Joan Burley's parents
Moderator: MOD_nyhetsgrupper
-
Florent Coache
Joan Burley's parents
Hi,
For a while I am trying to identify the parents of Joan Burley married to
Sir Thomas Littleton (son of Thomas Westcote and Elizabeth littleton) c.
1440.
I have seen 2 differents sets of parents for this Joan Burley. Each set
seems to be sustained by secondary sources from what I see from the
Internet.
Can someone confirm which of the following set of names could be the real
Joan's parents?
1- William Burley (b.c.1410) and Alice grey (b.1410) from :
Genealogical and Heraldic History of the Commoners of Great Britain and
Ireland
Author: John Burke, Esq.
Publication: R. Bentley, New Burlington Street, London, England 1833
OR
2- William Burley (b.c.1410) and Ellen grendon (daughter of John grendon)
from
"Kin of Melicene Thurman Smith," Melicene Thurman Smith.
NOTE: If the mother to this Joan Burley turn out to be Alice grey, who are
the parents of this Alice Grey?
Is it:
1- Richard de Grey (2nd marriage) and Blanche Vache
OR
2- Richard, baron of Wilton Grey (3rd marriage) and Margaret de Ferrers
Thank you for your help
Regards
Florent Coache
Napierville
For a while I am trying to identify the parents of Joan Burley married to
Sir Thomas Littleton (son of Thomas Westcote and Elizabeth littleton) c.
1440.
I have seen 2 differents sets of parents for this Joan Burley. Each set
seems to be sustained by secondary sources from what I see from the
Internet.
Can someone confirm which of the following set of names could be the real
Joan's parents?
1- William Burley (b.c.1410) and Alice grey (b.1410) from :
Genealogical and Heraldic History of the Commoners of Great Britain and
Ireland
Author: John Burke, Esq.
Publication: R. Bentley, New Burlington Street, London, England 1833
OR
2- William Burley (b.c.1410) and Ellen grendon (daughter of John grendon)
from
"Kin of Melicene Thurman Smith," Melicene Thurman Smith.
NOTE: If the mother to this Joan Burley turn out to be Alice grey, who are
the parents of this Alice Grey?
Is it:
1- Richard de Grey (2nd marriage) and Blanche Vache
OR
2- Richard, baron of Wilton Grey (3rd marriage) and Margaret de Ferrers
Thank you for your help
Regards
Florent Coache
Napierville
-
Douglas Richardson
Re: Joan Burley's parents
Dear Florent ~
Thank you for your good post.
In answer to your first question about Joan Burley, wife of Sir Thomas
Littleton, I can tell you that Joan Burley was the daughter and
co-heiress of Sir William Burley, by his 1st wife, Ellen, daughter and
co-heiress of John de Grendon. You can find several sources which
trace the Burley, Grendon, and Browne families listed in my book,
Plantagenet Ancestry, on page 377. Joan (Burley) Littleton was the
half-aunt of Margaret Bracy, wife of John Harcourt, Esquire, whose
history is covered in the Harcourt family account on that page.
Margaret Bracy's mother, Elizabeth Browne, was the half-sister of Joan
(Burley) Littleton. There is also a history of Joan Burley's full
sister, Elizabeth (Burley) Trussell, found on page 719 in my book.
With respect to your question regarding a possible Burley connection
to the Grey family, various sources in print allege that the Burley
family has a descent from one of the well known baronial Grey
families. However, after much searching, I've been unable to prove
any blood connection between the two families. If you haven't done so
already, I might recommend that you check the helpful online A2A
Catalogue. It might shed some new light on this matter.
In the meantime, good luck with your Burley family sleuthing!
Best always, Douglas Richardson, Salt Lake City, Utah
E-mail: douglasrichardson@royalancestry.net
Website: http://www.royalancestry.net
gfcinc@qc.aira.com ("Florent Coache") wrote in message news:<LPBBKPKJHJILAHLCJJPHIENIGBAA.gfcinc@qc.aira.com>...
Thank you for your good post.
In answer to your first question about Joan Burley, wife of Sir Thomas
Littleton, I can tell you that Joan Burley was the daughter and
co-heiress of Sir William Burley, by his 1st wife, Ellen, daughter and
co-heiress of John de Grendon. You can find several sources which
trace the Burley, Grendon, and Browne families listed in my book,
Plantagenet Ancestry, on page 377. Joan (Burley) Littleton was the
half-aunt of Margaret Bracy, wife of John Harcourt, Esquire, whose
history is covered in the Harcourt family account on that page.
Margaret Bracy's mother, Elizabeth Browne, was the half-sister of Joan
(Burley) Littleton. There is also a history of Joan Burley's full
sister, Elizabeth (Burley) Trussell, found on page 719 in my book.
With respect to your question regarding a possible Burley connection
to the Grey family, various sources in print allege that the Burley
family has a descent from one of the well known baronial Grey
families. However, after much searching, I've been unable to prove
any blood connection between the two families. If you haven't done so
already, I might recommend that you check the helpful online A2A
Catalogue. It might shed some new light on this matter.
In the meantime, good luck with your Burley family sleuthing!
Best always, Douglas Richardson, Salt Lake City, Utah
E-mail: douglasrichardson@royalancestry.net
Website: http://www.royalancestry.net
gfcinc@qc.aira.com ("Florent Coache") wrote in message news:<LPBBKPKJHJILAHLCJJPHIENIGBAA.gfcinc@qc.aira.com>...
Hi,
For a while I am trying to identify the parents of Joan Burley married to
Sir Thomas Littleton (son of Thomas Westcote and Elizabeth littleton) c.
