Olivia de la Mare, and Thornhill of Thornhill

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John Ravilious

Olivia de la Mare, and Thornhill of Thornhill

Legg inn av John Ravilious » 13 sep 2004 03:03:47

[originally posted 11 September, 2004. Current whereabouts unknown]
______________________________



Saturday, 11 September, 2004


Dear MichaelAnne (and Chris, Rosie, Leo, Douglas, Ian, Brom, et al.),

You had posted the text & A2A location for a grant and exchange
made by
Olivia de la Mare, involving her son Richard de Thornhill but
importantly also
her SON AND HEIR William d'Arcy, as follows:
_______________________________________________

PRO, West Yorkshire Archive Service, Yorkshire Archaeological Society:
Clarke Thornhill of Fixby Collection
Reference: DD12/II/3/10
Deeds

Grant by Olyva de la Mare, widow, to Richard de Thornil, her son, of
all her land in Galthorn namely all that land which she had of
Geoffrey de Nevill and Mabel, his wife, in exchange for land in
Culgarth, in accordance of a deed of quit claim which the said Richard
has from William de Arci, the said Olyva's son and heir. Witnesses,
John de Lungvilers, Robert de Stapelton, William de Brettona, Adam de
Mirfeud, Adam de Preston, knights, Richard de Tanoreslay.

(Middle of 13th century.).
_____________________________________________


This got me thinking, and looking. I went through the SGM
archives re:
references to Malherbe & c., and came up with the chart and
documentation
given below.

This doesn't solve the mysteries concerning the de la Mare
ancestry per
se, but provides a bit more in the way of connections incl. to Adam
fitz Swain
of Appleby. I capitalized the names of the individuals in the chart
either
involved in or named in the exchange, including Olivia's son-in-law
Richard de
Tankersley (name reads "Richard de Tanoreslay" in the A2A text).

This does appear to cement the connection between Olivia de la
Mare and
Mabel, especially due to the exchange of lands in Culgaith,
Cumberland and
Cawthorne, co. Yorks. (all holdings of Adam fitz Swain). Any
comment,
criticism or supportive/contrary documentation is welcome as always.

Cheers,

John *



Adam fitz Swain =
of Appleby, co. Lincs., Culgaith, I
Cumbs. and Cawthorne, co. I
Yorks. Founder of the I
monastery of Monk Bretton I
d. 1159 I
________________________I______
I I
Alexander = Amabel 1) Adam de = Matilda = 2) John = 3)
Gerard
de Nevill I <coheir> Montbegon I <coheir> I Malherbe
de
V d. bef 1172 I I d. 1181
Glanville
___________________________________I I
I ________________________I________________
I I I I
Roger de William de = Mabel John Eudo de =
Clementia
Montbegon la Mare I dsp bef Longvilliers I
Malherbe
dsp 1227 d.ca.1203 I 1216 d. 1229 I
____________I I_____
_______I_______ I
I I I
MABEL OLIVIA = 1) Hervey = 2) Sir John JOHN
DE
= GEOFFREY DE LA MARE I d'Arcy I de Thornhill
LONGVILLIERS
DE NEVILL I I d. bef 1260 d.
1254
__________________I ________I_________
<witness>
I I I
I I I
WILLIAM RICHARD Sara = Sir RICHARD
D'ARCY DE THORNHILL I DE TANKERSLEY
<heir of his d. 1287 I <witness>
mother> V




__________________________________________

References:


Message 7 in thread
From: Reedpcgen (reedpcgen@aol.com)
Subject: Re: De la Mare
Newsgroups: soc.genealogy.medieval
Date: 1999/02/24


Do you know anything of the De la Mare family which married into
Thornhill? William (son of Ralph) m. Mabel de Malherbe by Maud dau.
of
Adam Fitzswain and their ?dau. m. Sir John de Thornhill (d. bef. 11
MAR
1249/50).

mbc

John Malherbe (d. 1181), second husband of Maud, was by her father of
two
daughters who would become coheirs. The eldest, Mabel, married
William de la
Mare (son of Ralph, who d. ca. 1203), and was mother of Mabel de la
Mare (d.
1249) who married Geoffrey de Nevill. It is conjectured that Mabel
had a
sister, Olivia, who was called "de la Mare" (after the decease of her
two
husbands) in early Lincoln/Yorkshire records. She married (1) Hervey
d'Arecy
(Darcy) of Flixborough, Lincs., and (2) Sir John de Thornhill.
Olivia's
daughter Sarah de Thornhill was mother of two daughters and coheirs,
Alice de
Tankersley, who married Richard le Tyes [above], and Johanna de
Tankersley, who
married Sir Hugh Eland.

