From Muhammad the Prophet to Idris I of Morocco

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Boulus ad-Darwin

From Muhammad the Prophet to Idris I of Morocco

Legg inn av Boulus ad-Darwin » 10 okt 2004 01:23:40

This is the pedigree compiled by Saissi Elhassan, a descendant of the
Idrissides.
It is available on his website (http://membres.lycos.fr/sadiki/post.htm)
which also has other interesting info about Morocco, namely old and
original pictures from colonial times.

As there is a possibility of the lords of Maia being Idrissides, I thought
it would be interesting to post it here:

1.Mahomet
2.Fatima az-Zahra == Ali
3.Hasan
4.Hasan al-Mouttana
5.Abd Allah al-Kamil
6.Idriss I, King of Morocco


--
-darwin-

"I don't care if we're holding 15,000 innocent people. We're winning the
war."
-- Gen. Wodjakowski to Gen. Karpinski, referring to Abu Graib

Leo van de Pas

Re: From Muhammad the Prophet to Idris I of Morocco

Legg inn av Leo van de Pas » 10 okt 2004 04:06:01

Dear Darwin,
First, E. de Zambour, "Manuel de Genealogie et de Chronologie, pour
l'Histoire de Islam", published in 1927 and reprinted in 1976, how reliable
is this work?

You make Idriss I a king of Morocco. The above mentioned book also calls him
Idriss I, but in a footnote it tells that by his concubine, Kanza, he was
father of Idriss II, first Idrissid souvereign of Morocco.

This book has a family tree which covers descendants (in the male line) of
the grandfather of Idriss I. Sadly, for me, the line displayed by Saissi
Elhassan, stops by Abdallah, son of Idriss II. It has a footnote telling he
is the ancestor of the Imghariun family.

Many thanks for persuing this line.
Best wishes
Leo van de Pas
Canberra, Australia
----- Original Message -----
From: "Boulus ad-Darwin" <darwin+usenet@spamcop.net>
To: <GEN-MEDIEVAL-L@rootsweb.com>
Sent: Sunday, October 10, 2004 9:23 AM
Subject: From Muhammad the Prophet to Idris I of Morocco


This is the pedigree compiled by Saissi Elhassan, a descendant of the
Idrissides.
It is available on his website (http://membres.lycos.fr/sadiki/post.htm)
which also has other interesting info about Morocco, namely old and
original pictures from colonial times.

As there is a possibility of the lords of Maia being Idrissides, I thought
it would be interesting to post it here:

1.Mahomet
2.Fatima az-Zahra == Ali
3.Hasan
4.Hasan al-Mouttana
5.Abd Allah al-Kamil
6.Idriss I, King of Morocco


--
-darwin-

"I don't care if we're holding 15,000 innocent people. We're winning the
war."
-- Gen. Wodjakowski to Gen. Karpinski, referring to Abu Graib



Francisco Antonio Doria

Re: From Muhammad the Prophet to Idris I of Morocco

Legg inn av Francisco Antonio Doria » 10 okt 2004 04:30:22

It has been already posted. The conjecture is that
Leodesindo ibn Firhi was a ggson of al-Hasan.

fa

--- Boulus ad-Darwin <darwin+usenet@spamcop.net>
escreveu:
This is the pedigree compiled by Saissi Elhassan, a
descendant of the
Idrissides.
It is available on his website
(http://membres.lycos.fr/sadiki/post.htm)
which also has other interesting info about Morocco,
namely old and
original pictures from colonial times.

As there is a possibility of the lords of Maia being
Idrissides, I thought
it would be interesting to post it here:

1.Mahomet
2.Fatima az-Zahra == Ali
3.Hasan
4.Hasan al-Mouttana
5.Abd Allah al-Kamil
6.Idriss I, King of Morocco


--
-darwin-

"I don't care if we're holding 15,000 innocent
people. We're winning the
war."
-- Gen. Wodjakowski to Gen. Karpinski, referring to
Abu Graib







_______________________________________________________
Yahoo! Acesso Grátis - Internet rápida e grátis. Instale o discador agora! http://br.acesso.yahoo.com/

Boulus ad-Darwin

Re: From Muhammad the Prophet to Idris I of Morocco

Legg inn av Boulus ad-Darwin » 10 okt 2004 04:47:25

On Sun, 10 Oct 2004 00:30:22 +0000 (UTC), Francisco Antonio Doria
<franciscoantoniodoria@yahoo.com.br> wrote:

It has been already posted. The conjecture is that
Leodesindo ibn Firhi was a ggson of al-Hasan.

