Nicholas de Kniveton

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Nicholas de Kniveton

Legg inn av Gjest » 14 feb 2008 08:24:03

Apologies for intruding mediaeval genealogy into this troll-fest.

According to the (unreferenced) pedigree in Burke's Extinct
Baronetage"

1. Nicholas de Kniveton of Mercaston, died 46 Edward III [1372-1373],
married Joan; left issue:

2a. Nicholas de Kniveton of Underwood

2b. Thomas de Kniveton of Mercaston, ff 14 Richard II [1390-1391] and
"died 25 Henry VI" [1446-1447]

Is it known whether either of these two Nicholases was the father of
Joan/Jane de Kniveton, wife of William Fitzherbert of Norbury, or is
she to be found in an earlier generation of the Kniveton family?

MA-R

Gjest

Re: Nicholas de Kniveton

Legg inn av Gjest » 14 feb 2008 08:39:02

On Feb 14, 6:22 pm, mj...@btinternet.com wrote:
Apologies for intruding mediaeval genealogy into this troll-fest.

According to the (unreferenced) pedigree in Burke's Extinct
Baronetage"

1. Nicholas de Kniveton of Mercaston, died 46 Edward III [1372-1373],
married Joan; left issue:

2a. Nicholas de Kniveton of Underwood

2b. Thomas de Kniveton of Mercaston, ff 14 Richard II [1390-1391] and
"died 25 Henry VI" [1446-1447]

Is it known whether either of these two Nicholases was the father of
Joan/Jane de Kniveton, wife of William Fitzherbert of Norbury, or is
she to be found in an earlier generation of the Kniveton family?

According to 'The Topographer', 1790, p 226, William Fitzherbert ff 22
Edward III [1348-1349] and 12 Richard II [1388-1389], and Joan was the
daughter of "Sir Nicholas de Kniveton of Mercaston, knight".

Cox's 'Notes on the Churches of Derbyshire', pp 369 & 580, provides
details of an Inquisition of 16 Richard II [1392-1393] which shows
that a chantry had been founded at Ashbourne by one Nicholas de
Kniveton, son of William de Kniveton.

MA-R

Gjest

Re: Nicholas de Kniveton

Legg inn av Gjest » 14 feb 2008 12:29:03

On Feb 14, 6:22 pm, mj...@btinternet.com wrote:

According to the (unreferenced) pedigree in Burke's Extinct Baronetage:

A. Nicholas de Kniveton of Mercaston, died 46 Edward III [1372-1373],
married Joan; left issue:

B1. Nicholas de Kniveton of Underwood

B2. Thomas de Kniveton of Mercaston, ff 14 Richard II [1390-1391] and
"died 25 Henry VI" [1446-1447]

A fuller pedigree is given in the Journal of the Royal Archaeological
Institute of Great Britain & Ireland, vol. XXXI (1874), p 380:

1. Matthew de Kniveton of Bradley, ff Edward I; left issue:

2a. Henry, of Bradley; left issue, of Bradley

2b. Matthew de Kniveton, married Matilda; left issue

3a. Thomas de Kniveton, ff 15 Edward II [1322]

3b. William de Kniveton, of Ashbourne, ff 15 Edward II and 7 Edward
III [1334]; married Margery. Issue:

4a. Nicholas de Kniveton, of Mercaston, died 1373; married Joan;
issue:

5a. Nicholas de Kniveton, of Underwood

5b. Thomas de Kniveton, of Mercaston, ff 1391; died 1447; married
Margaret Okeover nee Curzon, and left issue at Mercaston

4b. William de Kniveton

4c. Thomas de Kniveton

4d. Henry de Kniveton, Rector of Norbury, ff 1370

4e. John de Kniveton

4f. Robert de Kniveton, vicar of 'Darbrug' [Dovebridge], died 1392
[sic].

I shall shortly add some primary material in support of this pedigree.