There are different branches of the de la Mare family in England,
entirely
unrelated. You want the one in Lincolnshire and Yorkshire. I don't
think
there is anything extensive printed on this branch, so you're into
original
research if you want more.

pcr

____________________________________________________


Domesday Descendants Corrections

From: Rosie Bevan (rbevan@paradise.net.nz)
Subject: DD Corrections and Amendments - update 3
Newsgroups: soc.genealogy.medieval
Date: 28 November, 2003

DD p 961 Filius Suein, Adam:
"He died in 1159 leaving two daughters and coheiresses, Amabel wife of
William Neville and Matilda, wife first of Adam de Montbegon, and then
of
Gerard de Glanville."

Matilda, daughter of Adam fitz Swain was married three times. By Adam
de
Montbegon who died before 1172, she had issue Roger de Montbegon
d.s.p.
1227. Her second husband was John Malherbe of Appleby, Lincs. d.1181,
by
whom she had three children - John Malherbe d.s.p. bef 1216; Mabel,
wife of
William de Lemare; and Clemence, wife of Eudes de Longviliers. Maud
married
thirdly Gerard de Glanvill but had no issue by him. A succession of
charters
to the monastery of Monk Bretton, which Adam fitz Swein founded,
indicates
that her eventual heirs were by her second husband John Malherbe - her
grandchildren, Mabel de Lemare, wife of Geoffrey de Nevill, and John
de
Longviliers.
EYC v.3 p.318 ; CP Vol IX (Neville) page 502c (f)

Adrian Channing, Rosie Bevan 20 July 2003

____________________________________________


from The Bretton Family History Website
http://www.bretton.org/addenda.htm


Yorkshire Archaelogical Society - Yorkshire Deeds Volume IV
Relations between Adam fitz Swain’s daughters and their Bretton
half brothers


Under the heading of “Cawthorne” on page 40 are given
details of a grant from Olyva de la Mare, in her widowhood, to her
son, Richard de Thornhill.. Olyva de la Mare was grand-daughter of
Adam fitz Swain and would therefore be related to the Brettons, albeit
they were illegitimate. It is interesting to see that all the six
witnesses were Knights and included Sir John Lunguilers (Longuilers)(
who married another of Adam’s grand-daughters), Sir William
Bretton, and another of her sons, Sir Richard de Tankersley
(Tancreslay). The notes state that the date of the deed (many early
deeds were undated) was clearly before 1254 (when Sir John Longuilers
died)

he full details of the deed, as recorded, and, in particular the notes
attached are as follows :-

Grant by Olyva de la Mare in her widowhood to Richard de Thornhil her
son, for his homage, of all her land in the vill of Calthorn, which
she had of Sir Geoffrey de Nevill and Mabel his wife in exchange for
her land in the vill of Culgaith, of which there was a plea between
them before the justices of Carlisle (Caridiolum) ; to have and to
hold in accordance with a quitclaim and charter of confirmation which
Richard had from William de Arci the grantor’s son and heir ; at
the annual rent to the grantor and her heirs of a pound of cumin at
Martinmas. Witnesses, Sir John de Lunguilers, Robert de Stapeltona,
William de Brettona, Adam de Mirfeud, Adam de prestona, knts., Richard
de Tancreslay.

