Children of Isabel of England (died 1241), wife of Emperor F
Moderator: MOD_nyhetsgrupper
-
Douglas Richardson
Children of Isabel of England (died 1241), wife of Emperor F
Dear Newsgroup ~
The historian, Mary Anne Everett Green, presents an interesting and
well researched biography of King John's daughter, Isabel of England,
in her book, Lives of the Princesses of England, 2 (1857): 1-48. This
biography is available online at the following weblink:
http://books.google.com/books?id=7N4KAA ... so#PPR1,M1
Isabel of England married in 1235 at Worms to Emperor Frederick II.
Green states that Isabel gave birth to four children in all, which are
listed below. The online database, http://www.mittelalter-genealogie.de,
however, only lists two children for Isabel, namely Heinrich and
Margaretha. Other sources list still other children, including a son,
Friedrich. The only thing on which modern sources seem to agree is
that only two children that survived Isabel and Frederick, namely one
son, Heinrich, born in 1238, and one daughter, Margaretha.
Here is the list of Isabel of England's children as provided by Mary
Anne Everett Green, with her sources noted:
1. Jordan (son), born at Ravenna in early 1236; died as an infant the
same year. Green, Lives of the Princesses of England 2 (1857): 30,
footnote 2 (citing Agostino Inveges Annali della felice Città di
Palermo (1649): 588; Rocchus Pirrus Chronologia Regum Siciliæ
Graevius, vol. v., col. 48; Raumer Geschichte der Hohenstaufen, vol.
iii., p. 703, note).
Note: Another source agrees with Green regarding the existence of this
child is Gregorovius, History of the City of Rome in the Middle Ages
5(1) (1906): 273, footnote 2.
2. Agnes (daughter), born in Feb. 1237. She died soon afterwards.
Green Lives of the Princesses of England 2 (1857): 34, footnote 1
(citing Agostino Inveges Annali della felice Città di Palermo (1649):
589; Epistolæ Petri de Vincis, book iii., No. 71; Rocchus Pirrus
Chronologia Regum SiciliæGraevius, vol. v., col. 48).
3. Heinrich, born 18 Feb. 1238. He was appointed Regent of Sicily
during his father's absence in Italy. He was a legatee in the 1250
will of his father, who bequeathed him either the kingdom of Arles or
Jerusalem, as his older half-brother, Conrad, might prefer. Henry
died in Dec. 1253-Jan. 1254. Green, Lives of the Princesses of
England 2 (1857): 34, footnotes 4, 5 (citing Paris, vol. ii., p. 455;
Epistolæ Petri de Vincis Letters, book iii., No. 70; Rocchus Pirrus
Chronologia Regum Siciliæ Graevius, vol. v., col. 48), 46, footnote 2.
For additional references for Heinrich, see: Kingston, History of
Frederick the Second, Emperor of the Romans 1 (1862): 477; 2 (1862):
62, 438, 471, 501, 505-507; Gregorovius, History of the City of Rome
in the Middle Ages 5(1) (1906): 273.
4. Margaretha (daughter), born at Foggia 1 Dec 1241. She married in
1254/5 (by contract dated 1245) (as his 1st wife) Albrecht II,
Margrave of Meissen, Landgrave of Thüringia. She died at Frankfurt 8
August 1270, and was buried in Frankfurt. Green, Lives of the
Princesses of England 2 (1857): 46, footnote 3 (citing Tentzel vita
Fred. II.; Menckenius Rer. Germ. Script. Ant., vol. ii., col. 897),
46, footnote 4 (citing "The 16th letter in the 5th book of De Vinea's
Epistles" for the marriage of Margaretha and Albrecht).
For additional references for Margaretha, see: Pertz, Annales aevi
Suevici (Monumenta Germaniæ Historica, Scriptores 16) (1859): 44
(Annales Veterocellenses sub A.D. 1270: "Margareta nobilis domina
lantgravia Thuringie, filia Friderici imperatoris, fugit die sancti
Iohannis baptiste; obiitque 6. Idus Augusti [8 August] eodem
anno.");Kingston, History of Frederick the Second, Emperor of the
Romans 1 (1862): 477; 2 (1862): 62, 347, 426-427. Online resources:
http://
http://www.mittelalter-genealogie.de/mi ... 1270.html;
http:// genealogy.euweb.cz/wettin/wettin2.html#AD.
+ + + + + + + + + + + + +
Further comments:
The historian Kingston cited above, 2 (1962): 426 states that
Margaretha, daughter of Emperor Frederick II and Isabel, was first
betrothed to the nephew of the deceased Thuringian king. "After the
death of her intended bridegroom, she had been sent to the margrave of
Meissen, one of the richest Princes in Germany owing to his silver
mines, to be to married his son Albert, who was then but four years
old." This information may be found at the following weblink:
http://books.google.com/books?id=E2Ypo2 ... #PPA426,M1
While this may all be true, if so, Margaretha can not have been born
in 1241 as claimed by Green. This is proven by the published Annales
Sancti Pantaleonis Coloniensis which records that Hermann, Landgrave
of Thüringia, repudiated an unnamed daughter of Emperor Frrederick II
sometime before his death in 1241 [Reference: Pertz, Historici
Germaniae saec. XII. (Monumenta Germaniæ Historica, Scriptores 22)
(1872): 536 (Annales Sancti Pantaleonis Coloniensis sub A.D. 1241:
"Ipso anno Hermannus landgravius filius sancte Elysabeth, obiit, qui,
repudiata filia imperatoris sibi desponsata, filia ducis de Brunswich
duxerat n uxorem."). Assuming that Kingston is correct that Hermann
was contracted to marry Margaretha, she can not have been born in
1241, as Hermann died in that year, he already having married someone
else. However, since Hermann's contracted spouse is not named in the
record, it is possible that his contracted spouse who was actually
Margaretha's older sister, Agnes, assuming Agnes really existed as
stated by Green. Quite possibly, the correct solution is that the
female child born in 1237 was actually Margaretha, and that Agnes does
not exist.
When replying, please cite your sources if you have any, and provide
your weblinks. Thank you.
Best always, Douglas Richardson, Salt Lake City, Utah
The historian, Mary Anne Everett Green, presents an interesting and
well researched biography of King John's daughter, Isabel of England,
in her book, Lives of the Princesses of England, 2 (1857): 1-48. This
biography is available online at the following weblink:
http://books.google.com/books?id=7N4KAA ... so#PPR1,M1
Isabel of England married in 1235 at Worms to Emperor Frederick II.
Green states that Isabel gave birth to four children in all, which are
listed below. The online database, http://www.mittelalter-genealogie.de,
however, only lists two children for Isabel, namely Heinrich and
Margaretha. Other sources list still other children, including a son,
Friedrich. The only thing on which modern sources seem to agree is
that only two children that survived Isabel and Frederick, namely one
son, Heinrich, born in 1238, and one daughter, Margaretha.
Here is the list of Isabel of England's children as provided by Mary
Anne Everett Green, with her sources noted:
1. Jordan (son), born at Ravenna in early 1236; died as an infant the
same year. Green, Lives of the Princesses of England 2 (1857): 30,
footnote 2 (citing Agostino Inveges Annali della felice Città di
Palermo (1649): 588; Rocchus Pirrus Chronologia Regum Siciliæ
Graevius, vol. v., col. 48; Raumer Geschichte der Hohenstaufen, vol.
iii., p. 703, note).
Note: Another source agrees with Green regarding the existence of this
child is Gregorovius, History of the City of Rome in the Middle Ages
5(1) (1906): 273, footnote 2.
2. Agnes (daughter), born in Feb. 1237. She died soon afterwards.
Green Lives of the Princesses of England 2 (1857): 34, footnote 1
(citing Agostino Inveges Annali della felice Città di Palermo (1649):
589; Epistolæ Petri de Vincis, book iii., No. 71; Rocchus Pirrus
Chronologia Regum SiciliæGraevius, vol. v., col. 48).
3. Heinrich, born 18 Feb. 1238. He was appointed Regent of Sicily
during his father's absence in Italy. He was a legatee in the 1250
will of his father, who bequeathed him either the kingdom of Arles or
Jerusalem, as his older half-brother, Conrad, might prefer. Henry
died in Dec. 1253-Jan. 1254. Green, Lives of the Princesses of
England 2 (1857): 34, footnotes 4, 5 (citing Paris, vol. ii., p. 455;
Epistolæ Petri de Vincis Letters, book iii., No. 70; Rocchus Pirrus
Chronologia Regum Siciliæ Graevius, vol. v., col. 48), 46, footnote 2.
For additional references for Heinrich, see: Kingston, History of
Frederick the Second, Emperor of the Romans 1 (1862): 477; 2 (1862):
62, 438, 471, 501, 505-507; Gregorovius, History of the City of Rome
in the Middle Ages 5(1) (1906): 273.
4. Margaretha (daughter), born at Foggia 1 Dec 1241. She married in
1254/5 (by contract dated 1245) (as his 1st wife) Albrecht II,
Margrave of Meissen, Landgrave of Thüringia. She died at Frankfurt 8
August 1270, and was buried in Frankfurt. Green, Lives of the
Princesses of England 2 (1857): 46, footnote 3 (citing Tentzel vita
Fred. II.; Menckenius Rer. Germ. Script. Ant., vol. ii., col. 897),
46, footnote 4 (citing "The 16th letter in the 5th book of De Vinea's
Epistles" for the marriage of Margaretha and Albrecht).
For additional references for Margaretha, see: Pertz, Annales aevi
Suevici (Monumenta Germaniæ Historica, Scriptores 16) (1859): 44
(Annales Veterocellenses sub A.D. 1270: "Margareta nobilis domina
lantgravia Thuringie, filia Friderici imperatoris, fugit die sancti
Iohannis baptiste; obiitque 6. Idus Augusti [8 August] eodem
anno.");Kingston, History of Frederick the Second, Emperor of the
Romans 1 (1862): 477; 2 (1862): 62, 347, 426-427. Online resources:
http://
http://www.mittelalter-genealogie.de/mi ... 1270.html;
http:// genealogy.euweb.cz/wettin/wettin2.html#AD.
+ + + + + + + + + + + + +
Further comments:
The historian Kingston cited above, 2 (1962): 426 states that
Margaretha, daughter of Emperor Frederick II and Isabel, was first
betrothed to the nephew of the deceased Thuringian king. "After the
death of her intended bridegroom, she had been sent to the margrave of
Meissen, one of the richest Princes in Germany owing to his silver
mines, to be to married his son Albert, who was then but four years
old." This information may be found at the following weblink:
http://books.google.com/books?id=E2Ypo2 ... #PPA426,M1
While this may all be true, if so, Margaretha can not have been born
in 1241 as claimed by Green. This is proven by the published Annales
Sancti Pantaleonis Coloniensis which records that Hermann, Landgrave
of Thüringia, repudiated an unnamed daughter of Emperor Frrederick II
sometime before his death in 1241 [Reference: Pertz, Historici
Germaniae saec. XII. (Monumenta Germaniæ Historica, Scriptores 22)
(1872): 536 (Annales Sancti Pantaleonis Coloniensis sub A.D. 1241:
"Ipso anno Hermannus landgravius filius sancte Elysabeth, obiit, qui,
repudiata filia imperatoris sibi desponsata, filia ducis de Brunswich
duxerat n uxorem."). Assuming that Kingston is correct that Hermann
was contracted to marry Margaretha, she can not have been born in
1241, as Hermann died in that year, he already having married someone
else. However, since Hermann's contracted spouse is not named in the
record, it is possible that his contracted spouse who was actually
Margaretha's older sister, Agnes, assuming Agnes really existed as
stated by Green. Quite possibly, the correct solution is that the
female child born in 1237 was actually Margaretha, and that Agnes does
not exist.
