Banu Qasi, Muslim lines, etc
Moderator: MOD_nyhetsgrupper
-
Francisco Antonio Doria
Banu Qasi, Muslim lines, etc
If you take the trouble to review the files, you'll
see that I started here in 1994 by discussing the
Muslim descent, and by proposing the Abdallah of
Cordova - ? - ``Zaydan'' - ``Zaira'' - Abunazar
connection. I've also speculated on the banu Qasi
connection, which was only suggested on onomastic
grounds.
As it is well-known by all my posts here on this
subject:
- The Abdallah connection was propped up by a
misidentification of King Aboali with Abdallah.
Following a criticism by Manoel Cesar Furtado, I now
take Aboali/Avali to be al-Walid.
- I now identify `Zaydan,' or better, dom Çadão Çada,
to Zahadon ibn Halaf (attested in Herculano's DCs).
- Zahadon might be descended from the rather
well-known al-Habibi line from Caliph al-Walid.
- The lord of Maia is, I am now sure, Nazeron ibn
Leodesindo ibn Firhi. He was - it's a well founded
conjecture - an Idrissid.
- Nat and Marshall pointed out that DC 3 (corrected
date 911) discusses properties of an Ydriz near
Coimbra. And my discussion of DC 229 shows that the
first confirmant was a Hasanid.
fa
_______________________________________________________
Yahoo! Acesso Grátis - Internet rápida e grátis. Instale o discador agora! http://br.acesso.yahoo.com/
see that I started here in 1994 by discussing the
Muslim descent, and by proposing the Abdallah of
Cordova - ? - ``Zaydan'' - ``Zaira'' - Abunazar
connection. I've also speculated on the banu Qasi
connection, which was only suggested on onomastic
grounds.
As it is well-known by all my posts here on this
subject:
- The Abdallah connection was propped up by a
misidentification of King Aboali with Abdallah.
Following a criticism by Manoel Cesar Furtado, I now
take Aboali/Avali to be al-Walid.
- I now identify `Zaydan,' or better, dom Çadão Çada,
to Zahadon ibn Halaf (attested in Herculano's DCs).
- Zahadon might be descended from the rather
well-known al-Habibi line from Caliph al-Walid.
- The lord of Maia is, I am now sure, Nazeron ibn
Leodesindo ibn Firhi. He was - it's a well founded
conjecture - an Idrissid.
- Nat and Marshall pointed out that DC 3 (corrected
date 911) discusses properties of an Ydriz near
Coimbra. And my discussion of DC 229 shows that the
first confirmant was a Hasanid.
fa
_______________________________________________________
Yahoo! Acesso Grátis - Internet rápida e grátis. Instale o discador agora! http://br.acesso.yahoo.com/
-
Boulus ad-Darwin
Re: Banu Qasi, Muslim lines, etc
On Fri, 8 Oct 2004 21:33:56 +0000 (UTC), Francisco Antonio Doria
<franciscoantoniodoria@yahoo.com.br> wrote:
Thank's for the information, I've been reading your former posts and
updating my charts on the Maias, from which apparently I descend via a
certain Leonor do Barbudo which had sons with Payo Araujo c. 1450.
I'll add my (very poor) imput to the discussion, from an old History book
I have (_História de portugal, Bibliotheca Economica_) which belonged to
my grand grand grand mother, and must have been edited around 1870, and is
based mainly on the works of Alexandre Herculano and other previous works:
1.The person usually refered as Musa bin Musa appears there as
Musa-ben-Zeyad "que era Christão renegado, pelejava contra os christãos da
Galiza", wali de Zaragoza and father of Lobia, wali de Toledo.
2.It refers a certain Zeyad-ben-Zayde, "homem nobre e de muito engenho",
which lived at the time of wali el-Haitam-bem-Obaid (Al-Haytham ben
Ubaydal-Kilabi) c. 729, and has been persecuted by him, and so recurred to
the Calipha in Damascus, who gave reason to his pleas and changed the wali
in Cordoba.
3. There is this Alhaur ben Abderraman el Caisi (probably AKA Al-Hurr
al-Thaqafi), "que era um dos caudilhos mais acreditados em Hespanha",
which replaced Ayub cousin of Aziz by orders of Calipha Suleyman, when he
discovered Ayub was Musa family.
He was an ambicious man, and attacked Gallia Narbonne, was cruel and
opressive to Christians and Muslims alike, and so was replaced by Calipha
Jezid (Wazid?) and forced to abandon Spain, being replaced by Alsama ben
Malic El Chulani (Al-Samh ben Malik al-Jawlani, d.721) in the Emirate. I
wonder if this could be the ancestral Casi from the Banu Casi, or someone
related to him? He is refered as one of the most respected Chieftains in
Spain, which coincides with the description of "Count Cassius", but I see
in Bardulia (http://bardulia.webcindario.com/bbdd.php?clave=alh4) that he
arrived from Kairouan, which does not agree with the information provided
by my old History book.
4. Not related to the Banu Casi, but still different from the notes I
have, the book puts a certain Conde Nuno Fernandes de Castela as father in
law of Garcia son of Afonso III de Asturias. I have this person as Nuño
Muñoz de Castrogeriz (father of Mumiadona) who clearly is not the same
person.
What do you think of this?
--
-darwin-
"I don't care if we're holding 15,000 innocent people. We're winning the
war."
-- Gen. Wodjakowski to Gen. Karpinski, referring to Abu Graib
<franciscoantoniodoria@yahoo.com.br> wrote:
If you take the trouble to review the files, you'll
see that I started here in 1994 by discussing the
Muslim descent, and by proposing the Abdallah of
Cordova - ? - ``Zaydan'' - ``Zaira'' - Abunazar
connection. I've also speculated on the banu Qasi
connection, which was only suggested on onomastic
grounds.
Thank's for the information, I've been reading your former posts and
updating my charts on the Maias, from which apparently I descend via a
certain Leonor do Barbudo which had sons with Payo Araujo c. 1450.
I'll add my (very poor) imput to the discussion, from an old History book
I have (_História de portugal, Bibliotheca Economica_) which belonged to
my grand grand grand mother, and must have been edited around 1870, and is
based mainly on the works of Alexandre Herculano and other previous works:
1.The person usually refered as Musa bin Musa appears there as
Musa-ben-Zeyad "que era Christão renegado, pelejava contra os christãos da
Galiza", wali de Zaragoza and father of Lobia, wali de Toledo.
2.It refers a certain Zeyad-ben-Zayde, "homem nobre e de muito engenho",
which lived at the time of wali el-Haitam-bem-Obaid (Al-Haytham ben
Ubaydal-Kilabi) c. 729, and has been persecuted by him, and so recurred to
the Calipha in Damascus, who gave reason to his pleas and changed the wali
in Cordoba.
3. There is this Alhaur ben Abderraman el Caisi (probably AKA Al-Hurr
al-Thaqafi), "que era um dos caudilhos mais acreditados em Hespanha",
which replaced Ayub cousin of Aziz by orders of Calipha Suleyman, when he
discovered Ayub was Musa family.
He was an ambicious man, and attacked Gallia Narbonne, was cruel and
opressive to Christians and Muslims alike, and so was replaced by Calipha
Jezid (Wazid?) and forced to abandon Spain, being replaced by Alsama ben
Malic El Chulani (Al-Samh ben Malik al-Jawlani, d.721) in the Emirate. I
wonder if this could be the ancestral Casi from the Banu Casi, or someone
related to him? He is refered as one of the most respected Chieftains in
Spain, which coincides with the description of "Count Cassius", but I see
in Bardulia (http://bardulia.webcindario.com/bbdd.php?clave=alh4) that he
arrived from Kairouan, which does not agree with the information provided
by my old History book.
4. Not related to the Banu Casi, but still different from the notes I
have, the book puts a certain Conde Nuno Fernandes de Castela as father in
law of Garcia son of Afonso III de Asturias. I have this person as Nuño
Muñoz de Castrogeriz (father of Mumiadona) who clearly is not the same
person.
What do you think of this?
--
-darwin-
"I don't care if we're holding 15,000 innocent people. We're winning the
war."