The notes attached say :-

“This deed gives rise to several points of difficulty. The date
is clearly earlier than 1254 when Sir John de Longvillers died (Yorks
Inq. I. 40). Mabel de Nevill, daughter of William de la Mare and
widow of Geoffrey de Nevill, made a grant to Monk Bretton 1249 - 53.
(Farrer, Early Yorkshire Charters no. 1648). For her descent through
her mother, Mabel Malherbe, from Adam son of Swain, who had Cawthorne
see ibid p. 318. Culgaith had formed part of Swain’s lordship in
Cumberland - ibid p. 317 and Mr W. Farrer has given me a reference to
a Cumberland Fine of 1232 (file 2 - No. 13) in which Geoffrey de
Nevill and Mabel his wife acknowledged, after a plea of warranty of
charter, a moiety of the manor to be the right of William son of John.
With regard to Olyva her interest in Culgaith would appear to have
arisen either by reason of dower or by reason of inheritance from Adam
son of Swain ; and the former is almost certainly ruled out by the
fact that in this deed the rent reserved for the Cawthorne property
was to her “and her heirs”. The latter suggestion that she
was a descendant of Adam, being another daughter of William de la Mare
and Mabel Malherbe, and using her maiden name in dealing with her own
inherited property, would seem to invite acceptance. A William de
Arcy, possibly her son mentioned in this deed held of Norman de Arcy 4
fees in Flixborough and elsewhere in County Lincolnshire 1242-3 (Book
of Fees ii, 1077); and, with regard to the Thornhill connection
Whitaker (Loidis and Elmete page 31) says that Olivia de la Mar
married Sir John de Thornhill, who was living 21 Henry III and had
issue Sir Richard de Thornhill but he does not guarantee his history
of the Thornhill family, which was based on Hopkinson.



* John P. Ravilious

John Ravilious

Re: Olivia de la Mare, and Thornhill of Thornhill

Legg inn av John Ravilious » 13 sep 2004 12:44:27

Monday, 13 September, 2004


Hello All,

Following is a slight revision to the chart posted earlier,
spaced in order to avoid earlier problems on the margins.

Cheers,

John



John *



Adam fitz Swain =
of Appleby, co. Lincs., Culgaith, I
Cumbs. and Cawthorne, co. I
Yorks. Founder of the I
monastery of Monk Bretton I
d. 1159 I
________________________I______
I I
Alexander = Amabel 1) Adam de = Matilda = 2)John = 3)Gerard
de Nevill I <coheir> Montbegon I <coheir> I Malherbe de
V d. bef 1172 I I d. 1181 Glan-
I I ville
______________________________I I
I ___________________I____________
I I I I
Roger de William = Mabel John Eudo de = Clementia
Montbegon de la I dsp bef Long- I
dsp 1227 Mare I 1216 villiers I
d.ca.1203 I d. 1229 I
_________I I_____
_______I_______ I
I I I
MABEL OLIVIA = 1)Hervey = 2) Sir John JOHN DE
= GEOFFREY DE LA I d'Arcy I de Thornhill LONGVILLIERS
DE NEVILL MARE I I d. bef 1260 d. 1254
____________I _______I_______ <witness>
I I I
I I I
WILLIAM RICHARD Sara = Sir RICHARD
D'ARCY DE THORNHILL I DE TANKERSLEY
<heir of his d. 1287 I <witness>
mother> V






therav3@aol.com (John Ravilious) wrote in message news:<55712d2e.0409121703.2c6f56ea@posting.google.com>...
[originally posted 11 September, 2004. Current whereabouts unknown]
______________________________



Saturday, 11 September, 2004


Dear MichaelAnne (and Chris, Rosie, Leo, Douglas, Ian, Brom, et al.),

You had posted the text & A2A location for a grant and exchange
made by
Olivia de la Mare, involving her son Richard de Thornhill but
importantly also
her SON AND HEIR William d'Arcy, as follows:
_______________________________________________

PRO, West Yorkshire Archive Service, Yorkshire Archaeological Society:
Clarke Thornhill of Fixby Collection
Reference: DD12/II/3/10
Deeds

Grant by Olyva de la Mare, widow, to Richard de Thornil, her son, of
all her land in Galthorn namely all that land which she had of
Geoffrey de Nevill and Mabel, his wife, in exchange for land in
Culgarth, in accordance of a deed of quit claim which the said Richard
has from William de Arci, the said Olyva's son and heir. Witnesses,
John de Lungvilers, Robert de Stapelton, William de Brettona, Adam de
Mirfeud, Adam de Preston, knights, Richard de Tanoreslay.

(Middle of 13th century.).
_____________________________________________


This got me thinking, and looking. I went through the SGM
archives re:
references to Malherbe & c., and came up with the chart and
documentation
given below.

This doesn't solve the mysteries concerning the de la Mare
ancestry per
se, but provides a bit more in the way of connections incl. to Adam
fitz Swain
of Appleby. I capitalized the names of the individuals in the chart
either
involved in or named in the exchange, including Olivia's son-in-law
Richard de
Tankersley (name reads "Richard de Tanoreslay" in the A2A text).

