of Sir Aymer de Atholl in 1402 was
his great-niece Elizabeth de Strathbogie, wife
of Sir John Scrope.

Hedley: "Sir John's son and heir was sir Ralph Evre who was sheriff of
Northumberland in November 1389 and again from 1397 to 1399. He was
sheriff of Yorkshire in 1391 and 1395; in 1403 had a commission to
array the forces of Northumberland and Yorkshire to suppress the
rebellion of Henry, earl of Northumberland. His principal residence
seems to have been Witton, co. Durham, which he had licence to
crenellate in 1410. In 1411 he is styled lieutenant of the constable
of England. He died 10 March 1422. His will was proved 9 September
1422 and administration granted to sir William Eure [ancestor of the
Lords Eure] and Robert Eure esq., his sons and executors.
('SS'[Surtees Society] 45, p.222n.). It seems probable that sir Ralph
was married three times. His first wife was Isabella, one of the
daughters and coheiresses of sir Aymer de Athol, who on 30 April
[unfortunately Hedley left out the year] settled the manor and forest
of Felton on himself and his wife Mary for life with remainder to
their heirs male; if sir Aymer should die without male heirs, Felton
was to go to Ralph de Ever and Isabella his wife, one of sir Aymer's
daughters; should Isabella die without male heirs by her husband
Ralph, Felton was to go to her heirs male by any other husband;
failing this the settlement was on Robert de Isle and Mary his wife,
the other daughter of sir Aymer. Isabella de Ever had no sons and
Felton eventually passed to Robert de Isle."

Also, Hedley: "It seems that the daughters of sir Ralph Ever and their
marriages have been inserted in the visitation pedigree of circa 1485
largely by guesswork with some faint family traditions of connections
with other families. Few of these marriages can be definitely
confirmed.

"The county history pedigree ('NCH'[Northumberland County History]
XII, p.495) states that Margaret, only daughter of sir Ralph Ever by
his wife Isabella de Athol, married sir John Pusdey. The editor of
'Testamenta Eboracensis' part II ('SS' [Surtees Society] 30, p.107n.)
identifies Margaret as a daughter of sir William Evre by his wife Maud
Fitzhugh, but there seems to be no confirmation for either of these
statements. Margaret survived her husband sir John Pudsey of Bolton,
Yorks, and was living at Beverley 25 December 1444 when she made her
will, but there is no suggestion in the will that she was an Ever by
birth."

It should be noted that the 1485 Eure pedigree mentioned by Hedley
above has an unnamed daughter of Sir Ralph Eure by his wife (the
daughter of Sir Thomas Gray) married to "sir Ralph Pudsey". Hedley
adds: "Dodsworth gives her Christian name as Idonia."

[snip]

Another proferred descent is through the above-mentioned Sir
Ralph Eure's mother, who is said to have been Isabella, daughter
of the 3d Lord Clifford.

Hedley: "Robert de Evre is said to have been still living in 1386 and
to have died s.p. His brother John was already a knight 26 October
1360 when he witnessed a confirmation by Thomas de Fenwyke. ('NDD'
p.173). According to a 19th century pedigree he married in 1361
Isabella, daughter of Robert, lord Clifford, but no confirmation of
this has been seen. Sir John died 22 February 1393/4 'being then
constable of Dover Castle and lord steward of the king's house'. A
herald's visitation pedigree apparently made shortly after 1485
commences with this sir John Evre, but the name is spelt Yvres. ('SS'
[Surtees Society] 144, p.110). The antiquary Roger Dodsworth
(1585-1654) who made a copy of the pedigrees made at this visitation
called them 'very authenticall.' As the Yvres pedigree was made
within a hundred years of the death of sir John Evre it can be taken
as reasonably accurate for the 15th century."

But other sources (e.g. AR7 p. 167) say
Sir Ralph's mother was Margaret _____, second wife of Sir John
Eure.

I think they must have confused the two Sir John Eures, father and
son. Hedley gives the Sir John Eure, purported husband of Isabella
Clifford, parents named Sir John and Margaret Eure.