When replying, please cite your sources if you have any, and provide
your weblinks. Thank you.
Best always, Douglas Richardson, Salt Lake City, Utah
-
Peter Stewart
Re: Children of Isabel of England (died 1241), wife of Emper
A number of things are wrong in the post below, including the order of birth
of Isabel's children and the years of birth and death given.
But since this relies on 19th-century works citing mostly earlier modern
references, as if the famnily of Frederick II had been of no interest to
chroniclers of his own time or historians of the present time, it is
evidently just another fishing expedition on Richardson's part and not a
serious attempt to contribute or to engage in discussion of any quesitonable
points.
"When replying, please cite your sources if you have any, and provide your
weblinks" - professional, indeed.
When starting a thread, please do your own howework, sensibly, first.
And please refrain from inane cross-posting of purportedly genealogical
stuff to other newsgroups.
Peter Stewart
"Douglas Richardson" <royalancestry@msn.com> wrote in message
news:e1a9fcae-9927-4000-a44d-ed0f7c76bd1b@p69g2000hsa.googlegroups.com...
Dear Newsgroup ~
The historian, Mary Anne Everett Green, presents an interesting and
well researched biography of King John's daughter, Isabel of England,
in her book, Lives of the Princesses of England, 2 (1857): 1-48. This
biography is available online at the following weblink:
http://books.google.com/books?id=7N4KAA ... so#PPR1,M1
Isabel of England married in 1235 at Worms to Emperor Frederick II.
Green states that Isabel gave birth to four children in all, which are
listed below. The online database, http://www.mittelalter-genealogie.de,
however, only lists two children for Isabel, namely Heinrich and
Margaretha. Other sources list still other children, including a son,
Friedrich. The only thing on which modern sources seem to agree is
that only two children that survived Isabel and Frederick, namely one
son, Heinrich, born in 1238, and one daughter, Margaretha.
Here is the list of Isabel of England's children as provided by Mary
Anne Everett Green, with her sources noted:
1. Jordan (son), born at Ravenna in early 1236; died as an infant the
same year. Green, Lives of the Princesses of England 2 (1857): 30,
footnote 2 (citing Agostino Inveges Annali della felice Città di
Palermo (1649): 588; Rocchus Pirrus Chronologia Regum Siciliæ
Graevius, vol. v., col. 48; Raumer Geschichte der Hohenstaufen, vol.
iii., p. 703, note).
Note: Another source agrees with Green regarding the existence of this
child is Gregorovius, History of the City of Rome in the Middle Ages
5(1) (1906): 273, footnote 2.
2. Agnes (daughter), born in Feb. 1237. She died soon afterwards.
Green Lives of the Princesses of England 2 (1857): 34, footnote 1
(citing Agostino Inveges Annali della felice Città di Palermo (1649):
589; Epistolæ Petri de Vincis, book iii., No. 71; Rocchus Pirrus
Chronologia Regum SiciliæGraevius, vol. v., col. 48).
3. Heinrich, born 18 Feb. 1238. He was appointed Regent of Sicily
during his father's absence in Italy. He was a legatee in the 1250
will of his father, who bequeathed him either the kingdom of Arles or
Jerusalem, as his older half-brother, Conrad, might prefer. Henry
died in Dec. 1253-Jan. 1254. Green, Lives of the Princesses of
England 2 (1857): 34, footnotes 4, 5 (citing Paris, vol. ii., p. 455;
Epistolæ Petri de Vincis Letters, book iii., No. 70; Rocchus Pirrus
Chronologia Regum Siciliæ Graevius, vol. v., col. 48), 46, footnote 2.
For additional references for Heinrich, see: Kingston, History of
Frederick the Second, Emperor of the Romans 1 (1862): 477; 2 (1862):
62, 438, 471, 501, 505-507; Gregorovius, History of the City of Rome
in the Middle Ages 5(1) (1906): 273.
4. Margaretha (daughter), born at Foggia 1 Dec 1241. She married in
1254/5 (by contract dated 1245) (as his 1st wife) Albrecht II,
Margrave of Meissen, Landgrave of Thüringia. She died at Frankfurt 8
August 1270, and was buried in Frankfurt. Green, Lives of the
Princesses of England 2 (1857): 46, footnote 3 (citing Tentzel vita
Fred. II.; Menckenius Rer. Germ. Script. Ant., vol. ii., col. 897),
46, footnote 4 (citing "The 16th letter in the 5th book of De Vinea's
Epistles" for the marriage of Margaretha and Albrecht).
For additional references for Margaretha, see: Pertz, Annales aevi
Suevici (Monumenta Germaniæ Historica, Scriptores 16) (1859): 44
(Annales Veterocellenses sub A.D. 1270: "Margareta nobilis domina
lantgravia Thuringie, filia Friderici imperatoris, fugit die sancti
Iohannis baptiste; obiitque 6. Idus Augusti [8 August] eodem
anno.");Kingston, History of Frederick the Second, Emperor of the
Romans 1 (1862): 477; 2 (1862): 62, 347, 426-427. Online resources:
http://
http://www.mittelalter-genealogie.de/mi ... 1270.html;
http:// genealogy.euweb.cz/wettin/wettin2.html#AD.
+ + + + + + + + + + + + +
Further comments:
The historian Kingston cited above, 2 (1962): 426 states that
Margaretha, daughter of Emperor Frederick II and Isabel, was first
betrothed to the nephew of the deceased Thuringian king. "After the
death of her intended bridegroom, she had been sent to the margrave of
Meissen, one of the richest Princes in Germany owing to his silver
mines, to be to married his son Albert, who was then but four years
old." This information may be found at the following weblink:
http://books.google.com/books?id=E2Ypo2 ... #PPA426,M1
While this may all be true, if so, Margaretha can not have been born
in 1241 as claimed by Green. This is proven by the published Annales
Sancti Pantaleonis Coloniensis which records that Hermann, Landgrave
of Thüringia, repudiated an unnamed daughter of Emperor Frrederick II
sometime before his death in 1241 [Reference: Pertz, Historici
Germaniae saec. XII. (Monumenta Germaniæ Historica, Scriptores 22)
(1872): 536 (Annales Sancti Pantaleonis Coloniensis sub A.D. 1241:
"Ipso anno Hermannus landgravius filius sancte Elysabeth, obiit, qui,
repudiata filia imperatoris sibi desponsata, filia ducis de Brunswich
duxerat n uxorem."). Assuming that Kingston is correct that Hermann
was contracted to marry Margaretha, she can not have been born in
1241, as Hermann died in that year, he already having married someone
else. However, since Hermann's contracted spouse is not named in the
record, it is possible that his contracted spouse who was actually
Margaretha's older sister, Agnes, assuming Agnes really existed as
stated by Green. Quite possibly, the correct solution is that the
female child born in 1237 was actually Margaretha, and that Agnes does
not exist.
When replying, please cite your sources if you have any, and provide
your weblinks. Thank you.
Best always, Douglas Richardson, Salt Lake City, Utah
of Isabel's children and the years of birth and death given.
But since this relies on 19th-century works citing mostly earlier modern
references, as if the famnily of Frederick II had been of no interest to
chroniclers of his own time or historians of the present time, it is
evidently just another fishing expedition on Richardson's part and not a
serious attempt to contribute or to engage in discussion of any quesitonable
points.
"When replying, please cite your sources if you have any, and provide your
weblinks" - professional, indeed.
When starting a thread, please do your own howework, sensibly, first.
And please refrain from inane cross-posting of purportedly genealogical
stuff to other newsgroups.
Peter Stewart
"Douglas Richardson" <royalancestry@msn.com> wrote in message
news:e1a9fcae-9927-4000-a44d-ed0f7c76bd1b@p69g2000hsa.googlegroups.com...
Dear Newsgroup ~
The historian, Mary Anne Everett Green, presents an interesting and
well researched biography of King John's daughter, Isabel of England,
in her book, Lives of the Princesses of England, 2 (1857): 1-48. This
biography is available online at the following weblink:
http://books.google.com/books?id=7N4KAA ... so#PPR1,M1
Isabel of England married in 1235 at Worms to Emperor Frederick II.
Green states that Isabel gave birth to four children in all, which are
listed below. The online database, http://www.mittelalter-genealogie.de,
however, only lists two children for Isabel, namely Heinrich and
Margaretha. Other sources list still other children, including a son,
Friedrich. The only thing on which modern sources seem to agree is
that only two children that survived Isabel and Frederick, namely one
son, Heinrich, born in 1238, and one daughter, Margaretha.
Here is the list of Isabel of England's children as provided by Mary
Anne Everett Green, with her sources noted:
1. Jordan (son), born at Ravenna in early 1236; died as an infant the
same year. Green, Lives of the Princesses of England 2 (1857): 30,
footnote 2 (citing Agostino Inveges Annali della felice Città di
Palermo (1649): 588; Rocchus Pirrus Chronologia Regum Siciliæ
Graevius, vol. v., col. 48; Raumer Geschichte der Hohenstaufen, vol.
iii., p. 703, note).
Note: Another source agrees with Green regarding the existence of this
child is Gregorovius, History of the City of Rome in the Middle Ages
5(1) (1906): 273, footnote 2.
2. Agnes (daughter), born in Feb. 1237. She died soon afterwards.
Green Lives of the Princesses of England 2 (1857): 34, footnote 1
(citing Agostino Inveges Annali della felice Città di Palermo (1649):
589; Epistolæ Petri de Vincis, book iii., No. 71; Rocchus Pirrus
Chronologia Regum SiciliæGraevius, vol. v., col. 48).
3. Heinrich, born 18 Feb. 1238. He was appointed Regent of Sicily
during his father's absence in Italy. He was a legatee in the 1250
will of his father, who bequeathed him either the kingdom of Arles or
Jerusalem, as his older half-brother, Conrad, might prefer. Henry
died in Dec. 1253-Jan. 1254. Green, Lives of the Princesses of
England 2 (1857): 34, footnotes 4, 5 (citing Paris, vol. ii., p. 455;
Epistolæ Petri de Vincis Letters, book iii., No. 70; Rocchus Pirrus
Chronologia Regum Siciliæ Graevius, vol. v., col. 48), 46, footnote 2.
For additional references for Heinrich, see: Kingston, History of
Frederick the Second, Emperor of the Romans 1 (1862): 477; 2 (1862):
62, 438, 471, 501, 505-507; Gregorovius, History of the City of Rome
in the Middle Ages 5(1) (1906): 273.
4. Margaretha (daughter), born at Foggia 1 Dec 1241. She married in
1254/5 (by contract dated 1245) (as his 1st wife) Albrecht II,
Margrave of Meissen, Landgrave of Thüringia. She died at Frankfurt 8
August 1270, and was buried in Frankfurt. Green, Lives of the
Princesses of England 2 (1857): 46, footnote 3 (citing Tentzel vita
Fred. II.; Menckenius Rer. Germ. Script. Ant., vol. ii., col. 897),
46, footnote 4 (citing "The 16th letter in the 5th book of De Vinea's
Epistles" for the marriage of Margaretha and Albrecht).