This does appear to cement the connection between Olivia de la
Mare and
Mabel, especially due to the exchange of lands in Culgaith,
Cumberland and
Cawthorne, co. Yorks. (all holdings of Adam fitz Swain). Any
comment,
criticism or supportive/contrary documentation is welcome as always.

Cheers,

John *



Adam fitz Swain =
of Appleby, co. Lincs., Culgaith, I
Cumbs. and Cawthorne, co. I
Yorks. Founder of the I
monastery of Monk Bretton I
d. 1159 I
________________________I______
I I
Alexander = Amabel 1) Adam de = Matilda = 2) John = 3)
Gerard
de Nevill I <coheir> Montbegon I <coheir> I Malherbe
de
V d. bef 1172 I I d. 1181
Glanville
___________________________________I I
I ________________________I________________
I I I I
Roger de William de = Mabel John Eudo de =
Clementia
Montbegon la Mare I dsp bef Longvilliers I
Malherbe
dsp 1227 d.ca.1203 I 1216 d. 1229 I
____________I I_____
_______I_______ I
I I I
MABEL OLIVIA = 1) Hervey = 2) Sir John JOHN
DE
= GEOFFREY DE LA MARE I d'Arcy I de Thornhill
LONGVILLIERS
DE NEVILL I I d. bef 1260 d.
1254
__________________I ________I_________
witness
I I I
I I I
WILLIAM RICHARD Sara = Sir RICHARD
D'ARCY DE THORNHILL I DE TANKERSLEY
heir of his d. 1287 I <witness
mother> V




snip

Tim Powys-Lybbe

Re: Olivia de la Mare, and Thornhill of Thornhill

Legg inn av Tim Powys-Lybbe » 13 sep 2004 15:03:51

In message of 13 Sep, therav3@aol.com (John Ravilious) wrote:

[originally posted 11 September, 2004. Current whereabouts unknown]
______________________________



Saturday, 11 September, 2004


Dear MichaelAnne (and Chris, Rosie, Leo, Douglas, Ian, Brom, et al.),

You had posted the text & A2A location for a grant and exchange
made by Olivia de la Mare, involving her son Richard de Thornhill but
importantly also her SON AND HEIR William d'Arcy, as follows:
_______________________________________________

PRO, West Yorkshire Archive Service, Yorkshire Archaeological Society:
Clarke Thornhill of Fixby Collection
Reference: DD12/II/3/10
Deeds

Grant by Olyva de la Mare, widow, to Richard de Thornil, her son, of
all her land in Galthorn namely all that land which she had of
Geoffrey de Nevill and Mabel, his wife, in exchange for land in
Culgarth, in accordance of a deed of quit claim which the said Richard
has from William de Arci, the said Olyva's son and heir. Witnesses,
John de Lungvilers, Robert de Stapelton, William de Brettona, Adam de
Mirfeud, Adam de Preston, knights, Richard de Tanoreslay.

(Middle of 13th century.).
_____________________________________________


This got me thinking, and looking. I went through the SGM
archives re: references to Malherbe & c., and came up with the chart
and documentation given below.

This doesn't solve the mysteries concerning the de la Mare
ancestry perse, but provides a bit more in the way of connections incl.
to Adam fitz Swainof Appleby. I capitalized the names of the individuals
in the chart either involved in or named in the exchange, including
Olivia's son-in-law Richard de Tankersley (name reads "Richard de
Tanoreslay" in the A2A text).

This does appear to cement the connection between Olivia de la
Mare and Mabel, especially due to the exchange of lands in Culgaith,
Cumberland and Cawthorne, co. Yorks. (all holdings of Adam fitz Swain).
Any comment, criticism or supportive/contrary documentation is welcome
as always.

Cheers,

John *



Adam fitz Swain =
of Appleby, co. Lincs., Culgaith, I
Cumbs. and Cawthorne, co. I
Yorks. Founder of the I
monastery of Monk Bretton I
d. 1159 I
________________________I_____
I I
Alexander = Amabel 1) Adam de = Matilda = 2) John = 3) Gerard
de Nevill I <coheir> Montbegon I <coheir> I Malherbe de
V d. bef 1172 I I d. 1181 Glanville

I am only interested in clarifying Amabel dau of Adam Filius Swein.

Below Rosie Bevan quotes Keats-Rohan's Domesday Descendants, p. 961 to
the effect that Amabel's husband was _William_ de Neville.

