Surnames

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Leo van de Pas

Surnames

Legg inn av Leo van de Pas » 04 okt 2004 00:59:02

Does anyone know when "surnames" started to emerge? The concept of a House, I think, was used quite early, but did they not refer to "the House of xyz" which mostly was named after the territory this family ruled over? Did the earliest Counts of Hainault, Flanders, Holland have anything that is comparable to a surname? It would help me to explain this better to someone who I believe has a misconception and is convinced that the surname of the Counts of Flanders is Baudouin.
Many thanks
Leo van de Pas
Canberra, Australia

Stewart Baldwin

Re: Surnames

Legg inn av Stewart Baldwin » 04 okt 2004 00:59:03

On Sun, 3 Oct 2004 20:59:02 +0000 (UTC), leovdpas@netspeed.com.au
("Leo van de Pas") wrote:

Does anyone know when "surnames" started to emerge?
The concept of a House, I think, was used quite early,
but did they not refer to "the House of xyz" which
mostly was named after the territory this family ruled
over? Did the earliest Counts of Hainault, Flanders,
Holland have anything that is comparable to a surname?
It would help me to explain this better to someone who
I believe has a misconception and is convinced that
the surname of the Counts of Flanders is Baudouin.

Modern historians will sometimes mention the "Baldwins" (or Baudouins)
of Flanders or the "Reginars" of Hainaut, but they are not considering
them to be surnames when they do this, but rather it is a convenient
way of referring to the dynasty in question, similar to the Conradins
or Liudolfings of Germany. Unfortunately, people who do not
understand the difference between a dynasty and a surname will often
misconstrue such references and put them in their databases. Surnames
arose in different places at different times, but the earliest counts
of Flanders and Hainaut have no surnames in contemporary records.

Stewart Baldwin

Chris Phillips

Re: Surnames

Legg inn av Chris Phillips » 04 okt 2004 10:13:49

Millerfairfield wrote:
I don't know whether we can add a class of "devotional" names, such as
Sinclair (St Clare"). Possibly such names refer to places. Senlis for
example was
originally St Elizabeth.

I'm not sure about the last bit. According to Complete Peerage vol. 6, p.
640, "the form St Liz (or de Sancto Licio) seems to be an attempt to provide
an etymology for Senlis (Silva necta)."

Chris Phillips

Gjest

Re: Surnames

Legg inn av Gjest » 04 okt 2004 13:07:25

Leo,
I hope you received my posts.
Surnames -
Regarding the landowners -this is difficult. Take for instance the Barons of
Montmorency. Here the title became a 'patronymic' through the fact that the
house owned this lordship for several centuries - it was indivisble with the
current owner - thus a Pierre, though not of the immediate senior line was
called Pierre des Sgrs de Montmorency, Pierre of the Lords of Montmorency. The
name of the Lordship seems to have become synonymous with a patronymic c
1150-1200.
In my family, the patronymic, again synonymous with a lordship of the name,
was, it seems, adopted shortly after the filiation was established c1200, here
documents invariably call the holder Bertrandis dominus de Orioli, miles, or
Bertrandis Orioli, dominus de/Suprayndic de Orioli.
regards
Peter

Francisco Antonio Doria

Re: Surnames

Legg inn av Francisco Antonio Doria » 04 okt 2004 13:16:00

We have a complicated system, where first names are
transmitted alongside with surnames.

My first name, Francisco, comes down along the
Acciaioli since at least the 14th century (the first
Francesco Acciaioli appears in the late 13th century).


My second name should be the `central' name; the line
of Antonios begins in Portugal in the early 16th
century, and comes down to me in the agnatic line -
I'm 11th in the direct line.