-- Gen. Wodjakowski to Gen. Karpinski, referring to Abu Graib
-
Todd A. Farmerie
Re: Banu Qasi, Muslim lines, etc
Boulus ad-Darwin wrote:
Setting aside the Muniadona issue, Nuno Fernandez is thought to have
been brother of Gonzalo Fernandez, making him uncle of Count Fernan
Gonzalez. I have seen different reconstructions that place Garcia's
wife as daughter of either he or Nuno Munoz.
taf
4. Not related to the Banu Casi, but still different from the notes I
have, the book puts a certain Conde Nuno Fernandes de Castela as father
in law of Garcia son of Afonso III de Asturias. I have this person as
Nuño Muñoz de Castrogeriz (father of Mumiadona) who clearly is not the
same person.
Setting aside the Muniadona issue, Nuno Fernandez is thought to have
been brother of Gonzalo Fernandez, making him uncle of Count Fernan
Gonzalez. I have seen different reconstructions that place Garcia's
wife as daughter of either he or Nuno Munoz.
taf
-
Francisco Antonio Doria
Re: Banu Qasi, Muslim lines, etc
I'm wondering if there was some confusion between the
banu-Qasi and the very old Yemenite (I think they
stemmed from Yemen) clan al-Qayzi, which moved to
al-Andaluz together with the al-Lahami, several
Quraysh and Ummayad.
fa
--- "Todd A. Farmerie" <farmerie@lamar.colostate.edu>
escreveu:
_______________________________________________________
Yahoo! Acesso Grátis - Internet rápida e grátis. Instale o discador agora! http://br.acesso.yahoo.com/
banu-Qasi and the very old Yemenite (I think they
stemmed from Yemen) clan al-Qayzi, which moved to
al-Andaluz together with the al-Lahami, several
Quraysh and Ummayad.
fa
--- "Todd A. Farmerie" <farmerie@lamar.colostate.edu>
escreveu:
Boulus ad-Darwin wrote:
4. Not related to the Banu Casi, but still
different from the notes I
have, the book puts a certain Conde Nuno Fernandes
de Castela as father
in law of Garcia son of Afonso III de Asturias. I
have this person as
Nuño Muñoz de Castrogeriz (father of Mumiadona)
who clearly is not the
same person.
Setting aside the Muniadona issue, Nuno Fernandez is
thought to have
been brother of Gonzalo Fernandez, making him uncle
of Count Fernan
Gonzalez. I have seen different reconstructions
that place Garcia's
wife as daughter of either he or Nuno Munoz.
taf
_______________________________________________________
Yahoo! Acesso Grátis - Internet rápida e grátis. Instale o discador agora! http://br.acesso.yahoo.com/
-
Francisco Antonio Doria
Re: Banu Qasi, Muslim lines, etc
Please give me some more details on these ancestors of
yours.
fa
--- Boulus ad-Darwin <darwin+usenet@spamcop.net>
escreveu:
_______________________________________________________
Yahoo! Acesso Grátis - Internet rápida e grátis. Instale o discador agora! http://br.acesso.yahoo.com/
yours.
fa
--- Boulus ad-Darwin <darwin+usenet@spamcop.net>
escreveu:
On Fri, 8 Oct 2004 21:33:56 +0000 (UTC), Francisco
Antonio Doria
franciscoantoniodoria@yahoo.com.br> wrote:
If you take the trouble to review the files,
you'll
see that I started here in 1994 by discussing the
Muslim descent, and by proposing the Abdallah of
Cordova - ? - ``Zaydan'' - ``Zaira'' - Abunazar
connection. I've also speculated on the banu Qasi
connection, which was only suggested on onomastic
grounds.
Thank's for the information, I've been reading your
former posts and
updating my charts on the Maias, from which
apparently I descend via a
certain Leonor do Barbudo which had sons with Payo
Araujo c. 1450.
I'll add my (very poor) imput to the discussion,
from an old History book
I have (_História de portugal, Bibliotheca
Economica_) which belonged to
my grand grand grand mother, and must have been
edited around 1870, and is
based mainly on the works of Alexandre Herculano and
other previous works:
1.The person usually refered as Musa bin Musa
appears there as
Musa-ben-Zeyad "que era Christão renegado, pelejava
contra os christãos da
Galiza", wali de Zaragoza and father of Lobia, wali
de Toledo.
2.It refers a certain Zeyad-ben-Zayde, "homem nobre
e de muito engenho",
which lived at the time of wali el-Haitam-bem-Obaid
(Al-Haytham ben
Ubaydal-Kilabi) c. 729, and has been persecuted by
him, and so recurred to
the Calipha in Damascus, who gave reason to his
pleas and changed the wali
in Cordoba.
3. There is this Alhaur ben Abderraman el Caisi
(probably AKA Al-Hurr
al-Thaqafi), "que era um dos caudilhos mais
acreditados em Hespanha",
which replaced Ayub cousin of Aziz by orders of
Calipha Suleyman, when he
discovered Ayub was Musa family.
He was an ambicious man, and attacked Gallia
Narbonne, was cruel and
opressive to Christians and Muslims alike, and so
was replaced by Calipha
Jezid (Wazid?) and forced to abandon Spain, being
replaced by Alsama ben
Malic El Chulani (Al-Samh ben Malik al-Jawlani,
d.721) in the Emirate. I
wonder if this could be the ancestral Casi from the
Banu Casi, or someone
related to him? He is refered as one of the most
respected Chieftains in
Spain, which coincides with the description of
"Count Cassius", but I see
in Bardulia
(http://bardulia.webcindario.com/bbdd.php?clave=alh4)
that he
arrived from Kairouan, which does not agree with the
information provided
by my old History book.
4. Not related to the Banu Casi, but still different
from the notes I
have, the book puts a certain Conde Nuno Fernandes
de Castela as father in
law of Garcia son of Afonso III de Asturias. I have
this person as Nuño
Muñoz de Castrogeriz (father of Mumiadona) who
clearly is not the same
person.
What do you think of this?
--
-darwin-
"I don't care if we're holding 15,000 innocent
people. We're winning the
war."
-- Gen. Wodjakowski to Gen. Karpinski, referring to
Abu Graib
_______________________________________________________
Yahoo! Acesso Grátis - Internet rápida e grátis. Instale o discador agora! http://br.acesso.yahoo.com/
-
Boulus ad-Darwin
From Maias to Araújos (was: Banu Qas i, Muslim lines, etc)
On Sun, 10 Oct 2004 06:37:24 -0300 (ART), Francisco Antonio Doria
<franciscoantoniodoria@yahoo.com.br> wrote:
Francisco,
They are the Araujos from whom a Gonçalo, my 12th grandfather, went to
Madeira in the XVI century establishing himself in Jardim do Mar. The line
I have from the Maias to him follows:
Maias
1. Abu-Nazir == Helena Godins
2. Trastamiro Aboazar == Dórdia Soares
3. Gonçalo trastamires da Maia == Mécia Rodrigues
Sousas
4. Echigue Goçoy == Aragunta Gonçalves da Maia
5. Gomes Echigues == Gontrode Moniz
6. Egas Gomes == Gontinha Gonçalves da Maia
7. Mem Viegas de Sousa == Teresa Fernandes de Marnel
8. Gonçalo Mendes de Sousa == Urraca Sanches de Celanova
9. Mendo de Sousa (o Sousão) == Maria Rodrigues Veloso
Maias/Ambia
10. João Pires da Maia == Guiomar Mendes de Sousa
11. Paio Anes de Ambia == Maria Rodrigues
12. Pedro Pais de Ambia == Maria Fernandes de Lima
Aças (Dazas?)
13. Rodrigo Álvares de Aça == Maria Pires de Ambia
14. Álvaro Rodrigues de Aça == Comendola Gonçalves
Araújos
15. Rodrigo Anes de Araújo == Maria Álvares Daça
16. Paio Rodrigues de Araújo == Brites Velho de Castro
17. Vasco Rodrigues de Araújo == Leonor/mMaria Rodrigues Velho
18. Pedro Anes de Araújo == Inês/Joana Veloso
19. Gonçalo Rodrigues de Araújo == Maria de Magalhães
20. Pedro Anes de Araújo == Mor Gomes Velho
21. Paio Rodrigues de Araújo == Leonor Pereira do Barbudo
22. Álvaro Rodrigues de Araújo == Constança da Veiga de Azevedo
23. Gonçalo Álvares/Rodrigues de Araújo
24. Gonçalo Álvares de Araújo == Leonor de Araújo
^^^^^^^^
This was the first who went to Madeira c. 1530, and from this point on I
follow the Araújos genealogy which has been published in "Das Artes e da
História da Madeira" by David Ferreira de Gouveia under the title "Os
Antepassados dos Araújos Madeirenses". until João Augusto do Nascimento
(1841-1904) my g.g.g. father (* see note in the end).