Additionally DD on p. 418 shows she had a husband Alexander de
Crevequer (perhaps shunted to become "Alexander de Neville"?) and they
had:

Alexander, dsp,
Cecily, d. 1218, who m. Walter de Neville,
Matilda, m. Henry de Chesney.

Finally on DD p. 361 Amabel had a daughter Sara who m. Thomas de Burgh.
But DD does not say who was Sara's father. My guess is that Sara was
the dau. of Wm. de Neville, but I have no justification for this.

Can anyone clarify Amabel's families? Did she have any descendants
beyond her children?


___________________________________I I
I _______________________I_____________
I I I I
Roger de William de = Mabel John Eudo de = Clementia
Montbegon la Mare I dsp bef Longvilliers I Malherbe
dsp 1227 d.ca.1203 I 1216 d. 1229 I
____________I I_____
_______I_______ I
I I I
MABEL OLIVIA = 1) Hervey = 2) Sir John JOHN DE
= GEOFFREY DE LA MARE I d'Arcy I de Thornhill LONGVILLIERS
DE NEVILL I I d. bef 1260 d. 1254
__________________I ________I_________ <witness
I I I
I I I
WILLIAM RICHARD Sara = Sir RICHARD
D'ARCY DE THORNHILL I DE TANKERSLEY
heir of his d. 1287 I <witness
mother> V




__________________________________________

References:


Message 7 in thread
From: Reedpcgen (reedpcgen@aol.com)
Subject: Re: De la Mare
Newsgroups: soc.genealogy.medieval
Date: 1999/02/24


Do you know anything of the De la Mare family which married into
Thornhill? William (son of Ralph) m. Mabel de Malherbe by Maud
dau. of Adam Fitzswain and their ?dau. m. Sir John de Thornhill (d.
bef. 11 MAR 1249/50).

mbc

John Malherbe (d. 1181), second husband of Maud, was by her father of
two daughters who would become coheirs. The eldest, Mabel, married
William de la Mare (son of Ralph, who d. ca. 1203), and was mother of
Mabel de la Mare (d. 1249) who married Geoffrey de Nevill. It is
conjectured that Mabel had a sister, Olivia, who was called "de la
Mare" (after the decease of her two husbands) in early Lincoln/Yorkshire
records. She married (1) Hervey d'Arecy (Darcy) of Flixborough, Lincs.,
and (2) Sir John de Thornhill. Olivia's daughter Sarah de Thornhill was
mother of two daughters and coheirs, Alice de Tankersley, who married
Richard le Tyes [above], and Johanna de Tankersley, who married Sir Hugh
Eland.

There are different branches of the de la Mare family in England,
entirely unrelated. You want the one in Lincolnshire and Yorkshire.
I don't think there is anything extensive printed on this branch, so
you're into original research if you want more.

pcr

____________________________________________________


Domesday Descendants Corrections

From: Rosie Bevan (rbevan@paradise.net.nz)
Subject: DD Corrections and Amendments - update 3
Newsgroups: soc.genealogy.medieval
Date: 28 November, 2003

DD p 961 Filius Suein, Adam:
"He died in 1159 leaving two daughters and coheiresses, Amabel wife of
William Neville and Matilda, wife first of Adam de Montbegon, and then
of Gerard de Glanville."

Matilda, daughter of Adam fitz Swain was married three times. By Adam
de Montbegon who died before 1172, she had issue Roger de Montbegon
d.s.p. 1227. Her second husband was John Malherbe of Appleby, Lincs.
d.1181, by whom she had three children - John Malherbe d.s.p. bef 1216;
Mabel, wife of William de Lemare; and Clemence, wife of Eudes de
Longviliers. Maud married thirdly Gerard de Glanvill but had no issue
by him. A succession of charters to the monastery of Monk Bretton, which
Adam fitz Swein founded, indicates that her eventual heirs were by her
second husband John Malherbe - her grandchildren, Mabel de Lemare, wife
of Geoffrey de Nevill, and John de Longviliers.
EYC v.3 p.318 ; CP Vol IX (Neville) page 502c (f)

Adrian Channing, Rosie Bevan 20 July 2003

____________________________________________


<snip>

--
Tim Powys-Lybbe tim@powys.org
For a miscellany of bygones: http://powys.org

Gjest

Re: Olivia de la Mare, and Thornhill of Thornhill

Legg inn av Gjest » 13 sep 2004 17:33:32

Monday, 13 September, 2004


Dear Tim,

Apologies to you (and all) re: the misleading 'Alexander de Neville'
appearing in the subject chart as husband of Amabel. What was in fact intended
was, Alexander de CREVEQUER.