Hedley: "Sir John de Evre died on Saturday in the fourth week in Lent
1367/8 leaving a widow Margaret, and an eldest son and heir Robert who
was aged 26 and more in 1369 when the inquest on his father's death
was held. The widow Margaret made her will 'in the feast of St
Ambrose' 1378 and it was proved at Durham on 27 May the same year.
There is no evidence in the will as to her parentage although it has
been suggested that she might have been a Heron or a Lumley. Her body
was to be buried in the choir of the church of the Preaching Brothers
in Newcastle upon Tyne and she left legacies to the prior and several
of the brothers there, including brother Robert Heron. Ralph de
Lumley and Margaret Lumley were also legatees. The only persons
mentioned in the will as relatives are her son Ralph and his children
Ralph and Margaret. ('Wills and Inv.' I, p.35)."

Hedley then gives - apparently on the evidence of Margaret's will -
three sons to Sir John and Margaret Eure: son and heir Robert, who
dsp, second son and eventual heir Sir John Eure, and a third and
youngest son Ralph Eure.

Since in this scenario, each Sir John Eure has a son named Ralph, the
primary evidence should be checked - it may be that Hedley erred in
making Margaret the widow of father Sir John Eure, and that she was
actually the wife of the son Sir John (who indeed had a son and heir
named Ralph, who himself had a son named Ralph). Though in that case,
she would evidently have predeceased her husband (the younger Sir John
Eure did not die until 1394).

Wisdom, any one?

Hope this helps - it certainly seems quite a puzzle.

Cheers, -----Brad

Douglas Richardson

Re: alleged Pudsey royal descents

Legg inn av Douglas Richardson » 14 okt 2004 07:36:02

My comments are interspersed below. DR

bclagett@cov.com ("Clagett, Brice") wrote in message news:<B1F75BF666FCFD4F9B3EA0D0A58482BDDAAF0C@cbiexm01dc.cov.com>...
Various royal descents have been suggested for Sir John Pudsey
(ancestor of Henry Corbin, settler in Virginia), but each of them
seems wrong or highly doubtful.

Douglas Richardson's RPA p. 596 claims that Sir John's great-
grandmother was Isabella de Atholl, wife of Sir Ralph Eure and
daughter of Sir Aymer de Atholl. As I pointed out in an earlier
post this seems to be wrong, because according to Scots
Peerage 1:430 the heir of Sir Aymer de Atholl in 1402 was
his great-niece Elizabeth de Strathbogie, wife
of Sir John Scrope.

Scots Peerage has it wrong. Sir Aymer de Atholl was definitely the
maternal grandfather of Margaret Eure, wife of Sir John Pudsey. The
evidence for this relationship can be found in the abstract of a
contemporary document published in the book, Pudsay Deeds, by R.P.
Littledale (Yorkshire Arch. Soc. Record Series, vol. 56) (1916). The
document is explicit.

Gary Roberts' RD600 p. 414 claims a royal descent for Sir John
Pudsey through his mother, Mary Tunstall, who Gary says was
a daughter of Sir Thomas Tunstall and his wife, Eleanor FitzHugh.
But according to Richardson -- who I think is right on this point
-- this Mary Tunstall was a sister, not a daughter, of Sir Thomas
who married FitzHugh, being a daughter of Sir Thomas Tunstall
and Isabella Harington.

I've advised Mr. Roberts that Mary (Tunstall) Pudsey was the sister,
not daughter, of Sir Thomas Tunstall. While she loses the Fitz Hugh
connection, Mary still has valid royal ancestry through her mother's
Harington family. The Harington family is descended from the early
Anglo-Saxon kings of England.

Another proferred descent is through the above-mentioned Sir
Ralph Eure's mother, who is said to have been Isabella, daughter
of the 3d Lord Clifford. But other sources (e.g. AR7 p. 167) say
Sir Ralph's mother was Margaret _____, second wife of Sir John
Eure.

I believe Margaret is correct.

Wisdom, any one?

The Atholl-Pudsey connection gives Henry Corbin a valid Plantagenet
descent from King John of England. Full particulars on this line can
be found in my book, Plantagenet Ancestry. Please contact me offline
at my e-mail address below if interested in ordering a copy of my
book.