Another Araújo-Maia line is:
Maias
1. Abu Nazir == Tortora
2. Fromarico Abunazar
3. Teodoredo Fromarigues == Farégia Froilaz
Velhos (Baiões)
4. Nuno Soares Velho == Ausenda Todereis
5. Soeiro Nunes Velho == Aldonça Nunes de Armentares
6. Nuno Soares Velho == Mayor Pires da Silva (or Perna)
7. Pedro Nunes Velho == Maria Annes
Turrichões
8. Fernão Pires Turrichão == Teresa Pires Velho
Maldonados/Aldanas
9.Nuno Pires Maldonado == Aldara Fernandes Turrichão
Sottomayor
10. Paio Mendes Sored == Teresa Annes de Meira
11. Gonçalo Pais de Sottomayor == Mayor Garcia de parada
Andrades
12. Rui Freire de Andrade == Inês Gonçalves de Sotomayor
13. Nuno Rodrigues Freire de Andrade == Clara Martins
14. Rui Freire de Andrade == Maria Fernandes de Meira
Barbudos
15. Bernardim de Barbudo == Isabel de Andrade
Who gave birth to Leonor Pereira do Barbudo, nº21 on the previous line.
I note that there is a difference of 5 generations between the two lines.
This is still very previous, as only now I'm substantiating the data with
stronger evidence and references, as I've been too busy making the other
branches which don't appear on the Madeira published genealogies, and
other lines could still appear (namely from the house of Aldana, which I'm
completing now).
In the waiting list are the Henriques de Noronha, who may also be related
to the Maias, I don't know yet.
(*) From the genealogies it appears that that branch has ended there. It
is not true, however, since he had 2 children with a girl from Calheta,
Joana da Graça de Sousa, my g.g.g. mother and owner of the History book I
refered.
As an unrelated curiosity I'll add that the goodfather of the marriage of
their daughter (my great grand mother) Alda da Graça do Nascimento, was
probably a parent of yours: Oscar Maria de França Dória, "Chefe Dória",
who was a friend of the family. He was also my grand mother's christening
goodfather, and his grand daughter (Sara) is still a good friend of my
mother.
Cheers,
Paulo
--
-darwin-
"I don't care if we're holding 15,000 innocent people. We're winning the
war."
-- Gen. Wodjakowski to Gen. Karpinski, referring to Abu Graib
<franciscoantoniodoria@yahoo.com.br> wrote:
Please give me some more details on these ancestors of
yours.
fa
Francisco,
They are the Araujos from whom a Gonçalo, my 12th grandfather, went to
Madeira in the XVI century establishing himself in Jardim do Mar. The line
I have from the Maias to him follows:
Maias
1. Abu-Nazir == Helena Godins
2. Trastamiro Aboazar == Dórdia Soares
3. Gonçalo trastamires da Maia == Mécia Rodrigues
Sousas
4. Echigue Goçoy == Aragunta Gonçalves da Maia
5. Gomes Echigues == Gontrode Moniz
6. Egas Gomes == Gontinha Gonçalves da Maia
7. Mem Viegas de Sousa == Teresa Fernandes de Marnel
8. Gonçalo Mendes de Sousa == Urraca Sanches de Celanova
9. Mendo de Sousa (o Sousão) == Maria Rodrigues Veloso
Maias/Ambia
10. João Pires da Maia == Guiomar Mendes de Sousa
11. Paio Anes de Ambia == Maria Rodrigues
12. Pedro Pais de Ambia == Maria Fernandes de Lima
Aças (Dazas?)
13. Rodrigo Álvares de Aça == Maria Pires de Ambia
14. Álvaro Rodrigues de Aça == Comendola Gonçalves
Araújos
15. Rodrigo Anes de Araújo == Maria Álvares Daça
16. Paio Rodrigues de Araújo == Brites Velho de Castro
17. Vasco Rodrigues de Araújo == Leonor/mMaria Rodrigues Velho
18. Pedro Anes de Araújo == Inês/Joana Veloso
19. Gonçalo Rodrigues de Araújo == Maria de Magalhães
20. Pedro Anes de Araújo == Mor Gomes Velho
21. Paio Rodrigues de Araújo == Leonor Pereira do Barbudo
22. Álvaro Rodrigues de Araújo == Constança da Veiga de Azevedo
23. Gonçalo Álvares/Rodrigues de Araújo
24. Gonçalo Álvares de Araújo == Leonor de Araújo
^^^^^^^^
This was the first who went to Madeira c. 1530, and from this point on I
follow the Araújos genealogy which has been published in "Das Artes e da
História da Madeira" by David Ferreira de Gouveia under the title "Os
Antepassados dos Araújos Madeirenses". until João Augusto do Nascimento
(1841-1904) my g.g.g. father (* see note in the end).
Another Araújo-Maia line is:
Maias
1. Abu Nazir == Tortora
2. Fromarico Abunazar
3. Teodoredo Fromarigues == Farégia Froilaz
Velhos (Baiões)
4. Nuno Soares Velho == Ausenda Todereis
5. Soeiro Nunes Velho == Aldonça Nunes de Armentares
6. Nuno Soares Velho == Mayor Pires da Silva (or Perna)
7. Pedro Nunes Velho == Maria Annes
Turrichões
8. Fernão Pires Turrichão == Teresa Pires Velho
Maldonados/Aldanas
9.Nuno Pires Maldonado == Aldara Fernandes Turrichão
Sottomayor
10. Paio Mendes Sored == Teresa Annes de Meira
11. Gonçalo Pais de Sottomayor == Mayor Garcia de parada
Andrades
12. Rui Freire de Andrade == Inês Gonçalves de Sotomayor
13. Nuno Rodrigues Freire de Andrade == Clara Martins
14. Rui Freire de Andrade == Maria Fernandes de Meira
Barbudos
15. Bernardim de Barbudo == Isabel de Andrade
Who gave birth to Leonor Pereira do Barbudo, nº21 on the previous line.
I note that there is a difference of 5 generations between the two lines.
This is still very previous, as only now I'm substantiating the data with
stronger evidence and references, as I've been too busy making the other
branches which don't appear on the Madeira published genealogies, and
other lines could still appear (namely from the house of Aldana, which I'm
completing now).
In the waiting list are the Henriques de Noronha, who may also be related
to the Maias, I don't know yet.
(*) From the genealogies it appears that that branch has ended there. It
is not true, however, since he had 2 children with a girl from Calheta,
Joana da Graça de Sousa, my g.g.g. mother and owner of the History book I
refered.
As an unrelated curiosity I'll add that the goodfather of the marriage of
their daughter (my great grand mother) Alda da Graça do Nascimento, was
probably a parent of yours: Oscar Maria de França Dória, "Chefe Dória",
who was a friend of the family. He was also my grand mother's christening
goodfather, and his grand daughter (Sara) is still a good friend of my
mother.
Cheers,
Paulo
--
-darwin-
"I don't care if we're holding 15,000 innocent people. We're winning the
war."
-- Gen. Wodjakowski to Gen. Karpinski, referring to Abu Graib
-
Boulus ad-Darwin
Re: Banu Qasi, Muslim lines, etc
On Sun, 10 Oct 2004 09:35:31 +0000 (UTC), Francisco Antonio Doria
<franciscoantoniodoria@yahoo.com.br> wrote:
And there was that Abd AlRahman Al Qaisi who was Emir c.720, who must have
been contemporary to the mythical "Casius".
I wonder why is he refered in a way that seems to indicate he was a local
caudillo in my History book, but I don't think the Calipha in Damascus
would give the Emirate to a recent converted but yet, at that time
EVERYONE was a recent converted.
We know that Muslims have been in Hispania since the times of The Prophet,
it wouldn't surprise me if some Hispanic caudillo would have converted
earlier in the VII century, when the country was divided between Arianism
and Christianism, and he decided to choose a 3rd way... Of course this is
just a wild guess.
