Hastings - Hildyard - Ayscough - Bellingham

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John Higgins

Hastings - Hildyard - Ayscough - Bellingham

Legg inn av John Higgins » 15 aug 2004 00:00:11

GBR in RD600 p. 316 shows the following (partial) descent from Edward I:

9. Elizabeth Hastings = Sir Robert Hildyard

10. Margery [otherwise called Margaret] Hildyard = Sir William Ayscough [as
his 1st wife]

11. Sir William Ayscough = Elizabeth Wrottesley

12. Jane Ayscough = Richard Disney

13. Susan Disney = Alexander Amcotts

14. Frances Amcotts = William Bellingham

15. Richard Bellingham (c. 1592-1672), colonial governor of Mass.

A few months ago John Brandon raised a question about the parentage of #13
Susan Disney. I'm wondering now about the parentage of #10 Margery/Margaret
Hildyard.

An Ayscough pedigree in Rev. A. R. Maddison's Lincolnshire Pedigrees (HSP v.
50), apparently a source for GBR, says Margaret was dau. of Sir Robert
Hildyard without specifying his wife. But the Hildyard pedigrees in the
various visitations of Yorkshire (at least Flower and Glover) are in
conflict regarding the marriage of the Margery who was a dau. of Sir Robert
and Elizabeth Hastings. Flower's visitation of 1563/4 (HSP v. 16) supports
GBR's descent, but Foster's 1875 edition of Glover's visitation of 1584/5
says she was m. to Robert Hyde of Norbury, Cheshire, not Sir William
Ayscough. The only other one of GBR's sources that might confirm this is
Foster's Yorkshire Pedigrees, which is not very reliable.

Is there any better evidence for this Margery's parentage? I note that the
newly published Plantagenet Ancestry does not show this descent for Richard
Bellingham (although he is mentioned because his wife has a royal descent)
and does not list a Margery or Margaret m. to Sir William Ayscough in the
children of Elizabeth Hastings and Sir Robert Hildyard.

Any thoughts on this?

John Higgins

"Who begot whom is a most amusing kind of hunting" - Horace Walpole

Kevan Barton

RE: Hastings - Hildyard - Ayscough - Bellingham

Legg inn av Kevan Barton » 15 aug 2004 04:48:35

John,

This is a good question. Perhaps I can help. Sir William Ayscough and
Margery Hiliard's M.I. still exists at Stallingborough, Lincolnshire. This
brass is a portraiture of the couple and provides the arms, "Sable, a fess
Or between three asses passant Argent, manes, tails, and hooves as the
second," for Ayscough. Margery is in period costume adorned with these
coast quarterly, "Azure a Chevron Argent Between three mullets of five
points Or", (for Hiliard)and "On a bend three escallops between six cups
covered" (note the lack of tinctures in this last one). Could this second
arms be those of Hastings, de la Hay, or Hilton? (Any help on this question
would be appreciated.) It should be stated too that Margery's arms were not
included in later generation escutcheons. This would infer that she is not
an heiress.

The Latin epitaph can be translated:

Under this cold marble, no small tribute, lie buried the bones of the
soldier William Ayscough; joined with whom lies his chaste Margery, she the
daughter of Sir Robert Hiliard.
Wedded man - Holy Trinity, only God, have mercy on us
Wife -
Free us, your family, O blessed Trinity.

Sorry if the Latin is a little odd in the prose, but I'm not a Latin
scholar. Anyway, the above information comes from:

The Publications of the Lincoln Record Society, Established in the year
1910, Volume I. p. 74-77
which gives the inscription and arms and
Derek Wilson, "A Tudor Tapestry: Men, Women, and Society in Reformation
England", (London: Heinemann,1971), which provides a picture of the
monument.

One of the problems folks have had in researching the Ayscoughs is in
combining William Ayscoughs, father and son, into a single generation. This
might be what you are seeing.
The William Ayscough that married Margery Hildyard was Sheriff of Lincoln
1500, 1505, 1508 and died 26 Mar Henry VII (1509) (Maddison: Lincolnshire
Pedigrees). I don't know when Margery died.

Flower's Visitation of Yorkshire (1563/64), under Hyllyard, p. 171, does
indeed state that Margery's parents were "Sir Robert Hyllyard by Elsabeth,
doughter of John Hastynges of Fenwycke."

Anyway, I do hope this helps. There certainly was an Ayscough/Hildyard
match. I'll also note that Foster's, "Peds of the County Families of
Yorkshire" also support the Hildyard match with the same parents for
Margery. What is the basis for the Hyde marriage? Is there supporting
evidence, primary or such, that would contradict the possibility of an
Ayscough/Hildyard marriage? I note that Douglas' PA3 gives Hyde. What
sayeth though Douglas?

