Somerled, recently discussed here, married Ragnhild, daughter
of Olaf III Kleining, King of Man. There has long been uncertainty
as to Ragnhild's mother. The Red Book of Clanranald says
Ragnhild was the legitimate daughter of King Olaf and transmitted
a claim to Man to her descendants. The Manx chronicle says she
was daughter of Olaf by a concubine. If Ragnhild's mother was
Olaf's wife Ingibiorg, daughter of Hakon Paulsson, Jarl of Orkney,
then Somerled's descendants can claim a host of colorful Nordic
ancestors such as Thorfinn Skull-Cleaver, Ragnvald the Wise,
Harald Fairhair, Ketil Flatnose, Grim the Ram, and Aud Ketilsdotter
(called Djupaudga, the Extremely Rich, or Djupaudga, the Deeply
Wise), said to be the first recorded Norse convert to Christianity,
who settled in Iceland c. 875. See generally CP vol. 10 app. A,
"Norse Predecessors of the Earls of Orkney," and ES 2:79-80,
105-09.
The consensus in the Scottish literature has been that Ragnhild
was probably but not certainly Ingibiorg's daughter. See W.D.H.
Sellar, "Hebridean Sea Kings: The Successors of Somerled, 1164-
1315," in Alba: Celtic Scotland in the Middle Ages (ed. Edward J.
Cowan & R. Andrew McDonald, 2000) pp. 187, 191, 192, 197-98;
John Marsden, Somerled and the Emergence of Gaelic Scotland
(2000) pp. 69-70, 166.
In June of this year, at my 50th college reunion, I learned that my
classmate Bob Cook is a professor at the University of Iceland, and
mentioned to him that I am descended from Aud IF Ragnhild was
Ingibiorg's daughter. After Bob got back to Iceland he was kind enough
to do some research, and came up with a footnote (page 274 footnote
3) to Finnbogi Gudmundsson's edition of the Orkneyinga Saga
(Reykjavik 1965). The footnote quotes from a ms. called Holm, Isl. 39
fol. papp., in the Icelandic collection of the Royal Library in
Stockholm,
which contains a text of the Saga copied in 1615 from a ms. of about
1300 which was destroyed in the Copenhagen fire of 1728. Bob says
that the Holm, Isl. ms. is considered to have great authority because
of the early date of the ms. from which it was copied. The footnote in
question quotes a passage from this document which says: "Ragnhildis
moder vaar Ingeborg Hagen Jarlis Powelssons daatter."
I wrote Professor Sellar, with whom I have corresponded in the past,
telling him about this and asking if it did not greatly strengthen the
case.
He replied that he had not known of this source and that he finds it
"exciting."
Somerled's mother-in-law
Moderator: MOD_nyhetsgrupper
-
Stewart Baldwin
Re: Somerled's mother-in-law
On Tue, 28 Sep 2004 16:09:19 +0000 (UTC), bclagett@cov.com ("Clagett,
Brice") wrote:
Olaf's son Godred was the son of Aufrica, daughter of Fergus of
Galloway (probable son-in-law of Henry I). This is stated by the
Chronicle of Man and confirmed by Robert de Torigny, who called Godred
a cousin of King Henry II, a realtionship that would be hard to
explain unless the Chronicle of Man is right on this point. The
Chronicle of Man is a very biased source (anti-Somerled), so it need
not be taken at face value in demoting Somerled's wife to a bastard.
An important point would be whether or not the source you mention also
calls Godred a son of Ingibjorg (as some later Norse sources do). If
so, it would undermine the reliability of this source. If this source
only makes Somerled's wife a daughter of Ingibjorg, and it is only
later that the Norse sources add Godred to the list of Ingibjorg's
children, then the latter would have a reasonable explanation
(confusion, or jumping to conclusions), and the source you mention
would have more credibility.
Stewart Baldwin
Brice") wrote:
Somerled, recently discussed here, married Ragnhild, daughter
of Olaf III Kleining, King of Man. There has long been uncertainty
as to Ragnhild's mother. The Red Book of Clanranald says
Ragnhild was the legitimate daughter of King Olaf and transmitted
a claim to Man to her descendants. The Manx chronicle says she
was daughter of Olaf by a concubine. If Ragnhild's mother was
Olaf's wife Ingibiorg, daughter of Hakon Paulsson, Jarl of Orkney,
then Somerled's descendants can claim a host of colorful Nordic
ancestors such as Thorfinn Skull-Cleaver, Ragnvald the Wise,
Harald Fairhair, Ketil Flatnose, Grim the Ram, and Aud Ketilsdotter
(called Djupaudga, the Extremely Rich, or Djupaudga, the Deeply
Wise), said to be the first recorded Norse convert to Christianity,
who settled in Iceland c. 875. See generally CP vol. 10 app. A,
"Norse Predecessors of the Earls of Orkney," and ES 2:79-80,
105-09.