--
-darwin-
"I don't care if we're holding 15,000 innocent people. We're winning the
war."
-- Gen. Wodjakowski to Gen. Karpinski, referring to Abu Graib
<franciscoantoniodoria@yahoo.com.br> wrote:
I'm wondering if there was some confusion between the
banu-Qasi and the very old Yemenite (I think they
stemmed from Yemen) clan al-Qayzi, which moved to
al-Andaluz together with the al-Lahami, several
Quraysh and Ummayad.
And there was that Abd AlRahman Al Qaisi who was Emir c.720, who must have
been contemporary to the mythical "Casius".
I wonder why is he refered in a way that seems to indicate he was a local
caudillo in my History book, but I don't think the Calipha in Damascus
would give the Emirate to a recent converted but yet, at that time
EVERYONE was a recent converted.
We know that Muslims have been in Hispania since the times of The Prophet,
it wouldn't surprise me if some Hispanic caudillo would have converted
earlier in the VII century, when the country was divided between Arianism
and Christianism, and he decided to choose a 3rd way... Of course this is
just a wild guess.
--
-darwin-
"I don't care if we're holding 15,000 innocent people. We're winning the
war."
-- Gen. Wodjakowski to Gen. Karpinski, referring to Abu Graib
-
Todd A. Farmerie
Re: From Maias to Araújos (was: Banu Qasi, Muslim lines, et
Boulus ad-Darwin wrote:
I have not studied these lines in detail (even though parts of both are
shared by Sancha de Ayala, through whom many Americans derive Maia
descent) but I did notice a couple of points that may be problematic.
Is it possible that the wives of generations 4 & 6 are mistaken
duplication of the same individual?
This connection seems to break with patronymic continuity - I would
expect Nunes to be used for a daughter of Nuno, not Annes.
taf
They are the Araujos from whom a Gonçalo, my 12th grandfather, went to
Madeira in the XVI century establishing himself in Jardim do Mar. The
line I have from the Maias to him follows:
I have not studied these lines in detail (even though parts of both are
shared by Sancha de Ayala, through whom many Americans derive Maia
descent) but I did notice a couple of points that may be problematic.
Maias
1. Abu-Nazir == Helena Godins
2. Trastamiro Aboazar == Dórdia Soares
3. Gonçalo trastamires da Maia == Mécia Rodrigues
Sousas
4. Echigue Goçoy == Aragunta Gonçalves da Maia
5. Gomes Echigues == Gontrode Moniz
6. Egas Gomes == Gontinha Gonçalves da Maia
Is it possible that the wives of generations 4 & 6 are mistaken
duplication of the same individual?
Another Araújo-Maia line is:
Turrichões
8. Fernão Pires Turrichão == Teresa Pires Velho
Maldonados/Aldanas
9.Nuno Pires Maldonado == Aldara Fernandes Turrichão
Sottomayor
10. Paio Mendes Sored == Teresa Annes de Meira
11. Gonçalo Pais de Sottomayor == Mayor Garcia de parada
This connection seems to break with patronymic continuity - I would
expect Nunes to be used for a daughter of Nuno, not Annes.
taf
-
Boulus ad-Darwin
Re: From Maias to Araújos (was: Banu Qas i, Muslim lines, et
On Mon, 11 Oct 2004 18:45:20 -0600, Todd A. Farmerie
<farmerie@interfold.com> wrote:
It doesn't seems like that.
First one, Echigue Gozoy, is son of Gozoy Aulfes (AKA Vizoi Vizois,
brother of Santa Senhorinha de Basto).
He was Sr. do Couto de Ornellas,Hra. e Paço de Novelllas.
He married Aragunta, daughter of Gonçalo Trastamires da Maia, grandson of
the so called Abu-Nazir.
Second is Egas Gomes de Sousa, the first who used Sousa in the name.
He married Gontinha, daughter of Gonçalo Mendes da Maia "o Lidador",
grandson of first Gonçalo.
So, there appears to exist a coherent explanation for these patronimics.
Yes, you're right, there's one missing generation, and a mistaken marriage.
Corrected it stands as:
Sottomayor
10. Paio Mendes Sored == Ermezenda Nunes Maldonado
11. Gonçalo Pais de Sottomayor == Teresa Annes de Meira
12. Gonçalo Pais de Sottomayor == Mayor Garcia de Parada
There must be some mistake with this Gonçalo, it appears to be duplicated,
and that's what tricked me into jumping him.
I'll have to look into this.
However, if one was to rely on patronimics, the entire lineage of the
Araujos would go bananas, I guess, as there are so many cases where they
do not agree. :-\
--
-darwin-
"I don't care if we're holding 15,000 innocent people. We're winning the
war."
-- Gen. Wodjakowski to Gen. Karpinski, referring to Abu Graib
<farmerie@interfold.com> wrote:
Boulus ad-Darwin wrote:
They are the Araujos from whom a Gonçalo, my 12th grandfather, went
to Madeira in the XVI century establishing himself in Jardim do Mar.
The line I have from the Maias to him follows:
I have not studied these lines in detail (even though parts of both are
shared by Sancha de Ayala, through whom many Americans derive Maia
descent) but I did notice a couple of points that may be problematic.
Maias
1. Abu-Nazir == Helena Godins
2. Trastamiro Aboazar == Dórdia Soares
3. Gonçalo trastamires da Maia == Mécia Rodrigues
Sousas
4. Echigue Goçoy == Aragunta Gonçalves da Maia
5. Gomes Echigues == Gontrode Moniz
6. Egas Gomes == Gontinha Gonçalves da Maia
Is it possible that the wives of generations 4 & 6 are mistaken
duplication of the same individual?
It doesn't seems like that.
First one, Echigue Gozoy, is son of Gozoy Aulfes (AKA Vizoi Vizois,
brother of Santa Senhorinha de Basto).
He was Sr. do Couto de Ornellas,Hra. e Paço de Novelllas.
He married Aragunta, daughter of Gonçalo Trastamires da Maia, grandson of
the so called Abu-Nazir.
Second is Egas Gomes de Sousa, the first who used Sousa in the name.
He married Gontinha, daughter of Gonçalo Mendes da Maia "o Lidador",
grandson of first Gonçalo.
So, there appears to exist a coherent explanation for these patronimics.
Another Araújo-Maia line is:
Turrichões
8. Fernão Pires Turrichão == Teresa Pires Velho
Maldonados/Aldanas
9.Nuno Pires Maldonado == Aldara Fernandes Turrichão
Sottomayor
10. Paio Mendes Sored == Teresa Annes de Meira
11. Gonçalo Pais de Sottomayor == Mayor Garcia de parada
This connection seems to break with patronymic continuity - I would
expect Nunes to be used for a daughter of Nuno, not Annes.
Yes, you're right, there's one missing generation, and a mistaken marriage.
Corrected it stands as:
Sottomayor
10. Paio Mendes Sored == Ermezenda Nunes Maldonado
11. Gonçalo Pais de Sottomayor == Teresa Annes de Meira
12. Gonçalo Pais de Sottomayor == Mayor Garcia de Parada
There must be some mistake with this Gonçalo, it appears to be duplicated,
and that's what tricked me into jumping him.
I'll have to look into this.
However, if one was to rely on patronimics, the entire lineage of the
Araujos would go bananas, I guess, as there are so many cases where they
do not agree. :-\
--
-darwin-
"I don't care if we're holding 15,000 innocent people. We're winning the
war."
-- Gen. Wodjakowski to Gen. Karpinski, referring to Abu Graib
-
Todd A. Farmerie
Re: From Maias to Araújos (was: Banu Qasi, Muslim lines, et
Boulus ad-Darwin wrote:
It may not be a mistake - just a little later, the Castillians started
to abandon the strict use of patronymics, and it could be that the
Sotomayor got an early start, but I suspect instead that there is a
mistake. As it stands, this generation of the Sotomayor is a muddle in
traditional pedigree collections, so there must be something amiss. It
is in this generation that the published Sotomayor ancestry of Sancha de
Ayala likewise goes astray.
