iso ancestry of Thomas Tyldesley, b. ca. 1425, of Wardley, L

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James Ebel

iso ancestry of Thomas Tyldesley, b. ca. 1425, of Wardley, L

Legg inn av James Ebel » 25 sep 2004 14:43:58

Here goes my first post to this group:

I am looking for the ancestry of Thomas Tyldesley, of Wardley, Lancs.,
b. say 1425, whose daughter, Constance, married Hugh Parr of Kempnough
according to a Parr pedigree. [Top. & Gen. 3:359] I thought perhaps
Thomas might be found in John Lunn's book, "The Tyldesley's of
Lancashire: The Rise and Fall of a Great Patrician Family", published
ca. 1966. I'll be checking Baines's "History of Lancashire" when my
CD copy arrives. Any help would be greatly appreciated.

----James

Gordon Kirkemo

RE: iso ancestry of Thomas Tyldesley, b. ca. 1425, of Wardle

Legg inn av Gordon Kirkemo » 26 sep 2004 05:36:03

James,

I can provide a highly speculative answer to your query. I would encourage
you to obtain a copy of "The Ancestry of Mary Isaac" by Walter Goodwin
Davis. Mr. Davis provides a great deal of information regarding a number of
families, and a passage that suggests a connection for Thomas Tyldesley. If
correct, perhaps he can then be connected to the Tyldesleys found in your
other sources.

On page 310, a description is provided for Margaret de Worsely. I will
provide an edited summary of that description:

"In November, 1330, she [Margaret] was abducted and married to Thurstan de
Tyldesley, both of them of 'tender age.'...."

"At Michaelmas, 1352, Thurstan and Margaret de Tyldesley brought forward a
claim to the manor of Hindley against Sir Robert de Langton, and again the
case went against the Worsley interest."

"Margaret de Tyldesley was living at an advanced age when on March 20, 2
Henry IV (1400/1), John le Mascy of Tatton, knight, Thomas le Mascy, son of
the said John, and Geoffrey, brother of the said Thomas, released to
Margaret, daughter of Jordan de Worsely and widow of Thurstan, son of
Richard de Tyldesley, and to Thomas de Tyldesley, her son, any claim which
they had on land called Wordelegh (Wardley) in the vill of Workeslegh which
had been descended to Margaret from her father, Jordan de Workeslegh....."
A footnote for this referred to the 33rd Report of the Deputy Keeper of the
Public Records, Appendix, p.2.

I believe, but cannot yet prove, that Thomas (son of Thurstan and Margaret)
is the same Thomas as the father of Constance (wife of Hugh Parr). The
chronology seems to work, and this could explain the introduction of the
name Thurstan (son of Hugh and Constance Parr) to the Parr line. I suspect
a more thorough examination of the descent of the properties involved would
confirm or disprove this speculation.

If, and this is speculation, this is the correct Thomas Tyldesley, then his
line would appear to be:

1. Thomas de Tyldesley (d. aft 20 Mar 1400/1) m. unknown was the son of:
2. Thurstan de Tyldesley (d. bef 20 Mar 1400/1) m. (Nov 1330) Margaret de
Worsley was the son of:
3. Richard de Tyldesley m. unknown

Further:
2. Margaret de Worsley (d. aft 20 Mar 1400/1) m. (Nov 1330) Thurstan de
Tyldesley was the daughter of:
3. Jordan de Worsley m. unknown was the son of:
4. Richard de Worsley m. (1) unknown was the son of:
5. Geoffrey de Worsley m. Agnes _____ was the son of:
6. Richard de Worsley m. Maud ______ was the son of:
7. Elias de Worsley m. unknown

I would be very interested in knowing how your line descends through the
Parr family. I have a descent I found in a secondary source that I've been
unable to verify, and I would appreciate anything further you might have for
the following generations. Consider contacting me off-list if that would be
more comfortable for you.

I hope you will find this useful and I encourage you to get a copy of the
book by Mr. Davis.

Sincerely,
Gordon Kirkemo


-----Original Message-----
From: James Ebel [mailto:djamesebel@aol.com]
Sent: Saturday, September 25, 2004 5:44 AM
To: GEN-MEDIEVAL-L@rootsweb.com
Subject: iso ancestry of Thomas Tyldesley, b. ca. 1425, of Wardley, Lancs.

