Clarification on William III/V and William VI/VIII, county P
Moderator: MOD_nyhetsgrupper
-
alfonsa
Clarification on William III/V and William VI/VIII, county P
Could someone please clarify these two generations of the Williams of
Poitou/Acquitaine: William III/V and William VI/VIII.
Here are the identifications I have:
William III/V The Great
He married three times it appears [C Settipani's Eleanor of Acquitaine
ahnentafel in SGM calls Agnes de Macon of Burgundy his third wife as I
read that post called "Subject: Re: *Trente-Deux Quartiers Ahnenreihe*
for Eleanor of Aquitaine"]
[I can't find better identification of his other wives than
that presented at Hull data base which shows his 1st wife as Almodis
de Gevaudan, m abt 0997, d after 1005, no sources, no further id, but
there presented mother of William IV / VI [himself described as born
1004,acceded 1030, died 15 Dec 1038, married an Eustachia (not
further described than as dead after 1038) who died after 1038)]
Hull data base then shows 2nd wife for William III/V as Sancha Von
Gascogne, dtr of a not further described William Sancho Von Gascogne,
states Wm III/ IV married her 1011, that she died before 1018 and
bore him both a son Odo (Eudes) of Acquitaine, whom he calls a Duke of
Acquitaine without a number assigned, and a son Thoebald of Aquitaine
who died young . Who the heck is this Sancha, and are the sons she is
credited correct, and are they able to be better defined?]
As for the third wife of William III/V , the better identified
Countess Agnes de Macon of Burgundy, I have her assigned mother of
three children :
----1)Agnes of Poitou (Born about 1020 and died 14 Dec 1077 Rome
Italy-again Hull) married (21 Nov 1043-again Hull) to Emp Henry IV
(Henry III of Germany) [are the specifics re this Agnes, outside her
known marriage, correct and what is the source i can refer to if so? ]
----2) William V/VII /born Peter (this was a "younger son" born Peter
and later adopting name William as per a post by Todd Farmerie which
does not identify his mother) [As per Hull-born abt 1023, acceded
1039, died 1058, married Ermesinde (not further id'd) who died after
1058--any clues on his details and his wife entry are way welcome].
William V/VI had a daughter Agnes who married Peter I of Savoy. Hull
shows Ermesinde identified just previous as her mother. Is this in
anyway correct in terms of conjecture or fact?.
----3) William VI/VIII (Guy Geoffrey; Guy Guillaume) [born abt 1026,
died 25 Sept 1086 Chateau de Chize as per C Settipani's ahnentafel for
Eleanor of Acquitaine in SGM post] who married 1st Garsende of
Perigord, with childless marriage repudiated by Nov 1058-Any comments
on further identification of her and her ascendancy welcome ; William
VI/VIII married 2nd Mateoda/Mathilde. From this mariage came Agnes
of Poitou, the wife of both Alfonso VI of Leon and Castile and Helias
Count of Maine. As with Garsende of Periogord, can anyone enlighten
me on Mateoda/Mathilde regarding her time frames , ascendacy? ;
William VI/VIII married third Hildegarde/Audearde of Burgundy, dtr
Robert I Count of Burgundy and Ermengard{e} d'Anjous. I have two
children assigned to this third marriage of William VI/VIII:
i) Agnes of Acquitaine (died 1097 as per Todd Farmerie post in SGM)
married Pedro I of Aragon and Navarre [ NOTE: This is a probable dtr
of the man and is generally accepted as such, her maternal lineage
appears less certain. ES (neue Folge) has her "oddly catalouged" a
dtr of Dangereuse as per post Peter Stewart in SGM, while P Stewart
also comments same post that she is generally accepted a dtr of
Philippa]
ii) William VII/X (the Troubadour)
I have questions onWilliam VII/X too, but will save them for later.
Thank you for your time in reading this post; Any help is greatly
appreciated
Poitou/Acquitaine: William III/V and William VI/VIII.
Here are the identifications I have:
William III/V The Great
He married three times it appears [C Settipani's Eleanor of Acquitaine
ahnentafel in SGM calls Agnes de Macon of Burgundy his third wife as I
read that post called "Subject: Re: *Trente-Deux Quartiers Ahnenreihe*
for Eleanor of Aquitaine"]
[I can't find better identification of his other wives than
that presented at Hull data base which shows his 1st wife as Almodis
de Gevaudan, m abt 0997, d after 1005, no sources, no further id, but
there presented mother of William IV / VI [himself described as born
1004,acceded 1030, died 15 Dec 1038, married an Eustachia (not
further described than as dead after 1038) who died after 1038)]
Hull data base then shows 2nd wife for William III/V as Sancha Von
Gascogne, dtr of a not further described William Sancho Von Gascogne,
states Wm III/ IV married her 1011, that she died before 1018 and
bore him both a son Odo (Eudes) of Acquitaine, whom he calls a Duke of
Acquitaine without a number assigned, and a son Thoebald of Aquitaine
who died young . Who the heck is this Sancha, and are the sons she is
credited correct, and are they able to be better defined?]
As for the third wife of William III/V , the better identified
Countess Agnes de Macon of Burgundy, I have her assigned mother of
three children :
----1)Agnes of Poitou (Born about 1020 and died 14 Dec 1077 Rome
Italy-again Hull) married (21 Nov 1043-again Hull) to Emp Henry IV
(Henry III of Germany) [are the specifics re this Agnes, outside her
known marriage, correct and what is the source i can refer to if so? ]
----2) William V/VII /born Peter (this was a "younger son" born Peter
and later adopting name William as per a post by Todd Farmerie which
does not identify his mother) [As per Hull-born abt 1023, acceded
1039, died 1058, married Ermesinde (not further id'd) who died after
1058--any clues on his details and his wife entry are way welcome].
William V/VI had a daughter Agnes who married Peter I of Savoy. Hull
shows Ermesinde identified just previous as her mother. Is this in
anyway correct in terms of conjecture or fact?.
----3) William VI/VIII (Guy Geoffrey; Guy Guillaume) [born abt 1026,
died 25 Sept 1086 Chateau de Chize as per C Settipani's ahnentafel for
Eleanor of Acquitaine in SGM post] who married 1st Garsende of
Perigord, with childless marriage repudiated by Nov 1058-Any comments
on further identification of her and her ascendancy welcome ; William
VI/VIII married 2nd Mateoda/Mathilde. From this mariage came Agnes
of Poitou, the wife of both Alfonso VI of Leon and Castile and Helias
Count of Maine. As with Garsende of Periogord, can anyone enlighten
me on Mateoda/Mathilde regarding her time frames , ascendacy? ;
William VI/VIII married third Hildegarde/Audearde of Burgundy, dtr
Robert I Count of Burgundy and Ermengard{e} d'Anjous. I have two
children assigned to this third marriage of William VI/VIII:
i) Agnes of Acquitaine (died 1097 as per Todd Farmerie post in SGM)
married Pedro I of Aragon and Navarre [ NOTE: This is a probable dtr
of the man and is generally accepted as such, her maternal lineage
appears less certain. ES (neue Folge) has her "oddly catalouged" a
dtr of Dangereuse as per post Peter Stewart in SGM, while P Stewart
also comments same post that she is generally accepted a dtr of
Philippa]
ii) William VII/X (the Troubadour)
I have questions onWilliam VII/X too, but will save them for later.
Thank you for your time in reading this post; Any help is greatly
appreciated
-
Peter Stewart
Re: Clarification on William III/V and William VI/VIII, coun
Comments interspersed:
cswope@cynthiaswope.com (alfonsa) wrote in message news:<4baf7e32.0409160620.2db8c063@posting.google.com>...
William the Great's first known wife (and he seems to have been around
thirty years old when she first occurs, so that like her he might have
been married before) was Almodis, the widow of Audebert I, count of La
Marche and Périgord. Her parentage is not certain - apart from the
speculation linking her to the family of Gévaudan, another only
relates her to them by mariage as a daughter of Géraud, viscount of
Limoges.
Almodis was mother of William the Fat, who died after 6 September
(possibly on 15 December) 1038, and whose wife Eustacia was still
living at that time. Her family is not known.
Sança was also called Prisca, and was dead by 1018. Her father was
Guilhem Sanç, duke of Gascony and her mother was apparently (I haven't
looked for proof) Urraca of Navarre.
Sança was mother of Eudes, duke of Gascogny as well as duke of
Aquitaine, count of Poitou & Guyenne (killed in battle on 10 March
1039). Two other children credited to her are Thibaud, who died young,
and Adelais, who married successively Géraud, count of Armagnac
(leaving descendants) and a viscount of Lomagne.
William the Great was married by March 1019 to Agnes of Burgundy,
daughter of Count Otto-William - her origin is not in doubt, as in an
undated charter of Cluny she is helpfully described as "Agnes
comitissa, filia Ottonis cognomento Willelmi, comitis Matiscensis,
uxor etiam ejusdem nominis Willelmi, ducis Aquitanorum". Agnes was
later wife of Geoffroy II Martel, count of Anjou, and she died (veiled
as a nun) on 9 November 1068.
Agnes was probably born closer to 1025 than to 1020, and she was
married at Besançon on 1 (not 21) November 1043 - she was the second
wife of Henry III, known as "the Black", duke of Bavaria & Swabia,
king of Burgundy & emperor of the West (died 5 October 1056). Agnes
was regent of the empire from 1056 to 1061, and there are plenty of
sources for her which you can find cited in any good seconday work on
the period.
No more is known for certain about Ermesinde - anything else you may
find is merely speculation.
From memory this Agnes is said to have been daughter of a count of
Poitou, but which one it is not recorded.
Not much is known - she was apparently daughter of Audebert II, count
of Périgord, and she became a nun in Saintes.
Mateoda is _speculated_ to have belonged to the family of the
viscounts iof Thouars. She was repudiated after May 1068 and then
disappears from the record. Her daughter Agnes was divorced by King
Alfonso VI in 1077 - I don't recall that she married a second time but
I'm unable to check this at present and someone else on SGM is bound
to know.
There was also a son named Hugo, living in 1126.
