Agnes 'of the Isles' and Agnes Montgomery

[John P. Ravilious]

Thursday, 13 December, 2007


Hello All,

It has been a while since the issue of Agnes 'of the
Isles' (wife of Sir John Montgomery of Ardrossan and Eglinton)
has been discussed, but a number of observations has prompted
the following conjecture (actually, group of conjectures).

I suggest that the correct placement of Agnes, wife of Sir
John Montgomery, was as a daughter of John (Eoin) of Dunivaig,
probably as a daughter of a concubine or spouse other than Margery
Bisset, the heiress of the Glens of Antrim. Eoin (Eoin) of
Dunivaig, evidently 2nd son of Eoin 'the Good' and Margaret
Stewart, was likely born say 1350-1355. Assuming Agnes was born
say 1370-1380, this would agree reasonably with the chronology as
regards her father and as currently understood re: her Montgomery
issue (her son Alexander, first Lord Montgomery, was born say
1390-1400). We know that John of Dunivaig's elder brother
Donald, Lord of the Isles, had a daughter Agnes, evidently by an
unknown wife/concubine: there was a dispensation for the marriage
of Agnes and Sir Robert Lamont in 1397. The chronology as to the
marital history of Agnes 'of the Isles' as conjectured would
reasonably mirror that of her (apparent) 1st cousin Agnes [1].

Support for this conjecture can be found in the dispensation
for the marriage of Sir John Montgomery, husband of Agnes 'of the
Isles', and his 2nd wife Margaret Maxwell, concerning the
solution of which the foregoing conjecture also provides support
[NB: this 'mutual support' position for each is circular
reasoning in the absence of additional documentation, re: which
see below]. Discussion has occurred concerning Margaret's
consanguinity with Sir John, but the dispensation also states
that there was affinity in the 4th degree, i.e. Margaret Maxwell
and Agnes were also related in the 4th degree of kindred [2].
Margaret Maxwell was shown in the Scots Peerage accounts as a
daughter of Maxwell of Caerlaverock, but the note concerning
this identification is tentative, as it states, "neither charter
nor dispensation prove her parentage" [3]. The affinity has to
date not been resolved, but if as shown below Agnes was the
daughter of John of Dunivaig, and Margaret the daughter of Sir
John de Maxwell of Pollok (by his wife Isabel de Lindsay), Agnes
and Margaret Maxwell were in fact related 'in the fourth
degree' [technically, 3rd and 4th degree of consanguinity] and
great-great-granddaughter, and great-granddaughter, of Walter
the Stewart, respectively.

Two elements provide support for these conjectures:

(1) Agnes Montgomery, wife 1stly of Sir Robert Cunningham
and 2ndly of Sir George Campbell of Loudoun, has been
identified by Andrew MacEwen as the daughter of Sir John
Montgomery and Margaret Maxwell (not Sir John's daughter
by his first wife Agnes, as given in Scots Peerage).
One reason noted supporting this, which was not part of
Andrew's correction, is that Agnes Montgomery would now
be understood to have been the niece of
Sir Robert Maxwell of Calderwood, husband of Elizabeth,
one of the coheiresses of Sir Robert de Danielston. Her
first husband, Sir Robert Cunningham, was the son of
Margaret, the other Danielston coheiress. The marriage
of Sir Robert Cunningham and Agnes Montgomery now
appears to have been a nicely coordinated match, between
the nephew of Elizabeth Danielston and the niece of
her husband Sir Robert Maxwell.

(2) Andrew MacEwen had previously conjectured that Elizabeth
Stewart, wife of the next Sir George Campbell of Loudoun,
was of the Kilbride (Lanarks.) family of Stewarts, and
not that of the Darnley family as previously suggested.
In a recent conversation with Andrew, it was noted that
the chronology re: Elizabeth Stewart and her husband Sir
George (they were dispensed to marry in 1466) did not
indicate that she was likely a daughter of the George
Stewart of Kilbride who was contracted to marry Margaret
Maxwell in 1416: subsequent references to George Stewart
(1466) appear to concern the son of George Stewart of
Kilbride and his wife Margaret Maxwell. If this
conjectured younger George Stewart of Kilbride was born
say 1417-1422, and fathered Elizabeth Stewart say
1440-1450 (as well as having attended the baptism of the
young Sir George Campbell say 1440-1445), the relation-
ship between Sir George Campbell and Elizabeth Stewart
would also be explained: they would have been related in
the 3rd and 4th degrees of consanguinity, as great-
grandson and great-great-granddaughter, respectively,
of Sir John Maxwell of Pollok and Isabel Lindsay [4].



