Castle Garden database

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Chris Watts

Castle Garden database

Legg inn av Chris Watts » 18 nov 2007 18:46:07

Is anybody familiar with the source data underlying castlegarden.org?
I have searched it and found the arrival of an ancestor (in 1853). There is
no reference to the source records and no digitised version of the record.
So where did it come from? I should, like all good researchers, like to
trace it back to the original source but don't know where to look.

I have searched ancestry.com' s "Passenger Lists of Vessels Arriving at New
York, New York, 1820-1897"; (National Archives Microfilm Publication M237,
675 rolls); Records of the U.S. Customs Service, Record Group 36; National
Archives, Washington, D.C. The same family is there but the passenger list
does not contain all the information that is to be found in the Castle
Garden database - so that cannot be the source.

Can anybody help?
TIA
Chris Watts

Chris Watts

Re: Castle Garden database

Legg inn av Chris Watts » 18 nov 2007 20:42:22

"MikeS" <csaunders65@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:ccbcb668-91cd-4f88-8f78-845b9f86a4e3@d50g2000hsf.googlegroups.com...
On Nov 18, 11:46 am, "Chris Watts" <n...@ctwatts.plus.com> wrote:
Is anybody familiar with the source data underlying castlegarden.org?
I have searched it and found the arrival of an ancestor (in 1853). There
is
no reference to the source records and no digitised version of the
record.
So where did it come from? I should, like all good researchers, like to
trace it back to the original source but don't know where to look.

I have searched ancestry.com' s "Passenger Lists of Vessels Arriving at
New
York, New York, 1820-1897"; (National Archives Microfilm Publication
M237,
675 rolls); Records of the U.S. Customs Service, Record Group 36;
National
Archives, Washington, D.C. The same family is there but the passenger
list
does not contain all the information that is to be found in the Castle
Garden database - so that cannot be the source.

Can anybody help?
TIA
Chris Watts

Google is your friend. You can find a great deal of information about
Castle Garden. Also, since you have access to acnestry.com you can
read an excellent article in their archives on Castle Garden here
http://www.ancestry.com/learn/library/a ... ticle=7233

Mike

Thanks Mike, I have extensively googled and now read the excellent article
that you refered me to. Tells me lots about the history of Castle garden -
and most interesting that is - but nothing about the records.

Chris

MikeS

Re: Castle Garden database

Legg inn av MikeS » 18 nov 2007 20:57:11

On Nov 18, 11:46 am, "Chris Watts" <n...@ctwatts.plus.com> wrote:
Is anybody familiar with the source data underlying castlegarden.org?
I have searched it and found the arrival of an ancestor (in 1853). There is
no reference to the source records and no digitised version of the record.
So where did it come from? I should, like all good researchers, like to
trace it back to the original source but don't know where to look.

I have searched ancestry.com' s "Passenger Lists of Vessels Arriving at New
York, New York, 1820-1897"; (National Archives Microfilm Publication M237,
675 rolls); Records of the U.S. Customs Service, Record Group 36; National
Archives, Washington, D.C. The same family is there but the passenger list
does not contain all the information that is to be found in the Castle
Garden database - so that cannot be the source.

Can anybody help?
TIA
Chris Watts

Google is your friend. You can find a great deal of information about
Castle Garden. Also, since you have access to acnestry.com you can
read an excellent article in their archives on Castle Garden here
http://www.ancestry.com/learn/library/a ... ticle=7233

Mike

catalpa

Re: Castle Garden database

Legg inn av catalpa » 19 nov 2007 01:33:20

"Chris Watts" <ng@ctwatts.plus.com> wrote in message
news:uJ6dnRzXIPQC593anZ2dnUVZ8uGdnZ2d@bt.com...
Is anybody familiar with the source data underlying castlegarden.org?
I have searched it and found the arrival of an ancestor (in 1853). There
is
no reference to the source records and no digitised version of the record.
So where did it come from? I should, like all good researchers, like to
trace it back to the original source but don't know where to look.

I have searched ancestry.com' s "Passenger Lists of Vessels Arriving at
New
York, New York, 1820-1897"; (National Archives Microfilm Publication M237,
675 rolls); Records of the U.S. Customs Service, Record Group 36; National
Archives, Washington, D.C. The same family is there but the passenger
list
does not contain all the information that is to be found in the Castle
Garden database - so that cannot be the source.

Can anybody help?
TIA
Chris Watts



The source should be the ship manifest as there is no other record of
arrival available that I am aware of. The castlegarden.org database only
has a very limited set of data for each individual as the ship manifests of
the time were rather simple.

