Plantagenet ancestry of Richard Price

Moderator: MOD_nyhetsgrupper

Svar
Paul K Davis

Plantagenet ancestry of Richard Price

Legg inn av Paul K Davis » 12 sep 2004 04:44:08

I refer to the Richard Price listed in Dwnn's Visitations of Wales,
edited by Meyrick, volume 1, page 315/6, as son of Richard Price and
Elizabeth Herbert.

I have previously posted a description of evidence, together with my
line of reasoning, that John Price, who came to Jamestown in 1611, was son
of this Richard Price, and his wife Ursula. I have also previously posted
Richard's line of descent from Malcolm II, king of Scotland, which elicited
a response from Todd Farmerie that he was also descended from Gruffydd ap
Cynan, king of Gwynedd.

From studying Bartrum's "Welsh Genealogies" I have now identified a
Plantagenet Ancestry for Richard, through an illegitimate daughter of
Dafydd, son of Llywelyn the Great and princess Joan, illegitimate daughter
of king John.

Elizabeth Herbert, the mother of the younger Richard Price and wife of
the elder Richard Price, was the daughter of Richard Herbert and Ann ferch
Dafydd. [see: Dwnn.]

Ann was the daughter of Dafydd ab Ievan and Alice ferch Dafydd.
[see:"Gruffudd ap Cynan 7(D)".]

Alice was the daughter of Dafydd ap Hywel. [see: "Gruffudd ap Cynan
7(D)". Bartrum leaves her unnamed. I have taken the name "Alice" from
Burke's "Landed Gentry".]

Dafydd was the son of Hywel ab Einion. [see: "Gruffudd ap Cynan 7(D)".
Bartrum lists no wives for him, and leaves his mother unspecified.]

Hywel was the son of Einion ap Hywel and Gwerful ferch Llywelyn. [see:
"Gruffudd ap Cynan 7(D)".]

Gwerful was the daughter of Llywelyn ab Ievan and a daughter of Ithel
Ddu. [see: "Gruffudd ap Cynan 7(D)" and "Gollwyn 5".]

Llywelyn was the son of Ievan ap Gruffydd and Myfanwy ferch Madog.
[see: "Gollwyn 5". Bartrum specifically identifies which of Ievan's wifes
was Llywelyn's mother.]

Myfanwy was the daughter of Madog ab Elise. [see: "Gollwyn 5" and
"Bleddyn ap Cynfyn 25". Bartrum leaves her mother unspecified.]

Madog was the son of Elise ab Iorwerth and Annes ferch Dafydd. [see:
"Bleddyn ap Cynfyn 25". The chart indicates that Annes was Elise's only
wife, and the mother of all his children listed.]

Annes was an illegitimate daughter of Dafydd ap Llywelyn. [see:
"Gruffudd ap Cynan 5".]

Dafydd, who died in 1246, was the son of Llywelyn ab Iorwerth and Joan.
[see: "Gruffudd ap Cynan 5".]

Joan was the daughter of king John ("Plantagenet") and Clemencia.

(References, unless otherwise stated, are to pages in either of
Bartrum's two multi-volume compendia.)

-- PKD [Paul K Davis, pkd-gm@earthlink.net]

Douglas Richardson

Re: Plantagenet ancestry of Richard Price

Legg inn av Douglas Richardson » 14 sep 2004 20:24:28

Dear Paul ~

Thank you for your good post. It is most informative.

The royal line you've set forth for Richard Price is certainly
deserving of further study. Regarding the specifics of the actual
descent, I've been informed by the well known Welsh historian, Huw
Pryce, Ph.D., that there is no contemporary evidence that Dafydd ap
Llywelyn, Prince of [North] Wales (died 1246) had any issue,
legitimate or otherwise. However, as you correctly noted, Peter
Bartrum's book, Welsh Genealogies 300-1400 (1980): chart Gruffudd ap
Cynan 5, alleges that Prince Dafydd had two illegitimate children, a
son, Llywelyn, and a daughter, Annes, wife of Elise ap Iorwerth ab
Owain Brogyntyn.

While Mr. Bartrum's statements regarding Prince Dafydd's two bastard
children may well be correct, I think Dr. Pryce's comments should
certainly be taken into consideration. The words "no contemporary
evidence" mean no contemporary evidence. All the same, if you are
interested in pursuing this matter further, I recommend you research
the various sources underlying Mr. Bartrum's charts for Richard
Price's ancestry. Should you find anything helpful (either pro or
con) regarding this line, I'd appreciate it if you would report back
to the newsgroup and tell us your findings.

For now, the line must be considered a possible royal line, but far
from being proven. My own bar for accepting a royal bastard is that
there be some contemporary record which identifies the bastard as a
member of the royal family, which record is recorded in the lifetime
of the individual in question or soon afterwards. Statements in
secondary sources made two or more centuries after the fact regarding
bastardy are to be viewed with a jaundiced eye.

Best always, Douglas Richardson, Salt Lake City, Utah

E-mail: douglasrichardson@royalancestry.net

Website: http://www.royalancestry.net




pkd-gm@earthlink.net ("Paul K Davis") wrote in message news:<410-2200490120449600@earthlink.net>...
I refer to the Richard Price listed in Dwnn's Visitations of Wales,
edited by Meyrick, volume 1, page 315/6, as son of Richard Price and
Elizabeth Herbert.