As I said, it depends on the time period. As early dates, it was
invariant. It is only at later times (starting late 12th century in
Castile for the earliest families) that this fails to be a guide, but
likewise disagreement is no longer an indication of error. Even when
the system broke down, it was in favor of a novel system that had rules
of its own.
taf
Sottomayor
10. Paio Mendes Sored == Ermezenda Nunes Maldonado
11. Gonçalo Pais de Sottomayor == Teresa Annes de Meira
12. Gonçalo Pais de Sottomayor == Mayor Garcia de Parada
There must be some mistake with this Gonçalo, it appears to be
duplicated, and that's what tricked me into jumping him.
I'll have to look into this.
It may not be a mistake - just a little later, the Castillians started
to abandon the strict use of patronymics, and it could be that the
Sotomayor got an early start, but I suspect instead that there is a
mistake. As it stands, this generation of the Sotomayor is a muddle in
traditional pedigree collections, so there must be something amiss. It
is in this generation that the published Sotomayor ancestry of Sancha de
Ayala likewise goes astray.
However, if one was to rely on patronimics, the entire lineage of the
Araujos would go bananas, I guess, as there are so many cases where
they do not agree. :-\
As I said, it depends on the time period. As early dates, it was
invariant. It is only at later times (starting late 12th century in
Castile for the earliest families) that this fails to be a guide, but
likewise disagreement is no longer an indication of error. Even when
the system broke down, it was in favor of a novel system that had rules
of its own.
taf
-
Francisco Antonio Doria
Re: From Maias to Araújos (was: Banu Qasi, Muslim lines, et
Patronymic rules & surname adoption rules were
different in Portugal and Castille. The patronymic
system only brike down in the 15th century in
Portugal, when the surname adoption rules became much
more complex.
fa
--- "Todd A. Farmerie" <farmerie@interfold.com>
escreveu:
_______________________________________________________
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different in Portugal and Castille. The patronymic
system only brike down in the 15th century in
Portugal, when the surname adoption rules became much
more complex.
fa
--- "Todd A. Farmerie" <farmerie@interfold.com>
escreveu:
Boulus ad-Darwin wrote:
Sottomayor
10. Paio Mendes Sored == Ermezenda Nunes Maldonado
11. Gonçalo Pais de Sottomayor == Teresa Annes de
Meira
12. Gonçalo Pais de Sottomayor == Mayor Garcia de
Parada
There must be some mistake with this Gonçalo, it
appears to be
duplicated, and that's what tricked me into
jumping him.
I'll have to look into this.
It may not be a mistake - just a little later, the
Castillians started
to abandon the strict use of patronymics, and it
could be that the
Sotomayor got an early start, but I suspect instead
that there is a
mistake. As it stands, this generation of the
Sotomayor is a muddle in
traditional pedigree collections, so there must be
something amiss. It
is in this generation that the published Sotomayor
ancestry of Sancha de
Ayala likewise goes astray.
However, if one was to rely on patronimics, the
entire lineage of the
Araujos would go bananas, I guess, as there are so
many cases where
they do not agree. :-\
As I said, it depends on the time period. As early
dates, it was
invariant. It is only at later times (starting late
12th century in
Castile for the earliest families) that this fails
to be a guide, but
likewise disagreement is no longer an indication of
error. Even when
the system broke down, it was in favor of a novel
system that had rules
of its own.
taf
_______________________________________________________
Yahoo! Acesso Grátis - Internet rápida e grátis. Instale o discador agora! http://br.acesso.yahoo.com/
-
Francisco Antonio Doria
Re: From Maias to Araújos (was: Banu Qasi, Muslim lines, et
Let me see if the lines can be fixed. This `plugging
in' of the Sousão lineage into the Maia descent is
totally wrong.
fa
--- Boulus ad-Darwin <darwin+usenet@spamcop.net>
escreveu:
_______________________________________________________
Yahoo! Acesso Grátis - Internet rápida e grátis. Instale o discador agora! http://br.acesso.yahoo.com/
in' of the Sousão lineage into the Maia descent is
totally wrong.
fa
--- Boulus ad-Darwin <darwin+usenet@spamcop.net>
escreveu:
On Mon, 11 Oct 2004 18:45:20 -0600, Todd A. Farmerie
farmerie@interfold.com> wrote:
Boulus ad-Darwin wrote:
They are the Araujos from whom a Gonçalo, my
12th grandfather, went
to Madeira in the XVI century establishing
himself in Jardim do Mar.
The line I have from the Maias to him follows:
I have not studied these lines in detail (even
though parts of both are
shared by Sancha de Ayala, through whom many
Americans derive Maia
descent) but I did notice a couple of points that
may be problematic.
Maias
1. Abu-Nazir == Helena Godins
2. Trastamiro Aboazar == Dórdia Soares
3. Gonçalo trastamires da Maia == Mécia Rodrigues
Sousas
4. Echigue Goçoy == Aragunta Gonçalves da Maia
5. Gomes Echigues == Gontrode Moniz
6. Egas Gomes == Gontinha Gonçalves da Maia
Is it possible that the wives of generations 4 & 6
are mistaken
duplication of the same individual?
It doesn't seems like that.
First one, Echigue Gozoy, is son of Gozoy Aulfes
(AKA Vizoi Vizois,
brother of Santa Senhorinha de Basto).
He was Sr. do Couto de Ornellas,Hra. e Paço de
Novelllas.
He married Aragunta, daughter of Gonçalo Trastamires
da Maia, grandson of
the so called Abu-Nazir.
Second is Egas Gomes de Sousa, the first who used
Sousa in the name.
He married Gontinha, daughter of Gonçalo Mendes da
Maia "o Lidador",
grandson of first Gonçalo.
So, there appears to exist a coherent explanation
for these patronimics.
Another Araújo-Maia line is:
Turrichões
8. Fernão Pires Turrichão == Teresa Pires Velho
Maldonados/Aldanas
9.Nuno Pires Maldonado == Aldara Fernandes
Turrichão
Sottomayor
10. Paio Mendes Sored == Teresa Annes de Meira
11. Gonçalo Pais de Sottomayor == Mayor Garcia de
parada
This connection seems to break with patronymic
continuity - I would
expect Nunes to be used for a daughter of Nuno,
not Annes.
Yes, you're right, there's one missing generation,
and a mistaken marriage.
Corrected it stands as:
Sottomayor
10. Paio Mendes Sored == Ermezenda Nunes Maldonado
11. Gonçalo Pais de Sottomayor == Teresa Annes de
Meira
12. Gonçalo Pais de Sottomayor == Mayor Garcia de
Parada
There must be some mistake with this Gonçalo, it
appears to be duplicated,
and that's what tricked me into jumping him.
I'll have to look into this.
However, if one was to rely on patronimics, the
entire lineage of the
Araujos would go bananas, I guess, as there are so
many cases where they
do not agree. :-\
--
-darwin-
"I don't care if we're holding 15,000 innocent
people. We're winning the
war."
-- Gen. Wodjakowski to Gen. Karpinski, referring to
Abu Graib
_______________________________________________________
Yahoo! Acesso Grátis - Internet rápida e grátis. Instale o discador agora! http://br.acesso.yahoo.com/
-
Francisco Antonio Doria
Re: Banu Qasi, Muslim lines, etc
Well, I'm just raising the question, because this
Cassius is nowhere to be found, while the al-Qayzi are
everywhere in al-Andaluz...
fa
--- Boulus ad-Darwin <darwin+usenet@spamcop.net>
escreveu:
_______________________________________________________
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Cassius is nowhere to be found, while the al-Qayzi are
everywhere in al-Andaluz...
fa
--- Boulus ad-Darwin <darwin+usenet@spamcop.net>
escreveu:
On Sun, 10 Oct 2004 09:35:31 +0000 (UTC), Francisco
Antonio Doria
franciscoantoniodoria@yahoo.com.br> wrote:
I'm wondering if there was some confusion between
the
banu-Qasi and the very old Yemenite (I think they
stemmed from Yemen) clan al-Qayzi, which moved to
al-Andaluz together with the al-Lahami, several
Quraysh and Ummayad.
And there was that Abd AlRahman Al Qaisi who was
Emir c.720, who must have
been contemporary to the mythical "Casius".
I wonder why is he refered in a way that seems to
indicate he was a local
caudillo in my History book, but I don't think the
Calipha in Damascus
would give the Emirate to a recent converted but
yet, at that time
EVERYONE was a recent converted.
