Dating of Cluny charters

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Stewart Baldwin

Dating of Cluny charters

Legg inn av Stewart Baldwin » 27 jan 2008 00:05:08

The recent comments about the dating of a couple of charters in the Aubry of
Mâcon thread lead me to ask about the dating of the Cluny charters in
general. It appears that in all charters dated by regnal years of Lothair,
the editors used an accession date of 12 November 954 for all charters in
which the date thus obtained could not be shown false by other evidence.
However, there are 44 Cluny charters which are dated in years from the 33rd
to the 40th year of Lothaire (placing them after his death if dated from
954). These charters are dated by the editors with a starting point of 946.
[See Alexandre Bruel, "Études sur la chronologie des rois de France et de
Bourgogne d'après les diplomes et les chartes de l'abbaye de Cluny"]

I have a problem with the logic behind the editors' convention in thus
assigning dates to these charters. If the 44 charters with a regnal date of
33 or higher are to be regarded as genuine and not corrupt, then it would
mean that some other starting point was being used in some circles for
dating charters during Lothair's reign. In that case an assumed starting
point of 946 (the latest date not inconsistent with Lothair's date of death)
seems a bit arbitrary to me. Also, assuming that such an alternate dating
system was being used, it seems to me that we have no way of knowing whether
or not various charters with a regnal year of 32 or lower were dated to one
system or the other. Thus, could there not be a large number of Cluny
charters, both above and below 32 regnal years, for which the assigned dates
of the editors are innacurate? I have seen this addressed (on a very small
scale, and not very convincingly) for three specific charters by Chizelle
(1986) and Settipani (1994) in their discussions of the death date of count
Lambert of Chalon. Does anybody known whether or not this been discussed in
the literature in a more systematic way?

Stewart Baldwin

Nathaniel Taylor

Re: Dating of Cluny charters

Legg inn av Nathaniel Taylor » 27 jan 2008 01:08:37

In article <13pnf3m1brq1s7d@corp.supernews.com>,
"Stewart Baldwin" <sbaldw@mindspring.com> wrote:

The recent comments about the dating of a couple of charters in the Aubry of
Mâcon thread lead me to ask about the dating of the Cluny charters in
general. It appears that in all charters dated by regnal years of Lothair,
the editors used an accession date of 12 November 954 for all charters in
which the date thus obtained could not be shown false by other evidence.
However, there are 44 Cluny charters which are dated in years from the 33rd
to the 40th year of Lothaire (placing them after his death if dated from
954). These charters are dated by the editors with a starting point of 946.
[See Alexandre Bruel, "Études sur la chronologie des rois de France et de
Bourgogne d'après les diplomes et les chartes de l'abbaye de Cluny"]

I have a problem with the logic behind the editors' convention in thus
assigning dates to these charters. If the 44 charters with a regnal date of
33 or higher are to be regarded as genuine and not corrupt, then it would
mean that some other starting point was being used in some circles for
dating charters during Lothair's reign. In that case an assumed starting
point of 946 (the latest date not inconsistent with Lothair's date of death)
seems a bit arbitrary to me. Also, assuming that such an alternate dating
system was being used, it seems to me that we have no way of knowing whether
or not various charters with a regnal year of 32 or lower were dated to one
system or the other. Thus, could there not be a large number of Cluny
charters, both above and below 32 regnal years, for which the assigned dates
of the editors are innacurate? I have seen this addressed (on a very small
scale, and not very convincingly) for three specific charters by Chizelle
(1986) and Settipani (1994) in their discussions of the death date of count
Lambert of Chalon. Does anybody known whether or not this been discussed in
the literature in a more systematic way?

This is turning some very corroded wheels for me. Surely it is
discussed at length in Maurice Chaume's series of articles,
"Observations sur la chronologie des chartes de l'abbaye de Cluny,"
_Revue Mabillon_ 16 (1926):44-48; 29 (1939):81-89; 29 (1939):133-42; 31
(1941):14-19, 42-45, 69-82; 32 (1942):15-20, 133-36; 38 (1948):1-6; 39
(1949):41-43; 42 (1952):1-4. I expect that this has been satisfactorily
explained either by Chaume or since, but I don't know what the
explanation is.