The consensus in the Scottish literature has been that Ragnhild
was probably but not certainly Ingibiorg's daughter. See W.D.H.
Sellar, "Hebridean Sea Kings: The Successors of Somerled, 1164-
1315," in Alba: Celtic Scotland in the Middle Ages (ed. Edward J.
Cowan & R. Andrew McDonald, 2000) pp. 187, 191, 192, 197-98;
John Marsden, Somerled and the Emergence of Gaelic Scotland
(2000) pp. 69-70, 166.
In June of this year, at my 50th college reunion, I learned that my
classmate Bob Cook is a professor at the University of Iceland, and
mentioned to him that I am descended from Aud IF Ragnhild was
Ingibiorg's daughter. After Bob got back to Iceland he was kind enough
to do some research, and came up with a footnote (page 274 footnote
3) to Finnbogi Gudmundsson's edition of the Orkneyinga Saga
(Reykjavik 1965). The footnote quotes from a ms. called Holm, Isl. 39
fol. papp., in the Icelandic collection of the Royal Library in
Stockholm,
which contains a text of the Saga copied in 1615 from a ms. of about
1300 which was destroyed in the Copenhagen fire of 1728. Bob says
that the Holm, Isl. ms. is considered to have great authority because
of the early date of the ms. from which it was copied. The footnote in
question quotes a passage from this document which says: "Ragnhildis
moder vaar Ingeborg Hagen Jarlis Powelssons daatter."
I wrote Professor Sellar, with whom I have corresponded in the past,
telling him about this and asking if it did not greatly strengthen the
case.
He replied that he had not known of this source and that he finds it
"exciting."
Olaf's son Godred was the son of Aufrica, daughter of Fergus of
Galloway (probable son-in-law of Henry I). This is stated by the
Chronicle of Man and confirmed by Robert de Torigny, who called Godred
a cousin of King Henry II, a realtionship that would be hard to
explain unless the Chronicle of Man is right on this point. The
Chronicle of Man is a very biased source (anti-Somerled), so it need
not be taken at face value in demoting Somerled's wife to a bastard.
An important point would be whether or not the source you mention also
calls Godred a son of Ingibjorg (as some later Norse sources do). If
so, it would undermine the reliability of this source. If this source
only makes Somerled's wife a daughter of Ingibjorg, and it is only
later that the Norse sources add Godred to the list of Ingibjorg's
children, then the latter would have a reasonable explanation
(confusion, or jumping to conclusions), and the source you mention
would have more credibility.
Stewart Baldwin
-
Doug McDonald
Re: Somerled's mother-in-law
Stewart Baldwin wrote:
intermediate stuff cut for space purposes
Has anyone (Brice) determined this point?
Doug McDonald
On Tue, 28 Sep 2004 16:09:19 +0000 (UTC), bclagett@cov.com ("Clagett,
Brice") wrote:
Somerled, recently discussed here, married Ragnhild, daughter
of Olaf III Kleining, King of Man.
intermediate stuff cut for space purposes
He replied that he had not known of this source and that he finds it
"exciting."
Olaf's son Godred was the son of Aufrica, daughter of Fergus of
Galloway (probable son-in-law of Henry I). This is stated by the
Chronicle of Man and confirmed by Robert de Torigny, who called Godred
a cousin of King Henry II, a realtionship that would be hard to
explain unless the Chronicle of Man is right on this point. The
Chronicle of Man is a very biased source (anti-Somerled), so it need
not be taken at face value in demoting Somerled's wife to a bastard.
An important point would be whether or not the source you mention also
calls Godred a son of Ingibjorg (as some later Norse sources do). If
so, it would undermine the reliability of this source. If this source
only makes Somerled's wife a daughter of Ingibjorg, and it is only
later that the Norse sources add Godred to the list of Ingibjorg's
children, then the latter would have a reasonable explanation
(confusion, or jumping to conclusions), and the source you mention
would have more credibility.
Stewart Baldwin
Has anyone (Brice) determined this point?
Doug McDonald