Redux: Joanna, daughter of Edward III, birthplace Woodstock

Moderator: MOD_nyhetsgrupper

Svar
Sutliff

Redux: Joanna, daughter of Edward III, birthplace Woodstock

Legg inn av Sutliff » 12 aug 2004 07:22:41

On December 23, 2002 Douglas Richardson posted that I was wrong in a
previous post, recording the second daughter (and third child) of Edward III
and Philippa of Hainault as Joanna of Woodstock. Richardson said I was wrong
and that his research indicated she was born in the Tower of London.
Presumably this identification is in PA3.

I answered Richardson by stating that I believed his citations instead
referred to Joan de la Tour, sister of Edward III for whom there is no doubt
that she was born in the Tower of London. Richardson maintained his position
although I did not feel he satisfactorily proved his assertion/discovery.

Although Richardson considered the case closed with his pronouncement. I
have remained unconvinced by his research.

What a welcome it was this week when eminent author John Carmi Parsons
returned to this list after several years absence. John is one of the
greatest authorities on medieval queenship and has worked extensively in
primary documents (Richardson uses secondary sources). Parson's book
_Eleanor of Castile: Queen and Society in Thirteenth-Century England_ (New
York: St. Martin's Press, 1998) belongs in every medieval library.

I knew if anyone could resolve this, Parsons would have the answer. And he
does:

"Edward III's daughter Joanna was born at Woodstock. No room for question
there. Even though Lane's *Royal Daughters of England* (1911) is often out
of whack on the medieval royal ladies, he at least had the sense to rely for
vital statistics on Mary Anne Everett Wood Green's *Lives of the Princesses
of England from the Norman Conquest* which was published in 6 volumes in the
1850s. Unlike Lane, Green was an experienced archivist--she edited several
volumes of State Papers for the Record Office--and enjoyed unhindered access
to the records in what is now the Public Record Office. While Philippa's
accounts unfortunately do not survive, Edward's do, and they contain a great
deal of information about their children's births since it was customary for
the king to bear the queen's expenses in her confinements and the costs of
the elaborate celebrations for christenings and the queen's churchings. The
original documentation proves amply that Joan (or Joanna) came into the
world at the royal manor of Woodstock."

I appreciate John for letting me quote (to SGM) his answer to my private
query..

HS

Chris Phillips

Re: Redux: Joanna, daughter of Edward III, birthplace Woodst

Legg inn av Chris Phillips » 12 aug 2004 16:38:32

Sutliff wrote [quoting John Carmi Parsons]:
"Edward III's daughter Joanna was born at Woodstock. No room for question
there. Even though Lane's *Royal Daughters of England* (1911) is often out
of whack on the medieval royal ladies, he at least had the sense to rely
for
vital statistics on Mary Anne Everett Wood Green's *Lives of the
Princesses
of England from the Norman Conquest* which was published in 6 volumes in
the
1850s. Unlike Lane, Green was an experienced archivist--she edited several
volumes of State Papers for the Record Office--and enjoyed unhindered
access
to the records in what is now the Public Record Office. While Philippa's
accounts unfortunately do not survive, Edward's do, and they contain a
great
deal of information about their children's births since it was customary
for
the king to bear the queen's expenses in her confinements and the costs of
the elaborate celebrations for christenings and the queen's churchings.
The
original documentation proves amply that Joan (or Joanna) came into the
world at the royal manor of Woodstock."

This leaves me a bit puzzled at how to interpret the entry from the patent
roll posted by Douglas Richardson previously:

Date: 20 Feb. 1348.
"Protection with clause nolumus, for one year, for Master Andrew de
Offard, king's clerk, prebendary of South Neubald, in the church of
St. Peter, York, and of the prebend called St. Laurence's Portion, in
the collegiate church of Romeseye, and of the chapel of Immere,
annexed to the samer and parson of the church of Ovre, going to Spain
in the company of the king's daughter, Joan de la Tour." [Reference:
Calendar of Patent Rolls, 1348-1350 (1905): 26].

Another entry on the PRO online catalogue is as follows:

E 213/16
Receipt by William de Medewill to Ralph de Bryt, late sheriff, for 2s. 6d.
the price of hay bought for the voyage of Dame Joan de la Tour towards
Spain. Devon.
22 Edw. I

It seems this should really relate to 22 Edward III (1348-1349) - according
to this online list of sheriffs from Tristram Risdon, "Survey of Devon",
Ralph Britt was sheriff of Devon in 21 Edward III:
http://freepages.genealogy.rootsweb.com ... eriffs.htm

Presumably these references do relate to Edward III's daughter Joan, rather
than Edward II's daughter Joan, the Queen of Scotland. Should we conclude
that Joan was born at Woodstock, but was for some reason known as "Joan of
the Tower"?

Chris Phillips

Brad Verity

Re: Redux: Joanna, daughter of Edward III, birthplace Woodst

Legg inn av Brad Verity » 28 aug 2004 08:24:51

Sutliff wrote [quoting John Carmi Parsons]:

"Edward III's daughter Joanna was born at Woodstock. No room for question
there. Even though Lane's *Royal Daughters of England* (1911) is often out
of whack on the medieval royal ladies, he at least had the sense to rely
for
vital statistics on Mary Anne Everett Wood Green's *Lives of the
Princesses
of England from the Norman Conquest* which was published in 6 volumes in
the
1850s. Unlike Lane, Green was an experienced archivist--she edited several
volumes of State Papers for the Record Office--and enjoyed unhindered
access
to the records in what is now the Public Record Office.
[snip]


"Chris Phillips" <cgp@medievalgenealogy.org.uk> wrote in message news:

[snip]
Presumably these references do relate to Edward III's daughter Joan, rather
than Edward II's daughter Joan, the Queen of Scotland. Should we conclude
that Joan was born at Woodstock, but was for some reason known as "Joan of
the Tower"?

I was just having a look at Mary Anne Everett Green's "Lives of the
Princesses of England" in regards to Isabel, eldest daughter of Edward
III. Everett Green says twice, in a footnote in Isabel's bio which
lists the birthdates and birthplaces (as far as she could establish)
of all of Edward III's children, and in the full bio of Joan (Joanna)
herself, that Joan, second daughter of Edward III, was born in the
Tower of London.

Everett Green (p. 229): "The second daughter of Edward III. and
Philippa of Hainault, was born at the Tower of London, towards the
close of the year 1333. The date of her birth is not mentioned by
contemporary authorities, and therefore the exact day cannot be
ascertained; but her name occurs, for the first time, in the wardrobe
accounts, in the latter end of that year. [Footnote: Wardrobe Roll of
the Pipe, 18 Edw. II to 24 Edw. III., Queen's Rememb., sub anno 7 Edw.
III.]"

I'm not sure where the Woodstock-as-birthplace tradition started.
Maybe Henry Lane's 'Royal Daughters of England'?

Cheers, -------Brad

Svar

Gå tilbake til «soc.genealogy.medieval»