OT Duvall Question

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Clagett, Brice

OT Duvall Question

Legg inn av Clagett, Brice » 23 sep 2004 01:49:39

Upper Bennett was owned for several generations by the
Chew family. It was badly damaged by fire in 1991. I
believe it has been substantially rebuilt.

An inquiry to the Maryland Historical Trust would probably
produce more information. There is an email form on their
web site.

I doubt very much, however, whether the house even
prior to 1991 had anything to do with the house, if any,
that was there in the time of Benois Brasseur, who as
I understand it died in 1662. Some years ago a dendro-
chronology study was done of houses in Maryland that had
some claim to date from the 17th century. The earliest
result was 1698.

Gjest

Re: OT Duvall Question

Legg inn av Gjest » 23 sep 2004 03:31:33

In a message dated 9/22/04 10:35:28 AM Central Daylight Time,
SPerkins@interaccess.com writes:
Several of us on this list descend from Benois Brasseur

Do you have anything on the ancestry of Benois Brasseur? He is my ancestor.

Jno

Gjest

Re: OT Duvall Question

Legg inn av Gjest » 23 sep 2004 05:34:01

In a message dated 9/22/04 7:02:17 PM Central Daylight Time,
mcdonald@scs.uiuc.edu writes:
There is more than one Benois Brasseur. How does this one relate
to my Brasseur ancestor, Rev. Robert Brassure (of VA) whose daughter
Margaret married Thomas Jordan?

You got me. I have just been following along on these Duvall/Brasseur
messages, and I don't recall their being a mention of a Rev. Robert Brassure or any
other Benois Brasseur people. However, Benois was said in one message to have
had a son named Robert. How many of these Benois Brasseur people you mention
came to Nansemond Co., Va. before 1653 when my Benois was said to have come?
How many of them lived at the Cliffs in Md.?

Jno

Steven C. Perkins

Re: OT Duvall Question

Legg inn av Steven C. Perkins » 23 sep 2004 06:41:30

Doug:

I have also seen her name as Brassy or Brassey. I think it is that way
in the Perquiman Co., NC records of Thomas Jordan. Depending on the date
and the actual name, i.e., Brasseur, instead of Brassey, then your Rev
Robert might be the Robert Brasseur, called "brother in law" by Mary
Brasseur in her will. Otherwise, I'd like to see a reference to Rev as a
title for Robert Brasseur of VA.

SCPerkins

On 22 Sep 2004 at 18:46, Doug McDonald wrote:

Date forwarded: Wed, 22 Sep 2004 18:01:35 -0600
Date sent: Wed, 22 Sep 2004 18:46:56 -0500
Forwarded by: GEN-MEDIEVAL-L@rootsweb.com
From: Doug McDonald <mcdonald@scs.uiuc.edu>
Subject: Re: OT Duvall Question
To: GEN-MEDIEVAL-L@rootsweb.com
Organization: Usenet @ UIUC - http://www.killfile.org/usenet/

JKent10581@aol.com wrote:

In a message dated 9/22/04 10:35:28 AM Central Daylight Time,
SPerkins@interaccess.com writes:

Several of us on this list descend from Benois Brasseur


Do you have anything on the ancestry of Benois Brasseur? He is my
ancestor.

Jno


There is more than one Benois Brasseur. How does this one relate
to my Brasseur ancestor, Rev. Robert Brassure (of VA) whose daughter
Margaret married Thomas Jordan?

Doug McDonald

Doug McDonald

Re: Duvall/Brasseur Questions

Legg inn av Doug McDonald » 23 sep 2004 15:52:51

D. Spencer Hines wrote:

Whom do you have as the Jordan Grandfather of this Thomas Jordan who
allegedly married Margaret Brasseur in Sep 1658 reportedly in Surry
County, Virginia?



No one knows. The father of the Thomas Jordan (#2) who married
Margaret Brassuer was Thomas Jordan (#1), with an unknown female.
He (#1) came to America on the "Diana" in 1623 and represented Isle
of Wight Co. in the House of Burgesses, 1628, 29, and 32.

