Sons of Aubry II of Mâcon

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Stewart Baldwin

Sons of Aubry II of Mâcon

Legg inn av Stewart Baldwin » 25 jan 2008 00:30:05

Two sons named Aubry and Liétaud are often mentioned for Aubry II, count of
Mâcon, but the sources I have seen (or seen quoted) seem to lack clear
proof. Constance Bouchard, Sword, Miter, and Cloister (1987), 264, n. 26,
states that she once doubted the existence of these sons and then remarks:
"This was because I had not yet seen the Tournus documents in which two
individuals named Alberic and Leotald sign a charter after Alberic II and
before Ermentrude; they must be their sons." The "Tournus documents" would
be Pierre Juénin, Nouvelle histoire de l'abbaye de Saint-Filibert et de la
ville de Tournus, II, Preuves (Dijon, 1733), 116-8. (Rameau, Les comtes
héréditaires de Mâcon, Annales de l'Académie de Mâcon 3ser. 6 (1901):
121-209, at p. 138 cites what is apparently the same charter, but does not
say that Liétaud (signing as subdeacon) and Aubry were sons of Aubry II.)

Is there any better evidence of the supposed relationship between Aubry II
and these two alleged sons? Signing the charter between Aubry II and his
wife seems like flimsy evidence to me.

Stewart Baldwin

Peter Stewart

Re: Sons of Aubry II of Mâcon

Legg inn av Peter Stewart » 25 jan 2008 01:31:01

On Jan 25, 10:33 am, "Stewart Baldwin" <sba...@mindspring.com> wrote:
Two sons named Aubry and Liétaud are often mentioned for Aubry II,
count of Mâcon, but the sources I have seen (or seen quoted) seem
to lack clear proof. Constance Bouchard, Sword, Miter, and Cloister
(1987), 264, n. 26, states that she once doubted the existence of
these sons and then remarks: "This was because I had not yet seen
the Tournus documents in which two individuals named Alberic and
Leotald sign a charter after Alberic II and before Ermentrude; they
must be their sons." The "Tournus documents" would be Pierre
Juénin, Nouvelle histoire de l'abbaye de Saint-Filibert et de la ville de
Tournus, II, Preuves (Dijon, 1733), 116-8. (Rameau, Les comtes
héréditaires de Mâcon, Annales de l'Académie de Mâcon 3ser. 6
1901): 121-209, at p. 138 cites what is apparently the same charter,
but does not say that Liétaud (signing as subdeacon) and Aubry
were sons of Aubry II.)

Is there any better evidence of the supposed relationship between
Aubry II and these two alleged sons? Signing the charter between
Aubry II and his wife seems like flimsy evidence to me.

There are certainly many examples where clearly unrelated men
subscribed charters between a count and his wife. If these two
appeared a few times as the only names between Aubry and Ermentrude,
it would seem plausible that they were family members, while a bit
more likely to me - absent any other indications - that they were his
sons by a previous wife. But there were no fast rules, and this would
be open to interpretation along with other indirect evidence. I
emphasise that I have not looked into this particular question.

There is a charter of Aubry II for Cluny dated 14 January 971 (vol. ii
no. 1291, on p. 368) where a Liétaud subscribed next after Ermentrude
("Signum Alberici, comitis...S. Ermentrudis, conjuge sua. S.
Leotaldi."). If this is her son by Aubry, it appears that he must have
been a baby or very young child at the time; if a brother named Aubry
was represented as subscribing before him on another occasion, this
would suggest the order of their birth, and consequently that the
younger Aubry's absence in January 971 might indicate he was dead in
infancy by 14 January 971, long before his probably younger sibling
Liétaud had became a subdeacon. But again, there were no fixed rules
for the order of subscription by young children - if there was reason
for their names to be added in the first place, it is also reasonable
to expect that no living son who could later contest the interests at
stake would be left out in normal circumstances.