1440.
I have seen 2 differents sets of parents for this Joan Burley. Each set
seems to be sustained by secondary sources from what I see from the
Internet.
Can someone confirm which of the following set of names could be the real
Joan's parents?
1- William Burley (b.c.1410) and Alice grey (b.1410) from :
Genealogical and Heraldic History of the Commoners of Great Britain and
Ireland
Author: John Burke, Esq.
Publication: R. Bentley, New Burlington Street, London, England 1833
OR
2- William Burley (b.c.1410) and Ellen grendon (daughter of John grendon)
from
"Kin of Melicene Thurman Smith," Melicene Thurman Smith.
NOTE: If the mother to this Joan Burley turn out to be Alice grey, who are
the parents of this Alice Grey?
Is it:
1- Richard de Grey (2nd marriage) and Blanche Vache
OR
2- Richard, baron of Wilton Grey (3rd marriage) and Margaret de Ferrers
Thank you for your help
Regards
Florent Coache
Napierville
-
Bell HS
RE: Joan Burley's parents
Mr. Richardson,
Thank you for the reply to my post. This is solving the issue of my Joan
Burley's parents.
I will try to access the A2A catalogue as suggested.
Merci
Florent Coache
Napierville
-----Original Message-----
From: Douglas Richardson [mailto:royalancestry@msn.com]
Sent: Friday, September 17, 2004 8:03 PM
To: GEN-MEDIEVAL-L@rootsweb.com
Subject: Re: Joan Burley's parents
Dear Florent ~
Thank you for your good post.
In answer to your first question about Joan Burley, wife of Sir Thomas
Littleton, I can tell you that Joan Burley was the daughter and
co-heiress of Sir William Burley, by his 1st wife, Ellen, daughter and
co-heiress of John de Grendon. You can find several sources which
trace the Burley, Grendon, and Browne families listed in my book,
Plantagenet Ancestry, on page 377. Joan (Burley) Littleton was the
half-aunt of Margaret Bracy, wife of John Harcourt, Esquire, whose
history is covered in the Harcourt family account on that page.
Margaret Bracy's mother, Elizabeth Browne, was the half-sister of Joan
(Burley) Littleton. There is also a history of Joan Burley's full
sister, Elizabeth (Burley) Trussell, found on page 719 in my book.
With respect to your question regarding a possible Burley connection
to the Grey family, various sources in print allege that the Burley
family has a descent from one of the well known baronial Grey
families. However, after much searching, I've been unable to prove
any blood connection between the two families. If you haven't done so
already, I might recommend that you check the helpful online A2A
Catalogue. It might shed some new light on this matter.
In the meantime, good luck with your Burley family sleuthing!
Best always, Douglas Richardson, Salt Lake City, Utah
E-mail: douglasrichardson@royalancestry.net
Website: http://www.royalancestry.net
gfcinc@qc.aira.com ("Florent Coache") wrote in message
news:<LPBBKPKJHJILAHLCJJPHIENIGBAA.gfcinc@qc.aira.com>...
Thank you for the reply to my post. This is solving the issue of my Joan
Burley's parents.
I will try to access the A2A catalogue as suggested.
Merci
Florent Coache
Napierville
-----Original Message-----
From: Douglas Richardson [mailto:royalancestry@msn.com]
Sent: Friday, September 17, 2004 8:03 PM
To: GEN-MEDIEVAL-L@rootsweb.com
Subject: Re: Joan Burley's parents
Dear Florent ~
Thank you for your good post.
In answer to your first question about Joan Burley, wife of Sir Thomas
Littleton, I can tell you that Joan Burley was the daughter and
co-heiress of Sir William Burley, by his 1st wife, Ellen, daughter and
co-heiress of John de Grendon. You can find several sources which
trace the Burley, Grendon, and Browne families listed in my book,
Plantagenet Ancestry, on page 377. Joan (Burley) Littleton was the
half-aunt of Margaret Bracy, wife of John Harcourt, Esquire, whose
history is covered in the Harcourt family account on that page.
Margaret Bracy's mother, Elizabeth Browne, was the half-sister of Joan
(Burley) Littleton. There is also a history of Joan Burley's full
sister, Elizabeth (Burley) Trussell, found on page 719 in my book.
With respect to your question regarding a possible Burley connection
to the Grey family, various sources in print allege that the Burley
family has a descent from one of the well known baronial Grey
families. However, after much searching, I've been unable to prove
any blood connection between the two families. If you haven't done so
already, I might recommend that you check the helpful online A2A
Catalogue. It might shed some new light on this matter.
In the meantime, good luck with your Burley family sleuthing!
Best always, Douglas Richardson, Salt Lake City, Utah
E-mail: douglasrichardson@royalancestry.net
Website: http://www.royalancestry.net
gfcinc@qc.aira.com ("Florent Coache") wrote in message
news:<LPBBKPKJHJILAHLCJJPHIENIGBAA.gfcinc@qc.aira.com>...
Hi,
For a while I am trying to identify the parents of Joan Burley married to
Sir Thomas Littleton (son of Thomas Westcote and Elizabeth littleton) c.
1440.
I have seen 2 differents sets of parents for this Joan Burley. Each set
seems to be sustained by secondary sources from what I see from the
Internet.
Can someone confirm which of the following set of names could be the real
Joan's parents?
1- William Burley (b.c.1410) and Alice grey (b.1410) from :
Genealogical and Heraldic History of the Commoners of Great Britain and
Ireland
Author: John Burke, Esq.