Now there is a guess as to who the father of Thomas #1 was:
the famous Samuel Jordan, who married the famous Cicely who, upon
being widowed, married Farrar. But this would have happened
back in England, and there is no proof. (And this birth,
amazingly, would actully be ON TOPIC for s.g.m.!!!!!)

I suggest patience, waiting for the arrival of Vol. 2 of the
new edition of Adventurers of Purse and Person, which should
get well past the J's. Maybe it will say something more.

Doug McDonald

Doug McDonald

Re: OT Duvall Question

Legg inn av Doug McDonald » 23 sep 2004 16:14:52

Steven C. Perkins wrote:

Doug:

I have also seen her name as Brassy or Brassey. I think it is that way
in the Perquiman Co., NC records of Thomas Jordan. Depending on the date
and the actual name, i.e., Brasseur, instead of Brassey, then your Rev
Robert might be the Robert Brasseur, called "brother in law" by Mary
Brasseur in her will. Otherwise, I'd like to see a reference to Rev as a
title for Robert Brasseur of VA.


As to the "Rev." , so would I (like to see the citation).

Doug McDonald

D. Spencer Hines

Re: Duvall/Brasseur Questions

Legg inn av D. Spencer Hines » 23 sep 2004 16:32:50

Yes, there does seem to be a great deal of confusion as to whether
Samuel Silas Jordan, Sr., the Ancient Planter, is the sire of this line.

His adventures in _Sea Venture_ in 1609/10 are right out of _Shakespeare
In Love_ and _The Tempest_ because Shakespeare read about them before he
wrote his play -- and Hollywood picked up the tale.

The person you describe as Thomas Jordan #1 below, is thought by some to
have married a Lucy Corker, circa 1628 -- but that too seems highly
problematic.

There may indeed be two [at the minimum] quite separate Jordan Families
in 17th Century Colonial Virginia -- one in Surry County and one in Isle
of Wight and Nansemond Counties.

Do you hold to the theory that Thomas Jordan #2 had a grandson, Charles
Jordan, [son of Samuel Jordan and Elizabeth Fleming] who married
Hellenah and sired a daughter, Elizabeth Jordan, who married Benjamin
Sublett, circa 1762, and who later became a Revolutionary War Veteran
and is a descendant of Manakin Towne Huguenots -- the SOBLETS?

DSH

"Doug McDonald" <mcdonald@scs.uiuc.edu> wrote in message
news:ciukfj$527$1@news.ks.uiuc.edu...

| D. Spencer Hines wrote:
|
| > Whom do you have as the Jordan Grandfather of this Thomas Jordan who
| > allegedly married Margaret Brasseur in Sep 1658 reportedly in Surry
| > County, Virginia?
| >
| >
|
| No one knows. The father of the Thomas Jordan (#2) who married
| Margaret Brassuer was Thomas Jordan (#1), with an unknown female.
| He (#1) came to America on the "Diana" in 1623 and represented Isle
| of Wight Co. in the House of Burgesses, 1628, 29, and 32.
|
| Now there is a guess as to who the father of Thomas #1 was:
| the famous Samuel Jordan, who married the famous Cicely who, upon
| being widowed, married Farrar. But this would have happened
| back in England, and there is no proof. (And this birth,
| amazingly, would actully be ON TOPIC for s.g.m.!!!!!)
|
| I suggest patience, waiting for the arrival of Vol. 2 of the
| new edition of Adventurers of Purse and Person, which should
| get well past the J's. Maybe it will say something more.
|
| Doug McDonald

D. Spencer Hines

Re: Duvall/Brasseur Questions

Legg inn av D. Spencer Hines » 23 sep 2004 18:33:57

Thanks.

They descend from which King/s of England, et al.? -- [the most recent].