For additional references for Margaretha, see: Pertz, Annales aevi
Suevici (Monumenta Germaniæ Historica, Scriptores 16) (1859): 44
(Annales Veterocellenses sub A.D. 1270: "Margareta nobilis domina
lantgravia Thuringie, filia Friderici imperatoris, fugit die sancti
Iohannis baptiste; obiitque 6. Idus Augusti [8 August] eodem
anno.");Kingston, History of Frederick the Second, Emperor of the
Romans 1 (1862): 477; 2 (1862): 62, 347, 426-427. Online resources:
http://
http://www.mittelalter-genealogie.de/mi ... 1270.html;
http:// genealogy.euweb.cz/wettin/wettin2.html#AD.
+ + + + + + + + + + + + +
Further comments:
The historian Kingston cited above, 2 (1962): 426 states that
Margaretha, daughter of Emperor Frederick II and Isabel, was first
betrothed to the nephew of the deceased Thuringian king. "After the
death of her intended bridegroom, she had been sent to the margrave of
Meissen, one of the richest Princes in Germany owing to his silver
mines, to be to married his son Albert, who was then but four years
old." This information may be found at the following weblink:
http://books.google.com/books?id=E2Ypo2 ... #PPA426,M1
While this may all be true, if so, Margaretha can not have been born
in 1241 as claimed by Green. This is proven by the published Annales
Sancti Pantaleonis Coloniensis which records that Hermann, Landgrave
of Thüringia, repudiated an unnamed daughter of Emperor Frrederick II
sometime before his death in 1241 [Reference: Pertz, Historici
Germaniae saec. XII. (Monumenta Germaniæ Historica, Scriptores 22)
(1872): 536 (Annales Sancti Pantaleonis Coloniensis sub A.D. 1241:
"Ipso anno Hermannus landgravius filius sancte Elysabeth, obiit, qui,
repudiata filia imperatoris sibi desponsata, filia ducis de Brunswich
duxerat n uxorem."). Assuming that Kingston is correct that Hermann
was contracted to marry Margaretha, she can not have been born in
1241, as Hermann died in that year, he already having married someone
else. However, since Hermann's contracted spouse is not named in the
record, it is possible that his contracted spouse who was actually
Margaretha's older sister, Agnes, assuming Agnes really existed as
stated by Green. Quite possibly, the correct solution is that the
female child born in 1237 was actually Margaretha, and that Agnes does
not exist.
When replying, please cite your sources if you have any, and provide
your weblinks. Thank you.
Best always, Douglas Richardson, Salt Lake City, Utah
-
Tim
Re: Children of Isabel of England (died 1241), wife of Emper
On Jan 19, 5:52 pm, Douglas Richardson <royalances...@msn.com> wrote:
'Genealogics' gives "about Feb 1237" as the date of Margaretha's birth
while Wikipedia gives "1 Dec 1241". As a daughter of Emperor Frederick
II (Stupor Mundi) she was a Hohenstaufen princess. Here's a lineage
from Margaretha and her mother Princess Isabella to the present
British royal family:
King John of England ( d. 1216) father of:
Princess Isabella (b.1214) mother of:
Princess Margaretha von Hohenstaufen (b. 1237/1241) mother of:
Agnes von Meissen, mother of:
Duchess Mechtild of Brunswick, mother of"
Sophie von Werle, mother of:
Elisabeth von Pommern-Wolgast, mother of:
Duke Johann IV of Mecklenburg-Schwerin (b.1365) father of:
Duke Heinrich IV of Mecklenburg-Schwerin (b.1417) father of:
Duke Magnus II of Mecklenburg-Schwerin (b.1441) father of:
Duke Heinrich V of Mecklenburg-Schwerin (b.1479) father of:
Duchess Sophie (b.1508) mother of:
Duke Wilhelm of Brunswick-Luneburg (B.1535) father of:
Duke Georg of Brunswick-Luneburg (b.1582) father of:
Duke Ernst-August of Hannover (b.1629) father of:
King George I of Great Britain (b.1660 d. 1727) from whom the
subsequent British royal family descends.
Dear Newsgroup ~
The historian, Mary Anne Everett Green, presents an interesting and
well researched biography of King John's daughter, Isabel of England,
in her book, Lives of the Princesses of England, 2 (1857): 1-48. This
biography is available online at the following weblink:
http://books.google.com/books?id=7N4KAA ... over&dq=...
Isabel of England married in 1235 at Worms to Emperor Frederick II.
Green states that Isabel gave birth to four children in all, which are
listed below. The online database, www.mittelalter-genealogie.de,
however, only lists two children for Isabel, namely Heinrich and
Margaretha. Other sources list still other children, including a son,
Friedrich. The only thing on which modern sources seem to agree is
that only two children that survived Isabel and Frederick, namely one
son, Heinrich, born in 1238, and one daughter, Margaretha.
Here is the list of Isabel of England's children as provided by Mary
Anne Everett Green, with her sources noted:
1. Jordan (son), born at Ravenna in early 1236; died as an infant the
same year. Green, Lives of the Princesses of England 2 (1857): 30,
footnote 2 (citing Agostino Inveges Annali della felice Città di
Palermo (1649): 588; Rocchus Pirrus Chronologia Regum Siciliæ
Graevius, vol. v., col. 48; Raumer Geschichte der Hohenstaufen, vol.
iii., p. 703, note).
Note: Another source agrees with Green regarding the existence of this
child is Gregorovius, History of the City of Rome in the Middle Ages
5(1) (1906): 273, footnote 2.
2. Agnes (daughter), born in Feb. 1237. She died soon afterwards.
Green Lives of the Princesses of England 2 (1857): 34, footnote 1
(citing Agostino Inveges Annali della felice Città di Palermo (1649):
589; Epistolæ Petri de Vincis, book iii., No. 71; Rocchus Pirrus
Chronologia Regum SiciliæGraevius, vol. v., col. 48).
3. Heinrich, born 18 Feb. 1238. He was appointed Regent of Sicily
during his father's absence in Italy. He was a legatee in the 1250
will of his father, who bequeathed him either the kingdom of Arles or
Jerusalem, as his older half-brother, Conrad, might prefer. Henry
died in Dec. 1253-Jan. 1254. Green, Lives of the Princesses of
England 2 (1857): 34, footnotes 4, 5 (citing Paris, vol. ii., p. 455;
Epistolæ Petri de Vincis Letters, book iii., No. 70; Rocchus Pirrus
Chronologia Regum Siciliæ Graevius, vol. v., col. 48), 46, footnote 2.
For additional references for Heinrich, see: Kingston, History of
Frederick the Second, Emperor of the Romans 1 (1862): 477; 2 (1862):
62, 438, 471, 501, 505-507; Gregorovius, History of the City of Rome
in the Middle Ages 5(1) (1906): 273.
4. Margaretha (daughter), born at Foggia 1 Dec 1241. She married in
1254/5 (by contract dated 1245) (as his 1st wife) Albrecht II,
Margrave of Meissen, Landgrave of Thüringia. She died at Frankfurt 8
August 1270, and was buried in Frankfurt. Green, Lives of the
Princesses of England 2 (1857): 46, footnote 3 (citing Tentzel vita
Fred. II.; Menckenius Rer. Germ. Script. Ant., vol. ii., col. 897),
46, footnote 4 (citing "The 16th letter in the 5th book of De Vinea's
Epistles" for the marriage of Margaretha and Albrecht).
For additional references for Margaretha, see: Pertz, Annales aevi
Suevici (Monumenta Germaniæ Historica, Scriptores 16) (1859): 44
(Annales Veterocellenses sub A.D. 1270: "Margareta nobilis domina
lantgravia Thuringie, filia Friderici imperatoris, fugit die sancti
Iohannis baptiste; obiitque 6. Idus Augusti [8 August] eodem
anno.");Kingston, History of Frederick the Second, Emperor of the
Romans 1 (1862): 477; 2 (1862): 62, 347, 426-427. Online resources:
http://www.mittelalter-genealogie.de/mi ... ser_frie...
http:// genealogy.euweb.cz/wettin/wettin2.html#AD.
+ + + + + + + + + + + + +
Further comments:
The historian Kingston cited above, 2 (1962): 426 states that
Margaretha, daughter of Emperor Frederick II and Isabel, was first
betrothed to the nephew of the deceased Thuringian king. "After the
death of her intended bridegroom, she had been sent to the margrave of
Meissen, one of the richest Princes in Germany owing to his silver
mines, to be to married his son Albert, who was then but four years
old." This information may be found at the following weblink:
http://books.google.com/books?id=E2Ypo2 ... over&dq=...
While this may all be true, if so, Margaretha can not have been born
in 1241 as claimed by Green. This is proven by the published Annales
Sancti Pantaleonis Coloniensis which records that Hermann, Landgrave
of Thüringia, repudiated an unnamed daughter of Emperor Frrederick II
sometime before his death in 1241 [Reference: Pertz, Historici
Germaniae saec. XII. (Monumenta Germaniæ Historica, Scriptores 22)
(1872): 536 (Annales Sancti Pantaleonis Coloniensis sub A.D. 1241:
"Ipso anno Hermannus landgravius filius sancte Elysabeth, obiit, qui,
repudiata filia imperatoris sibi desponsata, filia ducis de Brunswich
duxerat n uxorem."). Assuming that Kingston is correct that Hermann
was contracted to marry Margaretha, she can not have been born in
1241, as Hermann died in that year, he already having married someone
else. However, since Hermann's contracted spouse is not named in the
record, it is possible that his contracted spouse who was actually
Margaretha's older sister, Agnes, assuming Agnes really existed as
stated by Green. Quite possibly, the correct solution is that the
female child born in 1237 was actually Margaretha, and that Agnes does
not exist.
When replying, please cite your sources if you have any, and provide
your weblinks. Thank you.
Best always, Douglas Richardson, Salt Lake City, Utah
'Genealogics' gives "about Feb 1237" as the date of Margaretha's birth
while Wikipedia gives "1 Dec 1241". As a daughter of Emperor Frederick
II (Stupor Mundi) she was a Hohenstaufen princess. Here's a lineage
from Margaretha and her mother Princess Isabella to the present
British royal family:
King John of England ( d. 1216) father of:
Princess Isabella (b.1214) mother of:
Princess Margaretha von Hohenstaufen (b. 1237/1241) mother of:
Agnes von Meissen, mother of:
Duchess Mechtild of Brunswick, mother of"
Sophie von Werle, mother of:
Elisabeth von Pommern-Wolgast, mother of:
Duke Johann IV of Mecklenburg-Schwerin (b.1365) father of:
Duke Heinrich IV of Mecklenburg-Schwerin (b.1417) father of:
Duke Magnus II of Mecklenburg-Schwerin (b.1441) father of:
Duke Heinrich V of Mecklenburg-Schwerin (b.1479) father of:
Duchess Sophie (b.1508) mother of:
Duke Wilhelm of Brunswick-Luneburg (B.1535) father of:
Duke Georg of Brunswick-Luneburg (b.1582) father of:
Duke Ernst-August of Hannover (b.1629) father of:
King George I of Great Britain (b.1660 d. 1727) from whom the
subsequent British royal family descends.
