Edward Stradling's alleged illegitimate children

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Douglas Richardson

Edward Stradling's alleged illegitimate children

Legg inn av Douglas Richardson » 12 aug 2004 20:08:27

Dear Newsgroup ~

With respect to Brice Clagett's recent question regarding the alleged
illegitimate children of Sir Edward Stradling (died 1452)(husband of
Joan Beaufort), the standard source on the Stradling family is a well
researched article written by the noted historian, Ralph A. Griffith,
which article can be found in the periodical, Morgannwg, 7 (1963):
15–47. Mr. Griffith assigns Sir Edward and his wife, Joan, three
sons, namely Henry, Knt., John (clerk) [Archdeacon of Llandaff], and
David. There is no mention that Sir Edward Stradling had any
illegitimate children.

Peter C. Bartrum likewise has an account of the Stradling family in
his book, Welsh Genealogies, A.D. 1400-1500, 10 (1983): 1621, et seq.
He assigns Sir Edward Stradling and his wife, Joan Beaufort, one
legitimate son, Sir Harry Stradling. Bartrum makes no mention of any
illegitimate children.

Mr. Clagett is correct in stating that Limbus Patrum Morganiae et
Glamorganiae (1886), by Clark, page 435 lists several bastards of Sir
Edward Stradling. I've copied below what Clark says:

"Sir Edward Stradling was of St. Donat's, Hawey, East Orchard, Coyty,
etc. 13 Henry IV. he inherited the Berkerolles estates and their
claims on the Turberville inheritance, of which he obtained one
quarter. Edward Stradling, chevalier, 1 Henry VI., was paying yearly
20 marcs to the Treasurer of England for custody of two parts of the
lands of the Hundred of Langley, co. Gloucester, which had belonged to
Gilbert Denys, deceased, and now to his son Maurice, a minor. William
Stradlyng of co. Somerset was one of his sureties. He died at
Jerusalem, having become a Knight of the Sepulchre. He quartered
Berkrolles, Turberville, Jestyn, and St. Barbe; but his ordinary seal
seems to have borne Stradling, quartering 3 bars wavy. He married
Jane daughter of Henry, afterwards Cardinal Beaufort, by Alice,
daughter of Richard, Earl of Arundel. He had 1. Harry. Of base
children: 2. John, ancestor of Stradling of Gelligaer. 3. William,
ancestor of Stradling of Broviscin. 4. Peter Stradling, ancestor of a
cadet branch. 5. Jenkin, ancestor of a cadet branch. 6. Bride
Stradling, m. Lleisan ap Lewis John of Baglan. 7. Mary Stradling, m.
Jenkin Stradling of Kenfig." END OF QUOTE.

As stated above, Clark assigns six bastard children of Sir Edward
Stradling, but this appears to be an error. According to Peter C.
Bartrum's charts on the Stradling family, the six bastard children
mentioned by Clark actually belong to a much later Sir Edward
Stradling (died 1535), which individual is known to have had many
illegitimate children [see Peter Bartrum, Welsh Genealogies, A.D.
1400-1500, 10 (1983): 1623].

So, unless someone has evidence to show otherwise, it would appear
Clark's claims that Sir Edward Stradling (died 1452) had illegitimate
issue are false. Rather, it would seem that Clark carelessly confused
Sir Edward Stradling's issue with that of his great-grandson of the
same name. This is surely a honest mistake.

I find it interesting that Clark mentions that Sir Edward Stradling
(died 1452) was paying 20 marks to the Treasurer of England in 1 Henry
VI. [1422-3] for the lands which belonged to Maurice Denys, a minor.
Maurice Denys was, of course, Sir Edward Stradling's eventual
son-in-law, being married to his legitimate daughter, Joan (or
Katherine).

Best always, Douglas Richardson, Salt Lake City, Utah

E-mail: douglasrichardson@royalancestry.net

John Higgins

RE: Edward Stradling's alleged illegitimate children

Legg inn av John Higgins » 13 aug 2004 11:05:07

This is an excellent summary of a couple of key sources regarding the
possible illegitimate children of Sir Edward Stradling. But it doesn't
really address the basic issue of whether Joan (or Katherine) Stradling who
m. Maurice Denys was legitimate or illegitimate.
The mere fact that these sources don't itemize her as an illegitimate child
doesn't prove anything, since they also don't itemize her as a legitimate
daughter of Sir Edward. One could perhaps argue that the fact that she's
overlooked entirely is more likely to be evidence that she was illegitimate
rather than legitimate.