That being said, it will be of interest to resolve the Domesday
Descendants Dispute you've noted. Following is the descent I show from Amabel,
daughter of Adam fitz Swain, to the Wentworths of Elmsall & c.

Cheers,

John


___________________________



1 Alexander de Crevequer[1]
----------------------------------------
Death: ca 1165, d.v.p.[1],[2]
Father: Reginald de Crevequer (-<1173)
Mother: Matilda 'filia Gilberti'

of Redbourne, co. Lincs.[1]

'Alexander de Crevequer', made a gift of 40 acres in 'Hachetorn' to
Bullington priory, co. Lincs.[Mon. Angl. 6/II, p. 953, Num. VII][3].
In the same charter, confirms a gift of land in Redbourne by his father
and himself: 'pater meus Reginaldus et ego'[3]

Spouse: Amabel filia Adam[1]
Death: 1207[1]
Father: Adam fitz Swain of Appleby & c. (-1159)

Children: Cecily (-1218)
Alexander
Matilda


1.1 Cecily de Crevequer[1]
----------------------------------------
Death: 1218[1],[2]

'Cecilia de Crevequer', heiress of Redbourne[1] [DD 418][2]

Spouse: Walter de Neville[1]
Death: ca 1198

Children: Alexander (-ca1219)


1.1.1 Alexander de Neville[1]
----------------------------------------
Death: ca 1219[1]

of Redbourne, co. Lincs.[1]

Spouse: Margaret[1]

Children: Alexander (>1201-1249)


1.1.1.1 Alexander de Neville[1]
----------------------------------------
Birth: aft 13 Jun 1201[4]
Death: 1249[1]

of Redbourne, Lincs. and Mirfield, co .York[1]

a minor in 1222: Geoffrey de Neville and Richard de Alencon fined for
the custody of the land and heir of 'Alex' de Nevill' ' [mandate to the
Sheriff of Yorkshire and Cumberland to receive agreed security,
Westminster, 13 June 1222][4]

Children: Ellen


1.1.1.1.1 Ellen de Neville[1]
----------------------------------------

coheiress[1]

Spouse: Richard le Tyes[1]

Children: Richard (->1318)


1.1.1.1.1.1 Richard le Tyes
----------------------------------------
Death: aft 1318

of Elmsall, co. York
cf. Vis. Yorkshire, pedigree of Wentworth[5]

Spouse: Alice de Tankersley
Father: Sir Richard de Tankersley
Mother: Sarah de Thornhill [ * a descendant of Adam fitz Swain]

Children: Jane


1.1.1.1.1.1.1 Jane le Tyes[6]
----------------------------------------

heiress of Elmsall, co. York

Spouse: John Wentworth

Children: John


1.1.1.1.1.1.1.1 John Wentworth
----------------------------------------

of Elmsall, co. York[6]


cf. Rutton, xvi[7]

Spouse: Alice Bisset

Children: John (-1425)


1.1.1.1.1.1.1.1.1 John Wentworth
----------------------------------------
Death: 15 Oct 1425[5]

of Elmsall, co. York[6]

cf. Rutton, xvi[7]

Spouse: Agnes Dransfield[6]
Death: 3 Oct 1430[5]
Father: William Dransfield

Children: John Wentworth of North Elmsall(~1370-)
Richard Wentworth of West Bretton
Roger of Nettlestead, Suffolk [de jure uxoris] (-1452)


1. Paul C. Reed, "William Longespee," Mar 7, 1998,
GEN-MEDIEVAL-L@rootsweb.com, Discussion of possible identity of mother
of William Longespee, Sources incl: Farrer, W. Early Yorkshire Charters,
Vol. 3 p. 318.
2. K. S. B. Keats-Rohan, "Domesday Descendants," The Boydell Press,
Woodbridge, 2002.
3. Sir William Dugdale, "Monasticon Anglicanum," London: Harding & Lepard;
and Longman Rees... Green, 1830, Vol. VI, Pt. 1 - Austin Abbey of Wigmore,
in Herefordshire, pp. 348-356 [Fundationis et Fundatorum Historia],
Vol. VI, Pt. 2 - Priory of Bullington, co. Lincs., pp. 951-954.
4. Charles Roberts, ed., "Excerpta ex Rotulis Finium," The Commissioners of
the Public Records of the Kingdom, Vol I (1216-1246), 1835, full title:
Excerpta e Rotulis Finium in Turri Londinensi asservatis, Henrico Tertio
Rege, A.D. 1216-1272.
5. "The Visitation of Yorkshire," Harleian Soc., William Flower, Esquire,
Norroy King of Arms, Harleian Series, Vol. 16, Mitchell and Hughes,
Printers, London, 1881, pp. 154-156: pedigree of Hastings of Elsing
6. "Visitations of the North, Part III," Publications of the Surtees Society,
Vol. CXLIV, Northumberland Press Ltd., Newcastle, 1930, 78 et seq.
7. Rutton, William Loftie, "Three Branches of the Family of Wentworth,"
London: privately printed, 1891, .pdf image files provided by
Genealogy.com http://www.genealogy.com.