-
Moe O'Connor
Re: Children of Isabel of England (died 1241), wife of Emper
On Jan 19, 11:23 pm, Tim <A.Windem...@gmail.com> wrote:
The Danish and Greek royal families also can be deduced from King John
of England and Holy Roman Emperor Frederick II Hohenstaufen, through
Princess Margaretha. Here's a lineage (compiled from 'Genealogics'):
King John of England, father of:
Princess Isabella, mother of:
Princess Margaretha von Hohenstaufen,mother of:
Margrave Friedrich I of Meissen (b.1257) father of:
Elisabeth of Meissen (b. 1306) mother of:
Duchess Elisabeth von Hessen (b.1390) mother of:
Duke Otto of Brunswick-Gottingen (b. circa 1340) father of:
Duchess Elisabeth (b.1387) mother of:
Duke Albrecht III of Brunswick-Grubenhagen (b.1419) father of:
Duke Philipp I of Brunswick-Grubenhagen (b.1476) father of:
Duke Ernst of Brunswick-Grubenhagen (b.1518) father of:
Duchess Elisabeth of Brunswick-Grubenhagen (b.1550) mother of:
Duke Alexander of Holstein-Sonderburg (b.1573) father of:
Duke August Philipp of Holstein-Sonderburg-Beck (b.1612) father of:
Duke Friedrich Ludwig of Holstein-Sonderburg-Beck (b.1653) father of:
Duke Peter August of Holstein-Sonderburg-Beck (b.1696) father of:
Prinz Carl Anton of Holstein-Sonderburg-Beck (b.1727) father of:
Duke Friedrich Carl of Holstein-Sonderburg-Beck (b.1757) father of:
Duke Friedrich Wilhelm of Schleswig-Holstein-Sonderburg-Glucksburg (b.
1785) father of:
King Christian IX of Denmark (b.1818) father of:
King George I of Greece (b.1845) father of:
Prince Andrea of Greece (b.1882) father of:
Prince Philip, Duke of Edinburgh (b.1921)
On Jan 19, 5:52 pm, Douglas Richardson <royalances...@msn.com> wrote:
Dear Newsgroup ~
The historian, Mary Anne Everett Green, presents an interesting and
well researched biography of King John's daughter, Isabel of England,
in her book, Lives of the Princesses of England, 2 (1857): 1-48. This
biography is available online at the following weblink:
http://books.google.com/books?id=7N4KAA ... over&dq=...
Isabel of England married in 1235 at Worms to Emperor Frederick II.
Green states that Isabel gave birth to four children in all, which are
listed below. The online database, www.mittelalter-genealogie.de,
however, only lists two children for Isabel, namely Heinrich and
Margaretha. Other sources list still other children, including a son,
Friedrich. The only thing on which modern sources seem to agree is
that only two children that survived Isabel and Frederick, namely one
son, Heinrich, born in 1238, and one daughter, Margaretha.
Here is the list of Isabel of England's children as provided by Mary
Anne Everett Green, with her sources noted:
1. Jordan (son), born at Ravenna in early 1236; died as an infant the
same year. Green, Lives of the Princesses of England 2 (1857): 30,
footnote 2 (citing Agostino Inveges Annali della felice Città di
Palermo (1649): 588; Rocchus Pirrus Chronologia Regum Siciliæ
Graevius, vol. v., col. 48; Raumer Geschichte der Hohenstaufen, vol.
iii., p. 703, note).
Note: Another source agrees with Green regarding the existence of this
child is Gregorovius, History of the City of Rome in the Middle Ages
5(1) (1906): 273, footnote 2.
2. Agnes (daughter), born in Feb. 1237. She died soon afterwards.
Green Lives of the Princesses of England 2 (1857): 34, footnote 1
(citing Agostino Inveges Annali della felice Città di Palermo (1649):
589; Epistolæ Petri de Vincis, book iii., No. 71; Rocchus Pirrus
Chronologia Regum SiciliæGraevius, vol. v., col. 48).
3. Heinrich, born 18 Feb. 1238. He was appointed Regent of Sicily
during his father's absence in Italy. He was a legatee in the 1250
will of his father, who bequeathed him either the kingdom of Arles or
Jerusalem, as his older half-brother, Conrad, might prefer. Henry
died in Dec. 1253-Jan. 1254. Green, Lives of the Princesses of
England 2 (1857): 34, footnotes 4, 5 (citing Paris, vol. ii., p. 455;
Epistolæ Petri de Vincis Letters, book iii., No. 70; Rocchus Pirrus
Chronologia Regum Siciliæ Graevius, vol. v., col. 48), 46, footnote 2.
For additional references for Heinrich, see: Kingston, History of
Frederick the Second, Emperor of the Romans 1 (1862): 477; 2 (1862):
62, 438, 471, 501, 505-507; Gregorovius, History of the City of Rome
in the Middle Ages 5(1) (1906): 273.
4. Margaretha (daughter), born at Foggia 1 Dec 1241. She married in
1254/5 (by contract dated 1245) (as his 1st wife) Albrecht II,
Margrave of Meissen, Landgrave of Thüringia. She died at Frankfurt 8
August 1270, and was buried in Frankfurt. Green, Lives of the
Princesses of England 2 (1857): 46, footnote 3 (citing Tentzel vita
Fred. II.; Menckenius Rer. Germ. Script. Ant., vol. ii., col. 897),
46, footnote 4 (citing "The 16th letter in the 5th book of De Vinea's
Epistles" for the marriage of Margaretha and Albrecht).
For additional references for Margaretha, see: Pertz, Annales aevi
Suevici (Monumenta Germaniæ Historica, Scriptores 16) (1859): 44
(Annales Veterocellenses sub A.D. 1270: "Margareta nobilis domina
lantgravia Thuringie, filia Friderici imperatoris, fugit die sancti
Iohannis baptiste; obiitque 6. Idus Augusti [8 August] eodem
anno.");Kingston, History of Frederick the Second, Emperor of the
Romans 1 (1862): 477; 2 (1862): 62, 347, 426-427. Online resources:
http://www.mittelalter-genealogie.de/mi ... kais.......
http:// genealogy.euweb.cz/wettin/wettin2.html#AD.
+ + + + + + + + + + + + +
Further comments:
The historian Kingston cited above, 2 (1962): 426 states that
Margaretha, daughter of Emperor Frederick II and Isabel, was first
betrothed to the nephew of the deceased Thuringian king. "After the
death of her intended bridegroom, she had been sent to the margrave of
Meissen, one of the richest Princes in Germany owing to his silver
mines, to be to married his son Albert, who was then but four years
old." This information may be found at the following weblink:
http://books.google.com/books?id=E2Ypo2 ... over&dq=...
While this may all be true, if so, Margaretha can not have been born
in 1241 as claimed by Green. This is proven by the published Annales
Sancti Pantaleonis Coloniensis which records that Hermann, Landgrave
of Thüringia, repudiated an unnamed daughter of Emperor Frrederick II
sometime before his death in 1241 [Reference: Pertz, Historici
Germaniae saec. XII. (Monumenta Germaniæ Historica, Scriptores 22)
(1872): 536 (Annales Sancti Pantaleonis Coloniensis sub A.D. 1241:
"Ipso anno Hermannus landgravius filius sancte Elysabeth, obiit, qui,
repudiata filia imperatoris sibi desponsata, filia ducis de Brunswich
duxerat n uxorem."). Assuming that Kingston is correct that Hermann
was contracted to marry Margaretha, she can not have been born in
1241, as Hermann died in that year, he already having married someone
else. However, since Hermann's contracted spouse is not named in the
record, it is possible that his contracted spouse who was actually
Margaretha's older sister, Agnes, assuming Agnes really existed as
stated by Green. Quite possibly, the correct solution is that the
female child born in 1237 was actually Margaretha, and that Agnes does
not exist.
When replying, please cite your sources if you have any, and provide
your weblinks. Thank you.
Best always, Douglas Richardson, Salt Lake City, Utah
'Genealogics' gives "about Feb 1237" as the date of Margaretha's birth
while Wikipedia gives "1 Dec 1241". As a daughter of Emperor Frederick
II (Stupor Mundi) she was a Hohenstaufen princess. Here's a lineage
from Margaretha and her mother Princess Isabella to the present
British royal family:
King John of England ( d. 1216) father of:
Princess Isabella (b.1214) mother of:
Princess Margaretha von Hohenstaufen (b. 1237/1241) mother of:
Agnes von Meissen, mother of:
Duchess Mechtild of Brunswick, mother of"
Sophie von Werle, mother of:
Elisabeth von Pommern-Wolgast, mother of:
Duke Johann IV of Mecklenburg-Schwerin (b.1365) father of:
Duke Heinrich IV of Mecklenburg-Schwerin (b.1417) father of:
Duke Magnus II of Mecklenburg-Schwerin (b.1441) father of:
Duke Heinrich V of Mecklenburg-Schwerin (b.1479) father of:
Duchess Sophie (b.1508) mother of:
Duke Wilhelm of Brunswick-Luneburg (B.1535) father of:
Duke Georg of Brunswick-Luneburg (b.1582) father of:
Duke Ernst-August of Hannover (b.1629) father of:
King George I of Great Britain (b.1660 d. 1727) from whom the
subsequent British royal family descends.- Hide quoted text -
- Show quoted text -
The Danish and Greek royal families also can be deduced from King John
of England and Holy Roman Emperor Frederick II Hohenstaufen, through
Princess Margaretha. Here's a lineage (compiled from 'Genealogics'):
King John of England, father of:
Princess Isabella, mother of:
Princess Margaretha von Hohenstaufen,mother of:
Margrave Friedrich I of Meissen (b.1257) father of:
Elisabeth of Meissen (b. 1306) mother of:
Duchess Elisabeth von Hessen (b.1390) mother of:
Duke Otto of Brunswick-Gottingen (b. circa 1340) father of:
Duchess Elisabeth (b.1387) mother of:
Duke Albrecht III of Brunswick-Grubenhagen (b.1419) father of:
Duke Philipp I of Brunswick-Grubenhagen (b.1476) father of:
Duke Ernst of Brunswick-Grubenhagen (b.1518) father of:
Duchess Elisabeth of Brunswick-Grubenhagen (b.1550) mother of:
Duke Alexander of Holstein-Sonderburg (b.1573) father of:
Duke August Philipp of Holstein-Sonderburg-Beck (b.1612) father of:
Duke Friedrich Ludwig of Holstein-Sonderburg-Beck (b.1653) father of:
Duke Peter August of Holstein-Sonderburg-Beck (b.1696) father of:
Prinz Carl Anton of Holstein-Sonderburg-Beck (b.1727) father of:
Duke Friedrich Carl of Holstein-Sonderburg-Beck (b.1757) father of:
Duke Friedrich Wilhelm of Schleswig-Holstein-Sonderburg-Glucksburg (b.
1785) father of:
King Christian IX of Denmark (b.1818) father of:
King George I of Greece (b.1845) father of:
Prince Andrea of Greece (b.1882) father of:
Prince Philip, Duke of Edinburgh (b.1921)
-
Douglas Richardson
Re: Children of Isabel of England (died 1241), wife of Emper
Dear Newsgroup ~
As a followup to my post yesterday, I've located several additional
records which shed light on the names, births, and marriages of the
children of Isabel of England and Emperor Friedrich (or Frederick) II.
First, there are two records which have survived which concern the
number of children which survived Isabel of England, which I have
abstracted below:
1. In this first record, it is stated that Isabel of England was
survived by a son and a daughter, neither of which is named.
Waitz, Annales aevi Suevici (Supplementa tomorum XVI et XVII). Gesta
saec. XII. XIII. (Supplementa tomorum XX-XXIII) (Monumenta Germaniæ
Historica, Scriptores 24) (1879): 219 (Chronica Pontificum et
Imperatorum Mantuana: "[Emperor Friedrich II] "Prima eius uxor domina
Constantia, filia regis Aragonum, fuit; ex qua genuit regem Henricum.
Qua defuncta, conscilio domini pape Honorii et cardinalium dominam
Ysabellam, filiam Iohannis regis Ierosolimitani, una cum eodem regno
accepit; de qua Conradum, qui rex Romanorum electus fuit et heres
Ierusalem, genuit. Qua etiam defuncta, alteram dominam Ysabellam,
filiam regis Anglie, accepit; de qua filium et filiam suscepit.").