Then come the surnames... It's a whole different
system, which combines in a more or less complicated
way with the first-name transmission.

fa

--- PDeloriol@aol.com escreveu:
Leo,
I hope you received my posts.
Surnames -
Regarding the landowners -this is difficult. Take
for instance the Barons of
Montmorency. Here the title became a 'patronymic'
through the fact that the
house owned this lordship for several centuries - it
was indivisble with the
current owner - thus a Pierre, though not of the
immediate senior line was
called Pierre des Sgrs de Montmorency, Pierre of the
Lords of Montmorency. The
name of the Lordship seems to have become synonymous
with a patronymic c
1150-1200.
In my family, the patronymic, again synonymous with
a lordship of the name,
was, it seems, adopted shortly after the filiation
was established c1200, here
documents invariably call the holder Bertrandis
dominus de Orioli, miles, or
Bertrandis Orioli, dominus de/Suprayndic de Orioli.

regards
Peter







_______________________________________________________
Yahoo! Acesso Grátis - Internet rápida e grátis. Instale o discador agora! http://br.acesso.yahoo.com/

Todd A. Farmerie

Re: Surnames

Legg inn av Todd A. Farmerie » 04 okt 2004 21:24:23

Leo van de Pas wrote:
Does anyone know when "surnames" started to emerge? The concept of a House, I think, was used quite early, but did they not refer to "the House of xyz" which mostly was named after the territory this family ruled over? Did the earliest Counts of Hainault, Flanders, Holland have anything that is comparable to a surname? It would help me to explain this better to someone who I believe has a misconception and is convinced that the surname of the Counts of Flanders is Baudouin.


I will just add to Stewart's comments that the use of Baldwin/Boudouin
as a surname for the Flanders Counts has been specifically used by
various writers bearing the Baldwin surname (Stewart not among them) as
a prop to justify tracing their own male line from these Counts (just as
they are sometimes given the surname "Forester" by genealogists who,
coincidentally, bear that surname).

taf

Bronwen Edwards

Re: Surnames

Legg inn av Bronwen Edwards » 07 okt 2004 09:23:31

I know that Brazil uses the Portuguese language, but I wonder when the
Spanish custom of using the father's and the mother's names together
separated by *y* (and) came into use? Bronwen


franciscoantoniodoria@yahoo.com.br (Francisco Antonio Doria) wrote in message news:<20041004091553.58756.qmail@web41703.mail.yahoo.com>...
We have a complicated system, where first names are
transmitted alongside with surnames.

My first name, Francisco, comes down along the
Acciaioli since at least the 14th century (the first
Francesco Acciaioli appears in the late 13th century).


My second name should be the `central' name; the line
of Antonios begins in Portugal in the early 16th
century, and comes down to me in the agnatic line -
I'm 11th in the direct line.

Then come the surnames... It's a whole different
system, which combines in a more or less complicated
way with the first-name transmission.

fa

--- PDeloriol@aol.com escreveu:
Leo,
I hope you received my posts.
Surnames -
Regarding the landowners -this is difficult. Take
for instance the Barons of
Montmorency. Here the title became a 'patronymic'
through the fact that the
house owned this lordship for several centuries - it
was indivisble with the
current owner - thus a Pierre, though not of the
immediate senior line was
called Pierre des Sgrs de Montmorency, Pierre of the
Lords of Montmorency. The
name of the Lordship seems to have become synonymous
with a patronymic c
1150-1200.
In my family, the patronymic, again synonymous with
a lordship of the name,
was, it seems, adopted shortly after the filiation
was established c1200, here
documents invariably call the holder Bertrandis
dominus de Orioli, miles, or
Bertrandis Orioli, dominus de/Suprayndic de Orioli.

regards
Peter







_______________________________________________________
Yahoo! Acesso Grátis - Internet rápida e grátis. Instale o discador agora! http://br.acesso.yahoo.com/

Francisco Antonio Doria

Re: Surnames

Legg inn av Francisco Antonio Doria » 07 okt 2004 14:40:32

Dear Bronwen,

It's a late usage, to my knowledge; after the 18th
century. But I'll ask some cognoscenti and come back
to you.

Best, chico

--- Bronwen Edwards <lostcooper@yahoo.com> escreveu:
I know that Brazil uses the Portuguese language, but
I wonder when the
Spanish custom of using the father's and the
mother's names together
separated by *y* (and) came into use? Bronwen


franciscoantoniodoria@yahoo.com.br (Francisco
Antonio Doria) wrote in message

news:<20041004091553.58756.qmail@web41703.mail.yahoo.com>...
We have a complicated system, where first names
are
transmitted alongside with surnames.

My first name, Francisco, comes down along the
Acciaioli since at least the 14th century (the
first
Francesco Acciaioli appears in the late 13th
century).