Nat Taylor
http://www.nltaylor.net

Peter Stewart

Re: Dating of Cluny charters

Legg inn av Peter Stewart » 27 jan 2008 03:41:36

There is an excellent Cluny bibliography online, where further literature on
this subject can be tracked down, at

http://www.uni-muenster.de/Fruehmittela ... elcome.htm

Peter Stewart

"Nathaniel Taylor" <nltaylor@nltaylor.net> wrote in message
news:nltaylor-22308F.19083726012008@earthlink.vsrv-sjc.supernews.net...
In article <13pnf3m1brq1s7d@corp.supernews.com>,
"Stewart Baldwin" <sbaldw@mindspring.com> wrote:

The recent comments about the dating of a couple of charters in the Aubry
of
Mâcon thread lead me to ask about the dating of the Cluny charters in
general. It appears that in all charters dated by regnal years of
Lothair,
the editors used an accession date of 12 November 954 for all charters in
which the date thus obtained could not be shown false by other evidence.
However, there are 44 Cluny charters which are dated in years from the
33rd
to the 40th year of Lothaire (placing them after his death if dated from
954). These charters are dated by the editors with a starting point of
946.
[See Alexandre Bruel, "Études sur la chronologie des rois de France et de
Bourgogne d'après les diplomes et les chartes de l'abbaye de Cluny"]

I have a problem with the logic behind the editors' convention in thus
assigning dates to these charters. If the 44 charters with a regnal date
of
33 or higher are to be regarded as genuine and not corrupt, then it would
mean that some other starting point was being used in some circles for
dating charters during Lothair's reign. In that case an assumed starting
point of 946 (the latest date not inconsistent with Lothair's date of
death)
seems a bit arbitrary to me. Also, assuming that such an alternate dating
system was being used, it seems to me that we have no way of knowing
whether
or not various charters with a regnal year of 32 or lower were dated to
one
system or the other. Thus, could there not be a large number of Cluny
charters, both above and below 32 regnal years, for which the assigned
dates
of the editors are innacurate? I have seen this addressed (on a very
small
scale, and not very convincingly) for three specific charters by Chizelle
(1986) and Settipani (1994) in their discussions of the death date of
count
Lambert of Chalon. Does anybody known whether or not this been discussed
in
the literature in a more systematic way?

This is turning some very corroded wheels for me. Surely it is
discussed at length in Maurice Chaume's series of articles,
"Observations sur la chronologie des chartes de l'abbaye de Cluny,"
_Revue Mabillon_ 16 (1926):44-48; 29 (1939):81-89; 29 (1939):133-42; 31
(1941):14-19, 42-45, 69-82; 32 (1942):15-20, 133-36; 38 (1948):1-6; 39
(1949):41-43; 42 (1952):1-4. I expect that this has been satisfactorily
explained either by Chaume or since, but I don't know what the
explanation is.

Nat Taylor
http://www.nltaylor.net

Nathaniel Taylor

Re: Dating of Cluny charters

Legg inn av Nathaniel Taylor » 27 jan 2008 05:40:01

In article <AbSmj.7391$421.5187@news-server.bigpond.net.au>,
"Peter Stewart" <p_m_stewart@msn.com> wrote:

There is an excellent Cluny bibliography online, where further literature on
this subject can be tracked down, at

http://www.uni-muenster.de/Fruehmittela ... elcome.htm

Egad what a time-suck. Using the amazing Cluny bibliography pages I
couldn't key-word-search my way to anything explicit after Chaume on the
chronological issues with Cluny charters. Looking at the "Urkunden des
Klosters Cluny" project page it is not clear to me whether a completely
new edition is in the works, or merely a prosopographical concordance to
Bruel's edition. Presumably however it's done they will already have
addressed standing issues such as systematically misdated groups of
charters.

I see one relevant bit in the 'Urkunden' section of the local
bibliography, the 'Clunyforschung in Münster' page:

Maria Hillebrandt, Untersuchungen zur Überlieferung und Chronologie der
Urkunden des Klosters Cluny (Münstersche Mittelalter-Schriften).

Listed as in press, but apparently not out yet.

Nat Taylor
http://www.nltaylor.net

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