The above item and the other Monumenta Germaniæ Historica series cited
below may all be viewed at the following weblink:
http://www.dmgh.de/
2. In this second record, it is stated that Emperor Friedrich II had
several sons and a daughter, Margaret. In the previous record, the
only legitimate daughter that Emperor Friedrich II had was assigned to
his third wife, Isabel of England. Thus we may presume that Margaret
was the daughter of Isabel of England.
Waitz, Gesta saec. XIII. (Monumenta Germaniæ Historica, Scriptores 25)
(1880): 134 (Gesta Episcoporum Leodiensium Abbreviata: "Anno Domini
1235. imperator ducit filiam regis Anglie et magnam curiam in
Wormatia tenet"), 700 (Sifridi de Balnhusin Compendium Historiarum:
"[Friedrich II]--Ipse plures filios habuit, quos reges constituit super
diversa regna, videlicet Conradum, Meinfridum et alios, et filiam
Margaretam, de quibus dicetur infra.").
3. In this third record, it is specifically stated that Isabel of
England died leaving three children.
Pertz, Chronica aevi Suevici (Monumenta Germaniæ Historica, Scriptores
23) (1874): 949 (sub A.D. 1241: "Comes Richardus reversus est, cuius
soror imperatrix paulo post mortua est, tribus, ut dicitur, liberis
relictis.").
4. That Isabel of England had living descendants in 1260 is proven by
the following item taken from English records. This record also
confirms that Isabel of England, wife of Emperor Friedrich II, was
senior in age to her sister, Eleanor of England, wife of Earl Simon de
Montfort, which fact Green established back in 1857.
Document dated July 1260. Trial of Simon de Montfort.
"The king [of England] says that the king of France did not demand any
renunciation from the king's daughters nor from the second son of the
king of Germany, nor from the heirs of the empress, the elder sister
of the countess [i.e., Countess Eleanor de Montfort]." [Reference:
Treharne & Sanders, Documents of the Baronial Movement of Reform and
Rebellion, 1258-1267 (Oxford Medieval Texts) (1973): 195].
This item may be viewed at the following weblink:
http://books.google.com/books?id=wip9Rn ... N_-We6E3oY
5. That Isabel of England had a son named Heinrich is confirmed by the
following two records. The first item records Heinrich's birth in
Feb. 1236. Thus, it would appear that Heinrich is the first child of
Isabel born in February 1236, which child Green mistakenly called
Jordan. Most sources state that Heinrich was born in Feb. 1238. That
date would also appear to be an error (although see my comment further
below).
Pertz, Annales aevi Suevici (Monumenta Germaniæ Historica, Scriptores
19) (1866): 497 (Annales Siculi sub A.D. 1236: "undecime indicionis
mense Februarii natus fuit rex Heinricus filius domni imperatoris de
uxore sua tercia, quae fuit soror regis Angliae."), 498 (Annales
Siculi sub A.D. 1250: "Domnus Heinricus rex, filius domni imperatoris
procreatus de uxore Angliae, decimo nono die mensis Ianuarii dictae
nonae indicionis applicuit Messanum, et cum magno gaudio fuit ibi
receptus.").
6. That Isabel of England had a female child born in Feb. 1237 as
stated by Green is indicated by the following item. The name of this
child is not given in the record.
Pertz, Annales aevi Suevici (Monumenta Germaniæ Historica, Scriptores
19) (1866): 374 (Ryccardus de S. Germano sub A.D. 1237: "Mense
Februarii littere imperialis lecte sunt in Sancto Germano de captione
Vincentie, et de nova imperatoris prole feminea de nova consorte
suscepta.").
7. That Emperor Friedrich II had a daughter betrothed to Hermann,
Landgrave of Thüringia, in 1238 is proven by the following two
records. The first item records the betrothal of the daughter in
1238. The second item records her repudiation by Hermann before
Hermann's death in 1241.
Pertz, Annales aevi Suevici (Monumenta Germaniæ Historica, Scriptores
16) (1859): 32 (Annales Erphordenses sub A.D. 1238: "dein filiam suam
Hermanno lantgravio per manum Maguntini episcope in Aschaffenburg
desponsavit.").
Pertz, Historici Germaniae saec. XII. (Monumenta Germaniæ Historica,
Scriptores 22) (1872): 536 (Annales Sancti Pantaleonis Coloniensis sub
A.D. 1241: "Ipso anno Hermannus landgravius filius sancte Elysabeth,
obiit, qui, repudiata filia imperatoris sibi desponsata, filia ducis
de Brunswich duxerat n uxorem.").
8. The daughter contracted to marry Hermann, Landgrave of Thüringia,
is identified as the Emperor's daughter Margaretha in the secondary
source cited below. This source also states that Margaretha was aged
two at the time of the betrothal, which age is clearly in error.
Böhmer, Regesta archiepiscoporum Maguntinensium. Regesten zur
Geschichte der Mainzer Erzbischöfe 2 (1883): 251.
This may be veiwed at the following weblink:
http://books.google.com/books?id=Hj0OAA ... wird%22&lr
The Encyclopædia Britannica 13 (1910): 279-280 (biog. of Henry Raspe)
likewise states that Margaretha, daughter of Emperor Frederick II, was
bethrothed c.1238 to Hermann, nominally Landgrave of Thuringia, which
espousal was broken off c.1239).
This may be viewed at the following weblink:
http://books.google.com/books?id=KGcEAA ... EfEgLNE1Og
9. Margaretha, daughter of Emperor Friedrich II, is known to have
eventually married Albrecht, Margrave of Meissen, Landgrave of
Thüringia. This is proven by several records as shown below which
record her marriage and death:
Waitz, Annales aevi Suevici (Supplementa tomorum XVI et XVII). Gesta
saec. XII. XIII. (Supplementa tomorum XX-XXIII) (Monumenta Germaniæ
Historica, Scriptores 24) (1879): 213 (Chronica Minor. Continuatio VI.
sub A.D. 1270: "Margaretha, filia Friderici imperatoris, uxor
langravii Alberti, nocte furtive recessit de Varberch cum paucis, et
eodem anno in Franchkenfurt mortua est et sepulta.").
Waitz, Gesta saec. XIII. (Monumenta Germaniæ Historica, Scriptores 25)
(1880): 703 (Sifridi de Balnhusin Compendium Historiarum : "De
marchione Heinrico. Hoc tempore marchio Misnensis Heinricus,
[cognatus landgravii Thuringorum Ludewici et fratrum suorum], cum
haberet duos filios Adelbertum et Dythericum, quos genuerat ei nobilis
et inclita princeps [Constantia], filia ducis Austrie, cum magna pompa
et fastu venit ad curiam imperatoris Friderici, petens filiam ipsius
cesaris Margaretam dari filio suo in uxorem. Tandem adepta filia
imperatoris, tradidit eam Adelberto, filio suo, in uxorem, quem
procedente tempore landgravium constituit Thuringorum. Hec genuit
dicto Adelberto tres filios, Heinricum, Fridericum, Diethericum."),
706 (Sifridi de Balnhusin Compendium Historiarum sub A.D. 1270: "Eodem
anno inclita et nobilissima princeps Margareta, filia imperatoris
Friderici, Thuringie landgravia, cum multas contumelias et etiam
comminationes mortis a marito suo landgravio Adelberto indigne
pertulisset, tandem existens in castro Wartberg, suffragio cuiusdam
militis per murum in sporta de altissima rupe eiusdem montis castri
dimissa, cum duabus tantum pedissequis et duobus camerariis fugam
iniit. Ipsa namque inter ceteras pedissequas suas unam habuit que
Kunegundis de Ysinberg vocabatur, quam ipse landgravius amans et cum
ea frequenter adulterans, filiam cesaris exosam habuit et despectam.
Abbas autem Fuldensis dictam filiam imperatoris fugientem usque
Franconevord deduci fecit; ubi a civibus honorifice suscepta et
pertractata, ibidem defuncta est eodem anno et honore regio tumulata
per archiepiscopum Moguntinum.").
Pertz, Annales aevi Suevici (Monumenta Germaniæ Historica, Scriptores
16) (1859): 44 (Annales Veterocellenses sub A.D. 1270: "Margareta
nobilis domina lantgravia Thuringie, filia Friderici imperatoris,
fugit die sancti Iohannis baptiste; obiitque 6. Idus Augusti [8
August] eodem anno.").
Waitz, Annales aevi Suevici (Supplementa tomorum XVI et XVII). Gesta
saec. XII. XIII. (Supplementa tomorum XX-XXIII) (Monumenta Germaniæ
Historica, Scriptores 24) (1879): 208 (Chronica Minor. Continuatio I.
sub A.D. 1270: "Item inclita Thuringie lantgravia Margareta, filia
Friderici imperatoris, feliciter obiit in Franckenfort.").
10. Two of the sons of Margaret, wife of Albrecht, Margrave of
Meissen, Landgrave of Thüringia are mentioned in the record below,
which sons are called grandsons of Emperor Friedrich II:
Waitz, Gesta saec. XIII. (Monumenta Germaniæ Historica, Scriptores 25)
(1880): 713 (Sifridi de Balnhusin Compendium Historiarum: "Et tunc
marchio Fridericus et Th[eodericus], germanus suus, filii landgravii
Thuringorum Adelberti, nepotes imperatoris Friderici ex filia sua
Margareta, de iam dictis terris progenitorum suorum eliminati sunt.").
In summary, I find that the records of this period indicate that
Isabel of England had three children, namely: (1) Heinrich, born in
February 1236, who died unmarried in Dec. 1253-Jan. 1254, (2) a female
child (presumably Margaretha), born in Feb. 1237, and (3) an unnnamed
child, born in Dec. 1241, who appears to have died young.
As for the 1236 birthdate of Heinrich, I find that his birthdate is
usually given in modern sources as 18 Feb. 1238. Further research may
show that this is the correct birthdate. If so, then Margaretha would
evidently be the first child born in 1237, then Heinrich in 1238, and
the third unnnamed child in 1241. I find no evidence of any son named
Jordan, Carlotus, or Friedrich, or of any daughter named Agnes.
Whatever the case, Margaretha is the only child who survived to
adulthood, married, and left issue.
Of Isabel of England's three children, only one of them, Henry, is
named in the 1250 will of of his father, Emperor Friedrich II.
Magaretha was presumably not named as she had already been contracted
to marry Albrecht of Meissen.
Best always, Douglas Richardson, Salt Lake City, Utah
As a followup to my post yesterday, I've located several additional
records which shed light on the names, births, and marriages of the
children of Isabel of England and Emperor Friedrich (or Frederick) II.
First, there are two records which have survived which concern the
number of children which survived Isabel of England, which I have
abstracted below:
1. In this first record, it is stated that Isabel of England was
survived by a son and a daughter, neither of which is named.
Waitz, Annales aevi Suevici (Supplementa tomorum XVI et XVII). Gesta
saec. XII. XIII. (Supplementa tomorum XX-XXIII) (Monumenta Germaniæ
Historica, Scriptores 24) (1879): 219 (Chronica Pontificum et
Imperatorum Mantuana: "[Emperor Friedrich II] "Prima eius uxor domina
Constantia, filia regis Aragonum, fuit; ex qua genuit regem Henricum.
Qua defuncta, conscilio domini pape Honorii et cardinalium dominam
Ysabellam, filiam Iohannis regis Ierosolimitani, una cum eodem regno
accepit; de qua Conradum, qui rex Romanorum electus fuit et heres
Ierusalem, genuit. Qua etiam defuncta, alteram dominam Ysabellam,
filiam regis Anglie, accepit; de qua filium et filiam suscepit.").