Publication: R. Bentley, New Burlington Street, London, England 1833
OR
2- William Burley (b.c.1410) and Ellen grendon (daughter of John grendon)
from
"Kin of Melicene Thurman Smith," Melicene Thurman Smith.
NOTE: If the mother to this Joan Burley turn out to be Alice grey, who are
the parents of this Alice Grey?
Is it:
1- Richard de Grey (2nd marriage) and Blanche Vache
OR
2- Richard, baron of Wilton Grey (3rd marriage) and Margaret de Ferrers
Thank you for your help
Regards
Florent Coache
Napierville
-
Douglas Richardson
Re: Joan Burley's parents
Dear Florent ~
I checked the A2A Catalogue just now for records of Joan (Burley)
Littleton's parents, Sir William Burley and his 1st wife, Ellen
Grendon. I turned up abstracts of three documents which pertain to
this couple. The first two items come from the Shropshire Archives.
The third item comes from the Lichfield Record Office.
My search of the catalogue was very cursory. There are probably other
records pertaining to this family in the catalogue.
Best always, Douglas Richardson, Salt Lake City, Utah
E-mail: douglasrichardson@royalancestry.net
Website: http://www.royalancestry.net
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
Shropshire Archives: Oakly Park Collection
Reference: 20/5/23
Demise
Creation dates: 1 Nov 9 Hen VI (1430)
Language: Latin
Scope and Content
1. Thomas Henster, John Bruyn esq., Thos. Hepton and Richd. Bruyn of
Wistanstow.
2. William Burley and Elene his wife.
1. to 2. all lands and tenements and appurtenances in Langley als.
Longley which 1. formerly had by feoffment from Henry de Chadirton and
Johanna his wife, Richard Wynnesley and Katherine his wife and William
Lee and Matilda his wife to hold of the chief lord of the fee by
services due and accustomed.
Warranty by Richard Bruyn
Witnesses: Richd. Lakon, kt., Wm. Lodelowe, Wm. Parys, Wm. Soyll,
Robt. Soyll and Alys.
Dat.: Langley
4 tags, 3 seals and frg of 1 seal.
Reference: 20/5/24
Deed of Attorney
Creation dates: 1 Nov 9 Hen VI (1430
Language: Latin
Scope and Content
1. Thos. Henster, John Bruyn esq., Thos. Hopton, Richd Bruyn of
Wystanstow
2. Richard Blyke or Wm. Bawdewyn
3. Wm. Burley and Elene his wife.
1. appoints 2. their attorneys to deliver seizin to 3. of all their
lands and tenements in Langley in accordance with 20/5/23 above.
Dat. Langley
4 tags, 1 seal 2 frags. of seal.
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
Staffordshire and Stoke-on-Trent Archive Service, Lichfield Record
Office: Various Records Relating mainly to Tamworth and its Vicinity
Quitclaim by William Burley of Bromcroft, Shropshire, esquire, to
Margaret who was wife of Richard Grey, knight, formerly lord of
Wylton, and Thomas Ferrers of Tamworth senior, esquire, and his
executors of all actions, suits, demands and exactions which he had or
could have at any time 2 Jun [1450]
Date: 2 June, 28 Henry VI
Seal: fragment
fcinc@qc.aira.com ("Florent Coache") wrote in message news:<LPBBKPKJHJILAHLCJJPHIENIGBAA.gfcinc@qc.aira.com>...
I checked the A2A Catalogue just now for records of Joan (Burley)
Littleton's parents, Sir William Burley and his 1st wife, Ellen
Grendon. I turned up abstracts of three documents which pertain to
this couple. The first two items come from the Shropshire Archives.
The third item comes from the Lichfield Record Office.
My search of the catalogue was very cursory. There are probably other
records pertaining to this family in the catalogue.
Best always, Douglas Richardson, Salt Lake City, Utah
E-mail: douglasrichardson@royalancestry.net
Website: http://www.royalancestry.net
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
Shropshire Archives: Oakly Park Collection
Reference: 20/5/23
Demise
Creation dates: 1 Nov 9 Hen VI (1430)
Language: Latin
Scope and Content
1. Thomas Henster, John Bruyn esq., Thos. Hepton and Richd. Bruyn of
Wistanstow.
2. William Burley and Elene his wife.
1. to 2. all lands and tenements and appurtenances in Langley als.
Longley which 1. formerly had by feoffment from Henry de Chadirton and
Johanna his wife, Richard Wynnesley and Katherine his wife and William
Lee and Matilda his wife to hold of the chief lord of the fee by
services due and accustomed.
Warranty by Richard Bruyn
Witnesses: Richd. Lakon, kt., Wm. Lodelowe, Wm. Parys, Wm. Soyll,
Robt. Soyll and Alys.
Dat.: Langley
4 tags, 3 seals and frg of 1 seal.
Reference: 20/5/24
Deed of Attorney
Creation dates: 1 Nov 9 Hen VI (1430
Language: Latin
Scope and Content
1. Thos. Henster, John Bruyn esq., Thos. Hopton, Richd Bruyn of
Wystanstow
2. Richard Blyke or Wm. Bawdewyn
3. Wm. Burley and Elene his wife.
1. appoints 2. their attorneys to deliver seizin to 3. of all their
lands and tenements in Langley in accordance with 20/5/23 above.
Dat. Langley
4 tags, 1 seal 2 frags. of seal.