We know that Muslims have been in Hispania since the
times of The Prophet,
it wouldn't surprise me if some Hispanic caudillo
would have converted
earlier in the VII century, when the country was
divided between Arianism
and Christianism, and he decided to choose a 3rd
way... Of course this is
just a wild guess.
--
-darwin-
"I don't care if we're holding 15,000 innocent
people. We're winning the
war."
-- Gen. Wodjakowski to Gen. Karpinski, referring to
Abu Graib
_______________________________________________________
Yahoo! Acesso Grátis - Internet rápida e grátis. Instale o discador agora! http://br.acesso.yahoo.com/
-
Francisco Antonio Doria
Re: From Maias to Araújos (was: Banu Qasi, Muslim lines, et
Let me check the lines. At first sight, and seen in
full, they appear pretty sound to me.
Oscar de França Doria is (was) a close relative pof
Miguel de França Doria. Miguel is in the portugal-gen
list and is a gson of the late Visconde de Torre Bela.
We come from different, but closely related, branches
of the family.
fa
--- Boulus ad-Darwin <darwin+usenet@spamcop.net>
escreveu:
_______________________________________________________
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full, they appear pretty sound to me.
Oscar de França Doria is (was) a close relative pof
Miguel de França Doria. Miguel is in the portugal-gen
list and is a gson of the late Visconde de Torre Bela.
We come from different, but closely related, branches
of the family.
fa
--- Boulus ad-Darwin <darwin+usenet@spamcop.net>
escreveu:
On Sun, 10 Oct 2004 06:37:24 -0300 (ART), Francisco
Antonio Doria
franciscoantoniodoria@yahoo.com.br> wrote:
Please give me some more details on these
ancestors of
yours.
fa
Francisco,
They are the Araujos from whom a Gonçalo, my 12th
grandfather, went to
Madeira in the XVI century establishing himself in
Jardim do Mar. The line
I have from the Maias to him follows:
Maias
1. Abu-Nazir == Helena Godins
2. Trastamiro Aboazar == Dórdia Soares
3. Gonçalo trastamires da Maia == Mécia Rodrigues
Sousas
4. Echigue Goçoy == Aragunta Gonçalves da Maia
5. Gomes Echigues == Gontrode Moniz
6. Egas Gomes == Gontinha Gonçalves da Maia
7. Mem Viegas de Sousa == Teresa Fernandes de Marnel
8. Gonçalo Mendes de Sousa == Urraca Sanches de
Celanova
9. Mendo de Sousa (o Sousão) == Maria Rodrigues
Veloso
Maias/Ambia
10. João Pires da Maia == Guiomar Mendes de Sousa
11. Paio Anes de Ambia == Maria Rodrigues
12. Pedro Pais de Ambia == Maria Fernandes de Lima
Aças (Dazas?)
13. Rodrigo Álvares de Aça == Maria Pires de Ambia
14. Álvaro Rodrigues de Aça == Comendola Gonçalves
Araújos
15. Rodrigo Anes de Araújo == Maria Álvares Daça
16. Paio Rodrigues de Araújo == Brites Velho de
Castro
17. Vasco Rodrigues de Araújo == Leonor/mMaria
Rodrigues Velho
18. Pedro Anes de Araújo == Inês/Joana Veloso
19. Gonçalo Rodrigues de Araújo == Maria de
Magalhães
20. Pedro Anes de Araújo == Mor Gomes Velho
21. Paio Rodrigues de Araújo == Leonor Pereira do
Barbudo
22. Álvaro Rodrigues de Araújo == Constança da Veiga
de Azevedo
23. Gonçalo Álvares/Rodrigues de Araújo
24. Gonçalo Álvares de Araújo == Leonor de Araújo
^^^^^^^^
This was the first who went to Madeira c. 1530, and
from this point on I
follow the Araújos genealogy which has been
published in "Das Artes e da
História da Madeira" by David Ferreira de Gouveia
under the title "Os
Antepassados dos Araújos Madeirenses". until João
Augusto do Nascimento
(1841-1904) my g.g.g. father (* see note in the
end).
Another Araújo-Maia line is:
Maias
1. Abu Nazir == Tortora
2. Fromarico Abunazar
3. Teodoredo Fromarigues == Farégia Froilaz
Velhos (Baiões)
4. Nuno Soares Velho == Ausenda Todereis
5. Soeiro Nunes Velho == Aldonça Nunes de Armentares
6. Nuno Soares Velho == Mayor Pires da Silva (or
Perna)
7. Pedro Nunes Velho == Maria Annes
Turrichões
8. Fernão Pires Turrichão == Teresa Pires Velho
Maldonados/Aldanas
9.Nuno Pires Maldonado == Aldara Fernandes Turrichão
Sottomayor
10. Paio Mendes Sored == Teresa Annes de Meira
11. Gonçalo Pais de Sottomayor == Mayor Garcia de
parada
Andrades
12. Rui Freire de Andrade == Inês Gonçalves de
Sotomayor
13. Nuno Rodrigues Freire de Andrade == Clara
Martins
14. Rui Freire de Andrade == Maria Fernandes de
Meira
Barbudos
15. Bernardim de Barbudo == Isabel de Andrade
Who gave birth to Leonor Pereira do Barbudo, nº21 on
the previous line.
I note that there is a difference of 5 generations
between the two lines.
This is still very previous, as only now I'm
substantiating the data with
stronger evidence and references, as I've been too
busy making the other
branches which don't appear on the Madeira published
genealogies, and
other lines could still appear (namely from the
house of Aldana, which I'm
completing now).
In the waiting list are the Henriques de Noronha,
who may also be related
to the Maias, I don't know yet.
(*) From the genealogies it appears that that branch
has ended there. It
is not true, however, since he had 2 children with a
girl from Calheta,
Joana da Graça de Sousa, my g.g.g. mother and owner
of the History book I
refered.
As an unrelated curiosity I'll add that the
goodfather of the marriage of
their daughter (my great grand mother) Alda da Graça
do Nascimento, was
probably a parent of yours: Oscar Maria de França
Dória, "Chefe Dória",
who was a friend of the family. He was also my grand
mother's christening
goodfather, and his grand daughter (Sara) is still a
good friend of my
mother.
Cheers,
Paulo
--
-darwin-
"I don't care if we're holding 15,000 innocent
people. We're winning the
war."
-- Gen. Wodjakowski to Gen. Karpinski, referring to
Abu Graib
_______________________________________________________
Yahoo! Acesso Grátis - Internet rápida e grátis. Instale o discador agora! http://br.acesso.yahoo.com/
-
Francisco Antonio Doria
Re: From Maias to Araújos (was: Banu Qasi, Muslim lines, et
First (minor) correction: the lord of Maia married
Unisco Godins.
fa
--- Boulus ad-Darwin <darwin+usenet@spamcop.net>
escreveu:
_______________________________________________________
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Unisco Godins.
fa
--- Boulus ad-Darwin <darwin+usenet@spamcop.net>
escreveu:
On Sun, 10 Oct 2004 06:37:24 -0300 (ART), Francisco
Antonio Doria
franciscoantoniodoria@yahoo.com.br> wrote:
Please give me some more details on these
ancestors of
yours.
fa
Francisco,
They are the Araujos from whom a Gonçalo, my 12th
grandfather, went to
Madeira in the XVI century establishing himself in
Jardim do Mar. The line
I have from the Maias to him follows:
Maias
1. Abu-Nazir == Helena Godins
2. Trastamiro Aboazar == Dórdia Soares
3. Gonçalo trastamires da Maia == Mécia Rodrigues
Sousas
4. Echigue Goçoy == Aragunta Gonçalves da Maia
5. Gomes Echigues == Gontrode Moniz
6. Egas Gomes == Gontinha Gonçalves da Maia
7. Mem Viegas de Sousa == Teresa Fernandes de Marnel
8. Gonçalo Mendes de Sousa == Urraca Sanches de
Celanova
9. Mendo de Sousa (o Sousão) == Maria Rodrigues
Veloso
Maias/Ambia
10. João Pires da Maia == Guiomar Mendes de Sousa
11. Paio Anes de Ambia == Maria Rodrigues
12. Pedro Pais de Ambia == Maria Fernandes de Lima
Aças (Dazas?)