Louise Staley pointed out in February that NONE of the 15 sources cited in
RPA/PA3 support the assertion that Joan/Katherine Stradling was a daughter
of Sir Edward by his wife Jane Beaufort. If so, what remaining evidence is
there for this parentage?

(I haven't yet seen Brad Verity's article in 'Foundations', but I'm a bit
surprised that he's still "non-committal" on this, as characterized by Brice
Clagett)

John Higgins

"Who begot whom is a most amusing kind of hunting" - Horace Walpole

-----Original Message-----
From: Douglas Richardson [mailto:royalancestry@msn.com]
Sent: Thursday, August 12, 2004 11:08 AM
To: GEN-MEDIEVAL-L@rootsweb.com
Subject: Edward Stradling's alleged illegitimate children


Dear Newsgroup ~

With respect to Brice Clagett's recent question regarding the alleged
illegitimate children of Sir Edward Stradling (died 1452)(husband of
Joan Beaufort), the standard source on the Stradling family is a well
researched article written by the noted historian, Ralph A. Griffith,
which article can be found in the periodical, Morgannwg, 7 (1963):
15–47. Mr. Griffith assigns Sir Edward and his wife, Joan, three
sons, namely Henry, Knt., John (clerk) [Archdeacon of Llandaff], and
David. There is no mention that Sir Edward Stradling had any
illegitimate children.

Peter C. Bartrum likewise has an account of the Stradling family in
his book, Welsh Genealogies, A.D. 1400-1500, 10 (1983): 1621, et seq.
He assigns Sir Edward Stradling and his wife, Joan Beaufort, one
legitimate son, Sir Harry Stradling. Bartrum makes no mention of any
illegitimate children.

Mr. Clagett is correct in stating that Limbus Patrum Morganiae et
Glamorganiae (1886), by Clark, page 435 lists several bastards of Sir
Edward Stradling. I've copied below what Clark says:

"Sir Edward Stradling was of St. Donat's, Hawey, East Orchard, Coyty,
etc. 13 Henry IV. he inherited the Berkerolles estates and their
claims on the Turberville inheritance, of which he obtained one
quarter. Edward Stradling, chevalier, 1 Henry VI., was paying yearly
20 marcs to the Treasurer of England for custody of two parts of the
lands of the Hundred of Langley, co. Gloucester, which had belonged to
Gilbert Denys, deceased, and now to his son Maurice, a minor. William
Stradlyng of co. Somerset was one of his sureties. He died at
Jerusalem, having become a Knight of the Sepulchre. He quartered
Berkrolles, Turberville, Jestyn, and St. Barbe; but his ordinary seal
seems to have borne Stradling, quartering 3 bars wavy. He married
Jane daughter of Henry, afterwards Cardinal Beaufort, by Alice,
daughter of Richard, Earl of Arundel. He had 1. Harry. Of base
children: 2. John, ancestor of Stradling of Gelligaer. 3. William,
ancestor of Stradling of Broviscin. 4. Peter Stradling, ancestor of a
cadet branch. 5. Jenkin, ancestor of a cadet branch. 6. Bride
Stradling, m. Lleisan ap Lewis John of Baglan. 7. Mary Stradling, m.
Jenkin Stradling of Kenfig." END OF QUOTE.

As stated above, Clark assigns six bastard children of Sir Edward
Stradling, but this appears to be an error. According to Peter C.
Bartrum's charts on the Stradling family, the six bastard children
mentioned by Clark actually belong to a much later Sir Edward
Stradling (died 1535), which individual is known to have had many
illegitimate children [see Peter Bartrum, Welsh Genealogies, A.D.
1400-1500, 10 (1983): 1623].

So, unless someone has evidence to show otherwise, it would appear
Clark's claims that Sir Edward Stradling (died 1452) had illegitimate
issue are false. Rather, it would seem that Clark carelessly confused
Sir Edward Stradling's issue with that of his great-grandson of the
same name. This is surely a honest mistake.

I find it interesting that Clark mentions that Sir Edward Stradling
(died 1452) was paying 20 marks to the Treasurer of England in 1 Henry
VI. [1422-3] for the lands which belonged to Maurice Denys, a minor.
Maurice Denys was, of course, Sir Edward Stradling's eventual
son-in-law, being married to his legitimate daughter, Joan (or
Katherine).

