news:K3jYc.12259$D7.11332@news-server.bigpond.net.au...
Pierre Aronax wrote:
"Peter Stewart" <p_m_stewart@msn.com> a écrit dans le message de
news:G2aYc.11491$D7.10870@news-server.bigpond.net.au...
<snip>
No objection on that. My point was only that to translate "Andegavorum
comes" by "count of Anjou", particularly in a general discussion, is not
a
problem since what is Anjou is not a big problem, same thing for calling
a
"Francorum rex" a "king of France", since "king of France" is indeed the
correct translation of "Francorum rex" in the 13th century and after (so
for
coherency why not calling the previous kings also "king of France"?). But
"Francorum dux" is a different animal: it does not mean "count of France"
or
"count of the vassals in France", or at least that is not so clear that
"Francorum dux" here means only an authority over the people living in a
spe
cific geographical aera rather than a dignity between all the Franks in
all
the kingdom. There is a county of Anjou, but what would have been exactly
a
duchy of France is less clear. That is way I think it is better to
translate
"Francorum dux" by "duke of the Franks", and that is what French
historians
generally do, even when the call Hugh Capet, for example, "king of
France"
(and not "king of the Franks").
Without refuting your opinion, I think that (quite apart from the odd
informal use of "dux Francie") the title "Francorum dux" can be taken to
mean "duke of Francia" in the limited sense that the holder was uniquely
placed within Francia between the king and all the other territorial
rulers.
That's exactly how I understand the title. However, at least in French, "Duc
de France" looks to imply a territorial dukedom of France distinct from
France/Francia (the kingdom) and comprised inside it, which can be
confusing. At least, that's how I feel it.
In other words, there was a dukedom of France, but not a duchy.
Exactly. I would not have express that so well because of my poor English.
Nevertheless, I maintain that it is better, for the abovesaid reason and in
view of the short existence of the title and of the rarity of the word
"Francia" to designet it, to call the duchy "duchy of the Franks" rather
than "duchy of France".
Pierre
______________________________
FWIW ... in this case, alot... what are the SPECIFIC definitions of "Rex" verses "Dux" ?
That might help to clarify a "proper"-title.
Pardon me... I'm just a stickler about the use and abuse of words. My mother wanted to
be an English-teacher
Wasn't "Dux" originally a military rank or title ?
Kelly Paul Graham