I'm puzzled by the note ascribed above to me, which is about the
following generation - Agnes (Mathilde), daughter of William the
Troubadour and (probably) his first wife Philippa of Toulouse. This
Agnes married first Aimery V, viscount of Thouars (murdered in 1127)
and secondly Ramiro II the Monk, king of Aragón & Navarre (died 16
August 1157).
Peter Stewart
cswope@cynthiaswope.com (alfonsa) wrote in message news:<4baf7e32.0409160620.2db8c063@posting.google.com>...
Could someone please clarify these two generations of the Williams of
Poitou/Acquitaine: William III/V and William VI/VIII.
Here are the identifications I have:
William III/V The Great
He married three times it appears [C Settipani's Eleanor of Acquitaine
ahnentafel in SGM calls Agnes de Macon of Burgundy his third wife as I
read that post called "Subject: Re: *Trente-Deux Quartiers Ahnenreihe*
for Eleanor of Aquitaine"]
[I can't find better identification of his other wives than
that presented at Hull data base which shows his 1st wife as Almodis
de Gevaudan, m abt 0997, d after 1005, no sources, no further id, but
there presented mother of William IV / VI [himself described as born
1004,acceded 1030, died 15 Dec 1038, married an Eustachia (not
further described than as dead after 1038) who died after 1038)]
William the Great's first known wife (and he seems to have been around
thirty years old when she first occurs, so that like her he might have
been married before) was Almodis, the widow of Audebert I, count of La
Marche and Périgord. Her parentage is not certain - apart from the
speculation linking her to the family of Gévaudan, another only
relates her to them by mariage as a daughter of Géraud, viscount of
Limoges.
Almodis was mother of William the Fat, who died after 6 September
(possibly on 15 December) 1038, and whose wife Eustacia was still
living at that time. Her family is not known.
Hull data base then shows 2nd wife for William III/V as Sancha Von
Gascogne, dtr of a not further described William Sancho Von Gascogne,
states Wm III/ IV married her 1011, that she died before 1018 and
bore him both a son Odo (Eudes) of Acquitaine, whom he calls a Duke of
Acquitaine without a number assigned, and a son Thoebald of Aquitaine
who died young . Who the heck is this Sancha, and are the sons she is
credited correct, and are they able to be better defined?]
Sança was also called Prisca, and was dead by 1018. Her father was
Guilhem Sanç, duke of Gascony and her mother was apparently (I haven't
looked for proof) Urraca of Navarre.
Sança was mother of Eudes, duke of Gascogny as well as duke of
Aquitaine, count of Poitou & Guyenne (killed in battle on 10 March
1039). Two other children credited to her are Thibaud, who died young,
and Adelais, who married successively Géraud, count of Armagnac
(leaving descendants) and a viscount of Lomagne.
As for the third wife of William III/V , the better identified
Countess Agnes de Macon of Burgundy, I have her assigned mother of
three children :
William the Great was married by March 1019 to Agnes of Burgundy,
daughter of Count Otto-William - her origin is not in doubt, as in an
undated charter of Cluny she is helpfully described as "Agnes
comitissa, filia Ottonis cognomento Willelmi, comitis Matiscensis,
uxor etiam ejusdem nominis Willelmi, ducis Aquitanorum". Agnes was
later wife of Geoffroy II Martel, count of Anjou, and she died (veiled
as a nun) on 9 November 1068.
----1)Agnes of Poitou (Born about 1020 and died 14 Dec 1077 Rome
Italy-again Hull) married (21 Nov 1043-again Hull) to Emp Henry IV
(Henry III of Germany) [are the specifics re this Agnes, outside her
known marriage, correct and what is the source i can refer to if so? ]
Agnes was probably born closer to 1025 than to 1020, and she was
married at Besançon on 1 (not 21) November 1043 - she was the second
wife of Henry III, known as "the Black", duke of Bavaria & Swabia,
king of Burgundy & emperor of the West (died 5 October 1056). Agnes
was regent of the empire from 1056 to 1061, and there are plenty of
sources for her which you can find cited in any good seconday work on
the period.
----2) William V/VII /born Peter (this was a "younger son" born Peter
and later adopting name William as per a post by Todd Farmerie which
does not identify his mother) [As per Hull-born abt 1023, acceded
1039, died 1058, married Ermesinde (not further id'd) who died after
1058--any clues on his details and his wife entry are way welcome].
No more is known for certain about Ermesinde - anything else you may
find is merely speculation.
William V/VI had a daughter Agnes who married Peter I of Savoy. Hull
shows Ermesinde identified just previous as her mother. Is this in
anyway correct in terms of conjecture or fact?.
From memory this Agnes is said to have been daughter of a count of
Poitou, but which one it is not recorded.
----3) William VI/VIII (Guy Geoffrey; Guy Guillaume) [born abt 1026,
died 25 Sept 1086 Chateau de Chize as per C Settipani's ahnentafel for
Eleanor of Acquitaine in SGM post] who married 1st Garsende of
Perigord, with childless marriage repudiated by Nov 1058-Any comments
on further identification of her and her ascendancy welcome
Not much is known - she was apparently daughter of Audebert II, count
of Périgord, and she became a nun in Saintes.
William VI/VIII married 2nd Mateoda/Mathilde. From this mariage came
Agnes of Poitou, the wife of both Alfonso VI of Leon and Castile and
Helias Count of Maine. As with Garsende of Periogord, can anyone
enlighten me on Mateoda/Mathilde regarding her time frames, ascendacy?;
Mateoda is _speculated_ to have belonged to the family of the
viscounts iof Thouars. She was repudiated after May 1068 and then
disappears from the record. Her daughter Agnes was divorced by King
Alfonso VI in 1077 - I don't recall that she married a second time but
I'm unable to check this at present and someone else on SGM is bound
to know.
William VI/VIII married third Hildegarde/Audearde of Burgundy, dtr
Robert I Count of Burgundy and Ermengard{e} d'Anjous. I have two
children assigned to this third marriage of William VI/VIII:
i) Agnes of Acquitaine (died 1097 as per Todd Farmerie post in SGM)
married Pedro I of Aragon and Navarre [ NOTE: This is a probable dtr
of the man and is generally accepted as such, her maternal lineage
appears less certain. ES (neue Folge) has her "oddly catalouged" a
dtr of Dangereuse as per post Peter Stewart in SGM, while P Stewart
also comments same post that she is generally accepted a dtr of
Philippa]
ii) William VII/X (the Troubadour)
There was also a son named Hugo, living in 1126.
I'm puzzled by the note ascribed above to me, which is about the
following generation - Agnes (Mathilde), daughter of William the
Troubadour and (probably) his first wife Philippa of Toulouse. This
Agnes married first Aimery V, viscount of Thouars (murdered in 1127)
and secondly Ramiro II the Monk, king of Aragón & Navarre (died 16
August 1157).
Peter Stewart
-
Peter Stewart
Re: Clarification on William III/V and William VI/VIII, coun
Peter Stewart wrote:
<snip>
Belatedly my memory stirred - Orderic Vitalis is the only source for
this supposed remarriage of Agnes, and he cannot be considered
absolutely reliable on the point.
He wrote (see book X, chapter 18 in _The Ecclesiastical History of
Orderic Vitalis_, edited by Marjorie Chibnall, 6 vols (Oxford, 1969-81)
V p. 306): "Defuncta coniuge sua celibem uitam actitare renuit, sed
Agnetem filiam Guillelmi Pictauorum ducis relictam Hildefonsi senioris
Galiciae regis uxorem duxit. Celebres nuptias cum ingenti tripudio
perpetrauit, sed sequenti anno multis lugentibus obiit" (trans: After
his wife died he [Helias of Maine] declined to lead a celibate life and
instead married Duke William of the Poitevins' daughter Agnes, the widow
of old King Alfonso of Galicia. The nuptials were performed with
extraordinary celebrations, but the following year to general mourning
he died).
As Chibnall noted (loc cit, note 5) "doubts about the identity of this
lady have never been satisfactorily resolved". King Alfonso repudiated
Agnes ca 1077, so that she would have been cooling her marital heels for
some 32 years before the alleged union with Helias, who died in 1110.
Opinion is divided on the question as to whether the second wife of
Helias might actually have been her half-sister and namesake, Agnes the
widow (in 1104) of King Pedro I of Aragón & Navarre. This seems far more
plausible to me.
Peter Stewart
Comments interspersed:
cswope@cynthiaswope.com (alfonsa) wrote in message news:<4baf7e32.0409160620.2db8c063@posting.google.com>...
<snip>
William VI/VIII married 2nd Mateoda/Mathilde. From this mariage came
Agnes of Poitou, the wife of both Alfonso VI of Leon and Castile and
Helias Count of Maine. As with Garsende of Periogord, can anyone
enlighten me on Mateoda/Mathilde regarding her time frames, ascendacy?;
Mateoda is _speculated_ to have belonged to the family of the
viscounts iof Thouars. She was repudiated after May 1068 and then
disappears from the record. Her daughter Agnes was divorced by King
Alfonso VI in 1077 - I don't recall that she married a second time but
I'm unable to check this at present and someone else on SGM is bound
to know.
Belatedly my memory stirred - Orderic Vitalis is the only source for
this supposed remarriage of Agnes, and he cannot be considered
absolutely reliable on the point.
He wrote (see book X, chapter 18 in _The Ecclesiastical History of
Orderic Vitalis_, edited by Marjorie Chibnall, 6 vols (Oxford, 1969-81)
V p. 306): "Defuncta coniuge sua celibem uitam actitare renuit, sed
Agnetem filiam Guillelmi Pictauorum ducis relictam Hildefonsi senioris
Galiciae regis uxorem duxit. Celebres nuptias cum ingenti tripudio
perpetrauit, sed sequenti anno multis lugentibus obiit" (trans: After
his wife died he [Helias of Maine] declined to lead a celibate life and
instead married Duke William of the Poitevins' daughter Agnes, the widow
of old King Alfonso of Galicia. The nuptials were performed with
extraordinary celebrations, but the following year to general mourning
he died).