I have previously posted a description of evidence, together with my
line of reasoning, that John Price, who came to Jamestown in 1611, was son
of this Richard Price, and his wife Ursula. I have also previously posted
Richard's line of descent from Malcolm II, king of Scotland, which elicited
a response from Todd Farmerie that he was also descended from Gruffydd ap
Cynan, king of Gwynedd.

From studying Bartrum's "Welsh Genealogies" I have now identified a
Plantagenet Ancestry for Richard, through an illegitimate daughter of
Dafydd, son of Llywelyn the Great and princess Joan, illegitimate daughter
of king John.

Elizabeth Herbert, the mother of the younger Richard Price and wife of
the elder Richard Price, was the daughter of Richard Herbert and Ann ferch
Dafydd. [see: Dwnn.]

Ann was the daughter of Dafydd ab Ievan and Alice ferch Dafydd.
[see:"Gruffudd ap Cynan 7(D)".]

Alice was the daughter of Dafydd ap Hywel. [see: "Gruffudd ap Cynan
7(D)". Bartrum leaves her unnamed. I have taken the name "Alice" from
Burke's "Landed Gentry".]

Dafydd was the son of Hywel ab Einion. [see: "Gruffudd ap Cynan 7(D)".
Bartrum lists no wives for him, and leaves his mother unspecified.]

Hywel was the son of Einion ap Hywel and Gwerful ferch Llywelyn. [see:
"Gruffudd ap Cynan 7(D)".]

Gwerful was the daughter of Llywelyn ab Ievan and a daughter of Ithel
Ddu. [see: "Gruffudd ap Cynan 7(D)" and "Gollwyn 5".]

Llywelyn was the son of Ievan ap Gruffydd and Myfanwy ferch Madog.
[see: "Gollwyn 5". Bartrum specifically identifies which of Ievan's wifes
was Llywelyn's mother.]

Myfanwy was the daughter of Madog ab Elise. [see: "Gollwyn 5" and
"Bleddyn ap Cynfyn 25". Bartrum leaves her mother unspecified.]

Madog was the son of Elise ab Iorwerth and Annes ferch Dafydd. [see:
"Bleddyn ap Cynfyn 25". The chart indicates that Annes was Elise's only
wife, and the mother of all his children listed.]

Annes was an illegitimate daughter of Dafydd ap Llywelyn. [see:
"Gruffudd ap Cynan 5".]

Dafydd, who died in 1246, was the son of Llywelyn ab Iorwerth and Joan.
[see: "Gruffudd ap Cynan 5".]

Joan was the daughter of king John ("Plantagenet") and Clemencia.

(References, unless otherwise stated, are to pages in either of
Bartrum's two multi-volume compendia.)

-- PKD [Paul K Davis, pkd-gm@earthlink.net]

Paul K Davis

Re: Plantagenet ancestry of Richard Price

Legg inn av Paul K Davis » 15 sep 2004 04:27:03

Douglas,
Thanks very much.
-- PKD [Paul K Davis, pkd-gm@earthlink.net]

[Original Message]
From: <royalancestry@msn.com (Douglas Richardson)
To: <GEN-MEDIEVAL-L@rootsweb.com
Date: 9/14/2004 2:28:18 PM
Subject: Re: Plantagenet ancestry of Richard Price

Dear Paul ~

Thank you for your good post. It is most informative.

The royal line you've set forth for Richard Price is certainly
deserving of further study. Regarding the specifics of the actual
descent, I've been informed by the well known Welsh historian, Huw
Pryce, Ph.D., that there is no contemporary evidence that Dafydd ap
Llywelyn, Prince of [North] Wales (died 1246) had any issue,
legitimate or otherwise. However, as you correctly noted, Peter
Bartrum's book, Welsh Genealogies 300-1400 (1980): chart Gruffudd ap
Cynan 5, alleges that Prince Dafydd had two illegitimate children, a
son, Llywelyn, and a daughter, Annes, wife of Elise ap Iorwerth ab
Owain Brogyntyn.

While Mr. Bartrum's statements regarding Prince Dafydd's two bastard
children may well be correct, I think Dr. Pryce's comments should
certainly be taken into consideration. The words "no contemporary
evidence" mean no contemporary evidence. All the same, if you are
interested in pursuing this matter further, I recommend you research
the various sources underlying Mr. Bartrum's charts for Richard
Price's ancestry. Should you find anything helpful (either pro or
con) regarding this line, I'd appreciate it if you would report back
to the newsgroup and tell us your findings.

For now, the line must be considered a possible royal line, but far
from being proven. My own bar for accepting a royal bastard is that
there be some contemporary record which identifies the bastard as a
member of the royal family, which record is recorded in the lifetime
of the individual in question or soon afterwards. Statements in
secondary sources made two or more centuries after the fact regarding
bastardy are to be viewed with a jaundiced eye.

Best always, Douglas Richardson, Salt Lake City, Utah

E-mail: douglasrichardson@royalancestry.net

Website: http://www.royalancestry.net

Svar

Gå tilbake til «soc.genealogy.medieval»