Sir Edmund Pagenham

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wjhonson

Sir Edmund Pagenham

Legg inn av wjhonson » 05 feb 2008 03:59:03

Here on Leo's excellent web site
http://www.genealogics.org/getperson.ph ... 3&tree=LEO

we see Edmund Packenham, father of that Constance Packenham
who by virtue of her marriage to Sir Geoffrey Pole or Poole
ended up the ancestors of a mess of people
who either Leo hasn't traced forward, or who all died out
before the 6th descent

See here
http://www.genealogics.org/descend.php? ... 2&tree=LEO

I have a few random mouse droppings to add to this:

Edmund was "Sir"
and Constance was "co-heiress"

Also here on Leo's excellent site
http://www.genealogics.org/getperson.ph ... 3&tree=LEO
we see Constance and Geoffrey's eldest son Arthur
who married Anne Holland

Leo does not there give, but it is known that Arthur was yet living in
1560/1

Here is a document revealing several things below
Will Johnson

Reference: JER/WA/18/1
Agreement prior to recovery. Moiety of MANORS OF GATCOMBE and WHITWELL
Creation dates: 1560/1 January 24
Extent and Form: 3 copies
Scope and Content
(1) Dame Constance Poole, widow, late wife of Sir Gefferey Poole,
daughter and co-heir of late Sir Edmonde Pagenham Arthur Poole, her
eldest son
(2) (a) John Tawke of Gatcombe
Thomas Tawke of Rowkeley
(b) William Porter of Newporte, gent
(c) David Urrey of Thorley
(d) William Deacon of Newchurch
(e) Richard Newland of Shank[lin]
(f) William Harvye, son of Margaret Harvye of Whitcombe, p.
Caresbrooke
(g) James Gryme of p. Caresbrooke
(h) Richard Newnam of Northford, p. Godshill
(i) Nicholas Coleman of Wathe
(j) Richard Newnam of Southford
(k) Richard Ailesbury of p. Godshill
(l) John Bradinge of p. Godshill
Division amongst purchasers as follows:
(a) Cap. messuage in p. Gatcombe. 1/2 advowson of Gatcombe Church.
Moiety of messuages occ. John Tawke, John More, Johan Nutt, widow,
John Erlisman, gent., and William Newinge. Moiety of five messuages in
p's Gatcombe and Caresbrooke occ. Alice Goter, widow, Robert Holloway,
Nicholas Whysset, Nicholas Harvie, John Harvie of Parsonage and John
Slader
(b) Moiety of messuages p's. Gatcombe and Caresbrooke occ. John Payne
of Wytcombe, William Harvie of Lake, Margery Newyng, widow, Alyce
Boyes, widow, John Bowyn, John Doverman
(c) Moiety of messuages occ. John Willarre, John Gilbert, John Maister
(d) Moiety of 2 messuages, p's. Newchurch and St. Hellens, occ.
William Deacon and George Paye of Duxmore
(e) Moiety of 1 messuage p's. Gatcombe and Caresbrooke, occ. Alice
Wade, widow
(f) Moiety of messuage at Wytcombe, p's. Gatcombe and Caresbrooke,
occ. Margaret Harvie, wid.
(g) Moiety of messuage at Witcombe p's. Gatcombe and Caresbrooke occ.
John Harvie
(h) Moiety of cap. messuage in Whitwell, occ. Robert Hales, Richard
Newnam of Northforde, Richard Edes, Johan Joylif, widow, Dorothie
Holebroke, wid., William Jacobbe, Richard Newman, clerk, Agnes Allen,
widow, Andrew Spanner, William Tippe, Thomas Serrell, John Serle of
Stockbridge, William Orchard, Alice Chidlee, widow, John Aylesbury,
Ellen [blank] widow, William Gain, Thomas Jacobbe the elder, Thomas
Jacobbe the younger. Moiety of Whitwell Church House.
(i) Moiety of three messuages in Whitwell and Wathe, p. Godshill, occ.
Nicholas Coleman, Gilbert Harding, John Prowte
(j) Moiety of 2 messuages and one water mill in Whitwell and Gatcombe,
occ. Richard Newnam of Southford and Alice Harvie, widow
(k) Moiety of messuage at Whitwell, occ. Richard Ailesbury
(l) Moiety of messuage occ. John Bradinge and Alice Slader