1) Marjory = Walter the = 2) Isabel
Bruce I Stewart I de Graham
____________I I
I I
Robert II = 1) Elizabeth Giles = Sir James
K of Scots I Mure Stewart I de Lindsay
I______ I______
I I
Eoin 'the Good' = Margaret Sir John = Isabel de
Lord of the Isles I Stewart de Maxwell I Lindsay
d. 1387 I of Pollok I
_________________I _________________ I_______________
I I I _______________ I
Donald Eoin (John) I I I Sir
Lord of of I Margaret Elizabeth = Robert
the Isles Dunivaig I Danielston Danielston I Maxwell
: I = Sir William I
: I Cunyngham I
.........: I I Margaret
: I I = George Stewart
1) Agnes = Sir John = 2) Margaret I of Kilbride
'of the Montgomery I Maxwell I I
Isles' ________I I I
I _________I I
I I I
Agnes = 1) Sir Robert = 2) Sir George George
Montgomery I Cunyngham I Campbell Stewart
I I of Loudoun of Kilbride
V I I
I I
Sir George Campbell = Elizabeth
of Loudoun I Stewart
I
V



The foregoing conjectures are obviously based on the
dispensation evidence, and precious little else. Should anyone
of the list have additional pertinent documentation to hand, or
suggestions as to other sources, that would be greatly
appreciated.

Cheers,

John



NOTES

[1] Robert Lamont and Agnes, dau. of Donald, Lord of the Isles
[" Robert Duncani MacLagmayn and Ana Donaldi domini
Insularum "] were dispensed to marry, as they were related
in the 3rd degree of consanguinity, 30 Oct 1397. Jean Munro,
Ph.D. and R. W. Munro, eds. Acts of the Lords of the
Isles, 1336-1493 (Edinburgh: Blackwood, Pillans & Wilson,
1986 [Pub. of the Scottish History Society, Ser. 4, Vol. 22]),
p. 243, no. B28. The published text of the dispensation is
given in Sir Norman Lamont of Knockdow, Bart., F.S.A. (Scot.),
An Inventory of Lamont Papers, 1231-1897 (Presented to the
Scottish Record Society) (Edinburgh: J. Skinner & Company,
Ltd., 1914), pp. 11-12, no. 19.


[2] A papal dispensation was granted 4 May 1413/4:

' Muriella, duchess of Albany. On behalf of John Montisgomorri,
knight, and Margaret Maxuhel, of the diocese of Glasgow, for
a dispensation to intermarry, they being related in the fourth
degree of kindred and affinity. Granted for both. Tortosa,
4 Non. May, an. 20. ' [Papal Petitions I:602; SP VI:474,
cites Papal Petitions, i. 602; Reg. Mag. Sig., 2 October
1427.]

[3] SP VI:474.

[4] 1466, March 29.
" It is represented for the part of George Campbell
of Martnaham [Martinharme], layman, and Elizabeth Stewart,
laywoman, spouses, d. Glas., that they, not ignorant that
they were related in third and fourth degree of
consanguinity, and that the father of Elizabeth had baptised
[sic] George at the font, contracted matrimony per verba de
presenti and, without any preceeding banns, solemnised it in
the face of the church, consummated the same and had
offspring. But the said spouses are not able to remain in
matrimony without the dispensation of the apostolic see, and
if they should divorce, strife and scandals would break out.
It is therefore supplicated that the Pope absolve them from
excommunication on account of the foregoing, and give
mandate to dispense them to remain in matrimony and to
contract it anew, decreeing offspring born and to be born
legitimate.
Concessum. Rome, St. Mark's. Dispensatio 593.81. (James
Kirk, Roland J. Tanner & the late Annie I. Dunlop, eds.,
Calendar of Scottish Supplications to Rome, Volume V,
1447-1471( Glasgow), p. 332, no. 1114).

' 1466, May 7. From GEORGE CAMBEL AND YSABETA his wife,
Glasgow diocese, by their own hands, as composition for
dispensation of matrimony in third and fourth degrees of
consanguinity.
fl. xij. ' (Annie I. Cameron, The Apostolic Camera and
Scottish Benefices, 1418-1488, Oxford University Press,
1934, p. 284).


* John P. Ravilious

[Doug McDonald]

John P. Ravilious wrote:

Thursday, 13 December, 2007


Hello All,

It has been a while since the issue of Agnes 'of the
Isles' (wife of Sir John Montgomery of Ardrossan and Eglinton)
has been discussed, but a number of observations has prompted
the following conjecture (actually, group of conjectures).