MA-R

Gjest

Re: Nicholas de Kniveton

Legg inn av Gjest » 14 feb 2008 13:04:02

On Feb 14, 10:28 pm, mj...@btinternet.com wrote:
A fuller pedigree is given in the Journal of the Royal Archaeological
Institute of Great Britain & Ireland, vol. XXXI (1874), p 380:

1. Matthew de Kniveton of Bradley, ff Edward I;

"Pardon at the instance of Edward, the King's son, to Matthew de
Kniveton of the King's indignation and rancour of mind, conceived
towards him by occasion of the late disturbance in the realm, and the
King is unwilling that he be molested in his person, lands or
possessions on that account" (Calendar of Patent Rolls, 26 August
1266)

married Elizabeth, ff 1285-1305:

"Elizabeth the widow of Matthew de Knyveton sued the Abbot of Burton-
on-Trent for a third of a messuage and a carucate of land and 20 acres
of meadow in Ilum as her dower; the Abbot called to warranty John, son
of Robert de Okeover etc; writ dated 28 February 13 Edward I
[1285]" (Coll. Hist. Staffs, part 1, vol. vi, 1885, p 160)

left issue:

We can add a daughter Joan here, named together with her mother:

"Licence for John Danyel to give the lands etc in Tideswell, with the
mill at Wrmchill [sic; Wormhill] and the bailiwick of the forestership
of the Peal, which he holds in chief, to Richard his son and heir, and
to Joan the daughter of Matthew de Knyveton, whom the said Richard is
to marry, to hold likewise in chief" (Calendar of Patents Rolls,
Edward I, vol 2, 1281-1292, p 60, dated 1283)

"Commission of oyer and terminer to William de Bereford and John de
Anesleye, touching Elizabeth de Knyveton and Joan, wife of Richard
Danyel, indicated of the death of Margery the daughter of John le
Wolfhunte of Wormhull, Derbyshire" (Calendar of Patent Rolls, 6 March
1305)

2a. Henry, of Bradley; left issue, of Bradley

2b. Matthew de Kniveton, married Matilda; left issue

3a. Thomas de Kniveton, ff 15 Edward II [1322]

3b. William de Kniveton, of Ashbourne, ff 15 Edward II and 7 Edward
III [1334]; married Margery.  

"Licence for William, son of Matthew de Kniveton, to enfeoff John son
of John son of Maud de Fenneybentleye of a messuage, a toft, 6 acres
of meadow and a moiety of a bovate of land in Fenneybentleye, Co
Derby, which are held in chief" (Calendar of Patent Rolls, 20 May
1324)

circa 1351: "William de Kniveton, having confessed to a long course of
adultery, was to receive six floggings on six consecutive Sundays,
around Lichfield cathedral, and as many through the Market Place on
market-day; the Archdeacon of Stafford to administer one flogging
himself" (Lichfield Episcopal Registers, vol. iii, f 104, cited by Cox
in 'Derbyshire Churches', p 580)

(to be continued)

MA-R

Gjest

Re: Nicholas de Kniveton

Legg inn av Gjest » 14 feb 2008 23:59:03

On Feb 14, 10:28 pm, mj...@btinternet.com wrote:

In 1391-1392 three chantries were founded by the Kniveton family, two
at Ashbourne and one at Dovebridge. The documents that survive
relative to these foundations contain much genealogical information
about the family, and thus serve to confirm the published pedigree
[which doubtless used them as a source]:

3b. William de Kniveton, of Ashbourne, ff 15 Edward II and 7 Edward
III [1334]; married Margery.  Issue:

4a. Nicholas de Kniveton, of Mercaston, died 1373; married Joan;
left issue: Nicholas and Thomas

4b. William de Kniveton

4c. Thomas de Kniveton

4d. Henry de Kniveton, Rector of Norbury, ff 1370

4e. John de Kniveton

4f. Robert de Kniveton, vicar of 'Darbrug' [Dovebridge], died 1392 [sic].