From what I have seen the castlegarden.org database is different from the
ancestry.com database. For example, at ancestry.com I can find Catha Cerny
and sons Jan and Pal arriving 19 May 1893 from Hungary on the Spree, but
cannot find them at castlegarden.org. I have the manifest page from
ancestry.com and the names read clearly for me. castlegarden.org did index
the Spree for 19 May 1893, but they either totally butchered these names or
skipped this page in the manifest.

MikeS

Re: Castle Garden database

Legg inn av MikeS » 19 nov 2007 02:40:20

On Nov 18, 1:42 pm, "Chris Watts" <n...@ctwatts.plus.com> wrote:
"MikeS" <csaunder...@gmail.com> wrote in message

news:ccbcb668-91cd-4f88-8f78-845b9f86a4e3@d50g2000hsf.googlegroups.com...





On Nov 18, 11:46 am, "Chris Watts" <n...@ctwatts.plus.com> wrote:
Is anybody familiar with the source data underlying castlegarden.org?
I have searched it and found the arrival of an ancestor (in 1853). There
is
no reference to the source records and no digitised version of the
record.
So where did it come from? I should, like all good researchers, like to
trace it back to the original source but don't know where to look.

I have searched ancestry.com' s "Passenger Lists of Vessels Arriving at
New
York, New York, 1820-1897"; (National Archives Microfilm Publication
M237,
675 rolls); Records of the U.S. Customs Service, Record Group 36;
National
Archives, Washington, D.C. The same family is there but the passenger
list
does not contain all the information that is to be found in the Castle
Garden database - so that cannot be the source.

Can anybody help?
TIA
Chris Watts

Google is your friend. You can find a great deal of information about
Castle Garden. Also, since you have access to acnestry.com you can
read an excellent article in their archives on Castle Garden here
http://www.ancestry.com/learn/library/a ... ticle=7233

Mike

Thanks Mike, I have extensively googled and now read the excellent article
that you refered me to. Tells me lots about the history of Castle garden -
and most interesting that is - but nothing about the records.

Chris- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

Okay. I suggest you do a query for your relative on the Stephen Morse
site here http://www.stevemorse.org/index.html

This may lead to a source by microfilm number.

Mike

Chris Watts

Re: Castle Garden database

Legg inn av Chris Watts » 19 nov 2007 10:45:11

"catalpa" <catalpa@entertab.org> wrote in message
news:kR40j.1089$K_3.944@trnddc03...
"Chris Watts" <ng@ctwatts.plus.com> wrote in message
news:uJ6dnRzXIPQC593anZ2dnUVZ8uGdnZ2d@bt.com...
Is anybody familiar with the source data underlying castlegarden.org?
I have searched it and found the arrival of an ancestor (in 1853). There
is
no reference to the source records and no digitised version of the
record.
So where did it come from? I should, like all good researchers, like to
trace it back to the original source but don't know where to look.

I have searched ancestry.com' s "Passenger Lists of Vessels Arriving at
New
York, New York, 1820-1897"; (National Archives Microfilm Publication
M237,
675 rolls); Records of the U.S. Customs Service, Record Group 36;
National
Archives, Washington, D.C. The same family is there but the passenger
list
does not contain all the information that is to be found in the Castle
Garden database - so that cannot be the source.

Can anybody help?
TIA
Chris Watts



The source should be the ship manifest as there is no other record of
arrival available that I am aware of. The castlegarden.org database only
has a very limited set of data for each individual as the ship manifests
of the time were rather simple.

From what I have seen the castlegarden.org database is different from the
ancestry.com database. For example, at ancestry.com I can find Catha Cerny
and sons Jan and Pal arriving 19 May 1893 from Hungary on the Spree, but
cannot find them at castlegarden.org. I have the manifest page from
ancestry.com and the names read clearly for me. castlegarden.org did index
the Spree for 19 May 1893, but they either totally butchered these names
or skipped this page in the manifest.

Yes, what I have is an oddball here. It is not just a

transcription/indexing issue.
Castlegarden dot org has the family and their database includes the
occupations of all five of the party.
The ship's manifest to be found on ancestry dot com does NOT contain that
information for four of them - and I am looking at the image not their
transcript.
So the castlegarden info could not have come from the same document as on
ancestry - so where did it come from?