Here goes my first post to this group:

I am looking for the ancestry of Thomas Tyldesley, of Wardley, Lancs.,
b. say 1425, whose daughter, Constance, married Hugh Parr of Kempnough
according to a Parr pedigree. [Top. & Gen. 3:359] I thought perhaps
Thomas might be found in John Lunn's book, "The Tyldesley's of
Lancashire: The Rise and Fall of a Great Patrician Family", published
ca. 1966. I'll be checking Baines's "History of Lancashire" when my
CD copy arrives. Any help would be greatly appreciated.

----James

Sutliff

Re: iso ancestry of Thomas Tyldesley, b. ca. 1425, of Wardle

Legg inn av Sutliff » 27 sep 2004 23:45:49

The Tyldesleys of Wardley are discussed in Lunn's book previously cited (pp.
33-40).Unquestionably Thomas Tyldesley, son of Thurstan and Margaret cannot
be father of Constance as he died 21 October 1410. He left a widow Joan and
his other heir was his brother Hugh. His mother Margaret was still alive at
that date. Apparently he left no issue or no surviving issue as none are
mentioned.

His brother Hugh (who inherited Wardley) was born circa 1370 (which makes
him a very late child born to his parents; as Henry Tyldesley took Margaret
Worsley by force on 7 November 1331; she must have been quite young). Hugh
died in 1435. His wife's was named Aleson.

Hugh's son Thurstan (born 1424) succeeded and still alive in 1486. He was
succeeded by Thomas Tyldesley who lived until 1503, but Lunn does not state
if Thomas was Thurstan's son or brother.

Hope this helps

Henry Sutliff

""Gordon Kirkemo"" <kirkemo@comcast.net> wrote in message
news:JNEBIPBDPPDCGBKMKHOGCEPBEKAA.kirkemo@comcast.net...
<snip>>
"Margaret de Tyldesley was living at an advanced age when on March 20, 2
Henry IV (1400/1), John le Mascy of Tatton, knight, Thomas le Mascy, of
the said John, and Geoffrey, brother of the said Thomas, released to
Margaret, daughter of Jordan de Worsely and widow of Thurstan, son of
Richard de Tyldesley, and to Thomas de Tyldesley, her son, any claim which
they had on land called Wordelegh (Wardley) in the vill of Workeslegh
which
had been descended to Margaret from her father, Jordan de Workeslegh....."
A footnote for this referred to the 33rd Report of the Deputy Keeper of
the
Public Records, Appendix, p.2.

I believe, but cannot yet prove, that Thomas (son of Thurstan and
Margaret)
is the same Thomas as the father of Constance (wife of Hugh Parr). The
chronology seems to work, and this could explain the introduction of the
name Thurstan (son of Hugh and Constance Parr) to the Parr line. I
suspect
a more thorough examination of the descent of the properties involved
would
confirm or disprove this speculation.

If, and this is speculation, this is the correct Thomas Tyldesley, then
his
line would appear to be:

1. Thomas de Tyldesley (d. aft 20 Mar 1400/1) m. unknown was the son of:
2. Thurstan de Tyldesley (d. bef 20 Mar 1400/1) m. (Nov 1330) Margaret de
Worsley was the son of:
3. Richard de Tyldesley m. unknown

Further:
2. Margaret de Worsley (d. aft 20 Mar 1400/1) m. (Nov 1330) Thurstan de
Tyldesley was the daughter of:
3. Jordan de Worsley m. unknown was the son of:
4. Richard de Worsley m. (1) unknown was the son of:
5. Geoffrey de Worsley m. Agnes _____ was the son of:
6. Richard de Worsley m. Maud ______ was the son of:
7. Elias de Worsley m. unknown

I would be very interested in knowing how your line descends through the
Parr family. I have a descent I found in a secondary source that I've
been
unable to verify, and I would appreciate anything further you might have
for
the following generations. Consider contacting me off-list if that would
be
more comfortable for you.

I hope you will find this useful and I encourage you to get a copy of the
book by Mr. Davis.

Sincerely,
Gordon Kirkemo


-----Original Message-----
From: James Ebel [mailto:djamesebel@aol.com]
Sent: Saturday, September 25, 2004 5:44 AM
To: GEN-MEDIEVAL-L@rootsweb.com
Subject: iso ancestry of Thomas Tyldesley, b. ca. 1425, of Wardley, Lancs.