As Chibnall noted (loc cit, note 5) "doubts about the identity of this
lady have never been satisfactorily resolved". King Alfonso repudiated
Agnes ca 1077, so that she would have been cooling her marital heels for
some 32 years before the alleged union with Helias, who died in 1110.
Opinion is divided on the question as to whether the second wife of
Helias might actually have been her half-sister and namesake, Agnes the
widow (in 1104) of King Pedro I of Aragón & Navarre. This seems far more
plausible to me.
Peter Stewart
-
alfonsa
Re: Clarification on William III/V and William VI/VIII, coun
Peter
First, thank you for your very detailed responses. I have follow up
questions but write this note immediately hoping by backtracking to
not further confuse novices like myself seeking clarification through
SGM post search and to respond to your understood puzzlement with a
misentry of mine within the larger contents
p_m_stewart@msn.com (Peter Stewart) wrote in message news:<88abeaa.0409161638.33731bf1@posting.google.com>...
Peter, I did indeed misenter regarding Agnes dtr of William VI/VII
and Hildegarde/Audearde. I morphed , as you saw, some of her info
with that of Agnes of the larger family, and didn't catch it in my
proofread. I am writing this clarification knowing how it is that I,
as a novice, utilize SGM and hoping to assist other researchers like
me who are not as advanced and might encounter it, growing further
confused with the several Agnes' of the extended family. Let me know
if I have failed in its detail again!
My original query and the paragraph regarding Agnes daughter of
William VI/ VII identification SHOULD have read:
"William VI/VIII married (ca 1069 as per Hull-Is this date about
right?) third Hildegarde/Audearde of Burgundy, dtr Robert I Count
of Burgundy and Ermengard{e} d'Anjous. I have two children assigned to
this third marriage of William VI/VIII:
i) Agnes of Acquitaine ( died 1097 as per Todd Farmerie in SGM)
married [as his first wife at Jaca in 1086 as per Peter Stewart post
SGM entitled RE: Agnes of Aquitaine Date: 2001-07-08) Pedro I of
Aragon and Navarre [born 1069, died Valle de Aran 27 September 1104
-info again from P Stewart post above given) This marriage produced a
son Pedro and daughter Isabel who died young. As advanced by Szabolcs
de Vajay,Pedro I's son Pedro (brother to the Isabel who died young)
married Maria, dtr of El Cid ( Todd Farmerie informs in SGM, Vajay
"has argued that Maria, prior to her Barcelona marriage, had briefly
been wife of Pedro's son Pedro, who died v.p.s.p., and it was as his
widow that she married Ramon Berenger."
ii) William VII/X (the Troubadour)"
Peter, you now enlighten me that a third child belongs in the
paragraph
iii)Hugo, living in 1126
Ok, now i'm off to my further questions
I thank you again. I know responses like yours take a great deal of
time.
Cynthia Swope
First, thank you for your very detailed responses. I have follow up
questions but write this note immediately hoping by backtracking to
not further confuse novices like myself seeking clarification through
SGM post search and to respond to your understood puzzlement with a
misentry of mine within the larger contents
cswope@cynthiaswope.com (alfonsa) wrote in message news:<4baf7e32.0409160620.2db8c063@posting.google.com>...
William VI/VIII married third Hildegarde/Audearde of Burgundy, dtr
Robert I Count of Burgundy and Ermengard{e} d'Anjous. I have two
children assigned to this third marriage of William VI/VIII:
i) Agnes of Acquitaine (died 1097 as per Todd Farmerie post in SGM)
married Pedro I of Aragon and Navarre [ NOTE: This is a probable dtr
of the man and is generally accepted as such, her maternal lineage
appears less certain. ES (neue Folge) has her "oddly catalouged" a
dtr of Dangereuse as per post Peter Stewart in SGM, while P Stewart
also comments same post that she is generally accepted a dtr of
Philippa]
ii) William VII/X (the Troubadour)
p_m_stewart@msn.com (Peter Stewart) wrote in message news:<88abeaa.0409161638.33731bf1@posting.google.com>...
Comments interspersed:
There was also a son named Hugo, living in 1126.
I'm puzzled by the note ascribed above to me, which is about the
following generation - Agnes (Mathilde), daughter of William the
Troubadour and (probably) his first wife Philippa of Toulouse. This
Agnes married first Aimery V, viscount of Thouars (murdered in 1127)
and secondly Ramiro II the Monk, king of Aragón & Navarre (died 16
August 1157).
Peter, I did indeed misenter regarding Agnes dtr of William VI/VII
and Hildegarde/Audearde. I morphed , as you saw, some of her info
with that of Agnes of the larger family, and didn't catch it in my
proofread. I am writing this clarification knowing how it is that I,
as a novice, utilize SGM and hoping to assist other researchers like
me who are not as advanced and might encounter it, growing further
confused with the several Agnes' of the extended family. Let me know
if I have failed in its detail again!
My original query and the paragraph regarding Agnes daughter of
William VI/ VII identification SHOULD have read:
"William VI/VIII married (ca 1069 as per Hull-Is this date about
right?) third Hildegarde/Audearde of Burgundy, dtr Robert I Count
of Burgundy and Ermengard{e} d'Anjous. I have two children assigned to
this third marriage of William VI/VIII:
i) Agnes of Acquitaine ( died 1097 as per Todd Farmerie in SGM)
married [as his first wife at Jaca in 1086 as per Peter Stewart post
SGM entitled RE: Agnes of Aquitaine Date: 2001-07-08) Pedro I of
Aragon and Navarre [born 1069, died Valle de Aran 27 September 1104
-info again from P Stewart post above given) This marriage produced a
son Pedro and daughter Isabel who died young. As advanced by Szabolcs
de Vajay,Pedro I's son Pedro (brother to the Isabel who died young)
married Maria, dtr of El Cid ( Todd Farmerie informs in SGM, Vajay
"has argued that Maria, prior to her Barcelona marriage, had briefly
been wife of Pedro's son Pedro, who died v.p.s.p., and it was as his
widow that she married Ramon Berenger."
ii) William VII/X (the Troubadour)"
Peter, you now enlighten me that a third child belongs in the
paragraph
iii)Hugo, living in 1126
Ok, now i'm off to my further questions
I thank you again. I know responses like yours take a great deal of
time.
Cynthia Swope
-
Todd A. Farmerie
Re: Clarification on William III/V and William VI/VIII, coun
Peter Stewart wrote:
There is a letter from the pope to Alfonso in 1080 complaining about him
having formed a consanguinous marriage, and this is thought to refer to
his marriage to Agnes, accounting for the repudiation (well, that and
her childlessness). If so, Mateoda was presumably a descendant of one
of the handfull of Spanish princesses who married abroad.
Do you have a specific citation of Agnes being "widow" of Pedro in 1104?
Agnes ceases to appear in royal diplomas ca. 1097, and is replaced
there by a queen Bertha. It is certainly possible that Agnes was
repudiated by Pedro, and hence survived him, but I am unaware of any
contemporary source that provides such a detail (as we have with Alfonso).
I have seen it speculated (don't recall where) that perhaps the
chronological lapse was due to another marrriage in between - that after
Alfonso dumped her, she remarried to someone of lesser importance, and
when she was then widowed and remarried Helias, Orderic only saw fit to
mention the more important of her prior husbands.
taf
Peter Stewart wrote:
Comments interspersed:
cswope@cynthiaswope.com (alfonsa) wrote in message
news:<4baf7e32.0409160620.2db8c063@posting.google.com>...
snip
William VI/VIII married 2nd Mateoda/Mathilde. From this mariage came
Agnes of Poitou, the wife of both Alfonso VI of Leon and Castile and
Helias Count of Maine. As with Garsende of Periogord, can anyone
enlighten me on Mateoda/Mathilde regarding her time frames, ascendacy?;
Mateoda is _speculated_ to have belonged to the family of the
viscounts iof Thouars. She was repudiated after May 1068 and then
disappears from the record. Her daughter Agnes was divorced by King
Alfonso VI in 1077 - I don't recall that she married a second time but
I'm unable to check this at present and someone else on SGM is bound
to know.
There is a letter from the pope to Alfonso in 1080 complaining about him
having formed a consanguinous marriage, and this is thought to refer to
his marriage to Agnes, accounting for the repudiation (well, that and
her childlessness). If so, Mateoda was presumably a descendant of one
of the handfull of Spanish princesses who married abroad.
Belatedly my memory stirred - Orderic Vitalis is the only source for
this supposed remarriage of Agnes, and he cannot be considered
absolutely reliable on the point.
He wrote (see book X, chapter 18 in _The Ecclesiastical History of
Orderic Vitalis_, edited by Marjorie Chibnall, 6 vols (Oxford, 1969-81)
V p. 306): "Defuncta coniuge sua celibem uitam actitare renuit, sed
Agnetem filiam Guillelmi Pictauorum ducis relictam Hildefonsi senioris
Galiciae regis uxorem duxit. Celebres nuptias cum ingenti tripudio
perpetrauit, sed sequenti anno multis lugentibus obiit" (trans: After
his wife died he [Helias of Maine] declined to lead a celibate life and
instead married Duke William of the Poitevins' daughter Agnes, the widow
of old King Alfonso of Galicia. The nuptials were performed with
extraordinary celebrations, but the following year to general mourning
he died).
As Chibnall noted (loc cit, note 5) "doubts about the identity of this
lady have never been satisfactorily resolved". King Alfonso repudiated
Agnes ca 1077, so that she would have been cooling her marital heels for
some 32 years before the alleged union with Helias, who died in 1110.
Opinion is divided on the question as to whether the second wife of
Helias might actually have been her half-sister and namesake, Agnes the
widow (in 1104) of King Pedro I of Aragón & Navarre. This seems far more
plausible to me.
Do you have a specific citation of Agnes being "widow" of Pedro in 1104?
Agnes ceases to appear in royal diplomas ca. 1097, and is replaced
there by a queen Bertha. It is certainly possible that Agnes was
repudiated by Pedro, and hence survived him, but I am unaware of any
contemporary source that provides such a detail (as we have with Alfonso).
