Fw: C.P. Correction/Addition: Children of Sir John Neville (

[Leo van de Pas]

This (as usual for Richardson crossposted) message contains (for me) new
information, but also information presented as new, even though some of the
details were known before, and in one case it is not clear whether a source
given applies to a piece of information mentioned afterwards.

New: Sir John and Elizabeth Holand have four instead of two children. The
daughter Margaret for me is new, but the son Thomas is not.
Thomas (as son) can be found in Burke's Peerage 1999 page 15, as well as the
much earlier Cahiers de Saint Louis page 1015

And here I found a discrepancy, which I hope Richardson can clarify. He
gives that this Thomas was married only once and had two legitimate children
and one illegitimate son. According to Cahiers de Saint Louis (not always
reliable) gives he married an unknown woman who was the mother of his two
legitimate children. Then he marries the twice widowed Elizabeth Beaumont
and an indication is given that Elizabeth did not have children by any of
her husbands.

And now the illegitimate son of Thomas. What source has Richardson given for
him? It is not clear to me. Richardson gives correctly (see CP XI page 24)
that this George married the widowed Countess Rivers.
Cahiers de Saint Louis page 841 tells George is the illegitimate son of of
_a_Earl of Westmorland (which Thomas, the father according to Richardson,
was not). In this case I feel that Richardson is more reliable than the
Cahiers.

The Cahiers also tell that George and the widowed Countess Rivers had a
daughter who married and in turn had children.
Of these children Henry was a priest, but his elder brother John (Thoroton's
Notts 1:344) married and had a son who married twice, whether he had
children I do not know.

With best wishes
Leo van de Pas
Canberra, Australia

----- Original Message -----
From: "Douglas Richardson" <[email protected]>
Newsgroups: soc.genealogy.medieval, soc.history.medieval,
alt.history.british
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Sunday, December 23, 2007 7:13 AM
Subject: C.P. Correction/Addition: Children of Sir John Neville (died 1420)
and his wife, Elizabeth Holand


Dear Newsgroup ~

The authoritative Complete Peerage, 12 Part 2 (1959): 548-549 (sub
Westmorland) includes a good account of the life of Sir John Neville
(died 1420), of Sutton (in Galtres), Yorkshire, eldest son and heir
apparent of Ralph Neville, K.G., 1st Earl of Westmorland, by his 1st
wife, Margaret Stafford. Regarding his marriage, Complete Peerage
states that Sir John Neville married Elizabeth Holand, daughter of
Thomas Holand, 5th Earl of Kent. Their issue is not given, but on
page 549, footnote h, it is stated that their son and heir, Ralph
Neville, 2nd Earl of Westmorland, had "an only brother, John, Lord
Neville ... who was slain fighting for the Lancastrians at Towton, 29
March 1461." Thus, if this information is to be trusted, Sir John
Neville and his wife, Elizabeth Holand, had only two sons, Ralph [2nd
Earl] and John. No mention is made if there were any daughters.

Actually, contemporary evidence shows that Sir John Neville and his
wife, Elizabeth, had four children in all, including three sons,
Ralph, John, and Thomas, and one daughter, Margaret. The evidence for
the younger children is found in Proceedings and Ordinances of the
Privy Council of England, edited by Sir Harris Nicolas, 3 (1834): 20.
On that page, there is a contemporary record dated 17 January 1423,
which concerns the estate of Elizabeth, widow of Sir John Neville.
This record specifically states that Lady Neville had three younger
children, John, Thomas, and Margaret, all then living.

The item in question on page 20 may be found at the following weblink:

http://books.google.com/books?id=NvYKAA ... A1-PA20,M1

Although the item is in Latin, an abbreviated abstract in English can
be found on page v:

http://books.google.com/books?id=NvYKAA ... RA1-PR5,M1

It reads as follows:

"17th January, 1 Henry VI. 1423. The feoffees of the deceased Lady
Neville of certain manors in the Counties of York, Nottingham, and
Surrey, having been examined, acknowledged that they were enfeoffed
thereof, for the purpose of paying the debts of the said Lady, forty
marks to her son John, £20 to her son Thomas, and to her daughter
Margaret according to their discretion, and of making a re-enfeoffment
of the same to her son and heir." END OF QUOTE.

It is puzzling indeed why the third son, Sir Thomas Neville, should
have been overlooked by Complete Peerage, as I find him mentioned in
other records of this family which are easily accesible [see, for
example, Harvey et al. Vis. of the North, 3 (Surtees Society 144)
(1930): 23-32 (Neville pedigree)]. Sir Thomas Neville allegedly
resided at Slingsby, Yorkshire. He married Elizabeth Beaumont,
daughter of Henry Beaumont, K.B., 5th Lord Beaumont, by which marriage
he had two legitimate sons, Sir Humphrey and Charles. By an unknown
mistress, Sir Thomas also had a bastard son, Sir George Neville, of
London, whose wife was Mary Fitz Lewis, Countess Rivers. Sir Thomas
Neville has modern descendants. Also, there is a biography of Sir
Thomas Neville's son, Sir Humphrey Neville, in the standard reference
work, Oxford Dictionary of Modern Biography (ODNB).

As for the "new" daughter, Margaret Neville, I find no mention of her
in any account of the Neville family that I've consulted. As such, I
assume she died in young adulthood, presumably unmarried.

For interest's sake, I've listed below the names of the 17th Century
New World immigrants that descend from Sir John Neville and his wife,
Elizabeth Holand:

Philip & Thomas Nelson

Comments are welcome, indeed invited. Please cite your sources and
provide weblinks if you have them. Thanks!

Best always, Douglas Richardson, Salt Lake City, Utah






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