Hal Bradley

RE: Olivia de la Mare, and Thornhill of Thornhill

Legg inn av Hal Bradley » 13 sep 2004 22:49:34

John,

Thank you for this outline. I have a question (see below).

Thanks for your input.

Hal Bradley

-----Original Message-----
From: Therav3@aol.com [mailto:Therav3@aol.com]
Sent: Monday, September 13, 2004 6:33 AM
To: GEN-MEDIEVAL-L@rootsweb.com
Subject: Re: Olivia de la Mare, and Thornhill of Thornhill

Monday, 13 September, 2004


Dear Tim,

Apologies to you (and all) re: the misleading 'Alexander de Neville'
appearing in the subject chart as husband of Amabel. What was in fact
intended
was, Alexander de CREVEQUER.

That being said, it will be of interest to resolve the Domesday
Descendants Dispute you've noted. Following is the descent I show from
Amabel,
daughter of Adam fitz Swain, to the Wentworths of Elmsall & c.

Cheers,

John


___________________________



1 Alexander de Crevequer[1]
----------------------------------------
Death: ca 1165, d.v.p.[1],[2]
Father: Reginald de Crevequer (-<1173)
Mother: Matilda 'filia Gilberti'

of Redbourne, co. Lincs.[1]

'Alexander de Crevequer', made a gift of 40 acres in 'Hachetorn' to
Bullington priory, co. Lincs.[Mon. Angl. 6/II, p. 953, Num. VII][3].
In the same charter, confirms a gift of land in Redbourne by his father
and himself: 'pater meus Reginaldus et ego'[3]

Spouse: Amabel filia Adam[1]
Death: 1207[1]
Father: Adam fitz Swain of Appleby & c. (-1159)

Children: Cecily (-1218)
Alexander
Matilda


1.1 Cecily de Crevequer[1]
----------------------------------------
Death: 1218[1],[2]

'Cecilia de Crevequer', heiress of Redbourne[1] [DD 418][2]

Spouse: Walter de Neville[1]
Death: ca 1198

Children: Alexander (-ca1219)


1.1.1 Alexander de Neville[1]
----------------------------------------
Death: ca 1219[1]

of Redbourne, co. Lincs.[1]

Spouse: Margaret[1]

Children: Alexander (>1201-1249)


1.1.1.1 Alexander de Neville[1]
----------------------------------------
Birth: aft 13 Jun 1201[4]
Death: 1249[1]

of Redbourne, Lincs. and Mirfield, co .York[1]

a minor in 1222: Geoffrey de Neville and Richard de Alencon fined for
the custody of the land and heir of 'Alex' de Nevill' ' [mandate to the
Sheriff of Yorkshire and Cumberland to receive agreed security,
Westminster, 13 June 1222][4]

Children: Ellen

Sanders' "English Baronies", p. 74, identifies the husband of Elena de
Neville as Henry le Tyes citing CIPM ii, no. 574 among others. I do not have
ready access to the ipm cited. Comments? Thank you.