I suggest that the correct placement of Agnes, wife of Sir
John Montgomery, was as a daughter of John (Eoin) of Dunivaig,
probably as a daughter of a concubine or spouse other than Margery
Bisset, the heiress of the Glens of Antrim.

Interesting. This would provide me to another path to
my early McDonald ancestors, by marriage to Stewart of Lennox,
Campbell of Argyll, Stewart of Atholl, and Grant of Freuchie.
This is my Rose gateway, a rather rare one.

Are there connections to more common American gateways?

Doug McDonald

[John P. Ravilious]

Dear Doug,

If by 'more common American gateways' you mean those with
descents from Agnes 'of the Isles', the only four I know of for
certain are my ancestor Robert Cunyngham; his elder brother William,
his great-nephew Robert Cunyngham; and James Hamilton, younger son of
Hamilton of Grange and father of Alexander Hamilton [who emigrated
from the West Indies to New York, obviously]. I would imagine there
are a number of others in GBR's RD 600, as after the issue of
Alexander, 1st Lord Montgomery expanded a bit the number of
descendants are legion - including residents at Buckingham Palace,
etc.

Cheers,

John



On Dec 13, 2:39 pm, Doug McDonald <mcdonald@SnPoAM_scs.uiuc.edu>
wrote:

John P. Ravilious wrote:
Thursday, 13 December, 2007

Hello All,

It has been a while since the issue of Agnes 'of the
Isles' (wife of Sir John Montgomery of Ardrossan and Eglinton)
has been discussed, but a number of observations has prompted
the following conjecture (actually, group of conjectures).

I suggest that the correct placement of Agnes, wife of Sir
John Montgomery, was as a daughter of John (Eoin) of Dunivaig,
probably as a daughter of a concubine or spouse other than Margery
Bisset, the heiress of the Glens of Antrim.

Interesting. This would provide me to another path to
my early McDonald ancestors, by marriage to Stewart of Lennox,
Campbell of Argyll, Stewart of Atholl, and Grant of Freuchie.
This is my Rose gateway, a rather rare one.

Are there connections to more common American gateways?

Doug McDonald

[wjhonson]

Are you sure George Stewart's wife's name was Margaret and not
Marion ?

Subj: Re: SP Addition: Sir Robert de Danielston, grandson of Robert
II of Scots
Date: 12/30/05 7:02:42 AM Pacific Standard Time
From: [email protected] (John P. Ravilious)
To: [email protected]

<snip>
indenture between Sir Robert Maxwell and James Stewart of Kilbride
for the marriage of his daughter 'Marioun', referred to her as
the 'dochter of the said Sir Robertis and his first wyfis', to
George Stewart, son and heir of James, 7 Apr 1416 [Fraser p.
148[12]]

[John P. Ravilious]

Dear Will,

The names Margaret and Marion are different and distinct, but
during the period (say 1300-1600) I have noted that they have been
used indiscriminately for the same individual in different documents.
The problem may have stemmed from the use of Mariota as a Latinized
form of Marjory, such that there has been an easy if sloppy
correlation of the names Margaret [Margaret/Margery/Marjory] and
Marion [Mariota/Marion]. The appears to go beyond this instance, as
we find for example Mary Stewart, dau. of King Robert III of Scotland
[wife of George Douglas, Earl of Angus; Sir James Kennedy of Dunure;
et al.] being referred to in various documents as Mary, Maria and
Mariota.

Similar equations between Elizabeth and Isabel[la] occur, as with
the Stewart wife of George Campbell of Loudoun mentioned in the first
post in this thread. Perhaps the form 'Ysabeta' [Annie I. Cameron,
The Apostolic Camera and Scottish Benefices, 1418-1488, Oxford
University Press, 1934, p. 284) provides a "crossover" from Elizabeth/
Elizabetha to Isabella/Isabel ?

Cheers,

John




On Dec 24, 11:30 pm, wjhonson <[email protected]> wrote:

Are you sure George Stewart's wife's name was Margaret and not
Marion ?

Subj:    Re: SP Addition: Sir Robert de Danielston, grandson of Robert
II of Scots
Date:   12/30/05 7:02:42 AM Pacific Standard Time
From:   [email protected] (John P. Ravilious)
To:     [email protected]

snip
 indenture between Sir Robert Maxwell and James Stewart of Kilbride
 for the marriage of his daughter 'Marioun', referred to her as
 the 'dochter of the said Sir Robertis and his first wyfis', to
 George Stewart, son and heir of James, 7 Apr 1416  [Fraser p.
148[12]]