Breton descent of the English royal family?

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Gjest

Breton descent of the English royal family?

Legg inn av Gjest » 19 jan 2008 08:38:02

Various British families with female-line descents from cadets of the
Royal Family quarter the Royal Arms.

For instance, the Howards quarter the arms of the Plantagenets
courtesy of their descent from Margaret Mowbray, the great-great
granddaughter of Thomas of Brotherton (son of Edward I).

Fox-Davies (Complete Guide to Heraldry) states that English families
with the right to quarter the royal arms may also displaying a quarter
for Brittany.

I can't think off the top of my head how the English royal family
could be considered the heirs of the Dukes of Brittany, or any branch
thereof.

Any ideas?

MA-R

Gjest

Re: Breton descent of the English royal family?

Legg inn av Gjest » 19 jan 2008 11:08:03

On Jan 19, 6:37 pm, mj...@btinternet.com wrote:
Various British families with female-line descents from cadets of the
Royal Family quarter the Royal Arms.

For instance, the Howards quarter the arms of the Plantagenets
courtesy of their descent from Margaret Mowbray, the great-great
granddaughter of Thomas of Brotherton (son of Edward I).

Fox-Davies (Complete Guide to Heraldry) states that English families
with the right to quarter the royal arms may also displaying a quarter
for Brittany.

I can't think off the top of my head how the English royal family
could be considered the heirs of the Dukes of Brittany, or any branch
thereof.

Any ideas?

Leo has very kindly and generously prepared some detailed pedigrees
from his databases. The only Breton ascent I can see here is:

1. John II, Duke of Brittant, died 1305
2. Marie of Brittany
3. John, Count of St Pol
4. Maud, Countess of St Pol
5. John, Count of Brienne
6. Peter, Count of St Pol
7. Jacquetta of Luxembourg
8. Elizabeth Woodville
9. Elizabeth of York - married King Henry VII

but this was not a route of heirship, since Marie of Brittany was not
an heiress of her father, and neither was Jacquetta of Luxembourg.

MA-R

John Watson

Re: Breton descent of the English royal family?

Legg inn av John Watson » 19 jan 2008 23:35:05

On Jan 19, 3:37 pm, mj...@btinternet.com wrote:
Various British families with female-line descents from cadets of the
Royal Family quarter the Royal Arms.

For instance, the Howards quarter the arms of the Plantagenets
courtesy of their descent from Margaret Mowbray, the great-great
granddaughter of Thomas of Brotherton (son of Edward I).

Fox-Davies (Complete Guide to Heraldry) states that English families
with the right to quarter the royal arms may also displaying a quarter
for Brittany.

I can't think off the top of my head how the English royal family
could be considered the heirs of the Dukes of Brittany, or any branch
thereof.

Any ideas?

MA-R

Possibly this is it. Geoffrey of England, 4th son of Geoffrey
Plantagenet and brother of Henry II, born 23 Sept. 1158, in right of
his wife, Duke of Brittany and Earl of Richmond. He married Constance
of Brittany, daughter and heiress of Conan IV le Petit, Duke of
Brittany, Earl of Richmond, by Margaret, daughter of Henry of
Scotland, Earl of Northumberland.

Regards,

John

Hovite

Re: Breton descent of the English royal family?

Legg inn av Hovite » 21 jan 2008 00:21:04

On Jan 19, 9:35 pm, John Watson <WatsonJo...@gmail.com> wrote:

Possibly this is it. Geoffrey of England, 4th son of Geoffrey
Plantagenet and brother of Henry II, born 23 Sept. 1158, in right of
his wife, Duke of Brittany and Earl of Richmond. He married Constance
of Brittany, daughter and heiress of Conan IV le Petit, Duke of
Brittany, Earl of Richmond, by Margaret, daughter of Henry of
Scotland, Earl of Northumberland.

The son of Geoffrey was murdered by King John and the daughter
imprisoned. Therefore no English families descend from them.

Gjest

Re: Breton descent of the English royal family?

Legg inn av Gjest » 22 jan 2008 22:35:12

On Jan 22, 8:33 pm, "Peter G R Howarth" <pgrhowa...@tiscali.co.uk>
wrote:
I'm afraid I cannot find in my 1909 edition of Fox-Davies' Complete Guide
where he says anything about displaying a quarter for Brittany.

p 69 (in the chapter entitled, 'The Field of a Shield'):

"The plain shield of ermine is sometimes to be found as a quartering
for Brittany in an achievement for those English families who have the
right to quarter the Royal arms."

No such family is identified, however.

It seems to me that such a display would be wrong.

MA-R

Peter G R Howarth

RE: Breton descent of the English royal family?

Legg inn av Peter G R Howarth » 23 jan 2008 09:34:08

I apologise for the mistake in my previous post. It was ridiculous to
suggest that Henry IV acceded to the throne at Bosworth.

I should also point out that although a quarter of Brittany may never have
been used with the English royal arms, it was used with the French, for
example by Francis II when he was still Duke of Brittany.

Peter G R Howarth

-----Original Message-----
From: Peter G R Howarth [mailto:pgrhowarth@tiscali.co.uk]
Sent: 22 January 2008 09:34
To: 'gen-medieval@rootsweb.com'
Subject: RE: Breton descent of the English royal family?

I'm afraid I cannot find in my 1909 edition of Fox-Davies' Complete Guide
where he says anything about displaying a quarter for Brittany.

It seems a most peculiar thing for him to say. The Mowbrays, from whom the
Howards derived their right to use the Brotherton arms, and the Staffords,
who used the Woodstock arms, did not use any representation of the arms of
Brittany. And of course neither family was entitled to use the
undifferenced arms of England. When the poet Earl of Surrey, heir to the
Howards, tried to omit the label from his Brotherton quarter he was executed
for treason.

And although the kings of England bore the arms of France when they had no
right (pace Henry VI's coronation), they never bore anything to represent
Brittany. Nor has a quarter, or even a canton, of Brittany been used to
difference the royal arms.

The only connection with the arms of Brittany I can think of off hand is for
the earldom of Richmond, which had for a long time traditionally been held
by the Dukes of Brittany. John of Gaunt, Earl of Richmond for thirty years,
differenced his father's royal arms with a label ermine, presumably as a
reference to the earlier holders of the title. His son, Henry Bolingbroke,
bore, after his father's death and before Bosworth, a label half France
(from his mother's arms) and half Brittany.

Peter G R Howarth

-----Original Message-----
From: mjcar@btinternet.com [mailto:mjcar@btinternet.com]
Sent: 19 January 2008 07:37
To: gen-medieval@rootsweb.com
Subject: Breton descent of the English royal family?

Various British families with female-line descents from cadets of the
Royal Family quarter the Royal Arms.

For instance, the Howards quarter the arms of the Plantagenets
courtesy of their descent from Margaret Mowbray, the great-great
granddaughter of Thomas of Brotherton (son of Edward I).

Fox-Davies (Complete Guide to Heraldry) states that English families
with the right to quarter the royal arms may also displaying a quarter
for Brittany.

I can't think off the top of my head how the English royal family
could be considered the heirs of the Dukes of Brittany, or any branch
thereof.

Any ideas?

MA-R

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