Here goes my first post to this group:

I am looking for the ancestry of Thomas Tyldesley, of Wardley, Lancs.,
b. say 1425, whose daughter, Constance, married Hugh Parr of Kempnough
according to a Parr pedigree. [Top. & Gen. 3:359] I thought perhaps
Thomas might be found in John Lunn's book, "The Tyldesley's of
Lancashire: The Rise and Fall of a Great Patrician Family", published
ca. 1966. I'll be checking Baines's "History of Lancashire" when my
CD copy arrives. Any help would be greatly appreciated.

----James

James Ebel

Re: iso ancestry of Thomas Tyldesley, b. ca. 1425, of Wardle

Legg inn av James Ebel » 28 sep 2004 04:32:30

Gordon,

Thank you for the informative response to my query. I have found
some additional information on the Tyldesleys, which together the
information you quote from The Ancestry of Mary Isaac, denoted herein
as [AMI], helps define the picture more clearly, although, for now,
it still remains a bit murky for about a century.

Below are two Tyldesley pedigrees: one from the 1567 Visitation of
Lancashire, [VL.1567], the other from the 1613 Visitation, [VL.1613].
They both contain the marriage of Thurston Tyldesley to Margaret
Worsley which you described in your response to my query. Note that
son Thomas of this marriage died s. p. according to both pedigrees,
and that the Tyldesley line continues via second son, Hugh. Since,
according your quotation from [AMI], the marriage of Margaret W.
and Thurston T. in Nov 1330 occurred when both were of "tender age",
we may roughly estimate that Hugh, second son, was born in say 1345.

After this Hugh, the two pedigrees diverge. [VL.1567] has Hugh and
the Thomas Tyldesley who married a Radcliffe differing by two genera-
tions (i.e., 7-5), whereas [VL.1613] has them differing by four genera-
tions (i.e., 8-4).

Let us now roughly estimate a birth year for the Thomas T. who married
a Radcliffe: This Thomas died in 1495. His son and heir had a son and
heir who was born in 1511. Therefore this Thomas may have been born in
say 1460. Additionally, based on [FOS] and [AR7], his wife was Anne
Radcliffe, the fourth child of a marriage which occurred in 1443.
Therefore, she may have been born in say 1455, which is at least moderately
consistent with her husband's estimated year of birth.

The births of this Thomas and the above Hugh are thus separated by roughly
120 years, making the 1613 pedigree, with a four generation difference,
the better fit of the two.

My current "best guess" descent is therefore the following:

1. Thurston Tyldesley m. in Nov 1330 Margaret Worseley
i. Thomas Tyldesley died s.p.
2. ii. Hugh Tyldesley (b. say 1345), second son
3. Thurston Tyldesley perhaps m. ____ Keighleigh
4. Thomas Tyldesley
5. Thurston Tyldesley m. _____ Trafford
6. Thomas Tyldesley (b. say 1465) m. Anne Radcliffe
7. Thurston Tyldesley m1. Parnell Shakerley, m2. Jane Langton

Now we come to the question of which of the above Thomas Tyldesleys
works best as the father of Constance, wife of Hugh Parr. My previous
estimate of his birth year of say 1425 (which was rough, based on a
very sketchy Parr pedigree) does not does not fit neatly into the above
hypothetical descent. However, given everything, I would guess that
the obscure number 4 Thomas is our man.

By the way, Gordon, I am working on this line through immigrant ancestor,
Henry Gregory, whose gg-grandmother was Dorothy Parr, daughter of Constance
Tyldesley, according to a Parr pedigree.

Thanks for the info. Hopefully we will soon have more.

