Stoughton/Lewknor Update

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Martin E. Hollick

Stoughton/Lewknor Update

Legg inn av Martin E. Hollick » 12 okt 2004 00:55:58

Update on the royal line of Rose (Stoughton) Otis

About a year ago there was some discussion on this line on this forum.
Since that time two works have been published regarding this line and
I want to bring people up to date on current thoughts on this
particular line.

About five-six years ago I began researching this line and four years
ago I published my findings on the Pinkham Family forum at
http://genforum.genealogy.com/pinkham/messages/202.html. I also sent
this information to my friend Gary Boyd Roberts for inclusion in
RD600.

Unbeknownst to me, other researchers, Jim and Loretta Dimond, were
working on the same problem. They found actual proof that Edmund
Lewknor's daughter Elizabeth married Thomas Stoughton, something I
found probable. So all glory, laud and honor go to them. So the
line is proven back as follows:

Rose Stoughton, wife of Richard Otis of Dover, NH
Sir Anthony Stoughton m. Agnes Pierce
Sir Lawrence Stoughton m. Rose Ive
Thomas Stoughton m. Elizabeth Lewknor
Sir Edmund Lewknor m. Joan Tirrell

This is certain.

In any case this line was published this year in RD600, p. 376. In
January of this year, Doug Richardson emailed me so that this line
could be included in his work PA3. I discussed my views and my
problems with the timeline of Sir Edmund as a son of Sir Roger Lewknor
and Mary West. Since his publication date was looming he decided not
to include it in PA3. There is a passing mention on p. 402 that Mary
West married Sir Roger, but nothing of their children. I think Mr.
Richardson was correct in proceeding cautiously.

It is certainly possible for this time line to be correct. Lady Mary
West would have to be born before 1433 (the death of Margaret
(Thorley) West). If she married and had children late, she could have
an eldest son born say 1470 (when she was 37) and he, Edmund would be
50 in 1520 when he obviously married Joan Tirrell and had his family
by her. Although it is not mentioned if Edmund were married before
Jane, it is likely and if his earlier wife and children all died,
there would be no reason to mention them in the visitations.

In order to be sure of this line, we need to independently show that a
daughter of Sir Reynold West, the 6th Baron La Warre was the mother of
Sir Edmund Lewknor of Tangmere, Sussex. Certainly, secondary sources
show this already (specifically the visitations of Sussex and Suffolk
and Comber's Sussex Genealogies).

The other thing would be to discover the parentage of Joan Tirrell,
the known wife of Edmund Lewknor, for she may be of royal descent as
well.

In any case, Sir Roger Lewknor, the one that married Lady Mary West
(or not) was the son of another Sir Roger Lewknor and Eleanor Camoys,
both of whom are of royal descent.

I noticed that some people, in responses during 2003, noted web pages
that included Sir Edmund's birth. All those web pages were uncited
(citing to the IGI, Ancestral File, or World Family Tree are not
proper footnotes) and one can easily see that his birth date, as given
in those places, are guesses without any proof whatsoever. I hope
this year people will give proper citations with proof when
responding.

Nathaniel Taylor

Re: Stoughton/Lewknor Update

Legg inn av Nathaniel Taylor » 12 okt 2004 02:26:02

In article <5d20e7f.0410111455.13541cce@posting.google.com>,
mhollick@mac.com (Martin E. Hollick) wrote:

Update on the royal line of Rose (Stoughton) Otis

About a year ago there was some discussion on this line on this forum.

<...>

... So the line is proven back as follows:

Sir Edmund Lewknor m. Joan Tirrell
Thomas Stoughton m. Elizabeth Lewknor
Sir Lawrence Stoughton m. Rose Ive
Sir Anthony Stoughton m. Agnes Pierce
Rose Stoughton, wife of Richard Otis of Dover, NH

[reversed for clarity]

Well, I just pricked up my ears since I just noticed that my children
descend from this Rose Stoughton Otis. Forgive me for being obtuse (and
lacking a copy of RD600): but, given the following proposition,

Sir Roger Lewknor m. Eleanor Camoys
Sir Roger Lewknor m. [?Mary West--dau. Reynold, Baron la Warr;
she must have been b. before 1433]
Sir Edmund Lewknor m. [in 1520] Joan Tirrell

....is what you are saying that the paternal line of Sir Edmund Lewknor
is beyond doubt, but the identity of his mother, and his own birth date,
are not? Now, how is the paternal line proved? Might there be another
generation, or might Sir Edmund belong elsewhere in the Lewknor pedigree
altogether? You mention desiring proof that Sir Edmund Lewknor's
mother was Mary West, dau. of Lord la Warr. Is there already conclusive
proof that his father was Sir Riger Lewknor, son of Sir Roger Lewknor
and Eleanor Camoys? And is there no proof that the younger Sir Roger
Lewknor ever married a West/la Warr, let alone that she was the mother
of Edmund?

