THROCKMORTON query

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THROCKMORTON query

Legg inn av Gjest » 05 sep 2004 21:26:32

Howdy, all,

My BUTLER ancestors were pretty good social climbers, and heraldic
whores; Check the visitations of Worcester, Bedford and Essex, and
you'll fnd them quartering as many arms as they could squeeze in.

However, there was one glaring exception. Around 1530 (I don't have an
exact date) George BUTLER of Droitwich married Mary, daughter of
Richard THROCKMORTON of Higham Ferrers, Northampton. As far as I can
tell, George "married up", in the fashion his ancestors had perfected
and his progeny perfected. Richard's father had been Sir Robert
THROCKMORTOM of Coughton Court. Surely George and his sons would
incorporate the THROCKMORTON arms into their own, but they did not. In
no subsequent generation do the THROCKMORTON arms appear anywhere in
the BUTLER arms. As I said, this is only noteworthy because the
BUTLERs of Droitwich and later Sharnbrook ALWAYS impaled and then
quarteted maternal arms!

The only theory I can postulate is that the THROCKMORTONs overt
catholocism may have been an impediment. On the other hand, George
BUTLER died in 1551, and custody of his heir John was given unto his
cousin Clement THROCKMORTON, so it's possible that young John was
raised Catholic, anyway.

Anyone familiar enough with these familkies to venture a guess?

Thanks,
Cheers

Tim Powys-Lybbe

Re: THROCKMORTON query

Legg inn av Tim Powys-Lybbe » 07 sep 2004 00:37:50

In message of 5 Sep, stallard@cavtel.net wrote:

Howdy, all,

My BUTLER ancestors were pretty good social climbers, and heraldic
whores; Check the visitations of Worcester, Bedford and Essex, and
you'll fnd them quartering as many arms as they could squeeze in.

However, there was one glaring exception. Around 1530 (I don't have an
exact date) George BUTLER of Droitwich married Mary, daughter of
Richard THROCKMORTON of Higham Ferrers, Northampton. As far as I can
tell, George "married up", in the fashion his ancestors had perfected
and his progeny perfected. Richard's father had been Sir Robert
THROCKMORTOM of Coughton Court. Surely George and his sons would
incorporate the THROCKMORTON arms into their own, but they did not. In
no subsequent generation do the THROCKMORTON arms appear anywhere in
the BUTLER arms. As I said, this is only noteworthy because the
BUTLERs of Droitwich and later Sharnbrook ALWAYS impaled and then
quarteted maternal arms!

The only theory I can postulate is that the THROCKMORTONs overt
catholocism may have been an impediment. On the other hand, George
BUTLER died in 1551, and custody of his heir John was given unto his
cousin Clement THROCKMORTON, so it's possible that young John was
raised Catholic, anyway.

Anyone familiar enough with these families to venture a guess?

No, but...

In the English heraldry game, you may only quarter arms for people for
whom you are a (co-)representative. To be one of those, your
male line ancestor must have married a heraldic heiress, that is one of
the daughters with no brothers or with no brothers with issue. If a
brother of a lady remains alive, she cannot be a heraldic heiress. If
a brother had descendants that lady still cannot be an heiress. Though
if all her brothers' descendants die out in all generations, that lady
may become an "heiress in her issue" long after she too has died.

For instance my grandmother became a heraldic heiress some 28 years
after she had died so that my father and my siblings and I may now
quarter her father's arms. My grandmother's last brother died, like
his other brothers, unmarried and without issue those 28 years after
she had.

Moving on from that, quarterings are inherited. So if an heiress'
father already has a few quarterings, those are inherited with her
father's arms as well. As arms have been around for so long, nearly
nine centuries, it is not uncommon to find the odd family having
garnered scores of arms together in that way.

Remember that an heraldic heiress does not have to have any money. She
may not have two pennies to rub together, yet this does not alter her
status.

Doubtless other countries each have their own rules for their own
quartering game.

--
Tim Powys-Lybbe tim@powys.org
For a miscellany of bygones: http://powys.org

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