I've read a few of the recent posts about the descendants of Muhammad
and other important Muslim families. Are there any descents traceable
from the Emirs of Cordova, in either the male or female lines?
Matthew
Descendants of the Emirs of Cordova
Moderator: MOD_nyhetsgrupper
-
Francisco Antonio Doria
Re: Descendants of the Emirs of Cordova
Not an absolutely sure line. But I trace the lords of
Maia (in a female line) to Zahadon ibn Halaf,
al-Umawi. However he was an Ummayad of the al-Habibi
line, which isn't descended from the amirs of Cordova.
fa
--- Matthew Rockefeller
<matthew_rockefeller@yahoo.com> escreveu:
_______________________________________________________
Yahoo! Acesso Grátis - Internet rápida e grátis. Instale o discador agora! http://br.acesso.yahoo.com/
Maia (in a female line) to Zahadon ibn Halaf,
al-Umawi. However he was an Ummayad of the al-Habibi
line, which isn't descended from the amirs of Cordova.
fa
--- Matthew Rockefeller
<matthew_rockefeller@yahoo.com> escreveu:
I've read a few of the recent posts about the
descendants of Muhammad
and other important Muslim families. Are there any
descents traceable
from the Emirs of Cordova, in either the male or
female lines?
Matthew
_______________________________________________________
Yahoo! Acesso Grátis - Internet rápida e grátis. Instale o discador agora! http://br.acesso.yahoo.com/
-
Nathaniel Taylor
Iberian descents from Muhammad (was re: Descendants of the E
Matthew Rockefeller <matthew_rockefeller@yahoo.com> wrote:
As Chico has now eloquently pointed out, the Abunazar / Maia descent
that he has investigated can be plausibly (though not proved) linked to
apparent Idrissids and Umayyads who appear in the same region. The fact
is that there is a large number of documented Umayyads down to the 11th
century (a two-part Iberian Umayyad genealogy published in the series on
Muslim onomastics - biographies in al-Andalus runs to several hundred
names); the Idrissids appear to have been perhaps not as widespread in
Spain but also there are several documented Spanish branches. In both
cases, the data dry up with the political upheavals of the 11th & 12th
centuries.
Chico's specific reconstruction is, I think--since it remains a
theory--most important for its symbolic value: there are likely many
such paths, through conversion or intermarriage, in which early noble
Arab descent (and descent from Muhammad himself) is distributed through
the population of later Christian Iberia, and elsewhere. The type of
Christian-Muslim entente that is found in the charters around
10th-century Coimbra is only just now beginning to be explored in a
historical context, to reconstruct this interpermeable society.
In like vein, I do not know about modern Muslim descents from the
nobility of al-Andalus. But with considerable documented emigration
(for example Boabdil after the capitulation of Granada in 1492) I
imagine that there are documented genealogies within the Muslim world
that lead back into al-Andalus, including Umayyads. I wish I knew more
about this, though.
I've read a few of the recent posts about the descendants of Muhammad
and other important Muslim families. Are there any descents traceable
from the Emirs of Cordova, in either the male or female lines?
As Chico has now eloquently pointed out, the Abunazar / Maia descent
that he has investigated can be plausibly (though not proved) linked to
apparent Idrissids and Umayyads who appear in the same region. The fact
is that there is a large number of documented Umayyads down to the 11th
century (a two-part Iberian Umayyad genealogy published in the series on
Muslim onomastics - biographies in al-Andalus runs to several hundred
names); the Idrissids appear to have been perhaps not as widespread in
Spain but also there are several documented Spanish branches. In both
cases, the data dry up with the political upheavals of the 11th & 12th
centuries.
Chico's specific reconstruction is, I think--since it remains a
theory--most important for its symbolic value: there are likely many
such paths, through conversion or intermarriage, in which early noble
Arab descent (and descent from Muhammad himself) is distributed through
the population of later Christian Iberia, and elsewhere. The type of
Christian-Muslim entente that is found in the charters around
10th-century Coimbra is only just now beginning to be explored in a
historical context, to reconstruct this interpermeable society.
In like vein, I do not know about modern Muslim descents from the
nobility of al-Andalus. But with considerable documented emigration
(for example Boabdil after the capitulation of Granada in 1492) I
imagine that there are documented genealogies within the Muslim world
that lead back into al-Andalus, including Umayyads. I wish I knew more
about this, though.
-
Nathaniel Taylor
Re: Iberian descents from Muhammad (was re: Descendants of t
In article
<nathanieltaylor-46659D.08271511102004@news1.east.earthlink.net>,
Nathaniel Taylor <nathanieltaylor@earthlink.net> wrote:
I should just clarify: descent from the Umayyads (kindred of the third
caliph, Uthman, and the caliphal ruling dynasty from 661 to 750 in
Damascus and from 756 to 1031 in Iberia) doesn't imply descent from
Muhammad himself (though they were his collateral kin), but descent from
Idrissids does (the Idrissids, a ruling dynasty in Morocco, are a branch
of the agnate descendants of Hasan, one of the Prophet's maternal
grandsons).