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
Staffordshire and Stoke-on-Trent Archive Service, Lichfield Record
Office: Various Records Relating mainly to Tamworth and its Vicinity
Quitclaim by William Burley of Bromcroft, Shropshire, esquire, to
Margaret who was wife of Richard Grey, knight, formerly lord of
Wylton, and Thomas Ferrers of Tamworth senior, esquire, and his
executors of all actions, suits, demands and exactions which he had or
could have at any time 2 Jun [1450]
Date: 2 June, 28 Henry VI
Seal: fragment
fcinc@qc.aira.com ("Florent Coache") wrote in message news:<LPBBKPKJHJILAHLCJJPHIENIGBAA.gfcinc@qc.aira.com>...
Hi,
For a while I am trying to identify the parents of Joan Burley married to
Sir Thomas Littleton (son of Thomas Westcote and Elizabeth littleton) c.
1440.
I have seen 2 differents sets of parents for this Joan Burley. Each set
seems to be sustained by secondary sources from what I see from the
Internet.
Can someone confirm which of the following set of names could be the real
Joan's parents?
1- William Burley (b.c.1410) and Alice grey (b.1410) from :
Genealogical and Heraldic History of the Commoners of Great Britain and
Ireland
Author: John Burke, Esq.
Publication: R. Bentley, New Burlington Street, London, England 1833
OR
2- William Burley (b.c.1410) and Ellen grendon (daughter of John grendon)
from
"Kin of Melicene Thurman Smith," Melicene Thurman Smith.
NOTE: If the mother to this Joan Burley turn out to be Alice grey, who are
the parents of this Alice Grey?
Is it:
1- Richard de Grey (2nd marriage) and Blanche Vache
OR
2- Richard, baron of Wilton Grey (3rd marriage) and Margaret de Ferrers
Thank you for your help
Regards
Florent Coache
Napierville
-
Tim Powys-Lybbe
Re: Joan Burley's parents
In message of 17 Sep, gfcinc@qc.aira.com ("Florent Coache") wrote:
I have two sources of information, neither being contemporary documents
but both apparently respectable.
The first is the Visitation of Shropshire of 1623, pub by the Harleian
Society in 1889. This shows, Vol I, pp. 254-5:
Sir John Burley = Alice dau of Sir Richard Penbridge KG,
| heir to her brother Walter
|
|
Sir John Burley = Alice, dau of Richard lord grey of Wilton
|
________________________|__________
| |
Johanna = Tho. Littleton Elizabetha = (1) Sir John Hopton
(2) Johannes Trussell
However this is all in italics to indicate that it did not come from the
main manuscript and neither of which manuscripts were the original
visitation ones. Further, if the date of this manuscript is anywhere
near 1623, it was referring to events of around 200 years previously.
The next document is the DNB (Dictionary of National Biography) article
on William Burley:
Burley, William fl. 1436
========================
Name: Burley, William
Dates: fl. 1436
Active Date: 1436
Gender: Male
Field of Interest: Politics, Government and Political Movements
Occupation: Speaker of the House of Commons
Sources: Manning's Lives of the Speakers (1851), pp. 86-91; Rot. Parl...
Contributor: G. F. R. B. [George Fisher Russell Barker]
Article
=======
Burley, William fl. 1436, speaker of the House of Commons, was the son
of John Burley of Bromcroft Castle, high sheriff of Salop in 1409. Sir
Simon Burley [q.v.], who was beheaded on 5 May 1388, but whose
attainder was reversed in the following year, was his
great-great-uncle. In 1417 William Burley was first elected a knight of
the shire for Salop. In the returns of the next twenty-four parliaments
his name is to be found as one of the members of this county no less
than eighteen times. The last parliament in which he was returned was
that which was summoned to meet at Westminster on 9 July 1455. He was
chosen speaker of the House of Commons on 19 March 1436, in the place
of Sir John Tyrrel, kt., who was compelled by illness to retire from
the chair. In the following parliament William Tresham was elected
speaker; however, on 26 Feb. 1444 Burley was again voted to the chair,
and continued to preside over the house until the dissolution of that
parliament.
Little is known either of his domestic or political life. In 1426 he
executed the office of sheriff of Salop. He died without male issue,
leaving two daughters and coheiresses, the eldest of whom married,
first, Sir Philip Chetwynd of Ingestrie, and, secondly, Sir Thomas
Lyttleton, the author of the `Tenures.' From this last marriage the
present Barons Lyttelton and Hatherton are descended. The youngest
daughter, Elizabeth, married Sir Thomas Trussel of Billesley,
Warwickshire.
Sources
=======
Manning's Lives of the Speakers (1851), pp. 86-91; Rot. Parl. iv. 502,
v. 67; Parliamentary Papers, 1878, lxii. (pt. i.) 289-351; Notes and
Queries, 4th ser. ix. 464.
Note that the DNB says it was William who was the father of the
co-heirs Elizabeth and Joan, not the John as in the Harleian manuscript.
If these people cannot agree, it is very difficult to confirm anything.
The History of Parliament series may have more to add but you will have
to find a Very Good Library as the many volumes are so expensive. This
site refers: http://www.history.ac.uk/hop/
--
Tim Powys-Lybbe tim@powys.org
For a miscellany of bygones: http://powys.org
Hi,
For a while I am trying to identify the parents of Joan Burley married to
Sir Thomas Littleton (son of Thomas Westcote and Elizabeth littleton) c.
1440.
I have seen 2 differents sets of parents for this Joan Burley. Each set
seems to be sustained by secondary sources from what I see from the
Internet.
Can someone confirm which of the following set of names could be the real
Joan's parents?
1- William Burley (b.c.1410) and Alice grey (b.1410) from :
Genealogical and Heraldic History of the Commoners of Great Britain and
Ireland
Author: John Burke, Esq.