Gjest

Re: Sir Edmund Pagenham

Legg inn av Gjest » 06 feb 2008 10:54:02

On Feb 5, 1:58 pm, wjhonson <wjhon...@aol.com> wrote:

Here on Leo's excellent web sitehttp://www.genealogics.org/getperso ... 3&tree=LEO

we see Edmund Packenham, father of that Constance Packenham
who by virtue of her marriage to Sir Geoffrey Pole or Poole
ended up the ancestors of a mess of  people
who either Leo hasn't traced forward, or who all died out
before the 6th descent

Another couple of bits and pieces:

West Sussex Record Office:

Add MS 4256

"Probate of the Will of Sir Edmund Pakenham of Lordington in the
parish of Racketon/Racton, dated 25 August 1528"

According to VCH Berks vol 3 sub Finchampstead, Sir Edmund left two
daughters and coheirs: Constance (Pole) and Elizabeth, wife of Edmund
Marvyn.

VCH states that Sir Edmund's parents were John and Margaret Pakenham;
they both died 1 October 1485. According to their IPM, Edmund was
then aged 5 (ie born circa 1480).

MA-R

Gjest

Re: Sir Edmund Pagenham

Legg inn av Gjest » 06 feb 2008 12:44:02

On Feb 5, 1:58 pm, wjhonson <wjhon...@aol.com> wrote:
Here on Leo's excellent web sitehttp://www.genealogics.org/getperso ... 3&tree=LEO

we see Edmund Packenham, father of that Constance Packenham
who by virtue of her marriage to Sir Geoffrey Pole or Poole
ended up the ancestors of a mess of  people
who either Leo hasn't traced forward, or who all died out
before the 6th descent

It seems that descendants can be traced to at least 1930, according to
Ruvigny's 'Plantagenet Roll' (Clarence volume), p 535, n1, citing
"information from H. Murray Lane, Chester Herald", viz:

1. Geoffrey Pole married Constance Pakenham
2. Geoffrey Pole
3. Thomas Pole married Anne Neville
4. Ralph Pole married Catherine Pole (daughter of Geoffrey Pole,
younger son of #2)
5. James Pole, born 1603, married Catherine Pershall
6. Thomas Pole, married Mary Burnett
7. John Pole, married Martha Anderton
8. James Pole, married Lucy Ralph
9. Catherine Pole, married Philip Darell
10. Catherine Darell, married Baldwin Duppa (died 1840)
11. Baldwin Duppa, died 1874
12. Catherine Duppa, married 1899 Maj. Osborne A. Chambers, Royal
Warwickshire Regiment; of The Manor, Sandgate (The Times, 8 January
1930, p 15)
13a. Frances Catherine Chambers, married 7 January 1930 Charles
William Gore, Air Commodore RAF (The Times, 8 January 1951, p 2)
13b. Barbara Chambers
13c. Eleanor Chambers

MA-R

Gjest

Re: Sir Edmund Pagenham

Legg inn av Gjest » 06 feb 2008 13:56:03

On Feb 6, 10:43 pm, mj...@btinternet.com wrote:
On Feb 5, 1:58 pm, wjhonson <wjhon...@aol.com> wrote:

Here on Leo's excellent web sitehttp://www.genealogics.org/getperso ... 3&tree=LEO

we see Edmund Packenham, father of that Constance Packenham
who by virtue of her marriage to Sir Geoffrey Pole or Poole
ended up the ancestors of a mess of  people
who either Leo hasn't traced forward, or who all died out
before the 6th descent

It seems that descendants can be traced to at least 1930, according to
Ruvigny's 'Plantagenet Roll' (Clarence volume), p 535, n1, citing
"information from H. Murray Lane, Chester Herald", viz:

1. Geoffrey Pole married Constance Pakenham
2. Geoffrey Pole
3. Thomas Pole married Anne Neville
4. Ralph Pole married Catherine Pole (daughter of Geoffrey Pole,
younger son of #2)
5. James Pole, born 1603, married Catherine Pershall
6. Thomas Pole, married Mary Burnett
7. John Pole, married Martha Anderton
8. James Pole, married Lucy Ralph
9. Catherine Pole, married Philip Darell
10. Catherine Darell, married Baldwin Duppa (died 1840)
11. Baldwin Duppa, died 1874
12. Catherine Duppa, married 1899 Maj. Osborne A. Chambers, Royal
Warwickshire Regiment; of The Manor, Sandgate (The Times, 8 January
1930, p 15)
13a. Frances Catherine Chambers, married 7 January 1930 Charles
William Gore, Air Commodore RAF (The Times, 8 January 1951, p 2)
13b. Barbara Chambers
13c. Eleanor Chambers


Leo has pointed out the doubts about this line (Ruvigny/Chester Herald
says "Thomas Pole is said to have married...) - I meant to add that I
don't endorse it - the earlier generations (3 in particular) may be
unreliable.

MA-R

R C

RE: Sir Edmund Pagenham (also Pakeham, Pole, Dudley, Bramsho

Legg inn av R C » 08 feb 2008 00:37:19

W. Johnson: Here on Leo's excellent web
sitehttp://www.genealogics.org/getperso ... 3&tree=LEO

we see Edmund Packenham, father of that Constance Packenham
who by virtue of her marriage to Sir Geoffrey Pole or Poole
ended up the ancestors of a mess of  people
who either Leo hasn't traced forward, or who all died out
before the 6th descent

Another couple of bits and pieces:
West Sussex Record Office:
Add MS 4256

"Probate of the Will of Sir Edmund Pakenham of Lordington in the
parish of Racketon/Racton, dated 25 August 1528"

According to VCH Berks vol 3 sub Finchampstead, Sir Edmund left two
daughters and coheirs: Constance (Pole) and Elizabeth, wife of Edmund
Marvyn.

VCH states that Sir Edmund's parents were John and Margaret Pakenham;
they both died 1 October 1485. According to their IPM, Edmund was
then aged 5 (ie born circa 1480).

MA-R

Further bits and pieces:

Letters Archaeological and Historical Relating to the Isle of Wight, Edward
Boucher James, 1896, p. 514

"Dudley's moiety of Gatcombe was purchased by Richard Worsley, Captain of
the Island. John Pakenham, left Edward [Edmund] Pakenham his son and heir,
whose estate was inherited by two daughters. One of those daughters married
Richard EARNLEY in the county of Sussex, and the other married Sir Geoffrey
Pole, brother to Cardinal Pole.

VCH, Sussex, v. 5, sub Gatcombe, pp. 246-249 (1912)

John Bramshott of Bramshott and Titden, Hants. d. 1468 (IPM)
|__________________________________________________
| |
Margaret Bramshott d. 1 Oct. 1485, plague NN Bramshott
= =
John Pakenham, d. same date & cause John Dudley
| |
Edmund Pakenham, d. 1528 (see BP, Longford) Dudley, Henry VIII's minister
|__________________________ |
| | |
Constance Pakenham dau Pakenham* Duke of Northumberland, ex. 1553
= =
Sir Geoffrey Pole Richard Ernley
|
Arthur Pole, b. 1531

VCH

Elizabeth wife of Dudley (d. 1501) d. 1498
|
Edmund Dudley, notorious sub Henry VIII, attainted 1510
=
Elizabeth Grey, dau. of Edward Grey, Viscount Lisle, fl. March 1538 [sic]
|
John Dudley, eldest son, sold reversion of half manor of Gatcombe to Sir
John ERNLEY, Chief Justice of the Common Pleas [grandfather of Richard ERNLE
who married a PAKENHAM heiress]


Sir John ERNLEY, Chief Justice of the Common Pleas (1519-1520), d. 1520
=
Margaret DAWTREY
|
William ERNLEY, made a settlement of his moiety of the manor (1538), d.
1546, seised of the same
|______________________________
| |
Francis ERNLE Richard ERNLEY**
son and heir, minor 1546 sold his 1/2 of manor to John Worsley, ca 1576
d.s.p.