I have seen it speculated (don't recall where) that perhaps the
chronological lapse was due to another marrriage in between - that after
Alfonso dumped her, she remarried to someone of lesser importance, and
when she was then widowed and remarried Helias, Orderic only saw fit to
mention the more important of her prior husbands.
taf
-
Peter Stewart
Re: Clarification on William III/V and William VI/VIII, coun
Todd A. Farmerie wrote:
The information about the younger Agnes having been widow of King Pedro
in 1104 was given by Alfred Richard in _Histoire des comtes de Poitou,
778-1204_, 2 vols (Paris, 1903) I p. 380. He gave no source for this, as
Robert Latouche remarked (without providing any to counter the alleged
fact) in _Histoire du comté du Maine pendant le Xe et le XIe siècle_,
BEHE 183 (Paris, 1910) p. 115 note 7.
I don't have many texts from 11/12th-century Spain to look for whatever
Richard might have relied on - the Aragonese royal cartulary, _Liber
feudorum maior_ edited by FM Rossell, doesn't contain any occurrence of
Agnes or Berta according to the index, and until tomorrow I can't get
hold of _Chronica hispana saeculi XII_ in the CCCM edition (which I
don't think would be helpful anyway).
Where does Berta occur as queen between ca 1097 and 1104? If there is no
actual record of Agnes having died before this time, I suppose the
circumstances with her would be similar to those of her elder
half-sister as presented by Orderic, remarrying after the death of her
first husband but called a widow although she had been repudiated first.
I find it hard to believe that Helias of Maine in 1109 would have
married "with extraordinary rejoicings" the elder Agnes when she must
have been at least sixty years old, whether or not she had taken yet
another husband after ca 1077.
Peter Stewart
Peter Stewart wrote:
As Chibnall noted (loc cit, note 5) "doubts about the identity of this
lady have never been satisfactorily resolved". King Alfonso repudiated
Agnes ca 1077, so that she would have been cooling her marital heels
for some 32 years before the alleged union with Helias, who died in
1110. Opinion is divided on the question as to whether the second wife
of Helias might actually have been her half-sister and namesake, Agnes
the widow (in 1104) of King Pedro I of Aragón & Navarre. This seems
far more plausible to me.
Do you have a specific citation of Agnes being "widow" of Pedro in 1104?
Agnes ceases to appear in royal diplomas ca. 1097, and is replaced
there by a queen Bertha. It is certainly possible that Agnes was
repudiated by Pedro, and hence survived him, but I am unaware of any
contemporary source that provides such a detail (as we have with Alfonso).
I have seen it speculated (don't recall where) that perhaps the
chronological lapse was due to another marrriage in between - that after
Alfonso dumped her, she remarried to someone of lesser importance, and
when she was then widowed and remarried Helias, Orderic only saw fit to
mention the more important of her prior husbands.
The information about the younger Agnes having been widow of King Pedro
in 1104 was given by Alfred Richard in _Histoire des comtes de Poitou,
778-1204_, 2 vols (Paris, 1903) I p. 380. He gave no source for this, as
Robert Latouche remarked (without providing any to counter the alleged
fact) in _Histoire du comté du Maine pendant le Xe et le XIe siècle_,
BEHE 183 (Paris, 1910) p. 115 note 7.
I don't have many texts from 11/12th-century Spain to look for whatever
Richard might have relied on - the Aragonese royal cartulary, _Liber
feudorum maior_ edited by FM Rossell, doesn't contain any occurrence of
Agnes or Berta according to the index, and until tomorrow I can't get
hold of _Chronica hispana saeculi XII_ in the CCCM edition (which I
don't think would be helpful anyway).
Where does Berta occur as queen between ca 1097 and 1104? If there is no
actual record of Agnes having died before this time, I suppose the
circumstances with her would be similar to those of her elder
half-sister as presented by Orderic, remarrying after the death of her
first husband but called a widow although she had been repudiated first.
I find it hard to believe that Helias of Maine in 1109 would have
married "with extraordinary rejoicings" the elder Agnes when she must
have been at least sixty years old, whether or not she had taken yet
another husband after ca 1077.
Peter Stewart
-
Peter Stewart
Re: Clarification on William III/V and William VI/VIII, coun
Peter Stewart wrote:
<snip>
To answer my own question at second hand - according to Szabolcs de
Vajay ['Ramire II le Moine, roi d'Aragon, et Agnès de Poitou dans
l'histoire et dans la légende' in _Mélanges offerts à René Crozet_,
edited by Pierre Gallais & Yves-Jean Riou, 2 vols (Poitiers, 1966) II p.
731], Agnes appeared as Pedro's queen from October 1094 and last
occurred on 9 May 1097.
For this Vajay cited _Colección diplomática de Pedro I de Aragón y
Navarra_ edited by A. Ubieto Arieta (Saragossa, 1951) nos. 14 p. 225 and
34 p. 257. King Pedro remarried on 16 August 1097 to Berta, whose family
origin is unknown (ibid nos. 35 & 36 pp. 258-261).
There doesn't seem to be a definite record of the death of this Agnes.
If the consanguinity noticed ca 1077 between her elder namesake and King
Alfonso VI of Castile had come about through their father, I suppose a
similar relationship might have been conveniently remembered ca 1097
between the younger half-sister and King Pedro.
Peter Stewart
<snip>
Where does Berta occur as queen between ca 1097 and 1104?
To answer my own question at second hand - according to Szabolcs de
Vajay ['Ramire II le Moine, roi d'Aragon, et Agnès de Poitou dans
l'histoire et dans la légende' in _Mélanges offerts à René Crozet_,
edited by Pierre Gallais & Yves-Jean Riou, 2 vols (Poitiers, 1966) II p.
731], Agnes appeared as Pedro's queen from October 1094 and last
occurred on 9 May 1097.
For this Vajay cited _Colección diplomática de Pedro I de Aragón y
Navarra_ edited by A. Ubieto Arieta (Saragossa, 1951) nos. 14 p. 225 and
34 p. 257. King Pedro remarried on 16 August 1097 to Berta, whose family
origin is unknown (ibid nos. 35 & 36 pp. 258-261).
There doesn't seem to be a definite record of the death of this Agnes.
If the consanguinity noticed ca 1077 between her elder namesake and King
Alfonso VI of Castile had come about through their father, I suppose a
similar relationship might have been conveniently remembered ca 1097
between the younger half-sister and King Pedro.
Peter Stewart
-
Nathaniel Taylor
Re: Clarification on William III/V and William VI/VIII, coun
In article <cO53d.35463$D7.2342@news-server.bigpond.net.au>,
Peter Stewart <p_m_stewart@msn.com> wrote:
You've already found more germane collections (there is a non-series of
published diplomataria of some of the various Aragonese kings now, of
varying quality), but as a Catalanofil I have to point out that the
Liber feudorum maior is hardly an Aragonese royal cartulary (Catalans
would be rather upset to hear it so described). Out of many hundreds,
only a dozen or so are from or concern Aragon (or Aragonese lands either
pre- or post-union), and these are just there to demonstrate the passage
of Aragon to the house of Barcelona, with the strange will of Alfonso I
(and its verious sequelae), accession documents & treaties of Ramiro the
monk with Ramon Berenguer IV, and the marriage settlement & wills of his
daughter Petronilla.
Nat Taylor
a genealogist's sketchbook:
http://home.earthlink.net/~nathanieltaylor/leaves/
Peter Stewart <p_m_stewart@msn.com> wrote:
I don't have many texts from 11/12th-century Spain to look for whatever
Richard might have relied on - the Aragonese royal cartulary, Liber
feudorum maior edited by FM Rossell, doesn't contain any occurrence of
Agnes or Berta according to the index, and until tomorrow I can't get
hold of Chronica hispana saeculi XII in the CCCM edition (which I
don't think would be helpful anyway).
You've already found more germane collections (there is a non-series of
published diplomataria of some of the various Aragonese kings now, of
varying quality), but as a Catalanofil I have to point out that the
Liber feudorum maior is hardly an Aragonese royal cartulary (Catalans
would be rather upset to hear it so described). Out of many hundreds,
only a dozen or so are from or concern Aragon (or Aragonese lands either
pre- or post-union), and these are just there to demonstrate the passage
of Aragon to the house of Barcelona, with the strange will of Alfonso I
(and its verious sequelae), accession documents & treaties of Ramiro the
monk with Ramon Berenguer IV, and the marriage settlement & wills of his
daughter Petronilla.
Nat Taylor
a genealogist's sketchbook:
http://home.earthlink.net/~nathanieltaylor/leaves/
-
Peter Stewart
Re: Clarification on William III/V and William VI/VIII, coun
Nathaniel Taylor wrote:
Yes, but given my meagre resources at home - I can't go out to a library
today - this seemed a reasonable place to start looking for Pedro & his
wives, since it was compiled late in the 12th century and especially
given the subtitle ('Cartulario real que se conserva en al Archivio de
la Corona de Aragón').
By the way, Vajay made an interesting suggestion in the article I cited
before, that Pedro's second queen, named Berta, might have been closely
related to his first wife Agnes of Poitou's cousin-by-marriage Berta of
Suza. This union may have been intended to contine Pedro's foreign
alliances pivoting around the Poitevin connection, in which case an
unrecorded divorce from Agnes is somewhat less plausible.
Peter Stewart
In article <cO53d.35463$D7.2342@news-server.bigpond.net.au>,
Peter Stewart <p_m_stewart@msn.com> wrote:
I don't have many texts from 11/12th-century Spain to look for whatever
Richard might have relied on - the Aragonese royal cartulary, Liber
feudorum maior edited by FM Rossell, doesn't contain any occurrence of
Agnes or Berta according to the index, and until tomorrow I can't get
hold of Chronica hispana saeculi XII in the CCCM edition (which I
don't think would be helpful anyway).
You've already found more germane collections (there is a non-series of
published diplomataria of some of the various Aragonese kings now, of
varying quality), but as a Catalanofil I have to point out that the
Liber feudorum maior is hardly an Aragonese royal cartulary (Catalans
would be rather upset to hear it so described). Out of many hundreds,
only a dozen or so are from or concern Aragon (or Aragonese lands either
pre- or post-union), and these are just there to demonstrate the passage
of Aragon to the house of Barcelona, with the strange will of Alfonso I
(and its verious sequelae), accession documents & treaties of Ramiro the
monk with Ramon Berenguer IV, and the marriage settlement & wills of his
daughter Petronilla.
