Fw: Children of Isabel of England (died 1241), wife of Emper

[Leo van de Pas]

It is great to see Richardson stray outside of England for once, and also
his interest in Emperor Friedrich II, who I think is one of the giants
amongst historical figures, no wonder they called him "stupor mundi".

I think Richardson also should have compared with ES 1.1 Tafel 15 as there
he would have found agreements with some of his suggestions.

ES Freytag von Loringhoven, (1975) Band I Tafel 5. Gives only two children
1.Margaretha born 1237
2.Heinrich born 18 January 1238, died 1253

ES Schwennicke 1.1 Tafel 15 gives four children:
1.Margaretha born _late 1237_ which makes the birth date for Heinrich
rediculous

2.Carlotus, 1242 Heinrich (I presume his name was changed in 1242) born 18
February 1238 (different from Freytag vL)
Heinrich died December 1353/January 1254

3.F(riedrich) born 1239/40 died young

4.child born Foggia shortly after 1 December 1241

This leaves unmentioned Jordan and Agnes the first two mentioned by
Richardson.

Friedrich II and Isabella married 20 July 1235, and to have two births
within 19 months is squeezing it a bit, in my opinion.
However, if we can eliminate Agnes, born February 1237 and have Margaretha
born late 1237, seems to make much more sense.
This leaves Jordan as a definite possibility. But Jordan is a rather unusual
name in this family. However, when/if he was born he had alive two older
half-brothers Heinrich 1212-1242 and Konrad IV 1228-1254 which might have
been a reason to choose an unusual name----but somehow I doubt it..

With best wishes
Leo van de Pas
Canberra, Australia


----- Original Message -----
From: "Douglas Richardson" <[email protected]>
Newsgroups: soc.genealogy.medieval, soc.history.medieval,
alt.history.british, alt.talk.royalty
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Sunday, January 20, 2008 9:52 AM
Subject: Children of Isabel of England (died 1241), wife of Emperor
Frederick II


Dear Newsgroup ~

The historian, Mary Anne Everett Green, presents an interesting and
well researched biography of King John's daughter, Isabel of England,
in her book, Lives of the Princesses of England, 2 (1857): 1-48. This
biography is available online at the following weblink:

http://books.google.com/books?id=7N4KAA ... so#PPR1,M1

Isabel of England married in 1235 at Worms to Emperor Frederick II.
Green states that Isabel gave birth to four children in all, which are
listed below. The online database, http://www.mittelalter-genealogie.de,
however, only lists two children for Isabel, namely Heinrich and
Margaretha. Other sources list still other children, including a son,
Friedrich. The only thing on which modern sources seem to agree is
that only two children that survived Isabel and Frederick, namely one
son, Heinrich, born in 1238, and one daughter, Margaretha.

Here is the list of Isabel of England's children as provided by Mary
Anne Everett Green, with her sources noted:

1. Jordan (son), born at Ravenna in early 1236; died as an infant the
same year. Green, Lives of the Princesses of England 2 (1857): 30,
footnote 2 (citing Agostino Inveges Annali della felice Città di
Palermo (1649): 588; Rocchus Pirrus Chronologia Regum Siciliæ
Graevius, vol. v., col. 48; Raumer Geschichte der Hohenstaufen, vol.
iii., p. 703, note).

Note: Another source agrees with Green regarding the existence of this
child is Gregorovius, History of the City of Rome in the Middle Ages
5(1) (1906): 273, footnote 2.

2. Agnes (daughter), born in Feb. 1237. She died soon afterwards.
Green Lives of the Princesses of England 2 (1857): 34, footnote 1
(citing Agostino Inveges Annali della felice Città di Palermo (1649):
589; Epistolæ Petri de Vincis, book iii., No. 71; Rocchus Pirrus
Chronologia Regum SiciliæGraevius, vol. v., col. 48).