Publication: R. Bentley, New Burlington Street, London, England 1833
OR
2- William Burley (b.c.1410) and Ellen grendon (daughter of John grendon)
from
"Kin of Melicene Thurman Smith," Melicene Thurman Smith.
NOTE: If the mother to this Joan Burley turn out to be Alice grey, who are
the parents of this Alice Grey?
Is it:
1- Richard de Grey (2nd marriage) and Blanche Vache
OR
2- Richard, baron of Wilton Grey (3rd marriage) and Margaret de Ferrers
Thank you for your help
Regards
Florent Coache
Napierville
I have two sources of information, neither being contemporary documents
but both apparently respectable.
The first is the Visitation of Shropshire of 1623, pub by the Harleian
Society in 1889. This shows, Vol I, pp. 254-5:
Sir John Burley = Alice dau of Sir Richard Penbridge KG,
| heir to her brother Walter
|
|
Sir John Burley = Alice, dau of Richard lord grey of Wilton
|
________________________|__________
| |
Johanna = Tho. Littleton Elizabetha = (1) Sir John Hopton
(2) Johannes Trussell
However this is all in italics to indicate that it did not come from the
main manuscript and neither of which manuscripts were the original
visitation ones. Further, if the date of this manuscript is anywhere
near 1623, it was referring to events of around 200 years previously.
The next document is the DNB (Dictionary of National Biography) article
on William Burley:
Burley, William fl. 1436
========================
Name: Burley, William
Dates: fl. 1436
Active Date: 1436
Gender: Male
Field of Interest: Politics, Government and Political Movements
Occupation: Speaker of the House of Commons
Sources: Manning's Lives of the Speakers (1851), pp. 86-91; Rot. Parl...
Contributor: G. F. R. B. [George Fisher Russell Barker]
Article
=======
Burley, William fl. 1436, speaker of the House of Commons, was the son
of John Burley of Bromcroft Castle, high sheriff of Salop in 1409. Sir
Simon Burley [q.v.], who was beheaded on 5 May 1388, but whose
attainder was reversed in the following year, was his
great-great-uncle. In 1417 William Burley was first elected a knight of
the shire for Salop. In the returns of the next twenty-four parliaments
his name is to be found as one of the members of this county no less
than eighteen times. The last parliament in which he was returned was
that which was summoned to meet at Westminster on 9 July 1455. He was
chosen speaker of the House of Commons on 19 March 1436, in the place
of Sir John Tyrrel, kt., who was compelled by illness to retire from
the chair. In the following parliament William Tresham was elected
speaker; however, on 26 Feb. 1444 Burley was again voted to the chair,
and continued to preside over the house until the dissolution of that
parliament.
Little is known either of his domestic or political life. In 1426 he
executed the office of sheriff of Salop. He died without male issue,
leaving two daughters and coheiresses, the eldest of whom married,
first, Sir Philip Chetwynd of Ingestrie, and, secondly, Sir Thomas
Lyttleton, the author of the `Tenures.' From this last marriage the
present Barons Lyttelton and Hatherton are descended. The youngest
daughter, Elizabeth, married Sir Thomas Trussel of Billesley,
Warwickshire.
Sources
=======
Manning's Lives of the Speakers (1851), pp. 86-91; Rot. Parl. iv. 502,
v. 67; Parliamentary Papers, 1878, lxii. (pt. i.) 289-351; Notes and
Queries, 4th ser. ix. 464.
Note that the DNB says it was William who was the father of the
co-heirs Elizabeth and Joan, not the John as in the Harleian manuscript.
If these people cannot agree, it is very difficult to confirm anything.
The History of Parliament series may have more to add but you will have
to find a Very Good Library as the many volumes are so expensive. This
site refers: http://www.history.ac.uk/hop/
--
Tim Powys-Lybbe tim@powys.org
For a miscellany of bygones: http://powys.org
-
Bell HS
RE: Joan Burley's parents
Hi Mr. Powys-Lybbe,
Thank you for your reply to my post.
As you have probably read on a previous reply from Mr. Richardson, one of
your source seems to indicate the same parents for Joan, being William and
maybe...Ellen grendon.
Since Mr. Richardson have posted an additional reply last night as of 2 new
sources of information with respect to this William Burley I should say that
....I do not know what to think anymore or in french we say... rester sur sa
faim.
Maybe there will be new/different/other evidence about my Joan Burley's
ancestry which can turn out in a near future !!
Thank you all for your time and effort.
Au revoir
Florent Coache
Napierville
cc: D. Richardson (about his reply with his look at A2A Catalogue)
-----Original Message-----
From: Tim Powys-Lybbe [mailto:tim@powys.org]
Sent: Saturday, September 18, 2004 6:37 AM
To: GEN-MEDIEVAL-L@rootsweb.com
Subject: Re: Joan Burley's parents
In message of 17 Sep, gfcinc@qc.aira.com ("Florent Coache") wrote:
I have two sources of information, neither being contemporary documents
but both apparently respectable.
The first is the Visitation of Shropshire of 1623, pub by the Harleian
Society in 1889. This shows, Vol I, pp. 254-5:
Sir John Burley = Alice dau of Sir Richard Penbridge KG,
| heir to her brother Walter
|
|
Sir John Burley = Alice, dau of Richard lord grey of Wilton
|
________________________|__________
| |
Johanna = Tho. Littleton Elizabetha = (1) Sir John Hopton
(2) Johannes Trussell
However this is all in italics to indicate that it did not come from the
main manuscript and neither of which manuscripts were the original
visitation ones. Further, if the date of this manuscript is anywhere
near 1623, it was referring to events of around 200 years previously.