DSH

"Doug McDonald" <mcdonald@scs.uiuc.edu> wrote in message
news:cive7h$f5t$1@news.ks.uiuc.edu...

| D. Spencer Hines wrote:
|
| >
| > Do you hold to the theory that Thomas Jordan #2 had a grandson,
| > Charles Jordan, [son of Samuel Jordan and Elizabeth Fleming]
| > who married Hellenah and sired a daughter, Elizabeth Jordan,
| > who married Benjamin Sublett, circa 1762, and who later
| > became a Revolutionary War Veteran and is a descendant
| > of Manakin Towne Huguenots -- the SOBLETS?
|
| I know nothing about that line. My line is
|
| Samuel Jordan = Elizabeth Fleming
| Samuel Jordan = Judith (Scott) Ware
| Caroline Matilda Jordan = Col. Hugh Rose
| Hugh F. Rose MD = Elizabeth Robertson
| Caroline Matilda Jordan Rose = Reddin McDonald
| Benjamin Hill McDonald = Ella Toland
| Benjamin Patrick McDonald = Dorothy Collins
| Me
|
| My royal ancestry comes from the parents of Col.
| Hugh Rose, his paternal grandfather and both
| maternal grandparents being of royal descent.
|
| Doug McDonald

Doug McDonald

Re: Duvall/Brasseur Questions

Legg inn av Doug McDonald » 23 sep 2004 23:12:16

D. Spencer Hines wrote:

Do you hold to the theory that Thomas Jordan #2 had a grandson, Charles
Jordan, [son of Samuel Jordan and Elizabeth Fleming] who married
Hellenah and sired a daughter, Elizabeth Jordan, who married Benjamin
Sublett, circa 1762, and who later became a Revolutionary War Veteran
and is a descendant of Manakin Towne Huguenots -- the SOBLETS?

I know nothing about that line. My line is

Samuel Jordan = Elizabeth Fleming
Samuel Jordan = Judith (Scott) Ware
Caroline Matilda Jordan = Col. Hugh Rose
Hugh F. Rose MD = Elizabeth Robertson
Caroline Matilda Jordan Rose = Reddin McDonald
Benjamin Hill McDonald = Ella Toland
Benjamin Patrick McDonald = Dorothy Collins
Me

My royal ancestry comes from the parents of Col.
Hugh Rose, his paternal grandfather and both
maternal grandparents being of royal descent.

Doug McDonald

D. Spencer Hines

Re: Duvall/Brasseur Questions

Legg inn av D. Spencer Hines » 24 sep 2004 14:28:57

Great Post!

Quite Fascinating.

Obviously a great deal of hard work and serious thought by a man with
very polished intellectual and research skills has gone into this.

People should pick up some clues here as to Good Genealogical
Methodology.

Vide infra pro interscriptibus.

DSH

"Doug McDonald" <mcdonald@scs.uiuc.edu> wrote in message
news:cj1g0c$5v6$1@news.ks.uiuc.edu...

| D. Spencer Hines wrote:

| > Thanks.
| >
| > They descend from which King/s of England, et al.? -- [the most
recent].
| >
| >
| I wrote:
|
| > | My royal ancestry comes from the parents of Col.
| > | Hugh Rose, his paternal grandfather and both
| > | maternal grandparents being of royal descent.
|
|
| Ahnentafel:
|
| 1 Col. Hugh Rose
| 2 Rev. Robert Rose
| 3 Anne Fitzhugh
| 4 John Rose of Wester Alves, Scotland
| 5 Margaret Grant
| 6 Henry Fitzhugh
| 7 Susannah Cooke
| 14 Mordecai Cooke
| 15 Frances Ironmonger
| 30 William Ironmonger
|
| William Ironmonger is descended from Henry I. See RD600, p 480.
|
| Margaret Grant is descended from Robert III of Scotland
| (best descent) and Edward III of England. See my post
| in this newsgroup earlier this year. This is solid.
| (To see the line, search the archives for "mcdonald and
| rose and ballindalloch" without the quotes. The correct one is
| obvious ... you will get this post too, of course.)
|
| The Rev. Robert Rose is more of a problem. RD600 lists
| a descent from Robert III through Falconer of Halkerton
| from a publication of Paul Gifford about that family.
| This is dependent on the same grant of arms that the
| Grant descent depends on ... but there is really no
| support from contemporary documents, just no documents
| disproving it and a cryptic burial marker supporting it
| through some worn letters. In my opinion the timing is suspect, in
| that we may be seeing a wishful "wrong wife",
| or even a missing generation due to the family
| dropping a famous outlaw from the line. I have
| worked very hard indeed on this line, and the problems
| are why I went to work on Grant, which seemed promising,
| and came out nicely.