Nat Taylor
a genealogist's sketchbook:
http://home.earthlink.net/~nathanieltaylor/leaves/
<nathanieltaylor-46659D.08271511102004@news1.east.earthlink.net>,
Nathaniel Taylor <nathanieltaylor@earthlink.net> wrote:
I should just clarify: descent from the Umayyads (kindred of the third
caliph, Uthman, and the caliphal ruling dynasty from 661 to 750 in
Damascus and from 756 to 1031 in Iberia) doesn't imply descent from
Muhammad himself (though they were his collateral kin), but descent from
Idrissids does (the Idrissids, a ruling dynasty in Morocco, are a branch
of the agnate descendants of Hasan, one of the Prophet's maternal
grandsons).
Nat Taylor
a genealogist's sketchbook:
http://home.earthlink.net/~nathanieltaylor/leaves/
-
Francisco Antonio Doria
Re: Iberian descents from Muhammad (was re: Descendants of t
Let me add that I fully agree with what Nat says here.
This is, I think, an apt summary of the matter.
Best, chico
--- Nathaniel Taylor <nathanieltaylor@earthlink.net>
escreveu:
_______________________________________________________
Yahoo! Acesso Grátis - Internet rápida e grátis. Instale o discador agora! http://br.acesso.yahoo.com/
This is, I think, an apt summary of the matter.
Best, chico
--- Nathaniel Taylor <nathanieltaylor@earthlink.net>
escreveu:
Matthew Rockefeller <matthew_rockefeller@yahoo.com
wrote:
I've read a few of the recent posts about the
descendants of Muhammad
and other important Muslim families. Are there any
descents traceable
from the Emirs of Cordova, in either the male or
female lines?
As Chico has now eloquently pointed out, the
Abunazar / Maia descent
that he has investigated can be plausibly (though
not proved) linked to
apparent Idrissids and Umayyads who appear in the
same region. The fact
is that there is a large number of documented
Umayyads down to the 11th
century (a two-part Iberian Umayyad genealogy
published in the series on
Muslim onomastics - biographies in al-Andalus runs
to several hundred
names); the Idrissids appear to have been perhaps
not as widespread in
Spain but also there are several documented Spanish
branches. In both
cases, the data dry up with the political upheavals
of the 11th & 12th
centuries.
Chico's specific reconstruction is, I think--since
it remains a
theory--most important for its symbolic value: there
are likely many
such paths, through conversion or intermarriage, in
which early noble
Arab descent (and descent from Muhammad himself) is
distributed through
the population of later Christian Iberia, and
elsewhere. The type of
Christian-Muslim entente that is found in the
charters around
10th-century Coimbra is only just now beginning to
be explored in a
historical context, to reconstruct this
interpermeable society.
In like vein, I do not know about modern Muslim
descents from the
nobility of al-Andalus. But with considerable
documented emigration
(for example Boabdil after the capitulation of
Granada in 1492) I
imagine that there are documented genealogies within
the Muslim world
that lead back into al-Andalus, including Umayyads.
I wish I knew more
about this, though.
_______________________________________________________
Yahoo! Acesso Grátis - Internet rápida e grátis. Instale o discador agora! http://br.acesso.yahoo.com/
-
Francisco Antonio Doria
Re: Iberian descents from Muhammad / debt to Marshall Kirk
Let me just stress my huge debt to Marshall Kirk, who
helped me with the reconstructions & sources and apt
criticism - as well as Nat, of course.
fa
--- Nathaniel Taylor <nathanieltaylor@earthlink.net>
escreveu:
_______________________________________________________
Yahoo! Acesso Grátis - Internet rápida e grátis. Instale o discador agora! http://br.acesso.yahoo.com/
helped me with the reconstructions & sources and apt
criticism - as well as Nat, of course.
fa
--- Nathaniel Taylor <nathanieltaylor@earthlink.net>
escreveu:
Matthew Rockefeller <matthew_rockefeller@yahoo.com
wrote:
I've read a few of the recent posts about the
descendants of Muhammad
and other important Muslim families. Are there any
descents traceable
from the Emirs of Cordova, in either the male or
female lines?
As Chico has now eloquently pointed out, the
Abunazar / Maia descent
that he has investigated can be plausibly (though
not proved) linked to
apparent Idrissids and Umayyads who appear in the
same region. The fact
is that there is a large number of documented
Umayyads down to the 11th
century (a two-part Iberian Umayyad genealogy
published in the series on
Muslim onomastics - biographies in al-Andalus runs
to several hundred
names); the Idrissids appear to have been perhaps
not as widespread in
Spain but also there are several documented Spanish
branches. In both
cases, the data dry up with the political upheavals
of the 11th & 12th
centuries.
Chico's specific reconstruction is, I think--since
it remains a
theory--most important for its symbolic value: there
are likely many
such paths, through conversion or intermarriage, in
which early noble
Arab descent (and descent from Muhammad himself) is
distributed through
the population of later Christian Iberia, and
elsewhere. The type of
Christian-Muslim entente that is found in the
charters around
10th-century Coimbra is only just now beginning to
be explored in a
historical context, to reconstruct this
interpermeable society.
In like vein, I do not know about modern Muslim
descents from the
nobility of al-Andalus. But with considerable
documented emigration
(for example Boabdil after the capitulation of
Granada in 1492) I
imagine that there are documented genealogies within
the Muslim world
that lead back into al-Andalus, including Umayyads.
I wish I knew more
about this, though.
_______________________________________________________
Yahoo! Acesso Grátis - Internet rápida e grátis. Instale o discador agora! http://br.acesso.yahoo.com/