Best always, Douglas Richardson, Salt Lake City, Utah

E-mail: douglasrichardson@royalancestry.net

Tim Powys-Lybbe

RE: Edward Stradling's alleged illegitimate children

Legg inn av Tim Powys-Lybbe » 13 aug 2004 13:35:53

In message of 13 Aug, jhiggins_sf@earthlink.net ("John Higgins") wrote:

(I haven't yet seen Brad Verity's article in 'Foundations', but I'm a
bit surprised that he's still "non-committal" on this, as
characterized by Brice Clagett)

It should be on http://fmg.ac/ but it needs advanced browsing technology
that I am not prepared to use, much as most people use it. You have to
join FMG to see it.

Or you can subscribe for the printed version (my choice). I thought the
article was superb and would recommend the whole issue.

--
Tim Powys-Lybbe tim@powys.org
For a miscellany of bygones: http://powys.org

Brad Verity

Re: Edward Stradling's alleged illegitimate children

Legg inn av Brad Verity » 13 aug 2004 14:09:54

royalancestry@msn.com (Douglas Richardson) wrote in message news:

With respect to Brice Clagett's recent question regarding the alleged
illegitimate children of Sir Edward Stradling (died 1452)

I think he died in 1453, and the writ of diem clausit extremum in the
Calendar of Fine Rolls is misdated - I don't have my copy of the page
in front of me however.

(husband of
Joan Beaufort), the standard source on the Stradling family is a well
researched article written by the noted historian, Ralph A. Griffith,
which article can be found in the periodical, Morgannwg, 7 (1963):
15?47. Mr. Griffith assigns Sir Edward and his wife, Joan, three
sons, namely Henry, Knt., John (clerk) [Archdeacon of Llandaff], and
David. There is no mention that Sir Edward Stradling had any
illegitimate children.

Correct. Also no mention of any legitimate daughters.

Peter C. Bartrum likewise has an account of the Stradling family in
his book, Welsh Genealogies, A.D. 1400-1500, 10 (1983): 1621, et seq.
He assigns Sir Edward Stradling and his wife, Joan Beaufort, one
legitimate son, Sir Harry Stradling. Bartrum makes no mention of any
illegitimate children.

Correct. Also no assignment of any legitimate daughters.

Mr. Clagett is correct in stating that Limbus Patrum Morganiae et
Glamorganiae (1886), by Clark, page 435 lists several bastards of Sir
Edward Stradling. I've copied below what Clark says:

Thank you - this was the source I used for the statement I made in my
article.

[snip]
As stated above, Clark assigns six bastard children of Sir Edward
Stradling, but this appears to be an error. According to Peter C.
Bartrum's charts on the Stradling family, the six bastard children
mentioned by Clark actually belong to a much later Sir Edward
Stradling (died 1535), which individual is known to have had many
illegitimate children [see Peter Bartrum, Welsh Genealogies, A.D.
1400-1500, 10 (1983): 1623].

I have done no research on these illegitimate Stradlings. Have you
checked their dates and chronology to confirm Bartrum, and not Clark,
was correct in their placement?

So, unless someone has evidence to show otherwise, it would appear
Clark's claims that Sir Edward Stradling (died 1452) had illegitimate
issue are false. Rather, it would seem that Clark carelessly confused
Sir Edward Stradling's issue with that of his great-grandson of the
same name. This is surely a honest mistake.

How do you know it wasn't Bartrum who made the honest mistake? Dates
for these Stradling bastards would be helpful, if you have any.

I find it interesting that Clark mentions that Sir Edward Stradling
(died 1452) was paying 20 marks to the Treasurer of England in 1 Henry
VI. [1422-3] for the lands which belonged to Maurice Denys, a minor.

Yes, Stradling received custody of two-thirds of the Dennys lands in
1422, and with that had to pay rent annually to the crown for the
privilege.

Maurice Denys was, of course, Sir Edward Stradling's eventual
son-in-law, being married to his legitimate daughter, Joan (or
Katherine).

It's likely Maurice's marriage had already been arranged before 1422,
since it wasn't included in the grant of lands - or granted out
afterwards to anyone. There is no 15th century evidence of a Joan
Stradling who married Maurice Dennys, or of a Katherine Stradling who
married Maurice Dennys or Watkin Wynston. Since there's no
contemporary evidence of them themselves, there's no contemporary
evidence of who their father and mother were.

Cheers, -----Brad

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