*=was she Elizabeth PAKENHAM, sometime married to Edmund MARVYN?
**=This is supposedly the man who married the other Pakenham heiress, though
the chronology looks off or very tight to me.



Oxford DNB sub Sir John ERNLEY
Sir John ERNLEY, Lord Chief Justice, b.ca 1464/5 d. 1520 was the younger
brother of John ERNLE, The Elder, Esq., of Fosbury and Bishop's Cannings,
Wilts. (b. ca 1461/2, from IPM). They were sons of John ERNLE, Esq., of
Sidlesham, Sussex, (d. 1465) by his wife Margaret, daughter of Nicholas
MORLEY, suo jure of Glynde Place, Sussex, by his wife Joan, dau. and coheir
of John WALLEYS, Esq., of Glynde Place, Sussex.


Richard Carruthers
conducting a one-name study of ERNLE and variants
(Descendant of John ERNLE, The Elder, of Fosbury & Bishops Cannings, Wilts.)








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wjhonson

Re: Sir Edmund Pagenham (also Pakeham, Pole, Dudley, Bramsho

Legg inn av wjhonson » 08 feb 2008 00:52:02

We are informed by my earlier that Arthur was alive in 1561 and named
as her "eldest son" by his mother.

We are however informed, that it her son Geoffrey who inherited the
Manor of Lordington.

Scouting about for *why* I happened to notice that Arthur Pole and his
brother Edmund "being ardent young men" happened to get themselves all
caught up in the whole "Mary Queen of Scots" fiasco, being named among
those trying to put her on the Throne of England as against Queen
Bess.

For this Arthur and Edmond who taken in 1562 and shut up the Tower of
London where they both died about 8 years later. So we can know that
they were at least reasonable old-enough to be plotting treason by
1562.

Now comes a source to tell us *exactly* how old was Edmond.

http://books.google.com/books?id=geouAA ... =&as_brr=1
living 1568, in his 27th year


Will Johnson

R C

RE: Sir Edmund Pagenham (also Pakenham, Pole, Dudley, Bramsh

Legg inn av R C » 08 feb 2008 21:59:01

Oops, I meant Pakenham rather than Pakeham.
-----Original Message-----
From: gen-medieval-bounces@rootsweb.com
[mailto:gen-medieval-bounces@rootsweb.com] On Behalf Of R C
Sent: 7-Feb-08 3:37 PM
To: mjcar@btinternet.com; gen-medieval@rootsweb.com
Subject: RE: Sir Edmund Pagenham (also Pakeham, Pole, Dudley, Bramshott,
Marvyn,ERNLE (Earnley, Ernley), and Worsley)



W. Johnson: Here on Leo's excellent web
sitehttp://www.genealogics.org/getperso ... 3&tree=LEO

we see Edmund Packenham, father of that Constance Packenham
who by virtue of her marriage to Sir Geoffrey Pole or Poole
ended up the ancestors of a mess of  people
who either Leo hasn't traced forward, or who all died out
before the 6th descent

Another couple of bits and pieces:
West Sussex Record Office:
Add MS 4256

"Probate of the Will of Sir Edmund Pakenham of Lordington in the
parish of Racketon/Racton, dated 25 August 1528"

According to VCH Berks vol 3 sub Finchampstead, Sir Edmund left two
daughters and coheirs: Constance (Pole) and Elizabeth, wife of Edmund
Marvyn.

VCH states that Sir Edmund's parents were John and Margaret Pakenham;
they both died 1 October 1485. According to their IPM, Edmund was
then aged 5 (ie born circa 1480).

