RPA notes - FitzLewis and Rodney

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John Higgins

RPA notes - FitzLewis and Rodney

Legg inn av John Higgins » 19 aug 2004 00:38:44

RPA/PA3 appears to be inconsistent with respect to the parentage of Sir
Henry FitzLewis (d. 1480). On p. 603 (sub Raynsford), he is said to be son
of Sir Lews John by his 2nd wife Anne Montagu. But on p. 373 (sub Hankford)
Sir Lewis John and Anne Montagu are said to have had 3 daughters only, while
among the children of Sir Lewis John by his 1st wife Alice Vere are listed 5
sons including Henry as the 4th of 5. CP 5:210 lists the 5 sons in the same
order as RPA (from Sir Lewis John's will) without indicating their mother.
Roskell's "House of Commons 1386-1421" (cited by RPA) says in its biography
of Sir Lewis John that two sons were by the 1st marriage and 3 by the 2nd
marriage, which would make Henry a son of Alice Montagu. I suspect that
Roskell's version is probably most accurate here, which would make the RPA
version under Raynsford correct and the version under Hankford incorrect.
Can anyone help to resolve this RPA inconsistancy?

Also in RPA, sub Rodney p. 611-2, a descent from King John is given for
various Rodney immigrants. The earliest Rodney shown in this line is Sir
John Rodney, son of George Rodney and Elizabeth Kirton. But elsewhere in
RPA, sub Hungerford p. 407, is mentioned Margaret, dau. of Walter, 1st Lord
Hungerford, who m. Sir Walter Rodney. Both RD500 and RD600 provide a
connection between Sir Walter Rodney and George Rodney which would provide
another descent from King John to the Rodneys in RPA (as well as a descent
from Henry I - outside the scope of RPA).

John Higgins

"Who begot whom is a most amusing kind of hunting" - Horace Walpole

Douglas Richardson

Re: RPA notes - FitzLewis and Rodney

Legg inn av Douglas Richardson » 19 aug 2004 05:26:47

Dear John ~

Thank you for your good post. You've asked an excellent question.

Complete Peerage 5 (1926): 211, footnote e (sub Exeter) shows that the
surviving children of Anne Montagu (died 1457), wife successively of
Richard Hankford, Knt., Lewis John, Knt., and John Holand, K.G., Duke
of Exeter, were as follows:

1. Anne [Hankford], wife of Thomas Ormond (otherwise Butler), Earl
of Ormond.

2. Elizabeth [Fitz Lewis], wife of John Wingfield, K.B.

3. Margaret [Fitz Lewis], wife of William Lucy, Knt.

This information is in agreement with the record of Anne Montagu's
children as stated in the Hankford account of my book, Plantagenet
Ancestry (2004).

This means, of course, that Henry Fitz Lewis mentioned elsewhere in my
Raynsford account was not the child of Anne Montagu as stated.
Rather, he was clearly a son of his father, Sir Lewis John's 1st
marriage to Alice Vere, which is correctly stated in the Hankford
account.

With regard to the proposed Rodney descent from King John, Gary Boyd
Roberts and I both gladly accept any and all contributions of new
royal lines which anyone may find in the course of their research.
When contacting Gary or me, please provide us such documentation which
will allow us to see if the line is chronologically sound and
supported by standard sources such as wills, inquisitions, visitation
records, etc. I'm interested in all such royal descents. Gary limits
his work to the best royal descent for a given individual.

Best always, Douglas Richardson, Salt Lake City, Utah

E-mail: douglasrichardson@royalancestry.net

Website: http://www.royalancestry.net


jhiggins_sf@earthlink.net ("John Higgins") wrote in message news:<000901c48563$86a17040$cedbf7a5@com>...
RPA/PA3 appears to be inconsistent with respect to the parentage of Sir
Henry FitzLewis (d. 1480). On p. 603 (sub Raynsford), he is said to be son
of Sir Lews John by his 2nd wife Anne Montagu. But on p. 373 (sub Hankford)
Sir Lewis John and Anne Montagu are said to have had 3 daughters only, while
among the children of Sir Lewis John by his 1st wife Alice Vere are listed 5
sons including Henry as the 4th of 5. CP 5:210 lists the 5 sons in the same
order as RPA (from Sir Lewis John's will) without indicating their mother.
Roskell's "House of Commons 1386-1421" (cited by RPA) says in its biography
of Sir Lewis John that two sons were by the 1st marriage and 3 by the 2nd
marriage, which would make Henry a son of Alice Montagu. I suspect that
Roskell's version is probably most accurate here, which would make the RPA
version under Raynsford correct and the version under Hankford incorrect.
Can anyone help to resolve this RPA inconsistancy?