The original object of the Kniveton chantry at Ashbourne was to pray
for the souls of Robert de Kniveton, vicar of Dovebridge; of William
de Kniveton, son of William de Kniveton of Bradley; of John, Dean of
Lincoln; of William de Kniveton, the founder's father, and Margaret
[sic] his mother; and Nicholas, William, Thomas and John, his brothers
(Lichfield Episcopal Registers, vol vi, f 92, dated c1391, cited by
Cox in his 'Derbyshire Churches', p 580)

"Licence for 40 marks paid to the King by Henry de Kniveton, parson of
Norbury, for the alienation in mortmain by him of a messuage, a shop,
two acres and a half of land and two acres of meadow in Ashbourne,
Ofcote and Norbury, Derbyshire, not held in chief, and 100 shillings
of rent issuing from tenements in Coventry, Warwickshire, held of the
King in burgage, to a chaplain to celebrate divine service daily at
the altar of St Mary in the church of Ashbourne for the good estate of
the said Henry, and for his soul after death, and the souls of his
parents; Nicholas de Kniveton his brother; John de Kniveton his
kinsman, and his other relatives, friends and benefactors and others,
and to do other works of piety according to his ordinance" (Calendar
of Patent Rolls, 20 June 1392)

"Licence for 14 pounds paid to the King by Robert de Kniveton, vicar
of Dovebridge, for the alienation in mortmain by him of eight
messuages, four bovates and ten acres of land and twelve acres of
meadow in Dovebridge, Eyton and Seddesale, and two messuages, 33 acres
of land and three acres of meadow in Uttoxhatre, not held in chief, to
a chaplain to celebrate divine service daily at the altar of St Mary
in the church of Dovebridge for the good estate of the said Robert,
for his soul after death, and for the souls of his parents; Nicholas
de Kniveton his brother; John de Kniveton his cousin, and his other
relatives, friends and benefactors" (Calendar of Patent Rolls, 2 July
1392)

"Licence for 20 pounds paid to the King by William de Hyde, chaplain,
for the alienation in mortmain by John Cokeyn, knight, John de
Knyveton, Roger de Bradburn and Richard Cokeyn, of 100 shillings rent
issuing from the manor of Mercaston, not held in chief, to a chaplain
to celebrate divine service daily at the altar of the Holy Cross in
the church of St Oswald at Ashbourne for the good estate of the said
William, Joan late the wife of Nicholas de Kniveton, Henry de Kniveton
and Robert de Kniveton, and for their souls after death, and the souls
of Nicholas de Kniveton; William de Kniveton and Margery his wife;
Thomas de Kniveton, their kindred, friends and benefactors, and
others" (Calendar of Patent Rolls, 8 August 1392)

This tells us that Joan, the widow of the elder Nicholas de Kniveton,
was still living in 1392. Of Nicholas's brothers, Henry and Robert
were still living, as probably was John (assuming he is to be
identified as the apparent feofee named in the third licence above),
but Thomas was dead (again, assuming he is to be identified as the
party for whose soul prayers were to be said, as detailed in the third
licence).

It is possible that the elder Nicholas and his brother Thomas are the
persons named in the following document:

"Pardon from Edward III to Thomas de Knyveton and Nicholas his brother
for their complicity in the death of William Spenser and acts of
outlawry, 19 June 1353 (Jeayes et al, 'Descriptive Catalogue of
Derbyshire Charters', p 188, #1515)

MA-R

Gjest

Re: Nicholas de Kniveton

Legg inn av Gjest » 15 feb 2008 01:49:03

On Feb 14, 10:28 pm, mj...@btinternet.com wrote:
A fuller pedigree is given in the Journal of the Royal Archaeological
Institute of Great Britain & Ireland, vol. XXXI (1874), p 380:

By special request, I am bringing this pedigree foward, as published:

1. Matthew de Kniveton, of Bradley; left issue:

2. Matthew de Kniveton, married Matilda; left issue

3. William de Kniveton, of Ashbourne; married Margery.  Issue:

4. Nicholas de Kniveton, of Mercaston, died 1373; married Joan; issue:

5. Thomas de Kniveton, of Mercaston, died 1447; married
Margaret Okeover nee Curzon and left issue:

6. Nicholas Kniveton, sheriff of Derbyshire in 1468 and 1490; married
Joan; left issue:

7. Nicholas Kniveton, sheriff of Derbyshire, 1494; esquire of the body
to King Henry VII; married Joan Mauleverer; issue:

8. John Kniveton, of Mercaston; married Joan Montgomery, daughter of
Sir Richard Montgomery of Cubley; left issue [the pedigree traces them
for several further generations].