Nat Taylor

a genealogist's sketchbook:
http://home.earthlink.net/~nathanieltaylor/leaves/

Martin E. Hollick

Re: Stoughton/Lewknor Update

Legg inn av Martin E. Hollick » 12 okt 2004 20:19:41

Nathaniel Taylor <nathanieltaylor@earthlink.net> wrote in message news:<nathanieltaylor-33A13B.20255111102004@news1.east.earthlink.net>...
In article <5d20e7f.0410111455.13541cce@posting.google.com>,
mhollick@mac.com (Martin E. Hollick) wrote:

Update on the royal line of Rose (Stoughton) Otis
SNIPPED
Sir Roger Lewknor m. Eleanor Camoys
Sir Roger Lewknor m. [?Mary West--dau. Reynold, Baron la Warr;
she must have been b. before 1433]
Sir Edmund Lewknor m. [in 1520] Joan Tirrell

...is what you are saying that the paternal line of Sir Edmund Lewknor
is beyond doubt, but the identity of his mother, and his own birth date,
are not? Now, how is the paternal line proved? Might there be another
generation, or might Sir Edmund belong elsewhere in the Lewknor pedigree
altogether? You mention desiring proof that Sir Edmund Lewknor's
mother was Mary West, dau. of Lord la Warr. Is there already conclusive
proof that his father was Sir Riger Lewknor, son of Sir Roger Lewknor
and Eleanor Camoys? And is there no proof that the younger Sir Roger
Lewknor ever married a West/la Warr, let alone that she was the mother
of Edmund?


Roger Lewknor (the father of Edmund) has a will dated 6 Nov 1509 and
proved 23 Feb 1509/10 at PCC 26 Bennett, in which he mentions his sons
Roger, William, George, and Edmund, daughters Joan, Clemence, Dorothy,
and Elizabeth. He also mentions his wife Anne. Could be a second
wife, the Mary West having already died.

Roger Lewknor the father of that Roger died 4 August 1478 and his will
is at PCC 1 Logge.

So in answer to your question, it does seem that the paternity of
Edmund seems certain, but the maternity is uncertain.

Martin

Douglas Richardson

Re: Stoughton/Lewknor Update

Legg inn av Douglas Richardson » 12 okt 2004 20:49:43

Dear Nat ~

Martin Hollick was correct when he stated that the paternal Lewknor
line is sound and proven. What is not proven is the maternity of Sir
Edmund Lewknor (husband of Joan Tyrrell). It has been alleged in
print that Sir Edmund Lewknor's mother was a West, but, this
arrangement seems to be impossible chronologically. So the
Plantagenet descent through the West family remains unproven, if not
highly unlikely.

However, all is not lost. Sir Edmund Lewknor possesses a valid
descent from William the Conqueror's niece, Judith of Lens, which
connection lies way back in the Lewknor ancestry. This descent gives
the Lewknor family several lines from Charlemagne. I plan to feature
the Judith of Lens-Lewknor connection in my forthcoming book, Magna
Carta Ancestry, which work is scheduled for completion around June
2005.

Best always, Douglas Richardson, Salt Lake City, Utah


Nathaniel Taylor <nathanieltaylor@earthlink.net> wrote in message news:<nathanieltaylor-33A13B.20255111102004@news1.east.earthlink.net>...
In article <5d20e7f.0410111455.13541cce@posting.google.com>,
mhollick@mac.com (Martin E. Hollick) wrote:

Update on the royal line of Rose (Stoughton) Otis

About a year ago there was some discussion on this line on this forum.

...

... So the line is proven back as follows:

Sir Edmund Lewknor m. Joan Tirrell
Thomas Stoughton m. Elizabeth Lewknor
Sir Lawrence Stoughton m. Rose Ive
Sir Anthony Stoughton m. Agnes Pierce
Rose Stoughton, wife of Richard Otis of Dover, NH

[reversed for clarity]

Well, I just pricked up my ears since I just noticed that my children
descend from this Rose Stoughton Otis. Forgive me for being obtuse (and
lacking a copy of RD600): but, given the following proposition,

Sir Roger Lewknor m. Eleanor Camoys
Sir Roger Lewknor m. [?Mary West--dau. Reynold, Baron la Warr;
she must have been b. before 1433]
Sir Edmund Lewknor m. [in 1520] Joan Tirrell

...is what you are saying that the paternal line of Sir Edmund Lewknor
is beyond doubt, but the identity of his mother, and his own birth date,
are not? Now, how is the paternal line proved? Might there be another
generation, or might Sir Edmund belong elsewhere in the Lewknor pedigree
altogether? You mention desiring proof that Sir Edmund Lewknor's
mother was Mary West, dau. of Lord la Warr. Is there already conclusive
proof that his father was Sir Riger Lewknor, son of Sir Roger Lewknor
and Eleanor Camoys? And is there no proof that the younger Sir Roger
Lewknor ever married a West/la Warr, let alone that she was the mother
of Edmund?

Nat Taylor

a genealogist's sketchbook:
http://home.earthlink.net/~nathanieltaylor/leaves/

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