Also in RPA, sub Rodney p. 611-2, a descent from King John is given for
various Rodney immigrants. The earliest Rodney shown in this line is Sir
John Rodney, son of George Rodney and Elizabeth Kirton. But elsewhere in
RPA, sub Hungerford p. 407, is mentioned Margaret, dau. of Walter, 1st Lord
Hungerford, who m. Sir Walter Rodney. Both RD500 and RD600 provide a
connection between Sir Walter Rodney and George Rodney which would provide
another descent from King John to the Rodneys in RPA (as well as a descent
from Henry I - outside the scope of RPA).

John Higgins

"Who begot whom is a most amusing kind of hunting" - Horace Walpole

Douglas Richardson

Re: RPA notes - FitzLewis and Rodney

Legg inn av Douglas Richardson » 19 aug 2004 06:07:59

Dear John ~

Thank you for your good post. You've asked an excellent question.

Complete Peerage 5 (1926): 211, footnote e (sub Exeter) shows that the
surviving children of Anne Montagu (died 1457), wife successively of
Richard Hankford, Knt., Lewis John, Knt., and John Holand, K.G., Duke
of Exeter, were as follows:

1. Anne [Hankford], wife of Thomas Ormond (otherwise Butler), Earl
of Ormond.

2. Elizabeth [Fitz Lewis], wife of John Wingfield, K.B.

3. Margaret [Fitz Lewis], wife of William Lucy, Knt.

This information is in agreement with the record of Anne Montagu's
children as stated in the Hankford account of my book, Plantagenet
Ancestry (2004).

This means, of course, that Henry Fitz Lewis mentioned elsewhere in my
Raynsford account was not the child of Anne Montagu as stated.
Rather, he was clearly a son of his father, Sir Lewis John's 1st
marriage to Alice Vere, which is correctly stated in the Hankford
account.

With regard to the proposed Rodney descent from King John, Gary Boyd
Roberts and I both gladly accept any and all contributions of new
royal lines which anyone may find in the course of their research.
When contacting Gary or me, please provide us such documentation which
will allow us to see if the line is chronologically sound and
supported by standard sources such as wills, inquisitions, visitation
records, etc. I'm interested in all such royal descents. Gary limits
his work to the best royal descent for a given individual.

Best always, Douglas Richardson, Salt Lake City, Utah

E-mail: douglasrichardson@royalancestry.net

Website: http://www.royalancestry.net


jhiggins_sf@earthlink.net ("John Higgins") wrote in message news:<000901c48563$86a17040$cedbf7a5@com>...
RPA/PA3 appears to be inconsistent with respect to the parentage of Sir
Henry FitzLewis (d. 1480). On p. 603 (sub Raynsford), he is said to be son
of Sir Lews John by his 2nd wife Anne Montagu. But on p. 373 (sub Hankford)
Sir Lewis John and Anne Montagu are said to have had 3 daughters only, while
among the children of Sir Lewis John by his 1st wife Alice Vere are listed 5
sons including Henry as the 4th of 5. CP 5:210 lists the 5 sons in the same
order as RPA (from Sir Lewis John's will) without indicating their mother.
Roskell's "House of Commons 1386-1421" (cited by RPA) says in its biography
of Sir Lewis John that two sons were by the 1st marriage and 3 by the 2nd
marriage, which would make Henry a son of Alice Montagu. I suspect that
Roskell's version is probably most accurate here, which would make the RPA
version under Raynsford correct and the version under Hankford incorrect.
Can anyone help to resolve this RPA inconsistancy?

Also in RPA, sub Rodney p. 611-2, a descent from King John is given for
various Rodney immigrants. The earliest Rodney shown in this line is Sir
John Rodney, son of George Rodney and Elizabeth Kirton. But elsewhere in
RPA, sub Hungerford p. 407, is mentioned Margaret, dau. of Walter, 1st Lord
Hungerford, who m. Sir Walter Rodney. Both RD500 and RD600 provide a
connection between Sir Walter Rodney and George Rodney which would provide
another descent from King John to the Rodneys in RPA (as well as a descent
from Henry I - outside the scope of RPA).

John Higgins

"Who begot whom is a most amusing kind of hunting" - Horace Walpole

John Higgins

RE: RPA notes - FitzLewis and Rodney

Legg inn av John Higgins » 19 aug 2004 09:26:21

Thanks for the clarification, and the correction to your Raynsford line,
with respect to FitzLewis. I'm not entirely convinced that the cited
footnote in CP establishes conclusively that Sir Lewis John and Anne Montagu
had ONLY daughters from their marriage, especially since Faris in PA2 used
exactly the same sources and reached a different conclusion. The footnote
is clearly not the full text of the document regarding Anne [Montagu]
FitzLewis (note the ellipses), and the ages given for the daughters in the
document don't necessarily preclude the possibility of sons being born
between the daughters. I believe Roskell in HOP cites additional sources
which may add information on this - I don't have access to them at the
moment. It would be nice to have more definite evidence on this...oh,
well.... we can't have a definite answer to everything.