Indeed it was, I found posts about it by Paul Davis and David Hughes (and
perhaps others).
Next time I'll check better before sending this... Newbies do this sort of
things. :-|


--
-darwin-

"I don't care if we're holding 15,000 innocent people. We're winning the
war."
-- Gen. Wodjakowski to Gen. Karpinski, referring to Abu Graib

Francisco Antonio Doria

Re: From Muhammad the Prophet to Idris I of Morocco

Legg inn av Francisco Antonio Doria » 10 okt 2004 13:16:29

Please, do feel free to ask me about it any time, if
there is any doubt. Just a point: I want to stress
that this is a ***conjecture***. It is a well-founded
one, and its main support stems from the very old
tradition of a royal descent for the Maia family in
the House of León, which however is totally
unsubstantiated. (Some Portuguese genealogists still
try to save it, but I frankly see no documental
possibility.)

The documentary evidence comes from this individual
which I've identified as the lord of Maia himself,
Nazeron ibn Leodesindo ibn Firhi.

fa

--- Boulus ad-Darwin <darwin+usenet@spamcop.net>
escreveu:
On Sun, 10 Oct 2004 00:30:22 +0000 (UTC), Francisco
Antonio Doria
franciscoantoniodoria@yahoo.com.br> wrote:


It has been already posted. The conjecture is that
Leodesindo ibn Firhi was a ggson of al-Hasan.

Indeed it was, I found posts about it by Paul Davis
and David Hughes (and
perhaps others).
Next time I'll check better before sending this...
Newbies do this sort of
things. :-|


--
-darwin-

"I don't care if we're holding 15,000 innocent
people. We're winning the
war."
-- Gen. Wodjakowski to Gen. Karpinski, referring to
Abu Graib







_______________________________________________________
Yahoo! Acesso Grátis - Internet rápida e grátis. Instale o discador agora! http://br.acesso.yahoo.com/

Boulus ad-Darwin

Re: From Muhammad the Prophet to Idris I of Morocco

Legg inn av Boulus ad-Darwin » 12 okt 2004 01:14:29

On Sun, 10 Oct 2004 06:16:23 -0300 (ART), Francisco Antonio Doria
<franciscoantoniodoria@yahoo.com.br> wrote:

[..]
The documentary evidence comes from this individual
which I've identified as the lord of Maia himself,
Nazeron ibn Leodesindo ibn Firhi.

I checked the "Anales de Córdoba" available online at
http://www.webislam.com/, a curious colection of small chronics from the
Caliphate times, but unfortunately there's not any reference to the
arrival of the deposed "al Hajjam" in Cordoba, probably because it was a
low profile event, or they didn't used to write bad things often.
Curiously one of the most famous chronists of the time was Ibn Hajjam (or
Hayyam).
I' suppose the word means "Holy" or something like that (as in Hajji),
probably the nickname of the king.

I wonder how you got to the "Abeth" person, which possibly means Obaid or
Ubbayd.

Paulo

PS. This message was sent to your mailbox for mistake, I still mix up a
bit with this dual Mailing List/newsgroup system.

--
Using M2, Opera's revolutionary e-mail client: http://www.opera.com/m2/

Boulus ad-Darwin

Re: From Muhammad the Prophet to Idris I of Morocco

Legg inn av Boulus ad-Darwin » 12 okt 2004 01:59:02

On Sun, 10 Oct 2004 00:06:01 +0000 (UTC), "Leo van de Pas"
<leovdpas@netspeed.com.au> wrote:

Dear Darwin,
First, E. de Zambour, "Manuel de Genealogie et de Chronologie, pour
l'Histoire de Islam", published in 1927 and reprinted in 1976, how
reliable
is this work?