Chris

James A. Doemer

Re: Castle Garden database

Legg inn av James A. Doemer » 19 nov 2007 12:50:54

In News kR40j.1089$K_3.944@trnddc03,, catalpa at catalpa@entertab.org, typed
this:

"Chris Watts" <ng@ctwatts.plus.com> wrote in message
news:uJ6dnRzXIPQC593anZ2dnUVZ8uGdnZ2d@bt.com...
Is anybody familiar with the source data underlying castlegarden.org?
I have searched it and found the arrival of an ancestor (in 1853). There
is
no reference to the source records and no digitised version of the
record. So where did it come from? I should, like all good
researchers, like to trace it back to the original source but don't
know where to look. I have searched ancestry.com' s "Passenger Lists of
Vessels Arriving
at New
York, New York, 1820-1897"; (National Archives Microfilm Publication
M237, 675 rolls); Records of the U.S. Customs Service, Record Group
36; National Archives, Washington, D.C. The same family is there
but the passenger list
does not contain all the information that is to be found in the
Castle Garden database - so that cannot be the source.

Can anybody help?
TIA
Chris Watts



The source should be the ship manifest as there is no other record of
arrival available that I am aware of. The castlegarden.org database
only has a very limited set of data for each individual as the ship
manifests of the time were rather simple.

From what I have seen the castlegarden.org database is different from
the ancestry.com database. For example, at ancestry.com I can find
Catha Cerny and sons Jan and Pal arriving 19 May 1893 from Hungary on
the Spree, but cannot find them at castlegarden.org. I have the
manifest page from ancestry.com and the names read clearly for me.
castlegarden.org did index the Spree for 19 May 1893, but they either
totally butchered these names or skipped this page in the manifest.

I found my ancestors arriving in June of 1852 aboard the Belgium Ship Maria,
but their last names were misspelled. So I contacted them and told them of
the spelling error. Apparently, they're still inputting data and that
process has not yet been complete. Check back with their website
periodically and you may find Jan and Pal eventually.

singhals

Re: Castle Garden database

Legg inn av singhals » 19 nov 2007 17:59:56

Chris Watts wrote:

"catalpa" <catalpa@entertab.org> wrote in message
news:kR40j.1089$K_3.944@trnddc03...

"Chris Watts" <ng@ctwatts.plus.com> wrote in message
news:uJ6dnRzXIPQC593anZ2dnUVZ8uGdnZ2d@bt.com...

Is anybody familiar with the source data underlying castlegarden.org?
I have searched it and found the arrival of an ancestor (in 1853). There
is
no reference to the source records and no digitised version of the
record.
So where did it come from? I should, like all good researchers, like to
trace it back to the original source but don't know where to look.

I have searched ancestry.com' s "Passenger Lists of Vessels Arriving at
New
York, New York, 1820-1897"; (National Archives Microfilm Publication
M237,
675 rolls); Records of the U.S. Customs Service, Record Group 36;
National
Archives, Washington, D.C. The same family is there but the passenger
list
does not contain all the information that is to be found in the Castle
Garden database - so that cannot be the source.

Can anybody help?
TIA
Chris Watts



The source should be the ship manifest as there is no other record of
arrival available that I am aware of. The castlegarden.org database only
has a very limited set of data for each individual as the ship manifests
of the time were rather simple.

From what I have seen the castlegarden.org database is different from the
ancestry.com database. For example, at ancestry.com I can find Catha Cerny
and sons Jan and Pal arriving 19 May 1893 from Hungary on the Spree, but
cannot find them at castlegarden.org. I have the manifest page from
ancestry.com and the names read clearly for me. castlegarden.org did index
the Spree for 19 May 1893, but they either totally butchered these names
or skipped this page in the manifest.


Yes, what I have is an oddball here. It is not just a
transcription/indexing issue.
Castlegarden dot org has the family and their database includes the
occupations of all five of the party.
The ship's manifest to be found on ancestry dot com does NOT contain that
information for four of them - and I am looking at the image not their
transcript.
So the castlegarden info could not have come from the same document as on
ancestry - so where did it come from?

Chris




Does the Ancestry.com manifest show that data on ANYONE on
the ship?

Was more than one copy of a document made in the 1850s?

Cheryl

Chris Watts

Re: Castle Garden database

Legg inn av Chris Watts » 19 nov 2007 18:50:43

"singhals" <singhals@erols.com> wrote in message
news:f4-dnSi137eRXNzanZ2dnUVZ_jGdnZ2d@rcn.net...
Chris Watts wrote:

"catalpa" <catalpa@entertab.org> wrote in message
news:kR40j.1089$K_3.944@trnddc03...

"Chris Watts" <ng@ctwatts.plus.com> wrote in message
news:uJ6dnRzXIPQC593anZ2dnUVZ8uGdnZ2d@bt.com...