MA-R

Gjest

Re: Nicholas de Kniveton

Legg inn av Gjest » 15 feb 2008 02:09:05

On Feb 14, 10:28 pm, mj...@btinternet.com wrote:

4f. Robert de Kniveton, vicar of 'Darbrug' [Dovebridge], died 1392 [sic].

This date appears to be incorrect. We have seen that Robert was still
living in July 1392, when he founded the Kniveton chantry at
Dovebridge.

We see from the following that he was still living at least as late as
1402:

"The King to Robert de Knyveton, Vicar of Doveridge [sic; recte
Dovebridge] (Doubrigge): lease, indented, for life, of the close of
pasture within the ward of Uttoxeter in the honour of Tutbury called
'Moreshevede': the lessee to preserve grazing sufficient for beasts of
the chase: (Staffs)"

PRO DL 25/3474, dated "4 Henry (?IV)" ie 1402-1403.

MA-R

Gjest

Re: Nicholas de Kniveton

Legg inn av Gjest » 15 feb 2008 02:29:06

On Feb 15, 12:04 pm, mj...@btinternet.com wrote:
On Feb 14, 10:28 pm, mj...@btinternet.com wrote:

4f. Robert de Kniveton, vicar of 'Darbrug' [Dovebridge], died 1392 [sic]..

This date appears to be incorrect.  We have seen that Robert was still
living in July 1392, when he founded the Kniveton chantry at
Dovebridge.

We see from the following that he was still living at least as late as
1402:

"The King to Robert de Knyveton, Vicar of Doveridge [sic; recte
Dovebridge] (Doubrigge)

A correction to my 'correction': the town in Derbyshire is now called
Doveridge, although the former spelling appears to have been
'Dovebridge'.

MA-R

Gjest

Re: Nicholas de Kniveton

Legg inn av Gjest » 15 feb 2008 02:49:04

On Feb 15, 9:58 am, mj...@btinternet.com wrote:
On Feb 14, 10:28 pm, mj...@btinternet.com wrote:

In 1391-1392 three chantries were founded by the Kniveton family, two
at Ashbourne and one at Dovebridge.  The documents that survive
relative to these foundations contain much genealogical information
about the family, and thus serve to confirm the published pedigree
[which doubtless used them as a source]:

3b. William de Kniveton, of Ashbourne, ff 15 Edward II and 7 Edward
III [1334]; married Margery.  Issue:

4a. Nicholas de Kniveton, of Mercaston, died 1373; married Joan;
left issue: Nicholas and Thomas

4b. William de Kniveton

4c. Thomas de Kniveton

4d. Henry de Kniveton, Rector of Norbury, ff 1370

The list of incumbents displayed in the church at Norbury contains
details of two clerks of this name:

a. Henry de Kniveton I, builder of the chancel, curate from c1340,
when the patron was Sir John Fitzherbert, the '6th Lord of Norbury';

b. Henry de Kniveton II, deacon, appointed in 1395 when William
Fitzherbert, the '8th Lord of Norbury' was patron.

It is this William Fitzherbert whose mother Joan is said to have been
a daughter of 'Sir Nicholas de Kniveton of Mercaston'. It seems
chronologically that this cannot have been the case (she may have been
the sister of Nicholas, died 1373).

MA-R

Gjest

Re: Nicholas de Kniveton

Legg inn av Gjest » 15 feb 2008 03:35:06

On Feb 15, 12:49 pm, mj...@btinternet.com wrote:

It is this William Fitzherbert whose mother Joan is said to have been
a daughter of 'Sir Nicholas de Kniveton of Mercaston'.  It seems
chronologically that this cannot have been the case (she may have been
the sister of Nicholas, died 1373).