Yes, but given my meagre resources at home - I can't go out to a library
today - this seemed a reasonable place to start looking for Pedro & his
wives, since it was compiled late in the 12th century and especially
given the subtitle ('Cartulario real que se conserva en al Archivio de
la Corona de Aragón').
By the way, Vajay made an interesting suggestion in the article I cited
before, that Pedro's second queen, named Berta, might have been closely
related to his first wife Agnes of Poitou's cousin-by-marriage Berta of
Suza. This union may have been intended to contine Pedro's foreign
alliances pivoting around the Poitevin connection, in which case an
unrecorded divorce from Agnes is somewhat less plausible.
Peter Stewart
-
Peter Stewart
Re: Clarification on William III/V and William VI/VIII, coun
Peter Stewart wrote:
<snip>
My memory is still sluggish - Helias of Maine had an aunt named Biota
(Berta), who was poisoned as a prisoner at Falaise in 1063, the wife of
Gautier III, count of Amiens & Vexin and titular count of Maine in her
right.
He also had a notable Italian connection through her sister Gersent,
whose second husband was Azzo II, margrave of Este.
I suppose it's remotely possible that Orderic got things muddled even
more than has been thought, including name and family as well as perhaps
chronology & identity, and that the widowed Spanish queen who married
Helias in 1109 was actually Berta and not either Agnes of Poitou -
although this stretches plausibility just as far in another direction.
Or is it known for certain that Queen Berta died around 1110, instead of
leaving Spain then & possibly marrying again?
Peter Stewart
<snip>
By the way, Vajay made an interesting suggestion in the article I cited
before, that Pedro's second queen, named Berta, might have been closely
related to his first wife Agnes of Poitou's cousin-by-marriage Berta of
Suza. This union may have been intended to contine Pedro's foreign
alliances pivoting around the Poitevin connection, in which case an
unrecorded divorce from Agnes is somewhat less plausible.
My memory is still sluggish - Helias of Maine had an aunt named Biota
(Berta), who was poisoned as a prisoner at Falaise in 1063, the wife of
Gautier III, count of Amiens & Vexin and titular count of Maine in her
right.
He also had a notable Italian connection through her sister Gersent,
whose second husband was Azzo II, margrave of Este.
I suppose it's remotely possible that Orderic got things muddled even
more than has been thought, including name and family as well as perhaps
chronology & identity, and that the widowed Spanish queen who married
Helias in 1109 was actually Berta and not either Agnes of Poitou -
although this stretches plausibility just as far in another direction.
Or is it known for certain that Queen Berta died around 1110, instead of
leaving Spain then & possibly marrying again?
Peter Stewart
-
Nathaniel Taylor
Re: Clarification on William III/V and William VI/VIII, coun
In article <il83d.35627$D7.30182@news-server.bigpond.net.au>,
Peter Stewart <p_m_stewart@msn.com> wrote:
Of course--I was merely writing out of pique that you have a copy of the
LFM and I, alas, do not!
Nat Taylor
a genealogist's sketchbook:
http://home.earthlink.net/~nathanieltaylor/leaves/
Peter Stewart <p_m_stewart@msn.com> wrote:
Nathaniel Taylor wrote:
You've already found more germane collections (there is a non-series of
published diplomataria of some of the various Aragonese kings now, of
varying quality), but as a Catalanofil I have to point out that the
Liber feudorum maior is hardly an Aragonese royal cartulary (Catalans
would be rather upset to hear it so described). Out of many hundreds,
only a dozen or so are from or concern Aragon (or Aragonese lands either
pre- or post-union), and these are just there to demonstrate the passage
of Aragon to the house of Barcelona, with the strange will of Alfonso I
(and its verious sequelae), accession documents & treaties of Ramiro the
monk with Ramon Berenguer IV, and the marriage settlement & wills of his
daughter Petronilla.
Yes, but given my meagre resources at home - I can't go out to a library
today - this seemed a reasonable place to start looking for Pedro & his
wives, since it was compiled late in the 12th century and especially
given the subtitle ('Cartulario real que se conserva en al Archivio de
la Corona de Aragón').
Of course--I was merely writing out of pique that you have a copy of the
LFM and I, alas, do not!
Nat Taylor
a genealogist's sketchbook:
http://home.earthlink.net/~nathanieltaylor/leaves/
-
Peter Stewart
Re: Clarification on William III/V and William VI/VIII, coun
Nathaniel Taylor wrote:
Console yourself that I had the tedious chore of cutting the pages, Nat,
while you can dip into a library copy at leisure. I also had the
tiresome expense of buying the set, because no library in Australia
holds it...O for the (comparative) bounty of American university
collections!
Peter Stewart
In article <il83d.35627$D7.30182@news-server.bigpond.net.au>,
Peter Stewart <p_m_stewart@msn.com> wrote:
Nathaniel Taylor wrote:
You've already found more germane collections (there is a non-series of
published diplomataria of some of the various Aragonese kings now, of
varying quality), but as a Catalanofil I have to point out that the
Liber feudorum maior is hardly an Aragonese royal cartulary (Catalans
would be rather upset to hear it so described). Out of many hundreds,
only a dozen or so are from or concern Aragon (or Aragonese lands either
pre- or post-union), and these are just there to demonstrate the passage
of Aragon to the house of Barcelona, with the strange will of Alfonso I
(and its verious sequelae), accession documents & treaties of Ramiro the
monk with Ramon Berenguer IV, and the marriage settlement & wills of his
daughter Petronilla.
Yes, but given my meagre resources at home - I can't go out to a library
today - this seemed a reasonable place to start looking for Pedro & his
wives, since it was compiled late in the 12th century and especially
given the subtitle ('Cartulario real que se conserva en al Archivio de
la Corona de Aragón').
Of course--I was merely writing out of pique that you have a copy of the
LFM and I, alas, do not!
Console yourself that I had the tedious chore of cutting the pages, Nat,
while you can dip into a library copy at leisure. I also had the
tiresome expense of buying the set, because no library in Australia
holds it...O for the (comparative) bounty of American university
collections!
Peter Stewart
-
Todd A. Farmerie
Re: Clarification on William III/V and William VI/VIII, coun
[combining posts]
Peter Stewart wrote:
[and from the followup]
This is the case, but to then conclude from this that her circumstances
would be similar to her older namesake is to read too much into it.
There does not appear to be a chronicle source that provides this kind
of detail, either that she died or was repudiated. The queen just
disappears from view, and six months later Pedro remarries. I have to
wonder if the reference to Agnes being a widow in 1104 is based on
nothing more than her having been known to be Pedro's wife, on her
having been thought to marry Helias (and hence survived Pedro), and 1104
being the date of Pedro's death.
This papal letter is quoted in:
Canal Sánchez-Pagín, José Maria. Jimena Muñoz, Amiga de Alfonso VI.
Anuario de Estudios Medievales. 21:11-40 (1991).
I strongly suspect (if this consanguinity is correctly interpreted) that
it did come through Alfonso's father - the Kings of Leon appear to have
married locally and kept their daughters at home, and Sancha's maternal
family seems of only local notoriety. It is among Fernando's ancestry
that we find a couple marriages out of the immediate region - Sancha
Sanchez of Castile to Berenger Ramon of Barcelona, and Urraca of Navarre
to Guillem Sanchez of Gascony, plus some other marriages of the
Ribagorza kin. However, I think a connection through the paternal line
of Agnes is unlikely - we have a pretty good grip on her paternal
ancestry for several generations, and nothing seems promising. (For
what it's worth, and in this case, I would suggest not much, it is
suggested that Beatrix, later wife of Alfonso, was daughter of William
VII/IX, which suggestion seems mere speculation, but would also point
away from a paternal connection.)
[and from a third post]
Vajay goes into more detail on this hypothesis in another article:
Vajay, Szabolcs de. Contribution a l'Histoire de l'Attitude des Royaumes
Pireneens dans la Querelle des Investitures: de l'Origine de Berthe,
Reine d'Aragon et de Navarre. in Estudios Genealogicos, Heraldicos y
Nobilarios en Honor de Vicente Cadenas y Vicent. 2:375-402 (1978).
However, his arguments are solely onomastic and political, IIRC, there
being nothing to directly suggest a relationship.
Back to the "which Agnes" question, I think either interpretation leaves
much to be explained.
taf
Peter Stewart wrote:
If there is no
actual record of Agnes having died before this time, I suppose the
circumstances with her would be similar to those of her elder
half-sister as presented by Orderic, remarrying after the death of her
first husband but called a widow although she had been repudiated
first.
[and from the followup]
There doesn't seem to be a definite record of the death of this Agnes.
This is the case, but to then conclude from this that her circumstances
would be similar to her older namesake is to read too much into it.
There does not appear to be a chronicle source that provides this kind
of detail, either that she died or was repudiated. The queen just
disappears from view, and six months later Pedro remarries. I have to
wonder if the reference to Agnes being a widow in 1104 is based on
nothing more than her having been known to be Pedro's wife, on her
having been thought to marry Helias (and hence survived Pedro), and 1104
being the date of Pedro's death.
If the consanguinity noticed ca 1077 between her elder namesake and King
Alfonso VI of Castile had come about through their father,
This papal letter is quoted in:
Canal Sánchez-Pagín, José Maria. Jimena Muñoz, Amiga de Alfonso VI.
Anuario de Estudios Medievales. 21:11-40 (1991).
I suppose a
similar relationship might have been conveniently remembered ca 1097
between the younger half-sister and King Pedro.