Cheers,
Kevan

John Higgins

RE: Hastings - Hildyard - Ayscough - Bellingham

Legg inn av John Higgins » 15 aug 2004 05:37:39

I'm not at all knowledgable on heraldic matters, but I don't think the
unidentifed arms you describe below are those of Hastings, whose arms are
identified in the latest BP as "or a maunch gules". But someone more
informed on heraldry than me can better address this...

I don't think it's a matter here of confusing the two William Ayscoughs.
RD600 clearly follows Maddison and separates the two.

Although Flower's visitation clears says Margaret/Margery m. Sir William
Ayscough, Foster's edition of Glover's visitation clears says she m. Robert
Hyde of Norbury. These are both secondary sources - it's not clear whether
either RD600 or RPA relied on any primary sources. It seems that each chose
one of the secondary sources without taking account of the discrepancy in
the other source. It would have been helpful if at least one of the two had
noted the issue and explained why one source was preferable to the other.

As you suggest, perhaps Doug Richardson can clarify his position on this.

John Higgins

"Who begot whom is a most amusing kind of hunting" - Horace Walpole

-----Original Message-----
From: Kevan Barton [mailto:kevanbarton@adelphia.net]
Sent: Saturday, August 14, 2004 5:49 PM
To: GEN-MEDIEVAL-L@rootsweb.com
Subject: RE: Hastings - Hildyard - Ayscough - Bellingham


John,

This is a good question. Perhaps I can help. Sir William Ayscough and
Margery Hiliard's M.I. still exists at Stallingborough,
Lincolnshire. This
brass is a portraiture of the couple and provides the arms, "Sable, a fess
Or between three asses passant Argent, manes, tails, and hooves as the
second," for Ayscough. Margery is in period costume adorned with these
coast quarterly, "Azure a Chevron Argent Between three mullets of five
points Or", (for Hiliard)and "On a bend three escallops between six cups
covered" (note the lack of tinctures in this last one). Could this second
arms be those of Hastings, de la Hay, or Hilton? (Any help on
this question
would be appreciated.) It should be stated too that Margery's
arms were not
included in later generation escutcheons. This would infer that
she is not
an heiress.

The Latin epitaph can be translated:

Under this cold marble, no small tribute, lie buried the bones of the
soldier William Ayscough; joined with whom lies his chaste
Margery, she the
daughter of Sir Robert Hiliard.
Wedded man - Holy Trinity, only God, have mercy on us
Wife -
Free us, your family, O blessed Trinity.

Sorry if the Latin is a little odd in the prose, but I'm not a Latin
scholar. Anyway, the above information comes from:

The Publications of the Lincoln Record Society, Established in the year
1910, Volume I. p. 74-77
which gives the inscription and arms and
Derek Wilson, "A Tudor Tapestry: Men, Women, and Society in Reformation
England", (London: Heinemann,1971), which provides a picture of the
monument.

One of the problems folks have had in researching the Ayscoughs is in
combining William Ayscoughs, father and son, into a single
generation. This
might be what you are seeing.
The William Ayscough that married Margery Hildyard was Sheriff of Lincoln
1500, 1505, 1508 and died 26 Mar Henry VII (1509) (Maddison: Lincolnshire
Pedigrees). I don't know when Margery died.

Flower's Visitation of Yorkshire (1563/64), under Hyllyard, p. 171, does
indeed state that Margery's parents were "Sir Robert Hyllyard by Elsabeth,
doughter of John Hastynges of Fenwycke."

Anyway, I do hope this helps. There certainly was an Ayscough/Hildyard
match. I'll also note that Foster's, "Peds of the County Families of
Yorkshire" also support the Hildyard match with the same parents for
Margery. What is the basis for the Hyde marriage? Is there supporting
evidence, primary or such, that would contradict the possibility of an
Ayscough/Hildyard marriage? I note that Douglas' PA3 gives Hyde. What
sayeth though Douglas?

Cheers,
Kevan



Tim Powys-Lybbe

RE: Hastings - Hildyard - Ayscough - Bellingham

Legg inn av Tim Powys-Lybbe » 15 aug 2004 09:49:39

In message of 15 Aug, jhiggins_sf@earthlink.net ("John Higgins") wrote:

I'm not at all knowledgable on heraldic matters, but I don't think the
unidentifed arms you describe below are those of Hastings, whose arms
are identified in the latest BP as "or a maunch gules". But someone
more informed on heraldry than me can better address this...

In Burke's General Armory there are 27 _different_ Hastings arms though
perhaps half are variations on the maunch theme. There is no such
thing as "The (single) arms of a name".