Peter Stewart

Peter Stewart

Re: Sons of Aubry II of Mâcon

Legg inn av Peter Stewart » 25 jan 2008 02:47:35

"Peter Stewart" <p_m_stewart@msn.com> wrote in message
news:9bed7d52-b341-4587-81e1-d7dd42783536@e4g2000hsg.googlegroups.com...
On Jan 25, 10:33 am, "Stewart Baldwin" <sba...@mindspring.com> wrote:
Two sons named Aubry and Liétaud are often mentioned for Aubry II,
count of Mâcon, but the sources I have seen (or seen quoted) seem
to lack clear proof. Constance Bouchard, Sword, Miter, and Cloister
(1987), 264, n. 26, states that she once doubted the existence of
these sons and then remarks: "This was because I had not yet seen
the Tournus documents in which two individuals named Alberic and
Leotald sign a charter after Alberic II and before Ermentrude; they
must be their sons." The "Tournus documents" would be Pierre
Juénin, Nouvelle histoire de l'abbaye de Saint-Filibert et de la ville de
Tournus, II, Preuves (Dijon, 1733), 116-8. (Rameau, Les comtes
héréditaires de Mâcon, Annales de l'Académie de Mâcon 3ser. 6
1901): 121-209, at p. 138 cites what is apparently the same charter,
but does not say that Liétaud (signing as subdeacon) and Aubry
were sons of Aubry II.)

On checking Rameau's work I see that the Tournus charter he cites was dated
14 January 974 - a son of Ermentrude could hardly have been a sub-deacon by
that time, if she was the daughter of Alberada of Lorraine whose children
appear to have been born in the 950s. I don't think there is any record of
Ermentrude being married to Aubry before the charter of January 971 I
mentioned earlier, but even if she was his wife by ca 965 her son would not
be in orders ca 9 years later.

Peter Stewart

Stewart Baldwin

Re: Sons of Aubry II of Mâcon

Legg inn av Stewart Baldwin » 25 jan 2008 05:45:03

Peter Stewart <p_m_stewart@msn.com> wrote:

On checking Rameau's work I see that the Tournus charter he cites was
dated 14 January 974 - a son of Ermentrude could hardly have been a
sub-deacon by that time, if she was the daughter of Alberada of Lorraine
whose children appear to have been born in the 950s. I don't think there
is any record of Ermentrude being married to Aubry before the charter of
January 971 I mentioned earlier, but even if she was his wife by ca 965
her son would not be in orders ca 9 years later.

If Liétaud the subdeacon was indeed a son of Aubry II (and as far as I can
tell, there is a notable lack of evidence for this), it seems that he would
have to be by an otherwise unknown first wife.

It is interesting to note that Christian Settipani, in his article "Les
vicomtes de Châteaudun et leur alliés", in Keats-Rohan & Settipani, eds.,
Onomastique et Parenté dans l'Occident médiéval (Oxford, 2000), p. 255,
mentions an article by J.-N. Mathieu (Nouvelles recherches sur les premiers
comtes de Tonnere et de Bar-sur-Aube, Bulletin annuel de la société
d'archéologie et d'histoire du Tonnerois, 51 (1998), 4-18, which I have not
seen), which offers four supposed children of Aubry II by a conjectured
previous marriage to a daughter of Geoffroy, viscount of Orléans. Besides
Aubry's solidly documented daughter Beatrix, wife of Geoffroy of Gâtinais
(who, it seems to me, could be a daughter of Ermentrude for all that we know
about her chronology), Mathieu offered three additional conjectured children
of this supposed first marriage:

1. Ermengarde, wife of Milon IV of Tonnere. [previously suggested as Aubry's
daughter by Settipani in his work "Les Widonides", mémoire de D.E.A., 1998,
which I also have not seen]. This is based on the facts that Milon and
Ermengarde had a son named Aubry and Aubry II' mother was named Ermengarde.

2. Renard, d. 1015, abbot of Saint-Pierre-le-Vif, based on the fact that
Milon and Ermengarde also had a son named Renard.

3. NN (sister of Renard), m. NN de Château-Thierry, mother of Thierry,
bishop of Orléans, based on the facts that Thierry had a brother named Aubry
and that Thierry was called a consanguineus of Milon V, son of Milon IV.