As to the Rodney line, GBR in RD600 (and previously RD500) has laid out the
connection very clearly. He appears to use the same source that you cite
for the Rodneys, so it should meet your standards. By GBR's definition, it
gives a "better" descent - from John instead of Henry I. (and you've got
both ends of the connection, within the Rodneys, in your book already!!)

John Higgins

"Who begot whom is a most amusing kind of hunting" - Horace Walpole

-----Original Message-----
From: Douglas Richardson [mailto:royalancestry@msn.com]
Sent: Wednesday, August 18, 2004 8:27 PM
To: GEN-MEDIEVAL-L@rootsweb.com
Subject: Re: RPA notes - FitzLewis and Rodney


Dear John ~

Thank you for your good post. You've asked an excellent question.

Complete Peerage 5 (1926): 211, footnote e (sub Exeter) shows that the
surviving children of Anne Montagu (died 1457), wife successively of
Richard Hankford, Knt., Lewis John, Knt., and John Holand, K.G., Duke
of Exeter, were as follows:

1. Anne [Hankford], wife of Thomas Ormond (otherwise Butler), Earl
of Ormond.

2. Elizabeth [Fitz Lewis], wife of John Wingfield, K.B.

3. Margaret [Fitz Lewis], wife of William Lucy, Knt.

This information is in agreement with the record of Anne Montagu's
children as stated in the Hankford account of my book, Plantagenet
Ancestry (2004).

This means, of course, that Henry Fitz Lewis mentioned elsewhere in my
Raynsford account was not the child of Anne Montagu as stated.
Rather, he was clearly a son of his father, Sir Lewis John's 1st
marriage to Alice Vere, which is correctly stated in the Hankford
account.

With regard to the proposed Rodney descent from King John, Gary Boyd
Roberts and I both gladly accept any and all contributions of new
royal lines which anyone may find in the course of their research.
When contacting Gary or me, please provide us such documentation which
will allow us to see if the line is chronologically sound and
supported by standard sources such as wills, inquisitions, visitation
records, etc. I'm interested in all such royal descents. Gary limits
his work to the best royal descent for a given individual.

Best always, Douglas Richardson, Salt Lake City, Utah

E-mail: douglasrichardson@royalancestry.net

Website: http://www.royalancestry.net


jhiggins_sf@earthlink.net ("John Higgins") wrote in message
news:<000901c48563$86a17040$cedbf7a5@com>...
RPA/PA3 appears to be inconsistent with respect to the parentage of Sir
Henry FitzLewis (d. 1480). On p. 603 (sub Raynsford), he is
said to be son
of Sir Lews John by his 2nd wife Anne Montagu. But on p. 373
(sub Hankford)
Sir Lewis John and Anne Montagu are said to have had 3
daughters only, while
among the children of Sir Lewis John by his 1st wife Alice Vere
are listed 5
sons including Henry as the 4th of 5. CP 5:210 lists the 5
sons in the same
order as RPA (from Sir Lewis John's will) without indicating
their mother.
Roskell's "House of Commons 1386-1421" (cited by RPA) says in
its biography
of Sir Lewis John that two sons were by the 1st marriage and 3
by the 2nd
marriage, which would make Henry a son of Alice Montagu. I suspect that
Roskell's version is probably most accurate here, which would
make the RPA
version under Raynsford correct and the version under Hankford
incorrect.
Can anyone help to resolve this RPA inconsistancy?

Also in RPA, sub Rodney p. 611-2, a descent from King John is given for
various Rodney immigrants. The earliest Rodney shown in this
line is Sir
John Rodney, son of George Rodney and Elizabeth Kirton. But
elsewhere in
RPA, sub Hungerford p. 407, is mentioned Margaret, dau. of
Walter, 1st Lord
Hungerford, who m. Sir Walter Rodney. Both RD500 and RD600 provide a
connection between Sir Walter Rodney and George Rodney which
would provide
another descent from King John to the Rodneys in RPA (as well
as a descent
from Henry I - outside the scope of RPA).

John Higgins

"Who begot whom is a most amusing kind of hunting" - Horace Walpole

Douglas Richardson

Re: RPA notes - FitzLewis and Rodney

Legg inn av Douglas Richardson » 19 aug 2004 23:12:08

jhiggins_sf@earthlink.net ("John Higgins") wrote in message news:<000001c485ad$3e026fc0$97fd56d1@com>...
Thanks for the clarification, and the correction to your Raynsford line,
with respect to FitzLewis. I'm not entirely convinced that the cited
footnote in CP establishes conclusively that Sir Lewis John and Anne Montagu
had ONLY daughters from their marriage.