Is anybody familiar with the source data underlying castlegarden.org?
I have searched it and found the arrival of an ancestor (in 1853).
There is
no reference to the source records and no digitised version of the
record.
So where did it come from? I should, like all good researchers, like to
trace it back to the original source but don't know where to look.

I have searched ancestry.com' s "Passenger Lists of Vessels Arriving at
New
York, New York, 1820-1897"; (National Archives Microfilm Publication
M237,
675 rolls); Records of the U.S. Customs Service, Record Group 36;
National
Archives, Washington, D.C. The same family is there but the passenger
list
does not contain all the information that is to be found in the Castle
Garden database - so that cannot be the source.

Can anybody help?
TIA
Chris Watts



The source should be the ship manifest as there is no other record of
arrival available that I am aware of. The castlegarden.org database only
has a very limited set of data for each individual as the ship manifests
of the time were rather simple.

From what I have seen the castlegarden.org database is different from the
ancestry.com database. For example, at ancestry.com I can find Catha
Cerny and sons Jan and Pal arriving 19 May 1893 from Hungary on the
Spree, but cannot find them at castlegarden.org. I have the manifest page
from ancestry.com and the names read clearly for me. castlegarden.org did
index the Spree for 19 May 1893, but they either totally butchered these
names or skipped this page in the manifest.


Yes, what I have is an oddball here. It is not just a
transcription/indexing issue.
Castlegarden dot org has the family and their database includes the
occupations of all five of the party.
The ship's manifest to be found on ancestry dot com does NOT contain that
information for four of them - and I am looking at the image not their
transcript.
So the castlegarden info could not have come from the same document as on
ancestry - so where did it come from?

Chris


Does the Ancestry.com manifest show that data on ANYONE on the ship?
Yes, in as far as the occupations are concerned. It is given for one member

of the family but not the others. It is also given for the head of the
other families.

Was more than one copy of a document made in the 1850s?
Therein lies my question!


Chris

Jim Elbrecht

Re: Castle Garden database

Legg inn av Jim Elbrecht » 19 nov 2007 20:13:38

"Chris Watts" <ng@ctwatts.plus.com> wrote:

"singhals" <singhals@erols.com> wrote in message
news:f4-dnSi137eRXNzanZ2dnUVZ_jGdnZ2d@rcn.net...

-snip-
Was more than one copy of a document made in the 1850s?
Therein lies my question!


Yes- but the details escape me right now. . . .

Glad I asked the question on Usenet in 1999.- From that conversation
I see that the customs officials copied the lists.

In my case a source that would appear to be one more step away from
original had more info than the copy of the ships manifest that I got
through NARA.

The Balch institute that did the Germans To America series has my
ancestors complete names - but the NARA copies have just initials.
[and a different number of passengers]

Jim

Chris Watts

Re: Castle Garden database

Legg inn av Chris Watts » 19 nov 2007 22:00:28

"Jim Elbrecht" <elbrecht@email.com> wrote in message
news:g5n3k3dio147pp53hldi1mvht3uvc0js4i@4ax.com...
"Chris Watts" <ng@ctwatts.plus.com> wrote:

"singhals" <singhals@erols.com> wrote in message
news:f4-dnSi137eRXNzanZ2dnUVZ_jGdnZ2d@rcn.net...

-snip-
Was more than one copy of a document made in the 1850s?
Therein lies my question!


Yes- but the details escape me right now. . . .

Glad I asked the question on Usenet in 1999.- From that conversation
I see that the customs officials copied the lists.

In my case a source that would appear to be one more step away from
original had more info than the copy of the ships manifest that I got
through NARA.

The Balch institute that did the Germans To America series has my
ancestors complete names - but the NARA copies have just initials.
[and a different number of passengers]

Jim

Thanks Jim,
I found your posting in the archives and the replies seem to explain the
situation.
As yet I have not found a good guide to the Historical Society of
Pensylvania (which has now absorbed the Balch Institute) that identifies
their holding to a detailed level.

Chris

James A. Doemer

Re: Castle Garden database

Legg inn av James A. Doemer » 20 nov 2007 02:25:55

In News f4-dnSi137eRXNzanZ2dnUVZ_jGdnZ2d@rcn.net,, singhals at
singhals@erols.com, typed this:

Chris Watts wrote:

"catalpa" <catalpa@entertab.org> wrote in message
news:kR40j.1089$K_3.944@trnddc03...

"Chris Watts" <ng@ctwatts.plus.com> wrote in message
news:uJ6dnRzXIPQC593anZ2dnUVZ8uGdnZ2d@bt.com...

