FW: Re: Redux: Joanna, daughter of Edward III, birthplace Wo

Moderator: MOD_nyhetsgrupper

Svar
John Parsons

FW: Re: Redux: Joanna, daughter of Edward III, birthplace Wo

Legg inn av John Parsons » 13 aug 2004 15:24:39

From: "Chris Phillips" <cgp@medievalgenealogy.org.uk>
To: "John Parsons" <carmi47@msn.com>
Subject: Re: Redux: Joanna, daughter of Edward III, birthplace Woodstock vs.
Tower
Date: Thu, 12 Aug 2004 19:16:03 +0100

Dear John

Thank you for your reply. It only goes to show what care is needed in
interpreting isolated pieces of evidence!

[snip]

Best wishes

Chris


----- Original Message -----
From: "John Parsons" <carmi47@msn.com
To: <cgp@medievalgenealogy.org.uk
Sent: Thursday, August 12, 2004 4:36 PM
Subject: Re: Redux: Joanna, daughter of Edward III, birthplace Woodstock
vs.
Tower


As far as I can see, the royal wardrobe records that are strictly
contemporary with Joan's birth must be given preference to later clerical
references to her.

Confusion among royal clerks can never be ruled out, particularly with a
family as large as that of Edward III. For examples from the reign of
Edward I that specifically relate to problems that such confusion created
regarding what we know of their children, see my article on the 16
children of Edward I and Eleanor of Castile in *Medieval Studies* (1984),
especially pp. 252-53 on the problems clerks had w/the foreign name of
their son
Alphonso (1273-84) and the consequent belief (which persisted for
centuries)
that this couple had a daughter Alice, who never existed in fact; and Hilda
Johnstone's edition of the last wardrobe account of Edward and Eleanor's
son Henry (1268-74), in *Bulletin of the John Rylands Library* (1923), p.
16,
where Johnstone admits that the clerks of Henry's wardrobe somehow never
recorded precise information on the date of his death, to the extent that
we
can state with certainty only that he died between 14 and 17 October
1274.

We might note too that Edward III's daughter Blanche was unquestionably
born
at the Tower in January 1343, only to die the following March.

John P.


From: "Chris Phillips" <cgp@medievalgenealogy.org.uk
To: GEN-MEDIEVAL-L@rootsweb.com
Subject: Re: Redux: Joanna, daughter of Edward III, birthplace
Woodstock
vs. Tower
Date: Thu, 12 Aug 2004 15:38:32 +0100

Sutliff wrote [quoting John Carmi Parsons]:
"Edward III's daughter Joanna was born at Woodstock. No room for
question
there. Even though Lane's *Royal Daughters of England* (1911) is
often
out
of whack on the medieval royal ladies, he at least had the sense to
rely
for
vital statistics on Mary Anne Everett Wood Green's *Lives of the
Princesses
of England from the Norman Conquest* which was published in 6
volumes
in
the
1850s. Unlike Lane, Green was an experienced archivist--she edited
several
volumes of State Papers for the Record Office--and enjoyed
unhindered
access
to the records in what is now the Public Record Office. While
Philippa's
accounts unfortunately do not survive, Edward's do, and they contain
a
great
deal of information about their children's births since it was
customary
for
the king to bear the queen's expenses in her confinements and the
costs
of
the elaborate celebrations for christenings and the queen's
churchings.
The
original documentation proves amply that Joan (or Joanna) came into
the
world at the royal manor of Woodstock."

This leaves me a bit puzzled at how to interpret the entry from the
patent
roll posted by Douglas Richardson previously:

Date: 20 Feb. 1348.
"Protection with clause nolumus, for one year, for Master Andrew de
Offard, king's clerk, prebendary of South Neubald, in the church of
St. Peter, York, and of the prebend called St. Laurence's Portion, in
the collegiate church of Romeseye, and of the chapel of Immere,
annexed to the samer and parson of the church of Ovre, going to Spain
in the company of the king's daughter, Joan de la Tour." [Reference:
Calendar of Patent Rolls, 1348-1350 (1905): 26].

Another entry on the PRO online catalogue is as follows:

E 213/16
Receipt by William de Medewill to Ralph de Bryt, late sheriff, for 2s.
6d.
the price of hay bought for the voyage of Dame Joan de la Tour towards
Spain. Devon.
22 Edw. I

It seems this should really relate to 22 Edward III (1348-1349) -
according
to this online list of sheriffs from Tristram Risdon, "Survey of
Devon",
Ralph Britt was sheriff of Devon in 21 Edward III:
http://freepages.genealogy.rootsweb.com ... eriffs.htm

Presumably these references do relate to Edward III's daughter Joan,
rather
than Edward II's daughter Joan, the Queen of Scotland. Should we
conclude
that Joan was born at Woodstock, but was for some reason known as "Joan
of
the Tower"?

Chris Phillips








Svar

Gå tilbake til «soc.genealogy.medieval»