1.1.1.1.1 Ellen de Neville[1]
----------------------------------------

coheiress[1]

Spouse: Richard le Tyes[1]

Children: Richard (->1318)


1.1.1.1.1.1 Richard le Tyes
----------------------------------------
Death: aft 1318

of Elmsall, co. York
cf. Vis. Yorkshire, pedigree of Wentworth[5]

Spouse: Alice de Tankersley
Father: Sir Richard de Tankersley
Mother: Sarah de Thornhill [ * a descendant of Adam fitz Swain]

Children: Jane

snip

Gjest

Re: Olivia de la Mare, and Thornhill of Thornhill

Legg inn av Gjest » 13 des 2004 15:31:01

Monday, 13 December, 2004


Dear MichaelAnne (and Chris, Rosie, Leo, Douglas, Ian, Brom,
et al.),

In a prior thread, we had discussed the following grant and
exchange made by Olivia de la Mare, involving her sons William
d'Arcy and Richard de Thornhill, primarily concerning the matter
of Olivia's placement as a (conjectured) child of William de la
Mare and Mabel Malherbe, and sister of Mabel (de la Mare) de
Neville:

_______________________________________________

A2A, West Yorkshire Archive Service, Yorkshire Archaeological
Society: Clarke Thornhill of Fixby Collection
DD12/II/3/10

Grant by Olyva de la Mare, widow, to Richard de Thornil, her son,
of all her land in Galthorn namely all that land which she had
of Geoffrey de Nevill and Mabel, his wife, in exchange for land
in Culgarth, in accordance of a deed of quit claim which the said
Richard has from William de Arci, the said Olyva's son and heir.
Witnesses, John de Lungvilers, Robert de Stapelton, William de
Brettona, Adam de Mirfeud, Adam de Preston, knights, Richard de
Tanoreslay.

(Middle of 13th century.).
_____________________________________________


Most of the elements we would expect (incl. the exchange of
lands in Cumberland and Yorkshire, all previously held by Mabel
Malherbe's grandfather Adam fitz Swain of Appleby, Lincs. & c.),
but there was no direct statement as to Olivia's parentage.
Further, Rosie had raised the concern that there was no record
(ca. 1254 as I recall) of Olivia de la Mare's tenure in Yorkshire
as a coheir of fitz Swain/Malherbe.

The latter point may well be resolved had we an actual date
for the exchange of lands between Olivia and Mabel referenced in
the grant above; it appears most likely that the record of tenure
of the Yorkshire lands occurred before Olivia de la Mare acquired
those lands in Calthorn from Mabel de la Mare. As to the
conjectured relationship between Olivia and Mabel, I have found
the following grant in W. Brown's Yorkshire Deeds:

' Stansfield.
469. Grant by William son of John de Thornhil, to Amabilia his
sister, of five bovates of land in Stanesfeld, and toll from
the mill in the same vill as much as belonged to five bovates
of land, by doing forinsec service such as belonged to five
bovates of land of the same fee, that is, 15d., at the
Purification 5d., at Whitsuntide 5d., and if the wood were
sold or assarted, the donor to have as much as belonged to
two bovates, and the donee to have as much as belonged to
five bovates. Witnesses, Hugh de Lelay, Richard son of
Jurdan, Reginald son of Helias, William son of Thomas,
Serlo de Swinlingeton, Henry de Swinlingeton, Richard de
Tange, John Talvace, Thomas de Westbiri. (Lord Savile). '[1]

Previously I had identified only Sir Richard de Thornhill and
his sister Sarah (wife of Sir Richard de Tankersley) as the issue
of Sir John de Thornhill and Olivia de la Mare. While no date
has a yet been fixed for the above charter, it does appear that
the two siblings noted above are additional issue of this
marriage, which provides further onomastic support for the
relationship conjectured, as follows (conjectured link
shown _ _ _ _ _ ; onomastic matches are CAPITALIZED):


WILLIAM de la Mare = Mabel <AMABILIA> Malherbe
I elder dau. and coheiress
_ _ _ _ _ _ _I______________________
I I
1) Hervey = Olivia = 2) Sir John Mabel <AMABILIA> =
d'Arcy I I de Thornhill Geoffrey de Neville
I I d. bef 1260
_______I __I________________________________________
I I I I I
WILLIAM Sir Richard Sarah = Richard WILLIAM AMABILIA
d'Arcy de Thornhill de Tankersley


I note <AMABILIA> above for Mabel Malherbe and her daughter,
as that is the Latin for Mabel. It is most likely that
'Amabilia' de Thornhill was known in the vernacular as Mabel.

We still have yet to find a definitive statement as to
Olivia's parentage, but to date the onomastic and landholding
information in hand provides sufficient circumstantial evidence
to identify Olivia de la Mare as a daughter and coheir of William
de la Mare and his wife Mabel Malherbe.

Cheers,

John *



NOTES

[1] W. Brown, Yorkshire Deeds II:180.


* John P. Ravilious

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