Here are the comparative pedigrees that highlight the apparent
chronological problems:

A. Kniveton

1. William de Kniveton, active by 1324; married by c1350
2. Nicholas de Kniveton, eldest son; (his younger brother was parson
at Norbury, c1340-1392); he died 1373
3. Thomas Kniveton, younger son; died 1447
4. Nicholas Kniveton, sheriff of Derbyshire 1468 & 1490
5. Nicholas Kniveton, sheriff of Derbyshire 1494

B. Fitzherbert

1. Sir Henry Fitzherbert, died c1315
2. Sir John Fitzherbert, lord of Norbury 1349
3. William Fitzherbert, said to have married the daughter of Nicholas
de Kniveton
4. William Fitzherbert, lord of Norbury 1395
5. Henry Fitzherbert (father of Nicholas Fitzherbert, died 1473)

It strikes me as unlikely that William Fitzherbert (at 3) was lord of
Norbury in 1395, and his first cousin Nicholas Kniveton was serving as
sheriff of Derbyshire in 1490 - 95 years later.

MA-R

Gjest

Re: Nicholas de Kniveton

Legg inn av Gjest » 15 feb 2008 05:17:04

On Feb 14, 11:00 pm, mj...@btinternet.com wrote:
A fuller pedigree is given in the Journal of the Royal Archaeological
Institute of Great Britain & Ireland, vol. XXXI (1874), p 380:

1. Matthew de Kniveton of Bradley, ff Edward I;

"Pardon at the instance of Edward, the King's son, to Matthew de
Kniveton of the King's indignation and rancour of mind, conceived
towards him by occasion of the late disturbance in the realm, and the
King is unwilling that he be molested in his person, lands or
possessions on that account" (Calendar of Patent Rolls, 26 August
1266)

married Elizabeth, ff 1285-1305:

"Elizabeth the widow of Matthew de Knyveton sued the Abbot of Burton-
on-Trent for a third of a messuage and a carucate of land and 20 acres
of meadow in Ilum as her dower; the Abbot called to warranty John, son
of Robert de Okeover etc; writ dated 28 February 13 Edward I
[1285]" (Coll. Hist. Staffs, part 1, vol. vi, 1885, p 160)

left issue

We can also state that Elizabeth seems to have been Matthew's second
wife, since in the following document of 1288, his son and heir Henry
refers to her as his stepmother:

"Grant by Henry, son of Mathew de Knyveton, to Henry, son of Henry de
Hopton, of his meadow at Hokenaston with the third part of the same
which Elizabeth, his stepmother, holds, subject to a rent of 5s a
year"

(Gell papers, Derbyshire Record Office, D 258/26/7/10, dated 1288)

MA-R

letiTiAflufF@gmail.com

Re: Nicholas de Kniveton

Legg inn av letiTiAflufF@gmail.com » 15 feb 2008 06:36:56

On Feb 14, 10:15 pm, wjhonson <wjhon...@aol.com> wrote:
Since we know that, at Mercaston there were two generations of
Nicholas Kniveton in a row, possibly the simply solution is to make
the sheriff in 1490 be "Jr" instead of "Sr"

or you can make him Wile E Coyote instead of "Sr"
according to the Kent archives, it was Road Runner
my roomie Wile in Wifi across the office think you are "Jr"
and MA-R is your alter ego, no? O you guy make it up as you go
with pick up line MissKnowITAll knows by heart, have anotha brew,
laddies

~Bret, scion of Charle de Magne

http://Back-stabbing Ancestral Descendants ASSoc.genealogy.medieval

Gjest

Re: Nicholas de Kniveton

Legg inn av Gjest » 15 feb 2008 13:09:02

On Feb 15, 2:24 pm, mj...@btinternet.com wrote:
1. Matthew de Kniveton of Bradley, ff Edward I;

married Elizabeth, ff 1285-1305:

"Elizabeth the widow of Matthew de Knyveton sued the Abbot of Burton-
on-Trent for a third of a messuage and a carucate of land and 20 acres
of meadow in Ilum as her dower; the Abbot called to warranty John, son
of Robert de Okeover etc; writ dated 28 February 13 Edward I
[1285]" (Coll. Hist. Staffs, part 1, vol. vi, 1885, p 160)

and left issue

We can also state that Elizabeth seems to have been Matthew's second
wife, since in the following document of 1288, his son and heir Henry
refers to her as his stepmother:

Matthew's first wife was the daughter of Roger de Stretton (Derbyshire
Archaeological Journal, 1970, p 18)

MA-R

Gjest

Re: Nicholas de Kniveton

Legg inn av Gjest » 16 feb 2008 05:15:05

On Feb 15, 2:25 pm, mj...@btinternet.com wrote:
On Feb 15, 2:15 pm, wjhonson <wjhon...@aol.com> wrote:

On Feb 14, 6:33 pm, mj...@btinternet.com wrote:

It strikes me as unlikely that William Fitzherbert (at 3) was lord of
Norbury in 1395, and his first cousin Nicholas Kniveton was serving as
sheriff of Derbyshire in 1490 - 95 years later.

MA-R

Since we know that, at Mercaston there were two generations of
Nicholas Kniveton in a row, possibly the simply solution is to make
the sheriff in 1490 be "Jr" instead of "Sr"

Will Johnson

A death date for one of these Nicholases would be useful!  I can't see
any probate records on PCC...

OK, here is something that might narrow things down a trifle:

"Debtor: Thomas Twyford, formerly of Kirk Langley in Derbys, esquire
Creditor: Nicholas Knyfton, esquire to the King, now deceased; his
administrators were his wife, Alice, and her new husband Roger Mynours
Amount: £20
Before whom: John Brown, Mayor of the Staple of Westminster"

Dated 19 October 1505

(PRO C 131/253/1)

MA-R

Gjest

Re: Nicholas de Kniveton

Legg inn av Gjest » 16 feb 2008 05:16:02

On Feb 16, 2:39 pm, mj...@btinternet.com wrote:
"Debtor: Thomas Twyford, formerly of Kirk Langley in Derbys, esquire
Creditor: Nicholas Knyfton, esquire to the King, now deceased; his
administrators were his wife, Alice, and her new husband Roger Mynours
Amount: £20
Before whom: John Brown, Mayor of the Staple of Westminster"

Dated 19 October 1505

(PRO C 131/253/1)


NB The printed pedigree states that the wife of Nicholas Kniveton,
esquire of the body to Henry VII, was "John Mauleverer", whereas this
records that he left a widow Alice, afterwards married to Roger
Mynours.

MA-R

Gjest

Re: Nicholas de Kniveton

Legg inn av Gjest » 16 feb 2008 05:19:02

On Feb 16, 2:39 pm, mj...@btinternet.com wrote:
On Feb 15, 2:25 pm, mj...@btinternet.com wrote:





On Feb 15, 2:15 pm, wjhonson <wjhon...@aol.com> wrote:

On Feb 14, 6:33 pm, mj...@btinternet.com wrote:

It strikes me as unlikely that William Fitzherbert (at 3) was lord of
Norbury in 1395, and his first cousin Nicholas Kniveton was serving as
sheriff of Derbyshire in 1490 - 95 years later.

MA-R

Since we know that, at Mercaston there were two generations of
Nicholas Kniveton in a row, possibly the simply solution is to make
the sheriff in 1490 be "Jr" instead of "Sr"

Will Johnson

A death date for one of these Nicholases would be useful!  I can't see
any probate records on PCC...

OK, here is something that might narrow things down a trifle:

"Debtor: Thomas Twyford, formerly of Kirk Langley in Derbys, esquire
Creditor: Nicholas Knyfton, esquire to the King, now deceased; his
administrators were his wife, Alice, and her new husband Roger Mynours
Amount: £20
Before whom: John Brown, Mayor of the Staple of Westminster"

Dated 19 October 1505 (PRO C 131/253/1)

And there is an apparent IPM dated 17 Henry VII [1501-1502] for
'Nicholas Knyfton of Staffordshire" (PRO E 150/1017) which might shave
a couple of years off the death date.

MA-R

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