The next document is the DNB (Dictionary of National Biography) article
on William Burley:
Burley, William fl. 1436
========================
Name: Burley, William
Dates: fl. 1436
Active Date: 1436
Gender: Male
Field of Interest: Politics, Government and Political Movements
Occupation: Speaker of the House of Commons
Sources: Manning's Lives of the Speakers (1851), pp. 86-91; Rot. Parl...
Contributor: G. F. R. B. [George Fisher Russell Barker]
Article
=======
Burley, William fl. 1436, speaker of the House of Commons, was the son
of John Burley of Bromcroft Castle, high sheriff of Salop in 1409. Sir
Simon Burley [q.v.], who was beheaded on 5 May 1388, but whose
attainder was reversed in the following year, was his
great-great-uncle. In 1417 William Burley was first elected a knight of
the shire for Salop. In the returns of the next twenty-four parliaments
his name is to be found as one of the members of this county no less
than eighteen times. The last parliament in which he was returned was
that which was summoned to meet at Westminster on 9 July 1455. He was
chosen speaker of the House of Commons on 19 March 1436, in the place
of Sir John Tyrrel, kt., who was compelled by illness to retire from
the chair. In the following parliament William Tresham was elected
speaker; however, on 26 Feb. 1444 Burley was again voted to the chair,
and continued to preside over the house until the dissolution of that
parliament.
Little is known either of his domestic or political life. In 1426 he
executed the office of sheriff of Salop. He died without male issue,
leaving two daughters and coheiresses, the eldest of whom married,
first, Sir Philip Chetwynd of Ingestrie, and, secondly, Sir Thomas
Lyttleton, the author of the `Tenures.' From this last marriage the
present Barons Lyttelton and Hatherton are descended. The youngest
daughter, Elizabeth, married Sir Thomas Trussel of Billesley,
Warwickshire.
Sources
=======
Manning's Lives of the Speakers (1851), pp. 86-91; Rot. Parl. iv. 502,
v. 67; Parliamentary Papers, 1878, lxii. (pt. i.) 289-351; Notes and
Queries, 4th ser. ix. 464.
Note that the DNB says it was William who was the father of the
co-heirs Elizabeth and Joan, not the John as in the Harleian manuscript.
If these people cannot agree, it is very difficult to confirm anything.
The History of Parliament series may have more to add but you will have
to find a Very Good Library as the many volumes are so expensive. This
site refers: http://www.history.ac.uk/hop/
--
Tim Powys-Lybbe tim@powys.org
For a miscellany of bygones: http://powys.org
Thank you for your reply to my post.
As you have probably read on a previous reply from Mr. Richardson, one of
your source seems to indicate the same parents for Joan, being William and
maybe...Ellen grendon.
Since Mr. Richardson have posted an additional reply last night as of 2 new
sources of information with respect to this William Burley I should say that
....I do not know what to think anymore or in french we say... rester sur sa
faim.
Maybe there will be new/different/other evidence about my Joan Burley's
ancestry which can turn out in a near future !!
Thank you all for your time and effort.
Au revoir
Florent Coache
Napierville
cc: D. Richardson (about his reply with his look at A2A Catalogue)
-----Original Message-----
From: Tim Powys-Lybbe [mailto:tim@powys.org]
Sent: Saturday, September 18, 2004 6:37 AM
To: GEN-MEDIEVAL-L@rootsweb.com
Subject: Re: Joan Burley's parents
In message of 17 Sep, gfcinc@qc.aira.com ("Florent Coache") wrote:
Hi,
For a while I am trying to identify the parents of Joan Burley married to
Sir Thomas Littleton (son of Thomas Westcote and Elizabeth littleton) c.
1440.
I have seen 2 differents sets of parents for this Joan Burley. Each set
seems to be sustained by secondary sources from what I see from the
Internet.
Can someone confirm which of the following set of names could be the real
Joan's parents?
1- William Burley (b.c.1410) and Alice grey (b.1410) from :
Genealogical and Heraldic History of the Commoners of Great Britain and
Ireland
Author: John Burke, Esq.
Publication: R. Bentley, New Burlington Street, London, England 1833
OR
2- William Burley (b.c.1410) and Ellen grendon (daughter of John grendon)
from
"Kin of Melicene Thurman Smith," Melicene Thurman Smith.
NOTE: If the mother to this Joan Burley turn out to be Alice grey, who are
the parents of this Alice Grey?
Is it:
1- Richard de Grey (2nd marriage) and Blanche Vache
OR
2- Richard, baron of Wilton Grey (3rd marriage) and Margaret de Ferrers
Thank you for your help
Regards
Florent Coache
Napierville
I have two sources of information, neither being contemporary documents
but both apparently respectable.
The first is the Visitation of Shropshire of 1623, pub by the Harleian
Society in 1889. This shows, Vol I, pp. 254-5:
Sir John Burley = Alice dau of Sir Richard Penbridge KG,
| heir to her brother Walter
|
|
Sir John Burley = Alice, dau of Richard lord grey of Wilton
|
________________________|__________
| |
Johanna = Tho. Littleton Elizabetha = (1) Sir John Hopton
(2) Johannes Trussell
However this is all in italics to indicate that it did not come from the
main manuscript and neither of which manuscripts were the original
visitation ones. Further, if the date of this manuscript is anywhere
near 1623, it was referring to events of around 200 years previously.