----James

Sources:
_____________________________
From Chetham Soc., O.S., 81:44,
Visitation of Lancashire by William Flower, 1567, denoted [VL.1567]:

Tildesley of Wardley

1. Henry Tyldesley of Tyldesley, co Lancaster, ar.
2. Henry Tyldesley, third sonne of Henry
3. Richard Tyldesley, sonne and heire
4. Thurstone Tyldesley, sonne and heire
m. [Margret, dau. and heir to Jordan Worceley, L. of Wardley]
5. i. Hugh Tyldesley, sonne and heire of Thurston
ii. [Thomas Tildesley, seargant at law, sans.]
6. Thurston Tyldesley of Wordley, co. Lancaster, ar., sonne and heire
to Hugh
m. dau. of ... Keighleigh of Keighleigh, co. Lancaster, ar.
7. Thomas Tyldesley of Wordley, ar.
m. Anne, dau. of William Ratcliff of Ordsall, co. Lancaster, ar.
8. Thurston Tyldesley of Wordley, ar.
m1. Parnell, dau. of Geoffrey Shakerley of Shakerley, within Tyldesley,
co Lancaster, ar.
m2. Jane, dau. of Sir Rauf Langton of Newton, co. Lancaster, knt.,
second wyf
______________________________
From Chetham Soc., O.S., 82:101,
Visitation of Lancashire by Richard St. George, 1613, denoted [VL.1613]:

Tyldesley

1. Rich. Tyldesley, lord of Tyldesley, co. Lancaster, anno 10 Ed. 1
2. Thomas Tyldesley
3. Thurstan Tyldesley
m. Margaret, dau. and heire of Jordan Worsley of Wardley, esq.
i. Tho. Tyldesley, serjeant at Lawe to King H. 4, s.p.
4. ii. Hugh Tyldesley, 2 sonne.
5. Thurstan Tyldesley
6. Thomas Tyldesley
7. Thurstan Tyldesley
m. ... dau. of Sir Edm. Trafford, knt.
8. Thomas Tyldesley
m. ... dau. of Allexander Ratclyff of Ordshall, knt.
9. Thurstan Tyldesley
m. Parnell, dau. of Geffrey Shakerley, of Shakerley, esq.
__________________________________
From Chetham Soc., N.S., 93:103,
Biographical Sketches of Members of Parialment of Lancashire
(1290 - 1550), denoted [CS.NS.93]:

Thurstan Tyldesley. Son and heir of Thomas T. (died 1495) of Tyldesley
in West Derby hundred and Wardley in Salford hundred. ... Died 4 July 1554,
his s. and h., Thomas, by his first wife, being aged 43 years.
_________________________________
From "Pedigrees of Lancashire Families compiled by Joseph Foster, 1873,
denoted [FOS]:

Pedigree of Radcliffe of Fordenton:

William Radclyffe, Esq. of Ordshall, Knt., ob. 15 May, 13 Hen. 7
m. Jane, daughter of Sir Edmund Trafford, Knt., of Trafford;
James Byron, of Clayton, 2nd husband; John Talbot, of Salesbury, 3rd husband
i. William
ii. John
iii. Elizabeth
iv. Anne married 1st, to Sir Thomas Tildesley of Wardley and
2nd, to Sir Henry Farington, Knt., of Wednacre, co. Lancaster
v. Eleanor
vi. Clemence
vii. a daughter
________________________________

From Ancestral Roots, 7th edition, p40, denoted [AR7]:

William Radcliffe, of Ordshall, and Jane Trafford, daughter of Edmund Trafford,
were married in 1443.


kirkemo@comcast.net ("Gordon Kirkemo") wrote in message news:<JNEBIPBDPPDCGBKMKHOGCEPBEKAA.kirkemo@comcast.net>...
James,

I can provide a highly speculative answer to your query. I would encourage
you to obtain a copy of "The Ancestry of Mary Isaac" by Walter Goodwin
Davis. Mr. Davis provides a great deal of information regarding a number of
families, and a passage that suggests a connection for Thomas Tyldesley. If
correct, perhaps he can then be connected to the Tyldesleys found in your
other sources.

On page 310, a description is provided for Margaret de Worsely. I will
provide an edited summary of that description:

"In November, 1330, she [Margaret] was abducted and married to Thurstan de
Tyldesley, both of them of 'tender age.'...."

"At Michaelmas, 1352, Thurstan and Margaret de Tyldesley brought forward a
claim to the manor of Hindley against Sir Robert de Langton, and again the
case went against the Worsley interest."

"Margaret de Tyldesley was living at an advanced age when on March 20, 2
Henry IV (1400/1), John le Mascy of Tatton, knight, Thomas le Mascy, son of
the said John, and Geoffrey, brother of the said Thomas, released to
Margaret, daughter of Jordan de Worsely and widow of Thurstan, son of
Richard de Tyldesley, and to Thomas de Tyldesley, her son, any claim which
they had on land called Wordelegh (Wardley) in the vill of Workeslegh which
had been descended to Margaret from her father, Jordan de Workeslegh....."
A footnote for this referred to the 33rd Report of the Deputy Keeper of the
Public Records, Appendix, p.2.