Best always, Douglas Richardson, Salt Lake City, Utah

E-mail: douglasrichardson@royalancestry.net

Website: http://www.royalancestry.net

Martin E. Hollick

Re: alleged Pudsey royal descents

Legg inn av Martin E. Hollick » 14 okt 2004 09:03:44

bclagett@cov.com ("Clagett, Brice") wrote in message news:<B1F75BF666FCFD4F9B3EA0D0A58482BDDAAF0C@cbiexm01dc.cov.com>...
Various royal descents have been suggested for Sir John Pudsey
(ancestor of Henry Corbin, settler in Virginia), but each of them
seems wrong or highly doubtful.

Douglas Richardson's RPA p. 596 claims that Sir John's great-
grandmother was Isabella de Atholl, wife of Sir Ralph Eure and
daughter of Sir Aymer de Atholl. As I pointed out in an earlier
post this seems to be wrong, because according to Scots
Peerage 1:430 the heir of Sir Aymer de Atholl in 1402 was
his great-niece Elizabeth de Strathbogie, wife
of Sir John Scrope.

Gary Roberts' RD600 p. 414 claims a royal descent for Sir John
Pudsey through his mother, Mary Tunstall, who Gary says was
a daughter of Sir Thomas Tunstall and his wife, Eleanor FitzHugh.
But according to Richardson -- who I think is right on this point
-- this Mary Tunstall was a sister, not a daughter, of Sir Thomas
who married FitzHugh, being a daughter of Sir Thomas Tunstall
and Isabella Harington.

Another proferred descent is through the above-mentioned Sir
Ralph Eure's mother, who is said to have been Isabella, daughter
of the 3d Lord Clifford. But other sources (e.g. AR7 p. 167) say
Sir Ralph's mother was Margaret _____, second wife of Sir John
Eure.

Wisdom, any one?

If you believe Magna Carta Sureties, Line 112, then the John Eure who
married Margaret (---) was the father of another John Eure who married
Isabella de Clifford and they were the parents of your Ralph Eure. I
descend from him through his second marriage to Katherine (de) Aton.
This work cites to Clay's Extinct Peerages of the Northern Counties as
a source.

AR8, has this Ralph in lines 204 and 206 but without parents.

Certainly "Visitation of Yorkshire in the Years 1563 and 1564" by
William Flower, ed. Charles B. Norcliffe (London, 1881), p. 111-114,
has the Eure's as given in Magna Carta Sureties. Maybe Douglas
Richardson can shed light on why he identified Ralph as the son of
John and Margaret and not John and Isabella.

Tim Powys-Lybbe

Re: alleged Pudsey royal descents

Legg inn av Tim Powys-Lybbe » 14 okt 2004 09:50:03

In message of 14 Oct, mhollick@mac.com (Martin E. Hollick) wrote:

<snip on Pudseys>

If you believe Magna Carta Sureties, Line 112, then the John Eure who
married Margaret (---) was the father of another John Eure who married
Isabella de Clifford and they were the parents of your Ralph Eure. I
descend from him through his second marriage to Katherine (de) Aton.
This work cites to Clay's Extinct Peerages of the Northern Counties as
a source.

AR8, has this Ralph in lines 204 and 206 but without parents.

Certainly "Visitation of Yorkshire in the Years 1563 and 1564" by
William Flower, ed. Charles B. Norcliffe (London, 1881), p. 111-114,
has the Eure's as given in Magna Carta Sureties.

It sounds to me as if MCS used this Visitation. Unfortunately this is
one of the weakest visitation books and is probably a cause of the later
rule for visitations that they go no further back than the grandparents
of the person interviewed without very good evidence. This visitation
regularly shows long lines of ancestors with no evidence whatever and
these Eures are around 8 generations before the person interviewd. The
interviewee physically cannot have known all these ancestors and no
evidence is cited, so this visitation should be discounted as evidence.

--
Tim Powys-Lybbe tim@powys.org
For a miscellany of bygones: http://powys.org

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