13. Rodrigo Álvares de Aça == Maria Pires de Ambia
14. Álvaro Rodrigues de Aça == Comendola Gonçalves
Araújos
15. Rodrigo Anes de Araújo == Maria Álvares Daça
16. Paio Rodrigues de Araújo == Brites Velho de
Castro
17. Vasco Rodrigues de Araújo == Leonor/mMaria
Rodrigues Velho
18. Pedro Anes de Araújo == Inês/Joana Veloso
19. Gonçalo Rodrigues de Araújo == Maria de
Magalhães
20. Pedro Anes de Araújo == Mor Gomes Velho
21. Paio Rodrigues de Araújo == Leonor Pereira do
Barbudo
22. Álvaro Rodrigues de Araújo == Constança da Veiga
de Azevedo
23. Gonçalo Álvares/Rodrigues de Araújo
24. Gonçalo Álvares de Araújo == Leonor de Araújo
^^^^^^^^
This was the first who went to Madeira c. 1530, and
from this point on I
follow the Araújos genealogy which has been
published in "Das Artes e da
História da Madeira" by David Ferreira de Gouveia
under the title "Os
Antepassados dos Araújos Madeirenses". until João
Augusto do Nascimento
(1841-1904) my g.g.g. father (* see note in the
end).
Another Araújo-Maia line is:
Maias
1. Abu Nazir == Tortora
2. Fromarico Abunazar
3. Teodoredo Fromarigues == Farégia Froilaz
Velhos (Baiões)
4. Nuno Soares Velho == Ausenda Todereis
5. Soeiro Nunes Velho == Aldonça Nunes de Armentares
6. Nuno Soares Velho == Mayor Pires da Silva (or
Perna)
7. Pedro Nunes Velho == Maria Annes
Turrichões
8. Fernão Pires Turrichão == Teresa Pires Velho
Maldonados/Aldanas
9.Nuno Pires Maldonado == Aldara Fernandes Turrichão
Sottomayor
10. Paio Mendes Sored == Teresa Annes de Meira
11. Gonçalo Pais de Sottomayor == Mayor Garcia de
parada
Andrades
12. Rui Freire de Andrade == Inês Gonçalves de
Sotomayor
13. Nuno Rodrigues Freire de Andrade == Clara
Martins
14. Rui Freire de Andrade == Maria Fernandes de
Meira
Barbudos
15. Bernardim de Barbudo == Isabel de Andrade
Who gave birth to Leonor Pereira do Barbudo, nº21 on
the previous line.
I note that there is a difference of 5 generations
between the two lines.
This is still very previous, as only now I'm
substantiating the data with
stronger evidence and references, as I've been too
busy making the other
branches which don't appear on the Madeira published
genealogies, and
other lines could still appear (namely from the
house of Aldana, which I'm
completing now).
In the waiting list are the Henriques de Noronha,
who may also be related
to the Maias, I don't know yet.
(*) From the genealogies it appears that that branch
has ended there. It
is not true, however, since he had 2 children with a
girl from Calheta,
Joana da Graça de Sousa, my g.g.g. mother and owner
of the History book I
refered.
As an unrelated curiosity I'll add that the
goodfather of the marriage of
their daughter (my great grand mother) Alda da Graça
do Nascimento, was
probably a parent of yours: Oscar Maria de França
Dória, "Chefe Dória",
who was a friend of the family. He was also my grand
mother's christening
goodfather, and his grand daughter (Sara) is still a
good friend of my
mother.
Cheers,
Paulo
--
-darwin-
"I don't care if we're holding 15,000 innocent
people. We're winning the
war."
-- Gen. Wodjakowski to Gen. Karpinski, referring to
Abu Graib
_______________________________________________________
Yahoo! Acesso Grátis - Internet rápida e grátis. Instale o discador agora! http://br.acesso.yahoo.com/
-
Paulo Gomes Jardim
Re: From Maias to Araújos (was: Banu Qas i, Muslim lines, et
On Tue, 12 Oct 2004 06:14:39 +0100, Boulus ad-Darwin
<darwin+usenet@spamcop.net> wrote:
I've now merged the 2 Gonçalos Pais de SotoMaior, giving as mother of Inês
SotoMaior the woman known as Mayor Garcia de Parada, following Felgueiras
Gayo.
I detected another big problem on this lineage, Ines Pires de Ambia.
She could not be daughter of those parents, since apparently she lived 100
years before.
I don't know where to put her, along with another Maria Pires de Ambia
which appear without parents in the Silvas lineage...
These Ambias are a mess in my charts.
--
" Pallida mors aequo pulsat pede pauperum tabernas regumque turres." --
Horacio
<darwin+usenet@spamcop.net> wrote:
Sottomayor
10. Paio Mendes Sored == Ermezenda Nunes Maldonado
11. Gonçalo Pais de Sottomayor == Teresa Annes de Meira
12. Gonçalo Pais de Sottomayor == Mayor Garcia de Parada
There must be some mistake with this Gonçalo, it appears to be
duplicated, and that's what tricked me into jumping him.
I'll have to look into this.
I've now merged the 2 Gonçalos Pais de SotoMaior, giving as mother of Inês
SotoMaior the woman known as Mayor Garcia de Parada, following Felgueiras
Gayo.
I detected another big problem on this lineage, Ines Pires de Ambia.
She could not be daughter of those parents, since apparently she lived 100
years before.
I don't know where to put her, along with another Maria Pires de Ambia
which appear without parents in the Silvas lineage...
These Ambias are a mess in my charts.
--
" Pallida mors aequo pulsat pede pauperum tabernas regumque turres." --
Horacio
-
Francisco Antonio Doria
Re: From Maias to Araújos (was: Banu Qasi, Muslim lines, et
Did you check the lines in Gayo?
fa
--- Paulo Gomes Jardim <darwin+usenet@spamcop.net>
escreveu:
_______________________________________________________
Yahoo! Acesso Grátis - Internet rápida e grátis. Instale o discador agora! http://br.acesso.yahoo.com/
fa
--- Paulo Gomes Jardim <darwin+usenet@spamcop.net>
escreveu:
On Tue, 12 Oct 2004 06:14:39 +0100, Boulus ad-Darwin
darwin+usenet@spamcop.net> wrote:
Sottomayor
10. Paio Mendes Sored == Ermezenda Nunes Maldonado
11. Gonçalo Pais de Sottomayor == Teresa Annes de
Meira
12. Gonçalo Pais de Sottomayor == Mayor Garcia de
Parada
There must be some mistake with this Gonçalo, it
appears to be
duplicated, and that's what tricked me into
jumping him.
I'll have to look into this.
I've now merged the 2 Gonçalos Pais de SotoMaior,
giving as mother of Inês
SotoMaior the woman known as Mayor Garcia de Parada,
following Felgueiras
Gayo.
I detected another big problem on this lineage, Ines
Pires de Ambia.
She could not be daughter of those parents, since
apparently she lived 100
years before.
I don't know where to put her, along with another
Maria Pires de Ambia
which appear without parents in the Silvas
lineage...
These Ambias are a mess in my charts.
--
" Pallida mors aequo pulsat pede pauperum tabernas
regumque turres." --
Horacio
_______________________________________________________
Yahoo! Acesso Grátis - Internet rápida e grátis. Instale o discador agora! http://br.acesso.yahoo.com/
-
Paulo Gomes Jardim
Re: From Maias to Araújos (was: Banu Qas i, Muslim lines, et
On Tue, 12 Oct 2004 18:58:36 +0000 (UTC), Francisco Antonio Doria
<franciscoantoniodoria@yahoo.com.br> wrote:
Yes, this information I've got (second hand, by way of António Castro
website (*)) from Gayo, in the lineages of SotoMaiores (Inês Pires de
Ambia) and Silvas (Maria Pires de Ambia). I also have a *2rd* Maria Pires
de Ambia, refered in the work about the ancestry of the Madeira's Araujos,
this one appears to be daughter of Pedro Pais de Ambia, who is not father
of Inês.
I don't even know yet who this Ambias are, but they appear seldom here and
there.
(*) Perhaps there's a copy of Gayo's works in the Regional Repository at
Funchal. I'll inquire about it next time I go there in my quest for the
forgoten grannies. Do you know if there is a chapter on the Ambias?