I strongly suspect (if this consanguinity is correctly interpreted) that
it did come through Alfonso's father - the Kings of Leon appear to have
married locally and kept their daughters at home, and Sancha's maternal
family seems of only local notoriety. It is among Fernando's ancestry
that we find a couple marriages out of the immediate region - Sancha
Sanchez of Castile to Berenger Ramon of Barcelona, and Urraca of Navarre
to Guillem Sanchez of Gascony, plus some other marriages of the
Ribagorza kin. However, I think a connection through the paternal line
of Agnes is unlikely - we have a pretty good grip on her paternal
ancestry for several generations, and nothing seems promising. (For
what it's worth, and in this case, I would suggest not much, it is
suggested that Beatrix, later wife of Alfonso, was daughter of William
VII/IX, which suggestion seems mere speculation, but would also point
away from a paternal connection.)
[and from a third post]
By the way, Vajay made an interesting suggestion in the article I cited
before, that Pedro's second queen, named Berta, might have been closely
related to his first wife Agnes of Poitou's cousin-by-marriage Berta of
Suza. This union may have been intended to contine Pedro's foreign
alliances pivoting around the Poitevin connection, in which case an
unrecorded divorce from Agnes is somewhat less plausible.
Vajay goes into more detail on this hypothesis in another article:
Vajay, Szabolcs de. Contribution a l'Histoire de l'Attitude des Royaumes
Pireneens dans la Querelle des Investitures: de l'Origine de Berthe,
Reine d'Aragon et de Navarre. in Estudios Genealogicos, Heraldicos y
Nobilarios en Honor de Vicente Cadenas y Vicent. 2:375-402 (1978).
However, his arguments are solely onomastic and political, IIRC, there
being nothing to directly suggest a relationship.
Back to the "which Agnes" question, I think either interpretation leaves
much to be explained.
taf
-
Peter Stewart
Re: Clarification on William III/V and William VI/VIII, coun
Comments interspersed:
Todd A. Farmerie wrote:
Yes, this was careless n my part: I should have written that the
circumstances of the younger sister would be similar to those of her
elder namesake if we knew that the second Queen Agnes had NOT died
before King Pedro remarried, rather than just that we can't know when
she did die.
Quite possibly Alfred Richard leapt to a wrong conclusion in this way,
but he might have found confirmation in one or two Spanish sources that
Orderic was almost certainly misinformed - see below.
Thanks - from its ordering in the papal register this letter has been
dated to 27 June 1080, and King Alfonso VI's next marriage is usually
said to have taken place on 8 May 1081, so the divorce presumably was
effected between those dates. Do you know where "ca 1077" given by
Chibnall & others for his repudiating the elder Agnes of Poitou came from?
Maybe the connection came about through Ava of Ribagorza, who was
Alfonso VI's great-grandmother twice over - her mother was from Gascony.
However, the paternal granmother of Agnes and some others in her
background could have had Iberian ancestors for all I know. Are you sure
enough to rule these out?
Orderic is up against a few contradictng Spanish sources, including one
that was better placed to get the matter right, and probably cared more too.
José Maria Canal Sánchez-Pagín, in the article cited by Todd, noted that
Sandoval thought Agnes of Poitou had died on 6 June 1078 and that she
was buried in the Benedictine monastery at Sahagún, relying on a
document known as 'Tumba Negro de Santiago', on the provenance of which
some doubt has been cast. A quotation is given from 'Anales
Compostelanos', which as noted were compiled somewhat later and at a
distance from León, as follows:
"Era MCXXXV (año 1097) regina Agens VII Idus Iunii".
Whether or not the death was correctly placed on 6 June in 1078 or 1097,
these sources would be not be definite enough proof on their own to
counter Orderic, but there is an earlier & better source that
Sánchez-Pagín and others have apparently overlooked, and which Alfred
Richard may have known (although it was not published before his work).
'Chronica Naierensis' edited by Juan Estévez Sola, _Chronica hispana
saeculi XII_, part 2, CCCM 71A (Turnhout, 1995), book III chapter 22, p.
178 states:
"Rex autem iste quinque uxores legitimas noscitur habuisse: prima
Agnetem, que obiit era MCXXXVI" (this king [Alfonso VI] is known to have
had five lawful spouses: first Agnes, who died in 1098). NB the
difference between era 1135 (AD 1097) and 1136 (1098) is a single stroke
of the pen, or merely the legibility of one, and not at all uncommon as
medieval dating anomalies go).
The rest of this passage is a fairly detailed and accurate account of
Alfonso's other wives and immediate descendants. I think it provides
sufficient evidence to conclude that Orderic's identification of the
woman who married Helias of Maine in 1109 is unreliable, even if Alfred
Richard may have made a rough-&-ready guess in attempting to correct him.
Peter Stewart
Todd A. Farmerie wrote:
[combining posts]
Peter Stewart wrote:
If there is no
actual record of Agnes having died before this time, I suppose the
circumstances with her would be similar to those of her elder
half-sister as presented by Orderic, remarrying after the death of her
first husband but called a widow although she had been repudiated
first.
[and from the followup]
There doesn't seem to be a definite record of the death of this Agnes.
This is the case, but to then conclude from this that her circumstances
would be similar to her older namesake is to read too much into it.
Yes, this was careless n my part: I should have written that the
circumstances of the younger sister would be similar to those of her
elder namesake if we knew that the second Queen Agnes had NOT died
before King Pedro remarried, rather than just that we can't know when
she did die.
There does not appear to be a chronicle source that provides this kind
of detail, either that she died or was repudiated. The queen just
disappears from view, and six months later Pedro remarries. I have to
wonder if the reference to Agnes being a widow in 1104 is based on
nothing more than her having been known to be Pedro's wife, on her
having been thought to marry Helias (and hence survived Pedro), and 1104
being the date of Pedro's death.
Quite possibly Alfred Richard leapt to a wrong conclusion in this way,
but he might have found confirmation in one or two Spanish sources that
Orderic was almost certainly misinformed - see below.
If the consanguinity noticed ca 1077 between her elder namesake and King
Alfonso VI of Castile had come about through their father,
This papal letter is quoted in:
Canal Sánchez-Pagín, José Maria. Jimena Muñoz, Amiga de AlfonsoVI.
Anuario de Estudios Medievales. 21:11-40 (1991).
Thanks - from its ordering in the papal register this letter has been
dated to 27 June 1080, and King Alfonso VI's next marriage is usually
said to have taken place on 8 May 1081, so the divorce presumably was
effected between those dates. Do you know where "ca 1077" given by
Chibnall & others for his repudiating the elder Agnes of Poitou came from?
I suppose a
similar relationship might have been conveniently remembered ca 1097
between the younger half-sister and King Pedro.
I strongly suspect (if this consanguinity is correctly interpreted) that
it did come through Alfonso's father - the Kings of Leon appear to have
married locally and kept their daughters at home, and Sancha's maternal
family seems of only local notoriety. It is among Fernando's ancestry
that we find a couple marriages out of the immediate region - Sancha
Sanchez of Castile to Berenger Ramon of Barcelona, and Urraca of Navarre
to Guillem Sanchez of Gascony, plus some other marriages of the
Ribagorza kin. However, I think a connection through the paternal line
of Agnes is unlikely - we have a pretty good grip on her paternal
ancestry for several generations, and nothing seems promising. (For
what it's worth, and in this case, I would suggest not much, it is
suggested that Beatrix, later wife of Alfonso, was daughter of William
VII/IX, which suggestion seems mere speculation, but would also point
away from a paternal connection.)
Maybe the connection came about through Ava of Ribagorza, who was
Alfonso VI's great-grandmother twice over - her mother was from Gascony.
However, the paternal granmother of Agnes and some others in her
background could have had Iberian ancestors for all I know. Are you sure
enough to rule these out?
[and from a third post]
By the way, Vajay made an interesting suggestion in the article I cited
before, that Pedro's second queen, named Berta, might have been closely
related to his first wife Agnes of Poitou's cousin-by-marriage Bertaof
Suza. This union may have been intended to contine Pedro's foreign
alliances pivoting around the Poitevin connection, in which case an
unrecorded divorce from Agnes is somewhat less plausible.
Vajay goes into more detail on this hypothesis in another article:
Vajay, Szabolcs de. Contribution a l'Histoire de l'Attitude des Royaumes
Pireneens dans la Querelle des Investitures: de l'Origine de Berthe,
Reine d'Aragon et de Navarre. in Estudios Genealogicos, Heraldicos y
Nobilarios en Honor de Vicente Cadenas y Vicent. 2:375-402 (1978).
However, his arguments are solely onomastic and political, IIRC, there
being nothing to directly suggest a relationship.
Back to the "which Agnes" question, I think either interpretation leaves
much to be explained.
Orderic is up against a few contradictng Spanish sources, including one
that was better placed to get the matter right, and probably cared more too.
José Maria Canal Sánchez-Pagín, in the article cited by Todd, noted that
Sandoval thought Agnes of Poitou had died on 6 June 1078 and that she
was buried in the Benedictine monastery at Sahagún, relying on a
document known as 'Tumba Negro de Santiago', on the provenance of which
some doubt has been cast. A quotation is given from 'Anales
Compostelanos', which as noted were compiled somewhat later and at a
distance from León, as follows:
"Era MCXXXV (año 1097) regina Agens VII Idus Iunii".
Whether or not the death was correctly placed on 6 June in 1078 or 1097,
these sources would be not be definite enough proof on their own to
counter Orderic, but there is an earlier & better source that
Sánchez-Pagín and others have apparently overlooked, and which Alfred
Richard may have known (although it was not published before his work).
'Chronica Naierensis' edited by Juan Estévez Sola, _Chronica hispana
saeculi XII_, part 2, CCCM 71A (Turnhout, 1995), book III chapter 22, p.
178 states:
"Rex autem iste quinque uxores legitimas noscitur habuisse: prima
Agnetem, que obiit era MCXXXVI" (this king [Alfonso VI] is known to have
had five lawful spouses: first Agnes, who died in 1098). NB the
difference between era 1135 (AD 1097) and 1136 (1098) is a single stroke
of the pen, or merely the legibility of one, and not at all uncommon as
medieval dating anomalies go).
The rest of this passage is a fairly detailed and accurate account of
Alfonso's other wives and immediate descendants. I think it provides
sufficient evidence to conclude that Orderic's identification of the
woman who married Helias of Maine in 1109 is unreliable, even if Alfred
Richard may have made a rough-&-ready guess in attempting to correct him.