The above item and the other Monumenta Germaniæ Historica series cited
below may all be viewed at the following weblink:
http://www.dmgh.de/
2. In this second record, it is stated that Emperor Friedrich II had
several sons and a daughter, Margaret. In the previous record, the
only legitimate daughter that Emperor Friedrich II had was assigned to
his third wife, Isabel of England. Thus we may presume that Margaret
was the daughter of Isabel of England.
Waitz, Gesta saec. XIII. (Monumenta Germaniæ Historica, Scriptores 25)
(1880): 134 (Gesta Episcoporum Leodiensium Abbreviata: "Anno Domini
1235. imperator ducit filiam regis Anglie et magnam curiam in
Wormatia tenet"), 700 (Sifridi de Balnhusin Compendium Historiarum:
"[Friedrich II]--Ipse plures filios habuit, quos reges constituit super
diversa regna, videlicet Conradum, Meinfridum et alios, et filiam
Margaretam, de quibus dicetur infra.").
3. In this third record, it is specifically stated that Isabel of
England died leaving three children.
Pertz, Chronica aevi Suevici (Monumenta Germaniæ Historica, Scriptores
23) (1874): 949 (sub A.D. 1241: "Comes Richardus reversus est, cuius
soror imperatrix paulo post mortua est, tribus, ut dicitur, liberis
relictis.").
4. That Isabel of England had living descendants in 1260 is proven by
the following item taken from English records. This record also
confirms that Isabel of England, wife of Emperor Friedrich II, was
senior in age to her sister, Eleanor of England, wife of Earl Simon de
Montfort, which fact Green established back in 1857.
Document dated July 1260. Trial of Simon de Montfort.
"The king [of England] says that the king of France did not demand any
renunciation from the king's daughters nor from the second son of the
king of Germany, nor from the heirs of the empress, the elder sister
of the countess [i.e., Countess Eleanor de Montfort]." [Reference:
Treharne & Sanders, Documents of the Baronial Movement of Reform and
Rebellion, 1258-1267 (Oxford Medieval Texts) (1973): 195].
This item may be viewed at the following weblink:
http://books.google.com/books?id=wip9Rn ... N_-We6E3oY
5. That Isabel of England had a son named Heinrich is confirmed by the
following two records. The first item records Heinrich's birth in
Feb. 1236. Thus, it would appear that Heinrich is the first child of
Isabel born in February 1236, which child Green mistakenly called
Jordan. Most sources state that Heinrich was born in Feb. 1238. That
date would also appear to be an error (although see my comment further
below).
Pertz, Annales aevi Suevici (Monumenta Germaniæ Historica, Scriptores
19) (1866): 497 (Annales Siculi sub A.D. 1236: "undecime indicionis
mense Februarii natus fuit rex Heinricus filius domni imperatoris de
uxore sua tercia, quae fuit soror regis Angliae."), 498 (Annales
Siculi sub A.D. 1250: "Domnus Heinricus rex, filius domni imperatoris
procreatus de uxore Angliae, decimo nono die mensis Ianuarii dictae
nonae indicionis applicuit Messanum, et cum magno gaudio fuit ibi
receptus.").
6. That Isabel of England had a female child born in Feb. 1237 as
stated by Green is indicated by the following item. The name of this
child is not given in the record.
Pertz, Annales aevi Suevici (Monumenta Germaniæ Historica, Scriptores
19) (1866): 374 (Ryccardus de S. Germano sub A.D. 1237: "Mense
Februarii littere imperialis lecte sunt in Sancto Germano de captione
Vincentie, et de nova imperatoris prole feminea de nova consorte
suscepta.").
7. That Emperor Friedrich II had a daughter betrothed to Hermann,
Landgrave of Thüringia, in 1238 is proven by the following two
records. The first item records the betrothal of the daughter in
1238. The second item records her repudiation by Hermann before
Hermann's death in 1241.
Pertz, Annales aevi Suevici (Monumenta Germaniæ Historica, Scriptores
16) (1859): 32 (Annales Erphordenses sub A.D. 1238: "dein filiam suam
Hermanno lantgravio per manum Maguntini episcope in Aschaffenburg
desponsavit.").
Pertz, Historici Germaniae saec. XII. (Monumenta Germaniæ Historica,
Scriptores 22) (1872): 536 (Annales Sancti Pantaleonis Coloniensis sub
A.D. 1241: "Ipso anno Hermannus landgravius filius sancte Elysabeth,
obiit, qui, repudiata filia imperatoris sibi desponsata, filia ducis
de Brunswich duxerat n uxorem.").
8. The daughter contracted to marry Hermann, Landgrave of Thüringia,
is identified as the Emperor's daughter Margaretha in the secondary
source cited below. This source also states that Margaretha was aged
two at the time of the betrothal, which age is clearly in error.
Böhmer, Regesta archiepiscoporum Maguntinensium. Regesten zur
Geschichte der Mainzer Erzbischöfe 2 (1883): 251.
This may be veiwed at the following weblink:
http://books.google.com/books?id=Hj0OAA ... wird%22&lr
The Encyclopædia Britannica 13 (1910): 279-280 (biog. of Henry Raspe)
likewise states that Margaretha, daughter of Emperor Frederick II, was
bethrothed c.1238 to Hermann, nominally Landgrave of Thuringia, which
espousal was broken off c.1239).
This may be viewed at the following weblink:
http://books.google.com/books?id=KGcEAA ... EfEgLNE1Og
9. Margaretha, daughter of Emperor Friedrich II, is known to have
eventually married Albrecht, Margrave of Meissen, Landgrave of
Thüringia. This is proven by several records as shown below which
record her marriage and death:
Waitz, Annales aevi Suevici (Supplementa tomorum XVI et XVII). Gesta
saec. XII. XIII. (Supplementa tomorum XX-XXIII) (Monumenta Germaniæ
Historica, Scriptores 24) (1879): 213 (Chronica Minor. Continuatio VI.
sub A.D. 1270: "Margaretha, filia Friderici imperatoris, uxor
langravii Alberti, nocte furtive recessit de Varberch cum paucis, et
eodem anno in Franchkenfurt mortua est et sepulta.").
Waitz, Gesta saec. XIII. (Monumenta Germaniæ Historica, Scriptores 25)
(1880): 703 (Sifridi de Balnhusin Compendium Historiarum : "De
marchione Heinrico. Hoc tempore marchio Misnensis Heinricus,
[cognatus landgravii Thuringorum Ludewici et fratrum suorum], cum
haberet duos filios Adelbertum et Dythericum, quos genuerat ei nobilis
et inclita princeps [Constantia], filia ducis Austrie, cum magna pompa
et fastu venit ad curiam imperatoris Friderici, petens filiam ipsius
cesaris Margaretam dari filio suo in uxorem. Tandem adepta filia
imperatoris, tradidit eam Adelberto, filio suo, in uxorem, quem
procedente tempore landgravium constituit Thuringorum. Hec genuit
dicto Adelberto tres filios, Heinricum, Fridericum, Diethericum."),
706 (Sifridi de Balnhusin Compendium Historiarum sub A.D. 1270: "Eodem
anno inclita et nobilissima princeps Margareta, filia imperatoris
Friderici, Thuringie landgravia, cum multas contumelias et etiam
comminationes mortis a marito suo landgravio Adelberto indigne
pertulisset, tandem existens in castro Wartberg, suffragio cuiusdam
militis per murum in sporta de altissima rupe eiusdem montis castri
dimissa, cum duabus tantum pedissequis et duobus camerariis fugam
iniit. Ipsa namque inter ceteras pedissequas suas unam habuit que
Kunegundis de Ysinberg vocabatur, quam ipse landgravius amans et cum
ea frequenter adulterans, filiam cesaris exosam habuit et despectam.
Abbas autem Fuldensis dictam filiam imperatoris fugientem usque
Franconevord deduci fecit; ubi a civibus honorifice suscepta et
pertractata, ibidem defuncta est eodem anno et honore regio tumulata
per archiepiscopum Moguntinum.").
Pertz, Annales aevi Suevici (Monumenta Germaniæ Historica, Scriptores
16) (1859): 44 (Annales Veterocellenses sub A.D. 1270: "Margareta
nobilis domina lantgravia Thuringie, filia Friderici imperatoris,
fugit die sancti Iohannis baptiste; obiitque 6. Idus Augusti [8
August] eodem anno.").
Waitz, Annales aevi Suevici (Supplementa tomorum XVI et XVII). Gesta
saec. XII. XIII. (Supplementa tomorum XX-XXIII) (Monumenta Germaniæ
Historica, Scriptores 24) (1879): 208 (Chronica Minor. Continuatio I.
sub A.D. 1270: "Item inclita Thuringie lantgravia Margareta, filia
Friderici imperatoris, feliciter obiit in Franckenfort.").
10. Two of the sons of Margaret, wife of Albrecht, Margrave of
Meissen, Landgrave of Thüringia are mentioned in the record below,
which sons are called grandsons of Emperor Friedrich II:
Waitz, Gesta saec. XIII. (Monumenta Germaniæ Historica, Scriptores 25)
(1880): 713 (Sifridi de Balnhusin Compendium Historiarum: "Et tunc
marchio Fridericus et Th[eodericus], germanus suus, filii landgravii
Thuringorum Adelberti, nepotes imperatoris Friderici ex filia sua
Margareta, de iam dictis terris progenitorum suorum eliminati sunt.").
In summary, I find that the records of this period indicate that
Isabel of England had three children, namely: (1) Heinrich, born in
February 1236, who died unmarried in Dec. 1253-Jan. 1254, (2) a female
child (presumably Margaretha), born in Feb. 1237, and (3) an unnnamed
child, born in Dec. 1241, who appears to have died young.
As for the 1236 birthdate of Heinrich, I find that his birthdate is
usually given in modern sources as 18 Feb. 1238. Further research may
show that this is the correct birthdate. If so, then Margaretha would
evidently be the first child born in 1237, then Heinrich in 1238, and
the third unnnamed child in 1241. I find no evidence of any son named
Jordan, Carlotus, or Friedrich, or of any daughter named Agnes.
Whatever the case, Margaretha is the only child who survived to
adulthood, married, and left issue.
Of Isabel of England's three children, only one of them, Henry, is
named in the 1250 will of of his father, Emperor Friedrich II.
Magaretha was presumably not named as she had already been contracted
to marry Albrecht of Meissen.
Best always, Douglas Richardson, Salt Lake City, Utah
-
D. Spencer Hines
Re: Children Of Isabel Of England (Died 1241), Wife Of Emper
"Peter Stewart" <p_m_stewart@msn.com> wrote in message
news:84d2bb18-4d60-4b70-8f4a-28cc40fecfb0@v67g2000hse.googlegroups.com...
The first child of Frederick II by Isabel was a son born in Ravenna in
1136, [sic] and baptised with water from the Jordan so that he was named
Giordano. Your failure to find any record of this, while dreding [sic] up
some erroneous or otherwise unreliable sources only shows the extent
to which you are wasting your effort, as well as the time & patience
of several newsgroups (crosspostings once again removed).
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Hilarious!
That's a neat trick...
The child's purported father, Kaiser Friedrich II, was not even born until
1194.
Pogue Stewart tries to berate and excoriate Douglas Richardson and does
nothing more than make himself look like a fool and take an egregious
pratfall himself.
KAWHOMP!!!
Par for the course.