3. Heinrich, born 18 Feb. 1238. He was appointed Regent of Sicily
during his father's absence in Italy. He was a legatee in the 1250
will of his father, who bequeathed him either the kingdom of Arles or
Jerusalem, as his older half-brother, Conrad, might prefer. Henry
died in Dec. 1253-Jan. 1254. Green, Lives of the Princesses of
England 2 (1857): 34, footnotes 4, 5 (citing Paris, vol. ii., p. 455;
Epistolæ Petri de Vincis Letters, book iii., No. 70; Rocchus Pirrus
Chronologia Regum Siciliæ Graevius, vol. v., col. 48), 46, footnote 2.

For additional references for Heinrich, see: Kingston, History of
Frederick the Second, Emperor of the Romans 1 (1862): 477; 2 (1862):
62, 438, 471, 501, 505-507; Gregorovius, History of the City of Rome
in the Middle Ages 5(1) (1906): 273.

4. Margaretha (daughter), born at Foggia 1 Dec 1241. She married in
1254/5 (by contract dated 1245) (as his 1st wife) Albrecht II,
Margrave of Meissen, Landgrave of Thüringia. She died at Frankfurt 8
August 1270, and was buried in Frankfurt. Green, Lives of the
Princesses of England 2 (1857): 46, footnote 3 (citing Tentzel vita
Fred. II.; Menckenius Rer. Germ. Script. Ant., vol. ii., col. 897),
46, footnote 4 (citing "The 16th letter in the 5th book of De Vinea's
Epistles" for the marriage of Margaretha and Albrecht).

For additional references for Margaretha, see: Pertz, Annales aevi
Suevici (Monumenta Germaniæ Historica, Scriptores 16) (1859): 44
(Annales Veterocellenses sub A.D. 1270: "Margareta nobilis domina
lantgravia Thuringie, filia Friderici imperatoris, fugit die sancti
Iohannis baptiste; obiitque 6. Idus Augusti [8 August] eodem
anno.");Kingston, History of Frederick the Second, Emperor of the
Romans 1 (1862): 477; 2 (1862): 62, 347, 426-427. Online resources:
http://
http://www.mittelalter-genealogie.de/mi ... 1270.html;
http:// genealogy.euweb.cz/wettin/wettin2.html#AD.

+ + + + + + + + + + + + +

Further comments:

The historian Kingston cited above, 2 (1962): 426 states that
Margaretha, daughter of Emperor Frederick II and Isabel, was first
betrothed to the nephew of the deceased Thuringian king. "After the
death of her intended bridegroom, she had been sent to the margrave of
Meissen, one of the richest Princes in Germany owing to his silver
mines, to be to married his son Albert, who was then but four years
old." This information may be found at the following weblink:

http://books.google.com/books?id=E2Ypo2 ... #PPA426,M1

While this may all be true, if so, Margaretha can not have been born
in 1241 as claimed by Green. This is proven by the published Annales
Sancti Pantaleonis Coloniensis which records that Hermann, Landgrave
of Thüringia, repudiated an unnamed daughter of Emperor Frrederick II
sometime before his death in 1241 [Reference: Pertz, Historici
Germaniae saec. XII. (Monumenta Germaniæ Historica, Scriptores 22)
(1872): 536 (Annales Sancti Pantaleonis Coloniensis sub A.D. 1241:
"Ipso anno Hermannus landgravius filius sancte Elysabeth, obiit, qui,
repudiata filia imperatoris sibi desponsata, filia ducis de Brunswich
duxerat n uxorem."). Assuming that Kingston is correct that Hermann
was contracted to marry Margaretha, she can not have been born in
1241, as Hermann died in that year, he already having married someone
else. However, since Hermann's contracted spouse is not named in the
record, it is possible that his contracted spouse who was actually
Margaretha's older sister, Agnes, assuming Agnes really existed as
stated by Green. Quite possibly, the correct solution is that the
female child born in 1237 was actually Margaretha, and that Agnes does
not exist.

When replying, please cite your sources if you have any, and provide
your weblinks. Thank you.

Best always, Douglas Richardson, Salt Lake City, Utah


-------------------------------
To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to
[email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without the
quotes in the subject and the body of the message


--
No virus found in this incoming message.
Checked by AVG Free Edition.
Version: 7.5.516 / Virus Database: 269.19.7/1233 - Release Date: 1/19/2008
6:37 PM