Peter Stewart
-
Peter Stewart
Re: Clarification on William III/V and William VI/VIII, coun
Peter Stewart wrote:
Make that "great-great-grandmother".
Peter Stewart
Maybe the connection came about through Ava of Ribagorza, who was
Alfonso VI's great-grandmother twice over
Make that "great-great-grandmother".
Peter Stewart
-
Todd A. Farmerie
Re: Clarification on William III/V and William VI/VIII, coun
Peter Stewart wrote:
I think that is the last year she appears as queen, although I am not
sure of this.
This is what I had in mind when I mentioned Ribagorza. I had forgotten
that Alfonso's mother came from this line (I guess I should have said
that I think the connection comes from the Navarre/Castile part of the
pedigree, rather than the Leon part). While we are at it, let's not
forget that the maternity of Vermudo II is not as certain as most people
present it.
I certainly don't see anything back there that looks promising. Do you
have something specific in mind? How far back should we be looking?
Considering Alfonso's father married his second cousin, how high would
the bar have been raised in one generation?
To be precise, he suggested that Bertha was daughter of Peter, Count of
Aosta, by Agnes of Aquitaine, daughter of William V/VII.
Would you mind posting the rest, if it's not too long? What is known
about the date of this chronicle's composition?
Just to add another fly to the soup, earlier you suggested that Orderic
might have gotten the name confused, and that it might have been Pedro's
widow Bertha who married Helias. If we are going to suggest such
alternatives, here is another - that he got the name confused and it was
actually Beatrice, last wife and widow of Alfonso, who (perhaps
coincidentally, perhaps not, as I don't recall his basis for the
assignment) Vajay identifies tentatively (and later not so tentatively)
as a daughter of William VII/IX. She would have been a generation
younger, just widowed from Alfonso, and daughter, as described, of a
William.
taf
Comments interspersed:
Todd A. Farmerie wrote:
If the consanguinity noticed ca 1077 between her elder namesake and
King
Alfonso VI of Castile had come about through their father,
This papal letter is quoted in:
Canal Sánchez-Pagín, José Maria. Jimena Muñoz, Amiga de AlfonsoVI.
Anuario de Estudios Medievales. 21:11-40 (1991).
Thanks - from its ordering in the papal register this letter has been
dated to 27 June 1080, and King Alfonso VI's next marriage is usually
said to have taken place on 8 May 1081, so the divorce presumably was
effected between those dates. Do you know where "ca 1077" given by
Chibnall & others for his repudiating the elder Agnes of Poitou came from?
I think that is the last year she appears as queen, although I am not
sure of this.
I suppose a
similar relationship might have been conveniently remembered ca 1097
between the younger half-sister and King Pedro.
I strongly suspect (if this consanguinity is correctly interpreted)
that it did come through Alfonso's father - the Kings of Leon appear
to have married locally and kept their daughters at home, and Sancha's
maternal family seems of only local notoriety. It is among Fernando's
ancestry that we find a couple marriages out of the immediate region -
Sancha Sanchez of Castile to Berenger Ramon of Barcelona, and Urraca
of Navarre to Guillem Sanchez of Gascony, plus some other marriages of
the Ribagorza kin. However, I think a connection through the paternal
line of Agnes is unlikely - we have a pretty good grip on her paternal
ancestry for several generations, and nothing seems promising. (For
what it's worth, and in this case, I would suggest not much, it is
suggested that Beatrix, later wife of Alfonso, was daughter of William
VII/IX, which suggestion seems mere speculation, but would also point
away from a paternal connection.)
Maybe the connection came about through Ava of Ribagorza, who was
Alfonso VI's great-grandmother twice over - her mother was from Gascony.
This is what I had in mind when I mentioned Ribagorza. I had forgotten
that Alfonso's mother came from this line (I guess I should have said
that I think the connection comes from the Navarre/Castile part of the
pedigree, rather than the Leon part). While we are at it, let's not
forget that the maternity of Vermudo II is not as certain as most people
present it.
However, the paternal granmother of Agnes and some others in her
background could have had Iberian ancestors for all I know. Are you sure
enough to rule these out?
I certainly don't see anything back there that looks promising. Do you
have something specific in mind? How far back should we be looking?
Considering Alfonso's father married his second cousin, how high would
the bar have been raised in one generation?
By the way, Vajay made an interesting suggestion in the article I
cited
before, that Pedro's second queen, named Berta, might have been
closely
related to his first wife Agnes of Poitou's cousin-by-marriage Bertaof
Suza. This union may have been intended to contine Pedro's foreign
alliances pivoting around the Poitevin connection, in which case an
unrecorded divorce from Agnes is somewhat less plausible.
Vajay goes into more detail on this hypothesis in another article:
Vajay, Szabolcs de. Contribution a l'Histoire de l'Attitude des
Royaumes Pireneens dans la Querelle des Investitures: de l'Origine de
Berthe, Reine d'Aragon et de Navarre. in Estudios Genealogicos,
Heraldicos y Nobilarios en Honor de Vicente Cadenas y Vicent.
2:375-402 (1978).
To be precise, he suggested that Bertha was daughter of Peter, Count of
Aosta, by Agnes of Aquitaine, daughter of William V/VII.
Back to the "which Agnes" question, I think either interpretation
leaves much to be explained.
Orderic is up against a few contradictng Spanish sources, including one
that was better placed to get the matter right, and probably cared more
too.
José Maria Canal Sánchez-Pagín, in the article cited by Todd, noted that
Sandoval thought Agnes of Poitou had died on 6 June 1078 and that she
was buried in the Benedictine monastery at Sahagún, relying on a
document known as 'Tumba Negro de Santiago', on the provenance of which
some doubt has been cast. A quotation is given from 'Anales
Compostelanos', which as noted were compiled somewhat later and at a
distance from León, as follows:
"Era MCXXXV (año 1097) regina Agens VII Idus Iunii".
Whether or not the death was correctly placed on 6 June in 1078 or 1097,
these sources would be not be definite enough proof on their own to
counter Orderic, but there is an earlier & better source that
Sánchez-Pagín and others have apparently overlooked, and which Alfred
Richard may have known (although it was not published before his work).
'Chronica Naierensis' edited by Juan Estévez Sola, _Chronica hispana
saeculi XII_, part 2, CCCM 71A (Turnhout, 1995), book III chapter 22, p.
178 states:
"Rex autem iste quinque uxores legitimas noscitur habuisse: prima
Agnetem, que obiit era MCXXXVI" (this king [Alfonso VI] is known to have
had five lawful spouses: first Agnes, who died in 1098). NB the
difference between era 1135 (AD 1097) and 1136 (1098) is a single stroke
of the pen, or merely the legibility of one, and not at all uncommon as
medieval dating anomalies go).
The rest of this passage is a fairly detailed and accurate account of
Alfonso's other wives and immediate descendants.
Would you mind posting the rest, if it's not too long? What is known
about the date of this chronicle's composition?
I think it provides
sufficient evidence to conclude that Orderic's identification of the
woman who married Helias of Maine in 1109 is unreliable, even if Alfred
Richard may have made a rough-&-ready guess in attempting to correct him.
Just to add another fly to the soup, earlier you suggested that Orderic
might have gotten the name confused, and that it might have been Pedro's
widow Bertha who married Helias. If we are going to suggest such
alternatives, here is another - that he got the name confused and it was
actually Beatrice, last wife and widow of Alfonso, who (perhaps
coincidentally, perhaps not, as I don't recall his basis for the
assignment) Vajay identifies tentatively (and later not so tentatively)
as a daughter of William VII/IX. She would have been a generation
younger, just widowed from Alfonso, and daughter, as described, of a
William.
taf
-
Peter Stewart
Re: Clarification on William III/V and William VI/VIII, coun
Todd A. Farmerie wrote:
<snip>
I was thinking absent-mindedly of a pet theory of mine, that doesn't
bear repeating here - and on reflection your idea of a Ribagorza
connection being the most likely source of consanguinity is far more
promising anyway.
<snip>
I shall post this in a new thread, as it will almost certainly lead to
discussion of the unrelated - and perpetual - question about Zaida and
whether she was the wife of Alfonso VI named Isabella or only his
concubine who happened to be baptised with the same name.
Well, whatever her parentage Beatrice has the advantage over the other
candidates that we are told she returned to her own home after the death
of Alfonso in mid-1109, so if she went back as a widowed queen to the
ducal court of Aquitaine she may have been an extrememly attractive
match for the parvenu Helias of Maine. The timing is also right for
Orderic's version of events.
Peter Stewart
Peter Stewart wrote:
<snip>
Maybe the connection came about through Ava of Ribagorza, who was
Alfonso VI's great-[great-]grandmother twice over - her mother was from Gascony.
This is what I had in mind when I mentioned Ribagorza. I had forgotten
that Alfonso's mother came from this line (I guess I should have said
that I think the connection comes from the Navarre/Castile part of the
pedigree, rather than the Leon part). While we are at it, let's not
forget that the maternity of Vermudo II is not as certain as most people
present it.
However, the paternal granmother of Agnes and some others in her
background could have had Iberian ancestors for all I know. Are you
sure enough to rule these out?
I certainly don't see anything back there that looks promising. Do you
have something specific in mind? How far back should we be looking?
Considering Alfonso's father married his second cousin, how high would
the bar have been raised in one generation?
I was thinking absent-mindedly of a pet theory of mine, that doesn't
bear repeating here - and on reflection your idea of a Ribagorza
connection being the most likely source of consanguinity is far more
promising anyway.
<snip>
The rest of this passage is a fairly detailed and accurate account of
Alfonso's other wives and immediate descendants.
Would you mind posting the rest, if it's not too long? What is known
about the date of this chronicle's composition?
I shall post this in a new thread, as it will almost certainly lead to
discussion of the unrelated - and perpetual - question about Zaida and
whether she was the wife of Alfonso VI named Isabella or only his
concubine who happened to be baptised with the same name.
I think it provides sufficient evidence to conclude that Orderic's
identification of the woman who married Helias of Maine in 1109 is
unreliable, even if Alfred Richard may have made a rough-&-ready guess
in attempting to correct him.