Peter is obviously still suffering from that hard knock his noodle took on
the cobblestone at Oxford, when he was riding on a motorcycle while drunk.
DSH
Lux et Veritas et Libertas
news:84d2bb18-4d60-4b70-8f4a-28cc40fecfb0@v67g2000hse.googlegroups.com...
The first child of Frederick II by Isabel was a son born in Ravenna in
1136, [sic] and baptised with water from the Jordan so that he was named
Giordano. Your failure to find any record of this, while dreding [sic] up
some erroneous or otherwise unreliable sources only shows the extent
to which you are wasting your effort, as well as the time & patience
of several newsgroups (crosspostings once again removed).
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Hilarious!
That's a neat trick...
The child's purported father, Kaiser Friedrich II, was not even born until
1194.
Pogue Stewart tries to berate and excoriate Douglas Richardson and does
nothing more than make himself look like a fool and take an egregious
pratfall himself.
KAWHOMP!!!
Par for the course.
Peter is obviously still suffering from that hard knock his noodle took on
the cobblestone at Oxford, when he was riding on a motorcycle while drunk.
DSH
Lux et Veritas et Libertas
-
Peter Stewart
Re: Children of Isabel of England (died 1241), wife of Emper
On Jan 21, 11:06 am, Peter Stewart <p_m_stew...@msn.com> wrote:
Make that 1236, of course. The child died in the same year.
Peter Stewart
On Jan 21, 10:14 am, Douglas Richardson <royalances...@msn.com> wrote:
chomp of monumentally time-wasting blather
I find no evidence of any son named
Jordan, Carlotus, or Friedrich, or of any daughter named Agnes.
Whatever the case, Margaretha is the only child who survived to
adulthood, married, and left issue.
There is no point whatever in trying (much less so incompetently) to
reinvent the wheel on the offspring of one of the most celebrated
indivuals of the entire medieval period, whose life has been studied
intensively for centuries - including the 20th and 21st, where your
research so dismally fails.
The first child of Frederick II by Isabel was a son born in Ravenna in
1136, and baptised with water from the Jordan so that he was named
Giordano.
Make that 1236, of course. The child died in the same year.
Peter Stewart
-
Peter Stewart
Re: Children of Isabel of England (died 1241), wife of Emper
On Jan 21, 10:14 am, Douglas Richardson <royalances...@msn.com> wrote:
<chomp of monumentally time-wasting blather>
There is no point whatever in trying (much less so incompetently) to
reinvent the wheel on the offspring of one of the most celebrated
indivuals of the entire medieval period, whose life has been studied
intensively for centuries - including the 20th and 21st, where your
research so dismally fails.
The first child of Frederick II by Isabel was a son born in Ravenna in
1136, and baptised with water from the Jordan so that he was named
Giordano. Your failure to find any record of this, while dreding up
some erroneous or otherwise unreliable sources only shows the extent
to which you are wasting your effort, as well as the time & patience
of several newsgroups (crosspostings once again removed).
Since you can't function without weblinks, here is one to show you
where you should have started...
http://books.google.com.au/books?id=6Bz ... =&as_brr=0
This bibliography by Carl Arnold Willemsen, MGH Hilfmittel 8 (1986)
ought to be available somewhere in SLC.
Good luck with your more purposeful research that may result from
consulting the work of a real professional.
Peter Stewart
<chomp of monumentally time-wasting blather>
I find no evidence of any son named
Jordan, Carlotus, or Friedrich, or of any daughter named Agnes.
Whatever the case, Margaretha is the only child who survived to
adulthood, married, and left issue.
There is no point whatever in trying (much less so incompetently) to
reinvent the wheel on the offspring of one of the most celebrated
indivuals of the entire medieval period, whose life has been studied
intensively for centuries - including the 20th and 21st, where your
research so dismally fails.
The first child of Frederick II by Isabel was a son born in Ravenna in
1136, and baptised with water from the Jordan so that he was named
Giordano. Your failure to find any record of this, while dreding up
some erroneous or otherwise unreliable sources only shows the extent
to which you are wasting your effort, as well as the time & patience
of several newsgroups (crosspostings once again removed).
Since you can't function without weblinks, here is one to show you
where you should have started...
http://books.google.com.au/books?id=6Bz ... =&as_brr=0
This bibliography by Carl Arnold Willemsen, MGH Hilfmittel 8 (1986)
ought to be available somewhere in SLC.
Good luck with your more purposeful research that may result from
consulting the work of a real professional.
Peter Stewart
-
Peter Stewart
Re: Children Of Isabel Of England (Died 1241), Wife Of Emper
[Stupid cross-postings removed]
A more intelligent reader, of course, can recognise obvious typos without
help (especially under a subject line giving a mid-13th century date), while
a more sane one would have read the correction I posted before - or rather
instead of - making a fool of himself in this way.
And an educated reader intent on picking up typos should have noted a third
one in my post:
The bibliography by Willemsen is Hilfsmittel 8 in the MGH series.
My sticking keyboard is due for replacement. Hines on the other hand will
not be able to replace his personality, that has a similar fault.
Peter Stewart
"D. Spencer Hines" <panther@excelsior.com> wrote in message
news:P1Skj.9$d85.243@eagle.america.net...
A more intelligent reader, of course, can recognise obvious typos without
help (especially under a subject line giving a mid-13th century date), while
a more sane one would have read the correction I posted before - or rather
instead of - making a fool of himself in this way.
And an educated reader intent on picking up typos should have noted a third
one in my post:
This bibliography by Carl Arnold Willemsen, MGH Hilfmittel [sic] 8 (1986)
ought to be available somewhere in SLC.
The bibliography by Willemsen is Hilfsmittel 8 in the MGH series.
My sticking keyboard is due for replacement. Hines on the other hand will
not be able to replace his personality, that has a similar fault.
Peter Stewart
"D. Spencer Hines" <panther@excelsior.com> wrote in message
news:P1Skj.9$d85.243@eagle.america.net...
"Peter Stewart" <p_m_stewart@msn.com> wrote in message
news:84d2bb18-4d60-4b70-8f4a-28cc40fecfb0@v67g2000hse.googlegroups.com...
The first child of Frederick II by Isabel was a son born in Ravenna in
1136, [sic] and baptised with water from the Jordan so that he was named
Giordano. Your failure to find any record of this, while dreding [sic] up
some erroneous or otherwise unreliable sources only shows the extent
to which you are wasting your effort, as well as the time & patience
of several newsgroups (crosspostings once again removed).
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Hilarious!
That's a neat trick...
The child's purported father, Kaiser Friedrich II, was not even born until
1194.
Pogue Stewart tries to berate and excoriate Douglas Richardson and does
nothing more than make himself look like a fool and take an egregious
pratfall himself.
KAWHOMP!!!
Par for the course.
Peter is obviously still suffering from that hard knock his noodle took on
the cobblestone at Oxford, when he was riding on a motorcycle while drunk.
DSH
Lux et Veritas et Libertas
-
Douglas Richardson
Re: Children of Isabel of England (died 1241), wife of Emper
Dear Newsgroup ~
There are at least two major biographies of Emperor Frederick II
(husband of Isabel of England) in print.
The first book is Frederick the Second, 1194-1250, by Kantorowicz,
published in 1957. This work was originally published in German, but
was translated into English and is now available in snippet view on
the internet. As far as I can tell, there is no mention of a son,
Jordan, in this work. However, Emperor Frederick and Isabel's
daughter, Margaret, is mentioned on page 573, as indicated by the
following snippet view of the index:
573.http://books.google.com/books?id=_p4fAA ... antorowicz
+Frederick+the+Second%2C+1194%E2%80%931250&q=Margaret&pgis=1#search
The second book is Friedrich II.: Sein Leben in zeitgenössischen
Berichten, by Heinisch, published in 1977. This work is written in
German. This work is not available here in Utah. Doing a search of
this book in snippet view, I find it mentions Jordan, son of Isabel of
England, on pages 233 and 243.
http://books.google.com/books?id=eEYbAA ... s=1#search
http://books.google.com/books?id=eEYbAA ... s=1#search
The index referes to him as the "angebl. Sohn" of Frederick II.
There is also a reference to Isabel of England's other son, Heinrich,
in this book:
http://books.google.com/books?lr=&id=eE ... s=1#search
This book doesn't appear to be available here in Utah. Although the
snipper view is limited, the author gives one source for the child,
Jordan, which source was not mentioned by Green, namely Antoninus von
Florenz. I believe this man is the same person called Antoninus de
Florentia elsewhere on the internet.
It is curious that there is such wide divergence in the published
literature regarding Emperor Frederick's children by Isabel of
England. Every source I have consulted so far conflicts with all the
other sources I have examined. Other than Green, I still have found
no reference that the female child born in Feb. 1237 was named Agnes.
However, if this child was truly named Agnes, she would appear to be
the one who was engaged to Hermann, Landgrave of Thuringia, not her
sister, Margaretha as claimed by at least three modern sources I have
checked. However, if these sources are right that Margaretha was the
one engaged to Hermann, then presumably she is the female child born
in Feb. 1237.
Regardless Green gave these sources for Agnes Hohenstafufen's birth:
Agostino Inveges, Annali della felice Città di Palermo (1649): 589;
Petri de Vincis Epistolæ, book iii., No. 71; Rocchus Pirrus,
Chronologia Regum SiciliæGraevius, vol. v., col. 48
I believe Petri de Vincis Epistolæ is actually Petrus de Vinea,
Epistolae.
Best always, Douglas Richardson, Salt Lake City, Utah
There are at least two major biographies of Emperor Frederick II
(husband of Isabel of England) in print.
The first book is Frederick the Second, 1194-1250, by Kantorowicz,
published in 1957. This work was originally published in German, but
was translated into English and is now available in snippet view on
the internet. As far as I can tell, there is no mention of a son,
Jordan, in this work. However, Emperor Frederick and Isabel's
daughter, Margaret, is mentioned on page 573, as indicated by the
following snippet view of the index:
573.http://books.google.com/books?id=_p4fAA ... antorowicz
+Frederick+the+Second%2C+1194%E2%80%931250&q=Margaret&pgis=1#search
The second book is Friedrich II.: Sein Leben in zeitgenössischen
Berichten, by Heinisch, published in 1977. This work is written in
German. This work is not available here in Utah. Doing a search of
this book in snippet view, I find it mentions Jordan, son of Isabel of
England, on pages 233 and 243.
http://books.google.com/books?id=eEYbAA ... s=1#search
http://books.google.com/books?id=eEYbAA ... s=1#search
The index referes to him as the "angebl. Sohn" of Frederick II.
There is also a reference to Isabel of England's other son, Heinrich,
in this book:
http://books.google.com/books?lr=&id=eE ... s=1#search
This book doesn't appear to be available here in Utah. Although the
snipper view is limited, the author gives one source for the child,
Jordan, which source was not mentioned by Green, namely Antoninus von
Florenz. I believe this man is the same person called Antoninus de
Florentia elsewhere on the internet.
It is curious that there is such wide divergence in the published
literature regarding Emperor Frederick's children by Isabel of
England. Every source I have consulted so far conflicts with all the
other sources I have examined. Other than Green, I still have found
no reference that the female child born in Feb. 1237 was named Agnes.
However, if this child was truly named Agnes, she would appear to be
the one who was engaged to Hermann, Landgrave of Thuringia, not her
sister, Margaretha as claimed by at least three modern sources I have
checked. However, if these sources are right that Margaretha was the
one engaged to Hermann, then presumably she is the female child born
in Feb. 1237.