MA-R

Further bits and pieces:

Letters Archaeological and Historical Relating to the Isle of Wight, Edward
Boucher James, 1896, p. 514

"Dudley's moiety of Gatcombe was purchased by Richard Worsley, Captain of
the Island. John Pakenham, left Edward [Edmund] Pakenham his son and heir,
whose estate was inherited by two daughters. One of those daughters married
Richard EARNLEY in the county of Sussex, and the other married Sir Geoffrey
Pole, brother to Cardinal Pole.

VCH, Sussex, v. 5, sub Gatcombe, pp. 246-249 (1912)

John Bramshott of Bramshott and Titden, Hants. d. 1468 (IPM)
|__________________________________________________
| |
Margaret Bramshott d. 1 Oct. 1485, plague NN Bramshott
= =
John Pakenham, d. same date & cause John Dudley
| |
Edmund Pakenham, d. 1528 (see BP, Longford) Dudley, Henry VIII's minister
|__________________________ |
| | |
Constance Pakenham dau Pakenham* Duke of Northumberland, ex. 1553
= =
Sir Geoffrey Pole Richard Ernley
|
Arthur Pole, b. 1531

VCH

Elizabeth wife of Dudley (d. 1501) d. 1498
|
Edmund Dudley, notorious sub Henry VIII, attainted 1510
=
Elizabeth Grey, dau. of Edward Grey, Viscount Lisle, fl. March 1538 [sic]
|
John Dudley, eldest son, sold reversion of half manor of Gatcombe to Sir
John ERNLEY, Chief Justice of the Common Pleas [grandfather of Richard ERNLE
who married a PAKENHAM heiress]


Sir John ERNLEY, Chief Justice of the Common Pleas (1519-1520), d. 1520
=
Margaret DAWTREY
|
William ERNLEY, made a settlement of his moiety of the manor (1538), d.
1546, seised of the same
|______________________________
| |
Francis ERNLE Richard ERNLEY**
son and heir, minor 1546 sold his 1/2 of manor to John Worsley, ca 1576
d.s.p.

*=was she Elizabeth PAKENHAM, sometime married to Edmund MARVYN?
**=This is supposedly the man who married the other Pakenham heiress, though
the chronology looks off or very tight to me.



Oxford DNB sub Sir John ERNLEY
Sir John ERNLEY, Lord Chief Justice, b.ca 1464/5 d. 1520 was the younger
brother of John ERNLE, The Elder, Esq., of Fosbury and Bishop's Cannings,
Wilts. (b. ca 1461/2, from IPM). They were sons of John ERNLE, Esq., of
Sidlesham, Sussex, (d. 1465) by his wife Margaret, daughter of Nicholas
MORLEY, suo jure of Glynde Place, Sussex, by his wife Joan, dau. and coheir
of John WALLEYS, Esq., of Glynde Place, Sussex.


Richard Carruthers
conducting a one-name study of ERNLE and variants
(Descendant of John ERNLE, The Elder, of Fosbury & Bishops Cannings, Wilts.)








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AdrianBnjmBurke

Re: Sir Edmund Pagenham (also Pakeham, Pole, Dudley, Bramsho

Legg inn av AdrianBnjmBurke » 08 feb 2008 22:44:03

On Feb 7, 6:37 pm, "R C" <leliw...@hotmail.com> wrote:
W. Johnson: Here on Leo's excellent web

sitehttp://www.genealogics.org/getperso ... 3&tree=LEO







we see Edmund Packenham, father of that Constance Packenham
who by virtue of her marriage to Sir Geoffrey Pole or Poole
ended up the ancestors of a mess of  people
who either Leo hasn't traced forward, or who all died out
before the 6th descent
Another couple of bits and pieces:
West Sussex Record Office:
Add MS 4256
"Probate of the Will of Sir Edmund Pakenham of Lordington in the
parish of Racketon/Racton, dated 25 August 1528"
According to VCH Berks vol 3 sub Finchampstead, Sir Edmund left two
daughters and coheirs: Constance (Pole) and Elizabeth, wife of Edmund
Marvyn.
VCH states that Sir Edmund's parents were John and Margaret Pakenham;
they both died 1 October 1485.  According to their IPM, Edmund was
then aged 5 (ie born circa 1480).
MA-R

Further bits and pieces:

Letters Archaeological and Historical Relating to the Isle of Wight, Edward
Boucher James, 1896, p. 514

"Dudley's moiety of Gatcombe was purchased by Richard Worsley, Captain of
the Island. John Pakenham, left Edward [Edmund] Pakenham his son and heir,
whose estate was inherited by two daughters. One of those daughters married
Richard EARNLEY in the county of Sussex, and the other married Sir Geoffrey
Pole, brother to Cardinal Pole.