My second name should be the `central' name; the
line
of Antonios begins in Portugal in the early 16th
century, and comes down to me in the agnatic line
-
I'm 11th in the direct line.

Then come the surnames... It's a whole different
system, which combines in a more or less
complicated
way with the first-name transmission.

fa

--- PDeloriol@aol.com escreveu:
Leo,
I hope you received my posts.
Surnames -
Regarding the landowners -this is difficult.
Take
for instance the Barons of
Montmorency. Here the title became a
'patronymic'
through the fact that the
house owned this lordship for several centuries
- it
was indivisble with the
current owner - thus a Pierre, though not of the
immediate senior line was
called Pierre des Sgrs de Montmorency, Pierre of
the
Lords of Montmorency. The
name of the Lordship seems to have become
synonymous
with a patronymic c
1150-1200.
In my family, the patronymic, again synonymous
with
a lordship of the name,
was, it seems, adopted shortly after the
filiation
was established c1200, here
documents invariably call the holder Bertrandis
dominus de Orioli, miles, or
Bertrandis Orioli, dominus de/Suprayndic de
Orioli.

regards
Peter









_______________________________________________________

Yahoo! Acesso Grátis - Internet rápida e grátis.
Instale o discador agora!
http://br.acesso.yahoo.com/







_______________________________________________________
Yahoo! Acesso Grátis - Internet rápida e grátis. Instale o discador agora! http://br.acesso.yahoo.com/

Esteban Trento

Re: Surnames

Legg inn av Esteban Trento » 07 okt 2004 21:11:37

lostcooper@yahoo.com (Bronwen Edwards) wrote in message news:<54ca55f1.0410062323.2d04f530@posting.google.com>...
I know that Brazil uses the Portuguese language, but I wonder when the
Spanish custom of using the father's and the mother's names together
separated by *y* (and) came into use? Bronwen


I'm not 100 per cent sure, but this is the explanation I've found:

Article 48 of the Law of the Civil Register (17 June 1870) established
that all Spaniards should be inscribed with their name and the surname
of its parents. The same year, the Code of Penal Law established the
crime of usage of supposed name ("nombre supuesto") which in practice
obliged to use only the surnames inscribed at the Civil Register.
The Law of the Civil Register of 8 June 1957 established that it must
be used both surnames, from father and mother, with the conjunction
"y" (and). It is noted that common usage ussually gets rid of the "y".
To change or unite two surnames (to make a compound surname) the
procedure stated that it has to be done according to the rules of the
Ministry of Justice.
Later changes in that law alow to change orders in maternal and
paternal surnames if the person whishes when he or she reaches the
majority of age.

J.L.Fernandez-Blanco

Re: Surnames

Legg inn av J.L.Fernandez-Blanco » 07 okt 2004 21:18:57

lostcooper@yahoo.com (Bronwen Edwards) wrote in message news:<54ca55f1.0410062323.2d04f530@posting.google.com>...
I know that Brazil uses the Portuguese language, but I wonder when the
Spanish custom of using the father's and the mother's names together
separated by *y* (and) came into use? Bronwen

In Spain this "costume" is very late. The law of 17 June 1870

creating the "Registro Civil" of Spain established that all
people will be registered with their names followed by the
names of both grandfathers (paternal and maternal).
The use of the conjunction "y" is much later. It became
regulated by law of 8 June 1957.
Until the mid XIX century the use of surnames in many
regions of Spain (especially in the north) can be described as
one of absolute chaos.
Just to give an idea: at the end of the XVII century one of my
ancestors, Pedro de Monasterio married Francisca Salgado. Their
six children were named:
-Alonso Gundín (name of the paternal grandfather)
-Lucía de Segade (name of one of the great grandmothers)
-Pedro de Monasterio (like his father)
-Juan Mariño (name of a paternal ancestor from the XV century!)
-José de Nóvoa (name of one of the brother of one of the maternal
great great grandfathers)
-Inés de Camba (name of one of the great great grandmothers).
This same chaotic situation can be observed in all the generations
of any Spanish family between the XV and the early XIX centuries.
Of course, this is the worst nightmare of Spanish genealogists.
Regards,
J.L.Fernández Blanco

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