--
" Pallida mors aequo pulsat pede pauperum tabernas regumque turres." --
Horacio
<franciscoantoniodoria@yahoo.com.br> wrote:
Did you check the lines in Gayo?
fa
Yes, this information I've got (second hand, by way of António Castro
website (*)) from Gayo, in the lineages of SotoMaiores (Inês Pires de
Ambia) and Silvas (Maria Pires de Ambia). I also have a *2rd* Maria Pires
de Ambia, refered in the work about the ancestry of the Madeira's Araujos,
this one appears to be daughter of Pedro Pais de Ambia, who is not father
of Inês.
I don't even know yet who this Ambias are, but they appear seldom here and
there.
(*) Perhaps there's a copy of Gayo's works in the Regional Repository at
Funchal. I'll inquire about it next time I go there in my quest for the
forgoten grannies. Do you know if there is a chapter on the Ambias?
--
" Pallida mors aequo pulsat pede pauperum tabernas regumque turres." --
Horacio
-
Paulo Gomes Jardim
Re: From Maias to Araújos (was: Banu Qas i, Muslim lines, et
On Tue, 12 Oct 2004 09:07:09 +0000 (UTC), Francisco Antonio Doria
<franciscoantoniodoria@yahoo.com.br> wrote:
I was following Gayo on it, but the Sousao lineage has many incoherencies,
especially in the beginning.
He makes Soeiro Belfaguer son of D. Teudo de Coimbra, something that
doesn't seem very credible.
There's also a misterious Don Soeiro, prince of the Visigodes which
appears as father of Teudo's wife.
And of course, Faião Soares, whomever he was, an alternate father of
Soeiro Belfaguer...
But you're saying they didn't married the 2 daughters of the Maia family
(can we say Banu Maia?
)...?
Paulo
--
" Pallida mors aequo pulsat pede pauperum tabernas regumque turres." --
Horacio
<franciscoantoniodoria@yahoo.com.br> wrote:
Let me see if the lines can be fixed. This `plugging
in' of the Sousão lineage into the Maia descent is
totally wrong.
I was following Gayo on it, but the Sousao lineage has many incoherencies,
especially in the beginning.
He makes Soeiro Belfaguer son of D. Teudo de Coimbra, something that
doesn't seem very credible.
There's also a misterious Don Soeiro, prince of the Visigodes which
appears as father of Teudo's wife.
And of course, Faião Soares, whomever he was, an alternate father of
Soeiro Belfaguer...
But you're saying they didn't married the 2 daughters of the Maia family
(can we say Banu Maia?
Paulo
--
" Pallida mors aequo pulsat pede pauperum tabernas regumque turres." --
Horacio
-
Francisco Antonio Doria
Sousões
The traditional Sousão lineage begins with Soeiro
``Belfaguer.'' Of his origins I suspect that nobody
knows anything.
There are several intermarriages between the Maia
family and the Sousões, one of them through the
Ribadouro descent. Do you have Mattoso's
reconstruction?
fa
--- Paulo Gomes Jardim <darwin+usenet@spamcop.net>
escreveu:
_______________________________________________________
Yahoo! Acesso Grátis - Internet rápida e grátis. Instale o discador agora! http://br.acesso.yahoo.com/
``Belfaguer.'' Of his origins I suspect that nobody
knows anything.
There are several intermarriages between the Maia
family and the Sousões, one of them through the
Ribadouro descent. Do you have Mattoso's
reconstruction?
fa
--- Paulo Gomes Jardim <darwin+usenet@spamcop.net>
escreveu:
On Tue, 12 Oct 2004 09:07:09 +0000 (UTC), Francisco
Antonio Doria
franciscoantoniodoria@yahoo.com.br> wrote:
Let me see if the lines can be fixed. This
`plugging
in' of the Sousão lineage into the Maia descent is
totally wrong.
I was following Gayo on it, but the Sousao lineage
has many incoherencies,
especially in the beginning.
He makes Soeiro Belfaguer son of D. Teudo de
Coimbra, something that
doesn't seem very credible.
There's also a misterious Don Soeiro, prince of the
Visigodes which
appears as father of Teudo's wife.
And of course, Faião Soares, whomever he was, an
alternate father of
Soeiro Belfaguer...
But you're saying they didn't married the 2
daughters of the Maia family
(can we say Banu Maia?)...?
Paulo
--
" Pallida mors aequo pulsat pede pauperum tabernas
regumque turres." --
Horacio
_______________________________________________________
Yahoo! Acesso Grátis - Internet rápida e grátis. Instale o discador agora! http://br.acesso.yahoo.com/
-
Paulo Gomes Jardim
Re: Sousões
On Tue, 12 Oct 2004 23:12:33 +0000 (UTC), Francisco Antonio Doria
<franciscoantoniodoria@yahoo.com.br> wrote:
Thanks, I've now unlinked him from D. Teudo.
Belfaguer is a quite unusual name, as many of the names which appear on
the early individuals of that lineage. They sound like Basque, perhaps
they are from that place.
No, and from what I see Genea is not using that source.
Do you have any ideia on how I can see it?
(I've made a quick search on google, but nothing sound has come out)
--
" Pallida mors aequo pulsat pede pauperum tabernas regumque turres." --
Horacio
<franciscoantoniodoria@yahoo.com.br> wrote:
The traditional Sousão lineage begins with Soeiro
``Belfaguer.'' Of his origins I suspect that nobody
knows anything.
Thanks, I've now unlinked him from D. Teudo.
Belfaguer is a quite unusual name, as many of the names which appear on
the early individuals of that lineage. They sound like Basque, perhaps
they are from that place.
There are several intermarriages between the Maia
family and the Sousões, one of them through the
Ribadouro descent. Do you have Mattoso's
reconstruction?
No, and from what I see Genea is not using that source.
Do you have any ideia on how I can see it?
(I've made a quick search on google, but nothing sound has come out)
--
" Pallida mors aequo pulsat pede pauperum tabernas regumque turres." --
Horacio
-
Francisco Antonio Doria
Re: Sousões
Paulo,
I don't know where Belfaguer comes from. It reminds me
of Nuno ``Belchites,'' where Belchites may be from
some distorted patronymic or from a locative.
See more comments below.
--- Paulo Gomes Jardim <darwin+usenet@spamcop.net>
escreveu:
José Mattoso published in 1981 (reprinted with notes
in 1985) a book of essays on the Portuguese nobility,
10th-14th centuries. This book includes his
reconstructions of the comital families and of the
five great lineages (Sousões and Braganções only
appear incidentally).
_______________________________________________________
Yahoo! Acesso Grátis - Internet rápida e grátis. Instale o discador agora! http://br.acesso.yahoo.com/
I don't know where Belfaguer comes from. It reminds me
of Nuno ``Belchites,'' where Belchites may be from
some distorted patronymic or from a locative.
See more comments below.
--- Paulo Gomes Jardim <darwin+usenet@spamcop.net>
escreveu:
On Tue, 12 Oct 2004 23:12:33 +0000 (UTC), Francisco
Antonio Doria
franciscoantoniodoria@yahoo.com.br> wrote:
The traditional Sousão lineage begins with Soeiro
``Belfaguer.'' Of his origins I suspect that
nobody
knows anything.
Thanks, I've now unlinked him from D. Teudo.
Belfaguer is a quite unusual name, as many of the
names which appear on
the early individuals of that lineage. They sound
like Basque, perhaps
they are from that place.
There are several intermarriages between the Maia
family and the Sousões, one of them through the
Ribadouro descent. Do you have Mattoso's
reconstruction?
No, and from what I see Genea is not using that
source.
Do you have any ideia on how I can see it?
(I've made a quick search on google, but nothing
sound has come out)
José Mattoso published in 1981 (reprinted with notes
in 1985) a book of essays on the Portuguese nobility,
10th-14th centuries. This book includes his
reconstructions of the comital families and of the
five great lineages (Sousões and Braganções only
appear incidentally).
--
" Pallida mors aequo pulsat pede pauperum tabernas
regumque turres." --
Horacio
_______________________________________________________
Yahoo! Acesso Grátis - Internet rápida e grátis. Instale o discador agora! http://br.acesso.yahoo.com/