VCH, Sussex, v. 5, sub Gatcombe, pp. 246-249 (1912)

John Bramshott of Bramshott and Titden, Hants. d. 1468 (IPM)
|__________________________________________________
|                                                                  |
Margaret Bramshott d. 1 Oct. 1485, plague     NN Bramshott
=                                                               > John Pakenham, d. same date & cause           John Dudley
|                                                               |
Edmund Pakenham, d. 1528 (see BP, Longford)   Dudley, Henry VIII's minister
|__________________________                     |
|                          |                    |
Constance Pakenham      dau Pakenham*     Duke of Northumberland, ex. 1553
=                              > Sir Geoffrey Pole       Richard Ernley
|
Arthur Pole, b. 1531

VCH

Elizabeth wife of Dudley (d. 1501) d. 1498
|
Edmund Dudley, notorious sub Henry VIII, attainted 1510
Elizabeth Grey, dau. of Edward Grey, Viscount Lisle, fl. March 1538 [sic]
|
John Dudley, eldest son, sold reversion of half manor of Gatcombe to Sir
John ERNLEY, Chief Justice of the Common Pleas [grandfather of Richard ERNLE
who married a PAKENHAM heiress]

Sir John ERNLEY, Chief Justice of the Common Pleas (1519-1520), d. 1520
Margaret DAWTREY
|
William ERNLEY, made a settlement of his moiety of the manor (1538), d.
1546, seised of the same
|______________________________
|                              |
Francis ERNLE                Richard ERNLEY**
son and heir, minor 1546   sold his 1/2 of manor to John Worsley, ca 1576
d.s.p.

*=was she Elizabeth PAKENHAM, sometime married to Edmund MARVYN?
**=This is supposedly the man who married the other Pakenham heiress, though
the chronology looks off or very tight to me.

Oxford DNB sub Sir John ERNLEY
Sir John ERNLEY, Lord Chief Justice, b.ca 1464/5 d. 1520 was the younger
brother of John ERNLE, The Elder, Esq., of Fosbury and Bishop's Cannings,
Wilts. (b. ca 1461/2, from IPM). They were sons of John ERNLE, Esq., of
Sidlesham, Sussex, (d. 1465) by his wife Margaret, daughter of Nicholas
MORLEY, suo jure of Glynde Place, Sussex, by his wife Joan, dau. and coheir
of John WALLEYS, Esq., of Glynde Place, Sussex.

Richard Carruthers
conducting a one-name study of ERNLE and variants
(Descendant of John ERNLE, The Elder, of Fosbury & Bishops Cannings, Wilts..)

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- Show quoted text -

I have been trying to find out more about Robert Ernle's ancestry he
was a servant to Queen Catherine of Braganza and Westminster. This is
all I have for him although the Queen's will was filed with the PCC i
have not ordered it.

Mary Chaundler, daughter of Richard and Mary (Palmer) Chaundler, was
born say 1675, and died 1711.

She married firstly, John Young, of Exton, later merchant of Idmiston,
Wiltshire, born 1648, died 1692. He was the son of John Young and
Honor Uvedale, daughter of Sir Richard Uvedale of Wickham, Hants.

She married secondly, 9 Feb 1697, Carew Raleigh, second but only
surviving son of Sir Charles Raleigh (son of Gibert Raleigh and
Elizabeth Goddard) and Frances Ernle, daughter of Robert Ernle,
Servant to Queen Catherine of Braganza, of Whitehall, of Westminster
etc. He was born after 1675, and died 1709.

Svar

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