Regardless Green gave these sources for Agnes Hohenstafufen's birth:
Agostino Inveges, Annali della felice Città di Palermo (1649): 589;
Petri de Vincis Epistolæ, book iii., No. 71; Rocchus Pirrus,
Chronologia Regum SiciliæGraevius, vol. v., col. 48
I believe Petri de Vincis Epistolæ is actually Petrus de Vinea,
Epistolae.
Best always, Douglas Richardson, Salt Lake City, Utah
-
Douglas Richardson
Re: Children of Isabel of England (died 1241), wife of Emper
Dear Newsgroup ~
I just checked a biography of Emperor Frederick II on the internet at
the following weblink:
http://www.amnesia.de/Friedrich_II._(HRR).htm
As far as I could tell, no mention was made of either Isabel of
England, or her children in this account, even though there was a list
provided of the children of Emperor Frederick II.
Be that as it may, the following sources were listed as the
bibliography for Emperor Frederick II.
* Klaus van Eickels: Friedrich II., in: Bernd Schneidmüller/Stefan
Weinfurter (Hrsg.): Die deutschen Herrscher des Mittelalters,
Historische Porträts von Heinrich I. bis Maximilian I., München 2003,
S. 293-314 und S. 585 (Bibliographie). Hervorragende Kurzbiographie.
Van Eickels hat ebenfalls ein Quellenband zu Friedrich II.
herausgegeben.
* Ernst Kantorowicz: Kaiser Friedrich II., 2. Bde., Stuttgart
1985-86 (Nachdruck der Ausgabe aus den 20er Jahren), Sehr
romantisierend, daher mit Vorsicht zu lesen. Dabei ist es jedoch in
einer wunderbaren Sprache verfasst. Der Autor, ein später emigrierter
Jude, stand dem Kreis Stefan Georges nahe.
* Wolfgang Stürner: Friedrich II. (Gestalten des Mittelalters und
der Renaissance), 2 Bde., Darmstadt 1992-2000. Beste und aktuellste
Biographie über Friedrich II. Dabei nüchtern und objektiv. Es finden
sich hier auch zahlreiche weitere Literaturangaben.
* Gunther Wolf (Hrsg).: Stupor mundi. Zur Geschichte Friedrichs
II. von Hohenstaufen (Wege der Forschung 101), 2. veränderte Aufl.,
Darmstadt 1982. Wichtige Sammlung von Aufsätzen zum Thema Friedrich
II.
German anyone?
Best always, Douglas Richardson, Salt Lake City, Utah
I just checked a biography of Emperor Frederick II on the internet at
the following weblink:
http://www.amnesia.de/Friedrich_II._(HRR).htm
As far as I could tell, no mention was made of either Isabel of
England, or her children in this account, even though there was a list
provided of the children of Emperor Frederick II.
Be that as it may, the following sources were listed as the
bibliography for Emperor Frederick II.
* Klaus van Eickels: Friedrich II., in: Bernd Schneidmüller/Stefan
Weinfurter (Hrsg.): Die deutschen Herrscher des Mittelalters,
Historische Porträts von Heinrich I. bis Maximilian I., München 2003,
S. 293-314 und S. 585 (Bibliographie). Hervorragende Kurzbiographie.
Van Eickels hat ebenfalls ein Quellenband zu Friedrich II.
herausgegeben.
* Ernst Kantorowicz: Kaiser Friedrich II., 2. Bde., Stuttgart
1985-86 (Nachdruck der Ausgabe aus den 20er Jahren), Sehr
romantisierend, daher mit Vorsicht zu lesen. Dabei ist es jedoch in
einer wunderbaren Sprache verfasst. Der Autor, ein später emigrierter
Jude, stand dem Kreis Stefan Georges nahe.
* Wolfgang Stürner: Friedrich II. (Gestalten des Mittelalters und
der Renaissance), 2 Bde., Darmstadt 1992-2000. Beste und aktuellste
Biographie über Friedrich II. Dabei nüchtern und objektiv. Es finden
sich hier auch zahlreiche weitere Literaturangaben.
* Gunther Wolf (Hrsg).: Stupor mundi. Zur Geschichte Friedrichs
II. von Hohenstaufen (Wege der Forschung 101), 2. veränderte Aufl.,
Darmstadt 1982. Wichtige Sammlung von Aufsätzen zum Thema Friedrich
II.
German anyone?
Best always, Douglas Richardson, Salt Lake City, Utah
-
Peter Stewart
Re: Children of Isabel of England (died 1241), wife of Emper
Crass crosspostings removed yet again...
"Douglas Richardson" <royalancestry@msn.com> wrote in message
news:6669b04f-1c15-4e98-88ad-25a5c02b21d0@i7g2000prf.googlegroups.com...
It's truy amazing that even you have not yet stumbled upon the full-scale
biographies in English - for instance, David Abulafia's _Frederick II: A
Medieval Emperor_ (London, 1988) or more importantly Thomas Curtis Van
Cleve's _The Emperor Frederick II of Hohenstaufen: Immutator Mundi_ (Oxford,
1972).
If you had the sense to find and had bothered to check the latter, you would
have learnt the following (on p 381):
"Certainly there is some evidence that a son, Jordanus, was born in the year
1236, and died shortly afterwards, but the only son of Frederick II and
Isabella of England whose birth can be firmly established was a second
Henry, born in 1238, and named after his uncle, Henry III, the King of
England."
The evidence for Jordan, like that for the supposed daughter "Agnes" whose
birth allegedly killed Isabella in 1241, is indirect from surviving
contemporary sources and only elaborated by later historians - who may, of
course, have had before them earlier material that is now lost.
You may be interested to know, as you have evidently not discovered for
yourself, that there is a published biography of Isabella's daughter,
_Margarete von Hohenstaufen, Die Stammutter der Wettiner_ by Otto Dobenecker
(Jena, 1915).
<snip>
Your ignorance, whether feigned or, as in this case, real, never ceases to
astound and amuse. "Petri de Vineis Epistolae" (NB _not_ "Vincis") is Latin
for "The Letters of Piero della Vigna" - a rather famous personage,
Frederick's chancellor - while "Petrus de Vinea" is of course the same man's
name in the nominative. Since you like to call people by the names they used
for themselves, you might do them the courtesy of actually finding out who
they were and when they wrote. Ditto for Rocco Pirri, whose 'Chronologia
regum Siciliae' was published in Palermo in 1643.
Peter Stewart
"Douglas Richardson" <royalancestry@msn.com> wrote in message
news:6669b04f-1c15-4e98-88ad-25a5c02b21d0@i7g2000prf.googlegroups.com...
Dear Newsgroup ~
There are at least two major biographies of Emperor Frederick II
(husband of Isabel of England) in print.
It's truy amazing that even you have not yet stumbled upon the full-scale
biographies in English - for instance, David Abulafia's _Frederick II: A
Medieval Emperor_ (London, 1988) or more importantly Thomas Curtis Van
Cleve's _The Emperor Frederick II of Hohenstaufen: Immutator Mundi_ (Oxford,
1972).
If you had the sense to find and had bothered to check the latter, you would
have learnt the following (on p 381):
"Certainly there is some evidence that a son, Jordanus, was born in the year
1236, and died shortly afterwards, but the only son of Frederick II and
Isabella of England whose birth can be firmly established was a second
Henry, born in 1238, and named after his uncle, Henry III, the King of
England."
The evidence for Jordan, like that for the supposed daughter "Agnes" whose
birth allegedly killed Isabella in 1241, is indirect from surviving
contemporary sources and only elaborated by later historians - who may, of
course, have had before them earlier material that is now lost.
You may be interested to know, as you have evidently not discovered for
yourself, that there is a published biography of Isabella's daughter,
_Margarete von Hohenstaufen, Die Stammutter der Wettiner_ by Otto Dobenecker
(Jena, 1915).
<snip>
Regardless Green gave these sources for Agnes Hohenstafufen's birth:
Agostino Inveges, Annali della felice Città di Palermo (1649): 589;
Petri de Vincis Epistolæ, book iii., No. 71; Rocchus Pirrus,
Chronologia Regum SiciliæGraevius, vol. v., col. 48
I believe Petri de Vincis Epistolæ is actually Petrus de Vinea,
Epistolae.
Your ignorance, whether feigned or, as in this case, real, never ceases to
astound and amuse. "Petri de Vineis Epistolae" (NB _not_ "Vincis") is Latin
for "The Letters of Piero della Vigna" - a rather famous personage,
Frederick's chancellor - while "Petrus de Vinea" is of course the same man's
name in the nominative. Since you like to call people by the names they used
for themselves, you might do them the courtesy of actually finding out who
they were and when they wrote. Ditto for Rocco Pirri, whose 'Chronologia
regum Siciliae' was published in Palermo in 1643.
Peter Stewart
-
Nebulous
Re: Children Of Isabel Of England (Died 1241), Wife Of Emper
"D. Spencer Hines" <panther@excelsior.com> wrote in message news:P1Skj.9
he Sorrows of the Blind
PITY the sorrows of the poor blind,
For they can but little comfort find;
As they walk along the street,
They know not where to put their feet.
They are deprived of that earthly joy
Of seeing either man, woman, or boy;
Sad and lonely through the world they go,
Not knowing a friend from a foe:
Nor the difference betwixt day and night,
For the want of their eyesight;
The blind mother cannot see her darling boy,
That was once her soul's joy.
By day and night,
Since she lost her precious sight;
To her the world seems dark and drear,
And she can find no comfort here.
She once found pleasure in reading books,
But now pale and careworn are her looks.
Since she has lost her eyesight,
Everything seems wrong and nothing right.
The face of nature, with all its beauties and livery green,
Appears to the blind just like a dream.
All things beautiful have vanished from their sight,
Which were once their heart's delight.
The blind father cannot see his beautiful child, nor wife,
That was once the joy of his life;
That he was wont to see at morn and night,
When he had his eyesight.
All comfort has vanished from him now,
And a dejected look hangs on his brow.
Kind Christians all, both great and small,
Pity the sorrows of the blind,
They can but little comfort find;
Therefore we ought to be content with our lot,
And for the eyesight we have got,
And pray to God both day and night
To preserve our eyesight;
To be always willing to help the blind in their distress,
And the Lord will surely bless
And guard us by night and day,
And remember us at the judgment day.
he Sorrows of the Blind
PITY the sorrows of the poor blind,
For they can but little comfort find;
As they walk along the street,
They know not where to put their feet.
They are deprived of that earthly joy
Of seeing either man, woman, or boy;
Sad and lonely through the world they go,
Not knowing a friend from a foe:
Nor the difference betwixt day and night,
For the want of their eyesight;
The blind mother cannot see her darling boy,
That was once her soul's joy.
By day and night,
Since she lost her precious sight;
To her the world seems dark and drear,
And she can find no comfort here.
She once found pleasure in reading books,
But now pale and careworn are her looks.
Since she has lost her eyesight,
Everything seems wrong and nothing right.
The face of nature, with all its beauties and livery green,
Appears to the blind just like a dream.
All things beautiful have vanished from their sight,
Which were once their heart's delight.
The blind father cannot see his beautiful child, nor wife,
That was once the joy of his life;
That he was wont to see at morn and night,
When he had his eyesight.
All comfort has vanished from him now,
And a dejected look hangs on his brow.
Kind Christians all, both great and small,
Pity the sorrows of the blind,
They can but little comfort find;
Therefore we ought to be content with our lot,
And for the eyesight we have got,
And pray to God both day and night
To preserve our eyesight;
To be always willing to help the blind in their distress,
And the Lord will surely bless
And guard us by night and day,
And remember us at the judgment day.