Yes, these FEMALE lines are often MOST PRODUCTIVE. Many folks stupidly
neglect them. You obviously have NOT.

| There is no doubt, however, that he comes from the line
| of Rose of Bellivat and Kilravock. Rose of Bellivat
| comes from Robert II through Dunbar of Conzie, Westfield,
| and the Earl of Moray. There is no problem with this,
| even if there is a missing generation as above. I should add that we
| are still looking for better DNA evidence to back it up ....
| anybody want to find us a more recent Kilravock cousin
| in Scotland to test? (The main male line has a big
| spat with the female current Kilravock Baroness ... a real nut case
| fundamentalist creationist Christian, who has leased and willed
| Kilravock Castle to a bunch of fundies.) The current DNA evidence
| absolutely supports a connection to the proper part of Scotland,
| however, and other Roses from there, but only one tested man has the
| paper trail (this paper trail I describe.) Robert II is a descendant
| of Henry I of England.
|
| The closest Kilravock ancestor is, as far as I can tell, descended
| only from David I of Scotland and Henry I through a very
| convoluted path though the infamous Alexander (Seton) Gordon,
| 1st Earl of Huntly (and an even more notorious "4th wife" who
| was actually a mistress.)
|
| Doug McDonald

Doug McDonald

Re: Duvall/Brasseur Questions

Legg inn av Doug McDonald » 24 sep 2004 17:54:51

D. Spencer Hines wrote:
Thanks.

They descend from which King/s of England, et al.? -- [the most recent].


I wrote:


| My royal ancestry comes from the parents of Col.
| Hugh Rose, his paternal grandfather and both
| maternal grandparents being of royal descent.


Ahnentafel:

1 Col. Hugh Rose
2 Rev. Robert Rose
3 Anne Fitzhugh
4 John Rose of Wester Alves, Scotland
5 Margaret Grant
6 Henry Fitzhugh
7 Susannah Cooke
14 Mordecai Cooke
15 Frances Ironmonger
30 William Ironmonger

William Ironmonger is descended from Henry I. See RD600, p 480.

Margaret Grant is descended from Robert III of Scotland
(best descent) and Edward III of England. See my post
in this newsgroup earlier this year. This is solid.
(To see the line, search the archives for "mcdonald and
rose and ballindalloch" without the quotes. The correct one is
obvious ... you will get this post too, of course.)

The Rev. Robert Rose is more of a problem. RD600 lists
a descent from Robert III through Falconer of Halkerton
from a publication of Paul Gifford about that family.
This is dependent on the same grant of arms that the
Grant descent depends on ... but there is really no
support from contemporary documents, just no documents
disproving it and a cryptic burial marker supporting it
through some worn letters. In my opinion the timing is suspect, in
that we may be seeing a wishful "wrong wife",
or even a missing generation due to the family
dropping a famous outlaw from the line. I have
worked very hard indeed on this line, and the problems
are why I went to work on Grant, which seemed promising,
and came out nicely.

There is no doubt, however, that he comes from the line
of Rose of Bellivat and Kilravock. Rose of Bellivat
comes from Robert II through Dunbar of Conzie, Westfield,
and the Earl of Moray. There is no problem with this,
even if there is a missing generation as above. I should add that we
are still looking for better DNA evidence to back it up ....
anybody want to find us a more recent Kilravock cousin
in Scotland to test? (The main male line has a big
spat with the female current Kilravock Baroness ... a real nut case
fundamentalist creationist Christian, who has leased and willed
Kilravock Castle to a bunch of fundies.) The current DNA evidence
absolutely supports a connection to the proper part of Scotland,
however, and other Roses from there, but only one tested man has the
paper trail (this paper trail I describe.) Robert II is a descendant
of Henry I of England.

The closest Kilravock ancestor is, as far as I can tell, descended
only from David I of Scotland and Henry I through a very
convoluted path though the infamous Alexander (Seton) Gordon,
1st Earl of Huntly (and an even more notorious "4th wife" who
was actually a mistress.)

Doug McDonald

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