The next document is the DNB (Dictionary of National Biography) article
on William Burley:
Burley, William fl. 1436
========================
Name: Burley, William
Dates: fl. 1436
Active Date: 1436
Gender: Male
Field of Interest: Politics, Government and Political Movements
Occupation: Speaker of the House of Commons
Sources: Manning's Lives of the Speakers (1851), pp. 86-91; Rot. Parl...
Contributor: G. F. R. B. [George Fisher Russell Barker]
Article
=======
Burley, William fl. 1436, speaker of the House of Commons, was the son
of John Burley of Bromcroft Castle, high sheriff of Salop in 1409. Sir
Simon Burley [q.v.], who was beheaded on 5 May 1388, but whose
attainder was reversed in the following year, was his
great-great-uncle. In 1417 William Burley was first elected a knight of
the shire for Salop. In the returns of the next twenty-four parliaments
his name is to be found as one of the members of this county no less
than eighteen times. The last parliament in which he was returned was
that which was summoned to meet at Westminster on 9 July 1455. He was
chosen speaker of the House of Commons on 19 March 1436, in the place
of Sir John Tyrrel, kt., who was compelled by illness to retire from
the chair. In the following parliament William Tresham was elected
speaker; however, on 26 Feb. 1444 Burley was again voted to the chair,
and continued to preside over the house until the dissolution of that
parliament.
Little is known either of his domestic or political life. In 1426 he
executed the office of sheriff of Salop. He died without male issue,
leaving two daughters and coheiresses, the eldest of whom married,
first, Sir Philip Chetwynd of Ingestrie, and, secondly, Sir Thomas
Lyttleton, the author of the `Tenures.' From this last marriage the
present Barons Lyttelton and Hatherton are descended. The youngest
daughter, Elizabeth, married Sir Thomas Trussel of Billesley,
Warwickshire.
Sources
=======
Manning's Lives of the Speakers (1851), pp. 86-91; Rot. Parl. iv. 502,
v. 67; Parliamentary Papers, 1878, lxii. (pt. i.) 289-351; Notes and
Queries, 4th ser. ix. 464.
Note that the DNB says it was William who was the father of the
co-heirs Elizabeth and Joan, not the John as in the Harleian manuscript.
If these people cannot agree, it is very difficult to confirm anything.
The History of Parliament series may have more to add but you will have
to find a Very Good Library as the many volumes are so expensive. This
site refers: http://www.history.ac.uk/hop/
--
Tim Powys-Lybbe tim@powys.org
For a miscellany of bygones: http://powys.org
-
Douglas Richardson
Re: Joan Burley's parents
Dear Florent ~
There is no need to be confused. If you examine the sources cited in
Plantagenet Ancestry, you should find ample evidence which proves that
Joan (Burley) Littleton is the daughter and co-heiress of Sir William
Burley, by his 1st wife, Ellen Grendon.
I particularly recommend you examine the biography of Sir William
Burley by Roskell, which is cited in the Harcourt account in my book.
Roskell discusses Sir William Burley's life history, including his two
marriages, and provides adequate documentation for him and his family.
Roskell also discusses Burley's alleged connection to the Grey
family, which he questions for lack of evidence. I concur with Mr.
Roskell.
Best always, Douglas Richardson, Salt Lake City, Utah
fcoache@sympatico.ca ("Bell HS") wrote in message news:<LPBBKPKJHJILAHLCJJPHKEOPGBAA.fcoache@sympatico.ca>...
There is no need to be confused. If you examine the sources cited in
Plantagenet Ancestry, you should find ample evidence which proves that
Joan (Burley) Littleton is the daughter and co-heiress of Sir William
Burley, by his 1st wife, Ellen Grendon.
I particularly recommend you examine the biography of Sir William
Burley by Roskell, which is cited in the Harcourt account in my book.
Roskell discusses Sir William Burley's life history, including his two
marriages, and provides adequate documentation for him and his family.
Roskell also discusses Burley's alleged connection to the Grey
family, which he questions for lack of evidence. I concur with Mr.
Roskell.
Best always, Douglas Richardson, Salt Lake City, Utah
fcoache@sympatico.ca ("Bell HS") wrote in message news:<LPBBKPKJHJILAHLCJJPHKEOPGBAA.fcoache@sympatico.ca>...
Hi Mr. Powys-Lybbe,
Thank you for your reply to my post.
As you have probably read on a previous reply from Mr. Richardson, one of
your source seems to indicate the same parents for Joan, being William and
maybe...Ellen grendon.
Since Mr. Richardson have posted an additional reply last night as of 2 new
sources of information with respect to this William Burley I should say that
...I do not know what to think anymore or in french we say... rester sur sa
faim.
Maybe there will be new/different/other evidence about my Joan Burley's
ancestry which can turn out in a near future !!
Thank you all for your time and effort.
Au revoir
Florent Coache
Napierville
cc: D. Richardson (about his reply with his look at A2A Catalogue)
-
Bell HS
RE: Joan Burley's parents
Hi Mr. Richardson,
Thank you for your reply.
I can read the information on page 377 in your book. I think it make a
strong point as of Joan Burley's parentage.
I do not have the possibility of getting access to Roskell for a while. Is
it possible to know what are the main points about the Burley family? or is
it available on line (I can see some items related to William, Roger, John
and Simon Burley but with no details on the on-line Catalogue of the
National Archve of UK)?