For the arms described below:

"On a bend three escallops between six cups covered" (note the lack
of tinctures in this last one).

(The tinctures are almost certainly lacking because the blazon is taken
from a brass.)

There is nothing quite like them in Fairbairn's Ordinary of Arms.

I don't think it's a matter here of confusing the two William
Ayscoughs. RD600 clearly follows Maddison and separates the two.

Although Flower's visitation clears says Margaret/Margery m. Sir
William Ayscough, Foster's edition of Glover's visitation clears says
she m. Robert Hyde of Norbury. These are both secondary sources -
it's not clear whether either RD600 or RPA relied on any primary
sources. It seems that each chose one of the secondary sources
without taking account of the discrepancy in the other source. It
would have been helpful if at least one of the two had noted the
issue and explained why one source was preferable to the other.

As you suggest, perhaps Doug Richardson can clarify his position on this.

John Higgins

"Who begot whom is a most amusing kind of hunting" - Horace Walpole

-----Original Message-----
From: Kevan Barton [mailto:kevanbarton@adelphia.net]
Sent: Saturday, August 14, 2004 5:49 PM
To: GEN-MEDIEVAL-L@rootsweb.com
Subject: RE: Hastings - Hildyard - Ayscough - Bellingham


John,

This is a good question. Perhaps I can help. Sir William Ayscough and
Margery Hiliard's M.I. still exists at Stallingborough,
Lincolnshire. This
brass is a portraiture of the couple and provides the arms, "Sable, a fess
Or between three asses passant Argent, manes, tails, and hooves as the
second," for Ayscough. Margery is in period costume adorned with these
coast quarterly, "Azure a Chevron Argent Between three mullets of five
points Or", (for Hiliard)and "On a bend three escallops between six cups
covered" (note the lack of tinctures in this last one). Could this second
arms be those of Hastings, de la Hay, or Hilton? (Any help on
this question
would be appreciated.) It should be stated too that Margery's
arms were not
included in later generation escutcheons. This would infer that
she is not
an heiress.

The Latin epitaph can be translated:

Under this cold marble, no small tribute, lie buried the bones of the
soldier William Ayscough; joined with whom lies his chaste
Margery, she the
daughter of Sir Robert Hiliard.
Wedded man - Holy Trinity, only God, have mercy on us
Wife -
Free us, your family, O blessed Trinity.

Sorry if the Latin is a little odd in the prose, but I'm not a Latin
scholar. Anyway, the above information comes from:

The Publications of the Lincoln Record Society, Established in the year
1910, Volume I. p. 74-77
which gives the inscription and arms and
Derek Wilson, "A Tudor Tapestry: Men, Women, and Society in Reformation
England", (London: Heinemann,1971), which provides a picture of the
monument.

One of the problems folks have had in researching the Ayscoughs is in
combining William Ayscoughs, father and son, into a single
generation. This
might be what you are seeing.
The William Ayscough that married Margery Hildyard was Sheriff of Lincoln
1500, 1505, 1508 and died 26 Mar Henry VII (1509) (Maddison: Lincolnshire
Pedigrees). I don't know when Margery died.

Flower's Visitation of Yorkshire (1563/64), under Hyllyard, p. 171, does
indeed state that Margery's parents were "Sir Robert Hyllyard by Elsabeth,
doughter of John Hastynges of Fenwycke."

Anyway, I do hope this helps. There certainly was an Ayscough/Hildyard
match. I'll also note that Foster's, "Peds of the County Families of
Yorkshire" also support the Hildyard match with the same parents for
Margery. What is the basis for the Hyde marriage? Is there supporting
evidence, primary or such, that would contradict the possibility of an
Ayscough/Hildyard marriage? I note that Douglas' PA3 gives Hyde. What
sayeth though Douglas?

--
Tim Powys-Lybbe tim@powys.org
For a miscellany of bygones: http://powys.org

Kevan Barton

RE: Hastings - Hildyard - Ayscough - Bellingham

Legg inn av Kevan Barton » 15 aug 2004 13:54:58

Indeed. The fact that the arms were taken from a brass was the assumption I
was making when I mentioned the lack of tinctures. The fact that the author
of the one article I used provided tinctures for the Hildyard arms, but not
for the one in question could also infer he didn't identify them himself. I
sent the question over to the heraldry mailing list last night and I'll
provide the result here, if I get a result.

As for where I lean, I'll keep the Hildyard/Hastings connection for the
Margery Hildyard who married William Ayscough. A brass from the period, and
a somewhat contemporaneous supporting visitation (1563) coming from the
great grand children may be the only primary source we have.

Cheers,
Kevan

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