<SNIP>

John Higgins

Dear John ~

The item I cited in Complete Peerage is an abstract of an inquisition
post mortem for Anne Montagu taken in 1458, shortly after her death.
The abstract states that Anne Montagu was survived by three married
daughters, Anne Ormond, Elizabeth Wingfield, and Margaret Lucy, which
daughters are specifically called her heirs. No son whatsoever is
mentioned. In all, inquests were taken in five different counties. I
presume the same finding was returned in all five inquests, although
the editor does not provide us that information. If you wish to
evaluate the entire set of documents more closely, I recommend you
order a copy of them from the Public Record Office. Please advise us
of what you find.

For interest's sake, I've listed below the names of the colonial New
World immigrants who descend from Anne (Montagu) (Hankford) (John)
Holand, Duchess of Exeter. Particulars on the individual descents can
be found in my book, Plantagenet Ancestry (2004).

Elizabeth Alsop, William Asfordby, Mary Bourchier, Francis Dade, Anne
Humphrey, Thomas Lunsford, Herbert Pelham, Diana & Grey Skipwith, John
West

Best always, Douglas Richardson, Salt Lake City, Utah

E-mail: douglasrichardson@royalancestry.net

Website: http://www.royalancestry.net

-----Original Message-----
From: Douglas Richardson [mailto:royalancestry@msn.com]
Sent: Wednesday, August 18, 2004 8:27 PM
To: GEN-MEDIEVAL-L@rootsweb.com
Subject: Re: RPA notes - FitzLewis and Rodney


Dear John ~

Thank you for your good post. You've asked an excellent question.

Complete Peerage 5 (1926): 211, footnote e (sub Exeter) shows that the
surviving children of Anne Montagu (died 1457), wife successively of
Richard Hankford, Knt., Lewis John, Knt., and John Holand, K.G., Duke
of Exeter, were as follows:

1. Anne [Hankford], wife of Thomas Ormond (otherwise Butler), Earl
of Ormond.

2. Elizabeth [Fitz Lewis], wife of John Wingfield, K.B.

3. Margaret [Fitz Lewis], wife of William Lucy, Knt.

This information is in agreement with the record of Anne Montagu's
children as stated in the Hankford account of my book, Plantagenet
Ancestry (2004).

This means, of course, that Henry Fitz Lewis mentioned elsewhere in my
Raynsford account was not the child of Anne Montagu as stated.
Rather, he was clearly a son of his father, Sir Lewis John's 1st
marriage to Alice Vere, which is correctly stated in the Hankford
account.

With regard to the proposed Rodney descent from King John, Gary Boyd
Roberts and I both gladly accept any and all contributions of new
royal lines which anyone may find in the course of their research.
When contacting Gary or me, please provide us such documentation which
will allow us to see if the line is chronologically sound and
supported by standard sources such as wills, inquisitions, visitation
records, etc. I'm interested in all such royal descents. Gary limits
his work to the best royal descent for a given individual.

Best always, Douglas Richardson, Salt Lake City, Utah

E-mail: douglasrichardson@royalancestry.net

Website: http://www.royalancestry.net


jhiggins_sf@earthlink.net ("John Higgins") wrote in message
news:<000901c48563$86a17040$cedbf7a5@com>...
RPA/PA3 appears to be inconsistent with respect to the parentage of Sir
Henry FitzLewis (d. 1480). On p. 603 (sub Raynsford), he is
said to be son
of Sir Lews John by his 2nd wife Anne Montagu. But on p. 373
(sub Hankford)
Sir Lewis John and Anne Montagu are said to have had 3
daughters only, while
among the children of Sir Lewis John by his 1st wife Alice Vere
are listed 5
sons including Henry as the 4th of 5. CP 5:210 lists the 5
sons in the same
order as RPA (from Sir Lewis John's will) without indicating
their mother.
Roskell's "House of Commons 1386-1421" (cited by RPA) says in
its biography
of Sir Lewis John that two sons were by the 1st marriage and 3
by the 2nd
marriage, which would make Henry a son of Alice Montagu. I suspect that
Roskell's version is probably most accurate here, which would
make the RPA
version under Raynsford correct and the version under Hankford
incorrect.
Can anyone help to resolve this RPA inconsistancy?

Also in RPA, sub Rodney p. 611-2, a descent from King John is given for
various Rodney immigrants. The earliest Rodney shown in this
line is Sir
John Rodney, son of George Rodney and Elizabeth Kirton. But
elsewhere in
RPA, sub Hungerford p. 407, is mentioned Margaret, dau. of
Walter, 1st Lord
Hungerford, who m. Sir Walter Rodney. Both RD500 and RD600 provide a
connection between Sir Walter Rodney and George Rodney which
would provide
another descent from King John to the Rodneys in RPA (as well
as a descent
from Henry I - outside the scope of RPA).

John Higgins

"Who begot whom is a most amusing kind of hunting" - Horace Walpole

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