Thank you
Florent Coache
Napierville
-----Original Message-----
From: Douglas Richardson [mailto:royalancestry@msn.com]
Sent: Saturday, September 18, 2004 8:35 PM
To: GEN-MEDIEVAL-L@rootsweb.com
Subject: Re: Joan Burley's parents
Dear Florent ~
There is no need to be confused. If you examine the sources cited in
Plantagenet Ancestry, you should find ample evidence which proves that
Joan (Burley) Littleton is the daughter and co-heiress of Sir William
Burley, by his 1st wife, Ellen Grendon.
I particularly recommend you examine the biography of Sir William
Burley by Roskell, which is cited in the Harcourt account in my book.
Roskell discusses Sir William Burley's life history, including his two
marriages, and provides adequate documentation for him and his family.
Roskell also discusses Burley's alleged connection to the Grey
family, which he questions for lack of evidence. I concur with Mr.
Roskell.
Best always, Douglas Richardson, Salt Lake City, Utah
fcoache@sympatico.ca ("Bell HS") wrote in message
news:<LPBBKPKJHJILAHLCJJPHKEOPGBAA.fcoache@sympatico.ca>...
Thank you for your reply.
I can read the information on page 377 in your book. I think it make a
strong point as of Joan Burley's parentage.
I do not have the possibility of getting access to Roskell for a while. Is
it possible to know what are the main points about the Burley family? or is
it available on line (I can see some items related to William, Roger, John
and Simon Burley but with no details on the on-line Catalogue of the
National Archve of UK)?
Thank you
Florent Coache
Napierville
-----Original Message-----
From: Douglas Richardson [mailto:royalancestry@msn.com]
Sent: Saturday, September 18, 2004 8:35 PM
To: GEN-MEDIEVAL-L@rootsweb.com
Subject: Re: Joan Burley's parents
Dear Florent ~
There is no need to be confused. If you examine the sources cited in
Plantagenet Ancestry, you should find ample evidence which proves that
Joan (Burley) Littleton is the daughter and co-heiress of Sir William
Burley, by his 1st wife, Ellen Grendon.
I particularly recommend you examine the biography of Sir William
Burley by Roskell, which is cited in the Harcourt account in my book.
Roskell discusses Sir William Burley's life history, including his two
marriages, and provides adequate documentation for him and his family.
Roskell also discusses Burley's alleged connection to the Grey
family, which he questions for lack of evidence. I concur with Mr.
Roskell.
Best always, Douglas Richardson, Salt Lake City, Utah
fcoache@sympatico.ca ("Bell HS") wrote in message
news:<LPBBKPKJHJILAHLCJJPHKEOPGBAA.fcoache@sympatico.ca>...
Hi Mr. Powys-Lybbe,
Thank you for your reply to my post.
As you have probably read on a previous reply from Mr. Richardson, one of
your source seems to indicate the same parents for Joan, being William and
maybe...Ellen grendon.
Since Mr. Richardson have posted an additional reply last night as of 2
new
sources of information with respect to this William Burley I should say
that
...I do not know what to think anymore or in french we say... rester sur
sa
faim.
Maybe there will be new/different/other evidence about my Joan Burley's
ancestry which can turn out in a near future !!
Thank you all for your time and effort.
Au revoir
Florent Coache
Napierville
cc: D. Richardson (about his reply with his look at A2A Catalogue)
-
Chris Dickinson
Re: Joan Burley's parents
Florent Coache write:
<snip>
Just to clear up a possible small misunderstanding.
There are various online resources that one can access; and the main
catalogue (that used to be called PROCAT) of the National Archives is not
the same as the database mentioned by Mr Richardson, A2A.
A2A is a database of catalogues to archives held though England but not at
the National Archives in Kew.
http://www.catalogue.nationalarchives.g ... efault.asp
http://www.a2a.org.uk/
Documents that you find on the catalogue of TNA can be ordered online, at a
cost.
If you find a document on A2A, however, you will need to contact the record
office concerned.
Bear in mind that many of the family catalogues listed on A2A were put
together by the family depositing the records, rather than by a trained
archivist, and can vary in detail and in accuracy. Many of them also are
identical to the catalogues held by the National Register of Archives; and
presumably there are still catalogues held in the NRA that haven't yet
found their way to A2A.
http://www.nra.nationalarchives.gov.uk/nra/
I do wish that the National Archives had not replaced the term PROCAT with
'the Catalogue'. This, given the number of online databases there are, is a
potential source of great confusion (let alone all those now out-of-date
references in your footnotes to PROCAT).
Chris
<snip>
I can see some items related to William, Roger, John
and Simon Burley but with no details on the on-line Catalogue of the
National Archve of UK
Just to clear up a possible small misunderstanding.
There are various online resources that one can access; and the main
catalogue (that used to be called PROCAT) of the National Archives is not
the same as the database mentioned by Mr Richardson, A2A.
A2A is a database of catalogues to archives held though England but not at
the National Archives in Kew.
http://www.catalogue.nationalarchives.g ... efault.asp
http://www.a2a.org.uk/
Documents that you find on the catalogue of TNA can be ordered online, at a
cost.
If you find a document on A2A, however, you will need to contact the record
office concerned.
Bear in mind that many of the family catalogues listed on A2A were put
together by the family depositing the records, rather than by a trained
archivist, and can vary in detail and in accuracy. Many of them also are
identical to the catalogues held by the National Register of Archives; and
presumably there are still catalogues held in the NRA that haven't yet
found their way to A2A.
http://www.nra.nationalarchives.gov.uk/nra/
I do wish that the National Archives had not replaced the term PROCAT with
'the Catalogue'. This, given the number of online databases there are, is a
potential source of great confusion (let alone all those now out-of-date
references in your footnotes to PROCAT).
Chris