Just to add another fly to the soup, earlier you suggested that Orderic
might have gotten the name confused, and that it might have been Pedro's
widow Bertha who married Helias. If we are going to suggest such
alternatives, here is another - that he got the name confused and it was
actually Beatrice, last wife and widow of Alfonso, who (perhaps
coincidentally, perhaps not, as I don't recall his basis for the
assignment) Vajay identifies tentatively (and later not so tentatively)
as a daughter of William VII/IX. She would have been a generation
younger, just widowed from Alfonso, and daughter, as described, of a
William.
Well, whatever her parentage Beatrice has the advantage over the other
candidates that we are told she returned to her own home after the death
of Alfonso in mid-1109, so if she went back as a widowed queen to the
ducal court of Aquitaine she may have been an extrememly attractive
match for the parvenu Helias of Maine. The timing is also right for
Orderic's version of events.
Peter Stewart
-
Todd A. Farmerie
Re: Clarification on William III/V and William VI/VIII, coun
As if we weren't confused enough already, something else just occured to
me.
Peter Stewart wrote:
Agnes wife of Pedro disappears between 9 May and 16 August 1097. "VII
Idus Iunii" (from the Anales Compostelanos) falls right between those
dates. Could it be that it was the Queen of Aragon who died on this
date, and it has mistakenly been applied to the repudiated Queen of Leon
by the author of the Chronica Naierensis?
taf
me.
Peter Stewart wrote:
A quotation is given from 'Anales
Compostelanos', which as noted were compiled somewhat later and at a
distance from León, as follows:
"Era MCXXXV (año 1097) regina Agens VII Idus Iunii".
Whether or not the death was correctly placed on 6 June in 1078 or 1097,
these sources would be not be definite enough proof on their own to
counter Orderic, but there is an earlier & better source that
Sánchez-Pagín and others have apparently overlooked, and which Alfred
Richard may have known (although it was not published before his work).
'Chronica Naierensis' edited by Juan Estévez Sola, _Chronica hispana
saeculi XII_, part 2, CCCM 71A (Turnhout, 1995), book III chapter 22, p.
178 states:
"Rex autem iste quinque uxores legitimas noscitur habuisse: prima
Agnetem, que obiit era MCXXXVI" (this king [Alfonso VI] is known to have
had five lawful spouses: first Agnes, who died in 1098). NB the
difference between era 1135 (AD 1097) and 1136 (1098) is a single stroke
of the pen, or merely the legibility of one, and not at all uncommon as
medieval dating anomalies go).
Agnes wife of Pedro disappears between 9 May and 16 August 1097. "VII
Idus Iunii" (from the Anales Compostelanos) falls right between those
dates. Could it be that it was the Queen of Aragon who died on this
date, and it has mistakenly been applied to the repudiated Queen of Leon
by the author of the Chronica Naierensis?
taf
-
Todd A. Farmerie
Re: Clarification on William III/V and William VI/VIII, coun
Peter Stewart wrote:
Let me just add that Szabolcs de Vajay has speculated that they had a
daughter Agnes, who was the second (childless) wife of Ramiro I of
Aragon. I do not know the basis for this, but were it the case, it
would present a curious phenomenon, with first cousins both named Agnes
marrying grandfather and grandson.
Elsewhere, she is speculated to have been de la Marche.
I have never seen her fate addressed.
taf
Almodis was mother of William the Fat, who died after 6 September
(possibly on 15 December) 1038, and whose wife Eustacia was still
living at that time. Her family is not known.
Let me just add that Szabolcs de Vajay has speculated that they had a
daughter Agnes, who was the second (childless) wife of Ramiro I of
Aragon. I do not know the basis for this, but were it the case, it
would present a curious phenomenon, with first cousins both named Agnes
marrying grandfather and grandson.
William VI/VIII married 2nd Mateoda/Mathilde. From this mariage came
Agnes of Poitou, the wife of both Alfonso VI of Leon and Castile and
Helias Count of Maine. As with Garsende of Periogord, can anyone
enlighten me on Mateoda/Mathilde regarding her time frames, ascendacy?;
Mateoda is _speculated_ to have belonged to the family of the
viscounts of Thouars.
Elsewhere, she is speculated to have been de la Marche.
She was repudiated after May 1068 and then
disappears from the record. Her daughter Agnes was divorced by King
Alfonso VI in 1077 - I don't recall that she married a second time but
I'm unable to check this at present and someone else on SGM is bound
to know.
I have never seen her fate addressed.
taf
-
Peter Stewart
Re: Clarification on William III/V and William VI/VIII, coun
Todd A. Farmerie wrote:
Yes, it's certainly possible - when I get round to transcribing the
whole chapter & cheecking, I think there may be a similar instance of
confusion between two other homonymous ladies.
The work was apparently written by ca 1160, with perhaps a few details
added a bit later, and it doesn't necessarily provide independent
evidence on any particular point about Alfonso VI's family, probably
drawing on Pelayo and some other histories in circulation at that time.
A mix-up between two queens named Agnes would not be implausible - for
nuisance value to chroniclers, Pedro and Alfonso also had wives named
Berta in common.
The chief interest in the passage is in showing that Pelayo (I suppose)
was plainly understood by contemporaries to mean that Queen Isabella was
not the same person as Zaida.
Peter Stewart
As if we weren't confused enough already, something else just occured to
me.
Peter Stewart wrote:
A quotation is given from 'Anales Compostelanos', which as noted were
compiled somewhat later and at a distance from León, as follows:
"Era MCXXXV (año 1097) regina Agens VII Idus Iunii".
Whether or not the death was correctly placed on 6 June in 1078 or
1097, these sources would be not be definite enough proof on their own
to counter Orderic, but there is an earlier & better source that
Sánchez-Pagín and others have apparently overlooked, and which Alfred
Richard may have known (although it was not published before his
work). 'Chronica Naierensis' edited by Juan Estévez Sola, _Chronica
hispana saeculi XII_, part 2, CCCM 71A (Turnhout, 1995), book III
chapter 22, p. 178 states:
"Rex autem iste quinque uxores legitimas noscitur habuisse: prima
Agnetem, que obiit era MCXXXVI" (this king [Alfonso VI] is known to
have had five lawful spouses: first Agnes, who died in 1098). NB the
difference between era 1135 (AD 1097) and 1136 (1098) is a single
stroke of the pen, or merely the legibility of one, and not at all
uncommon as medieval dating anomalies go).
Agnes wife of Pedro disappears between 9 May and 16 August 1097. "VII
Idus Iunii" (from the Anales Compostelanos) falls right between those
dates. Could it be that it was the Queen of Aragon who died on this
date, and it has mistakenly been applied to the repudiated Queen of Leon
by the author of the Chronica Naierensis?
Yes, it's certainly possible - when I get round to transcribing the
whole chapter & cheecking, I think there may be a similar instance of
confusion between two other homonymous ladies.
The work was apparently written by ca 1160, with perhaps a few details
added a bit later, and it doesn't necessarily provide independent
evidence on any particular point about Alfonso VI's family, probably
drawing on Pelayo and some other histories in circulation at that time.
A mix-up between two queens named Agnes would not be implausible - for
nuisance value to chroniclers, Pedro and Alfonso also had wives named
Berta in common.
The chief interest in the passage is in showing that Pelayo (I suppose)
was plainly understood by contemporaries to mean that Queen Isabella was
not the same person as Zaida.
Peter Stewart
-
Peter Stewart
Re: Clarification on William III/V and William VI/VIII, coun
Peter Stewart wrote:
Bernard Reilly affirmed the confusion as suggested by Todd - in _The
Kingdom of León-Castilla under King Alfonso VI, 1065-1109_ (Princeton,
1988) p. 105 note 48 he stated: "The date of her death has frequently
been given as June 6, 1078, based on a garbled notice in ...Annales
Compostellaní...The date given there is actually 1098 and the reference
is to her half-sister of the same name who was married to Pedro I of
Aragón."
Peter Stewart
Todd A. Farmerie wrote:
As if we weren't confused enough already, something else just occured
to me.
Peter Stewart wrote:
A quotation is given from 'Anales Compostelanos', which as noted were
compiled somewhat later and at a distance from León, as follows:
"Era MCXXXV (año 1097) regina Agens VII Idus Iunii".
Whether or not the death was correctly placed on 6 June in 1078 or
1097, these sources would be not be definite enough proof on their
own to counter Orderic, but there is an earlier & better source that
Sánchez-Pagín and others have apparently overlooked, and which Alfred
Richard may have known (although it was not published before his
work). 'Chronica Naierensis' edited by Juan Estévez Sola, _Chronica
hispana saeculi XII_, part 2, CCCM 71A (Turnhout, 1995), book III
chapter 22, p. 178 states:
"Rex autem iste quinque uxores legitimas noscitur habuisse: prima
Agnetem, que obiit era MCXXXVI" (this king [Alfonso VI] is known to
have had five lawful spouses: first Agnes, who died in 1098). NB the
difference between era 1135 (AD 1097) and 1136 (1098) is a single
stroke of the pen, or merely the legibility of one, and not at all
uncommon as medieval dating anomalies go).
Agnes wife of Pedro disappears between 9 May and 16 August 1097. "VII
Idus Iunii" (from the Anales Compostelanos) falls right between those
dates. Could it be that it was the Queen of Aragon who died on this
date, and it has mistakenly been applied to the repudiated Queen of
Leon by the author of the Chronica Naierensis?
Yes, it's certainly possible - when I get round to transcribing the
whole chapter & cheecking, I think there may be a similar instance of
confusion between two other homonymous ladies.
Bernard Reilly affirmed the confusion as suggested by Todd - in _The
Kingdom of León-Castilla under King Alfonso VI, 1065-1109_ (Princeton,
1988) p. 105 note 48 he stated: "The date of her death has frequently
been given as June 6, 1078, based on a garbled notice in ...Annales
Compostellaní...The date given there is actually 1098 and the reference
is to her half-sister of the same name who was married to Pedro I of
Aragón."
Peter Stewart