I believe, but cannot yet prove, that Thomas (son of Thurstan and Margaret)
is the same Thomas as the father of Constance (wife of Hugh Parr). The
chronology seems to work, and this could explain the introduction of the
name Thurstan (son of Hugh and Constance Parr) to the Parr line. I suspect
a more thorough examination of the descent of the properties involved would
confirm or disprove this speculation.

If, and this is speculation, this is the correct Thomas Tyldesley, then his
line would appear to be:

1. Thomas de Tyldesley (d. aft 20 Mar 1400/1) m. unknown was the son of:
2. Thurstan de Tyldesley (d. bef 20 Mar 1400/1) m. (Nov 1330) Margaret de
Worsley was the son of:
3. Richard de Tyldesley m. unknown

Further:
2. Margaret de Worsley (d. aft 20 Mar 1400/1) m. (Nov 1330) Thurstan de
Tyldesley was the daughter of:
3. Jordan de Worsley m. unknown was the son of:
4. Richard de Worsley m. (1) unknown was the son of:
5. Geoffrey de Worsley m. Agnes _____ was the son of:
6. Richard de Worsley m. Maud ______ was the son of:
7. Elias de Worsley m. unknown

I would be very interested in knowing how your line descends through the
Parr family. I have a descent I found in a secondary source that I've been
unable to verify, and I would appreciate anything further you might have for
the following generations. Consider contacting me off-list if that would be
more comfortable for you.

I hope you will find this useful and I encourage you to get a copy of the
book by Mr. Davis.

Sincerely,
Gordon Kirkemo

James Ebel

Re: iso ancestry of Thomas Tyldesley, b. ca. 1425, of Wardle

Legg inn av James Ebel » 28 sep 2004 06:26:10

Henry,

Thank you very much for your response. Unfortunately I saw it only
moments after my previous post in response to Gordon. Now it seems
that the descent favored by Lunn is in agreement with the Visitation
of 1567, whereas my previous hypothesis conformed to the Visitation
of 1613.

Summarizing the definite "peg points" which you quote from Lunn: Hugh
died in 1435. (I'm not sure of the basis for Lunn's statement
that Hugh was born "ca. 1370.") His son Thurston was born 1424, and
was living 1486. Thurston's heir (son or brother), Thomas, was living
in 1503.

I am a bit confused about Lunn's Thomas, living 1503. It would seem
that he should be identical with the Thomas, referenced by me above,
who died in 1495, who was married to a Radcliffe, and who was father of
Thurston Tyldesley, MP. My source for this Thomas's date of death is
his inquisition post mortem, which presumably would be quite accurate.

If we follow Lunn's chronology, we have Margaret Worseley, born say 1320,
giving birth to Hugh in 1370 at age about 50. Then we have her son Hugh
fathering Thurston in 1424 at age 54. While certainly possible, it seems
that Lunn's proposed line of descent contains two successive generations
which are a bit "stretched".

Henry, does Lunn quote any additional contemporary records which might help?

Thanks again.

----James





"Sutliff" <suthen@redshift.com> wrote in message news:<10lh2gn36aoev63@corp.supernews.com>...
The Tyldesleys of Wardley are discussed in Lunn's book previously cited (pp.
33-40).Unquestionably Thomas Tyldesley, son of Thurstan and Margaret cannot
be father of Constance as he died 21 October 1410. He left a widow Joan and
his other heir was his brother Hugh. His mother Margaret was still alive at
that date. Apparently he left no issue or no surviving issue as none are
mentioned.

His brother Hugh (who inherited Wardley) was born circa 1370 (which makes
him a very late child born to his parents; as Henry Tyldesley took Margaret
Worsley by force on 7 November 1331; she must have been quite young). Hugh
died in 1435. His wife's was named Aleson.

Hugh's son Thurstan (born 1424) succeeded and still alive in 1486. He was
succeeded by Thomas Tyldesley who lived until 1503, but Lunn does not state
if Thomas was Thurstan's son or brother.

Hope this helps

Henry Sutliff

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