Settipani expressed doubt that Aubry's earlier wife was a daughter of
Geoffroy, but was receptive to the rest. Based on the name Beatrix, which
Settipani regards as pointing toward a Vermandois origin (apparently based
on the false premise that Heribert I of Vermandois had a daughter Beatrix
who was the mother of Hugues le Grand), he had previously suggested
(apparently in the Widonides paper) that Aubry's first wife might be a
sister of Hugues Capet. In the Châteaudun paper, he suggested a connection
with count Renard of Sens, a propinquus of Heribert II.

(I should add that I am dubious about all of these conjectures.)

Stewart Baldwin

Stewart Baldwin

Re: Sons of Aubry II of Mâcon

Legg inn av Stewart Baldwin » 26 jan 2008 23:24:37

"Peter Stewart" <p_m_stewart@msn.com> wrote:
On checking Rameau's work I see that the Tournus charter he cites was
dated 14 January 974 - a son of Ermentrude could hardly have been a
sub-deacon by that time, if she was the daughter of Alberada of Lorraine
whose children appear to have been born in the 950s. I don't think there
is any record of Ermentrude being married to Aubry before the charter of
January 971 I mentioned earlier, but even if she was his wife by ca 965
her son would not be in orders ca 9 years later.

A fact that had escaped my notice before: All three of the relevant charters
(the Cluny charter and the two Tournus charters) were dated 14 January in
the twentieth year of Lothair. The Cluny charter has been dated by the
editor to 971 instead of 974 because the day of the week is given as a
Saturday, which fits 971 (thus the charter is evidently dating from
Lothair's reign as joint king rather than his declaration as sole king).
Thus, since these charters seem to have been executed on the same day, the
appearance of the second Aubry on at least one of the Tournus charters and
his absence on the Cluny charter has to be explained by some other reason
than his birth or death in the interval.

Stewart Baldwin

Peter Stewart

Re: Sons of Aubry II of Mâcon

Legg inn av Peter Stewart » 27 jan 2008 07:50:11

"Stewart Baldwin" <sbaldw@mindspring.com> wrote in message
news:13pnce9qqik2cc2@corp.supernews.com...
"Peter Stewart" <p_m_stewart@msn.com> wrote:

On checking Rameau's work I see that the Tournus charter he cites was
dated 14 January 974 - a son of Ermentrude could hardly have been a
sub-deacon by that time, if she was the daughter of Alberada of Lorraine
whose children appear to have been born in the 950s. I don't think there
is any record of Ermentrude being married to Aubry before the charter of
January 971 I mentioned earlier, but even if she was his wife by ca 965
her son would not be in orders ca 9 years later.

A fact that had escaped my notice before: All three of the relevant
charters (the Cluny charter and the two Tournus charters) were dated 14
January in the twentieth year of Lothair. The Cluny charter has been dated
by the editor to 971 instead of 974 because the day of the week is given
as a Saturday, which fits 971 (thus the charter is evidently dating from
Lothair's reign as joint king rather than his declaration as sole king).
Thus, since these charters seem to have been executed on the same day, the
appearance of the second Aubry on at least one of the Tournus charters and
his absence on the Cluny charter has to be explained by some other reason
than his birth or death in the interval.

Lacking a modern edition of the Saint-Philibert de Tournus charters, it's
not likely that this question can be resolved. As far as I can tell from
reports of Juénin's edition, that I haven't seen, the names of Aubry and
Liétaud the sub-deacon might or might not have actually occurred between
Count Aubry and his wife in the original document, but could perhaps have
been written instead in a second column beside theirs, with the layout of
the subscribers' names rearranged in transcription.

I can see no reason to think that someone in minor orders by January of 971,
or 974, and another name appearing beside his on two charters of the same
date but not in a third, were sons of Count Aubry II; and anyway the
discrepancy of omitting one from the Cluny charter, when we know he was
present on the day, does not suggest that they were brothers with the same
prospective interest in a father's transactions.

Unless Bouchard had some other evidence to go on, it may be that she was
just making or following a simplistic assumption, based on the onomastics.
This is a frequent habit of hers.

Peter Stewart

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