Hello Leo,

I'm not an expert in genealogy, I just do it amateurishly in my free time,
as I love family stories ever since I was a child, and this way I can join
it with another of my pleasures, History.
I don't know this book, but it sounds tremendously interesting, especially
if it includes the Caliphate of Cordoba (does it?). But even if I knew it
I couldn't give you an expert opinion on its reliability.

You make Idriss I a king of Morocco. The above mentioned book also calls
him
Idriss I, but in a footnote it tells that by his concubine, Kanza, he was
father of Idriss II, first Idrissid souvereign of Morocco.

I've seen the history of the Idrisside family here:
http://membres.lycos.fr/andalus/info/le ... hreb_a.htm

It doesn't have a very pretty start, since Idris was one of the few
survivers of his family, massacred by the Abassides in Kufa and other
parts of Iraq. Then he fled to Morocco where he was received by the
Aourebas tribe, marrying one of his daughters, being then elected by the
Berbers as King of Morocco.
There are many parallels between him and the Ummyad Abd al-Rahman, founder
of the Cordoba independent Emirate - both were persecuted by the Abassides
and had their family slaught, both flew to Morocco and were received by
the Berber, bot were founders of royal dinasties - so, despite their
families have been enemies in the past, strong bonds must have been formed
between the 2 houses of Cordoba and Morocco.

Anyway, I don't know for sure if Idris I was really a King or just a
chieftain like Pelayo de Astúrias.

This book has a family tree which covers descendants (in the male line)
of
the grandfather of Idriss I. Sadly, for me, the line displayed by
Saissi
Elhassan, stops by Abdallah, son of Idriss II. It has a footnote telling
he
is the ancestor of the Imghariun family.

I wonder if one could find some Morocan/Algerian genealogist...
I've another reason to be interested on that area, since perthaps,
somewhere there in their archives are the codices of marriages,
christenings and deaths of Porto Santo (Portuguese Island) stolen by
Algerian Pirates in the XVII century. It would be fabulous if those books
could be found and microfilmed to complete our archives, since I guess
almost every Porto Santo genealogy is stopping there, including one of my
family branches.
I have "close" ancestors (6th grandfather and others) from Morocco, but as
they were captives I guess I'll never know who they really were.
Portuguese nobility had this nasty habit of giving *their* names to their
slaves, so this one is Pedro de Canha, slave of the good priest Francisco
de Canha. *sigh*.

Cheers,

Paulo

--
-darwin-

"I don't care if we're holding 15,000 innocent people. We're winning the
war."
-- Gen. Wodjakowski to Gen. Karpinski, referring to Abu Graib

Francisco Antonio Doria

Re: From Muhammad the Prophet to Idris I of Morocco

Legg inn av Francisco Antonio Doria » 12 okt 2004 13:31:48

This Abeth might be Ahmed, I think. The name appears
in a nasab in one of the two versions of DC 229, the
one published by Herculano (I have the copy, slightly
different, from the Lorvão book).

fa

--- Boulus ad-Darwin <darwin+usenet@spamcop.net>
escreveu:
On Sun, 10 Oct 2004 06:16:23 -0300 (ART), Francisco
Antonio Doria
franciscoantoniodoria@yahoo.com.br> wrote:

[..]
The documentary evidence comes from this
individual
which I've identified as the lord of Maia himself,
Nazeron ibn Leodesindo ibn Firhi.

I checked the "Anales de Córdoba" available online
at
http://www.webislam.com/, a curious colection of
small chronics from the
Caliphate times, but unfortunately there's not any
reference to the
arrival of the deposed "al Hajjam" in Cordoba,
probably because it was a
low profile event, or they didn't used to write bad
things often.
Curiously one of the most famous chronists of the
time was Ibn Hajjam (or
Hayyam).
I' suppose the word means "Holy" or something like
that (as in Hajji),
probably the nickname of the king.

I wonder how you got to the "Abeth" person, which
possibly means Obaid or
Ubbayd.

Paulo

PS. This message was sent to your mailbox for
mistake, I still mix up a
bit with this dual Mailing List/newsgroup system.

--
Using M2, Opera's revolutionary e-mail client:
http://www.opera.com/m2/







_______________________________________________________
Yahoo! Acesso Grátis - Internet rápida e grátis. Instale o discador agora! http://br.acesso.yahoo.com/

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