Is anybody familiar with the source data underlying
castlegarden.org? I have searched it and found the arrival of an
ancestor (in 1853).
There is
no reference to the source records and no digitised version of the
record.
So where did it come from? I should, like all good researchers,
like to trace it back to the original source but don't know where
to look. I have searched ancestry.com' s "Passenger Lists of Vessels
Arriving at New
York, New York, 1820-1897"; (National Archives Microfilm
Publication M237,
675 rolls); Records of the U.S. Customs Service, Record Group 36;
National
Archives, Washington, D.C. The same family is there but the
passenger list
does not contain all the information that is to be found in the
Castle Garden database - so that cannot be the source.

Can anybody help?
TIA
Chris Watts



The source should be the ship manifest as there is no other record
of arrival available that I am aware of. The castlegarden.org
database only has a very limited set of data for each individual as
the ship manifests of the time were rather simple.

From what I have seen the castlegarden.org database is different
from the ancestry.com database. For example, at ancestry.com I can
find Catha Cerny and sons Jan and Pal arriving 19 May 1893 from
Hungary on the Spree, but cannot find them at castlegarden.org. I
have the manifest page from ancestry.com and the names read clearly
for me. castlegarden.org did index the Spree for 19 May 1893, but
they either totally butchered these names or skipped this page in
the manifest.

Yes, what I have is an oddball here. It is not just a
transcription/indexing issue.
Castlegarden dot org has the family and their database includes the
occupations of all five of the party.
The ship's manifest to be found on ancestry dot com does NOT contain
that information for four of them - and I am looking at the image
not their transcript.
So the castlegarden info could not have come from the same document
as on ancestry - so where did it come from?

Chris




Does the Ancestry.com manifest show that data on ANYONE on
the ship?

Was more than one copy of a document made in the 1850s?

Cheryl

The only data I've ever seen on a 1850's ship's passenger manifest are
columns for Name, Age, Occupation, The Country Which They Severally Belong,
The Country To Which The Intend To Become Inhabitants, Died On Voyage.

singhals

Re: Castle Garden database

Legg inn av singhals » 20 nov 2007 17:13:50

Jim Elbrecht wrote:

"Chris Watts" <ng@ctwatts.plus.com> wrote:


"singhals" <singhals@erols.com> wrote in message
news:f4-dnSi137eRXNzanZ2dnUVZ_jGdnZ2d@rcn.net...


-snip-

Was more than one copy of a document made in the 1850s?

Therein lies my question!



Yes- but the details escape me right now. . . .

Glad I asked the question on Usenet in 1999.- From that conversation
I see that the customs officials copied the lists.

In my case a source that would appear to be one more step away from
original had more info than the copy of the ships manifest that I got
through NARA.

The Balch institute that did the Germans To America series has my
ancestors complete names - but the NARA copies have just initials.
[and a different number of passengers]

Jim

OK! I knew I'd read it somewhere but I couldn't find it.

Thanks for the cite, Jim.

Cheryl

singhals

Re: Castle Garden database

Legg inn av singhals » 20 nov 2007 17:15:39

James A. Doemer wrote:

In News f4-dnSi137eRXNzanZ2dnUVZ_jGdnZ2d@rcn.net,, singhals at
singhals@erols.com, typed this:


Chris Watts wrote:


"catalpa" <catalpa@entertab.org> wrote in message
news:kR40j.1089$K_3.944@trnddc03...


"Chris Watts" <ng@ctwatts.plus.com> wrote in message
news:uJ6dnRzXIPQC593anZ2dnUVZ8uGdnZ2d@bt.com...


Is anybody familiar with the source data underlying
castlegarden.org? I have searched it and found the arrival of an
ancestor (in 1853).
There is
no reference to the source records and no digitised version of the
record.
So where did it come from? I should, like all good researchers,
like to trace it back to the original source but don't know where
to look. I have searched ancestry.com' s "Passenger Lists of Vessels
Arriving at New
York, New York, 1820-1897"; (National Archives Microfilm
Publication M237,
675 rolls); Records of the U.S. Customs Service, Record Group 36;
National
Archives, Washington, D.C. The same family is there but the
passenger list
does not contain all the information that is to be found in the
Castle Garden database - so that cannot be the source.

Can anybody help?
TIA
Chris Watts



The source should be the ship manifest as there is no other record
of arrival available that I am aware of. The castlegarden.org
database only has a very limited set of data for each individual as
the ship manifests of the time were rather simple.

From what I have seen the castlegarden.org database is different
from the ancestry.com database. For example, at ancestry.com I can
find Catha Cerny and sons Jan and Pal arriving 19 May 1893 from
Hungary on the Spree, but cannot find them at castlegarden.org. I
have the manifest page from ancestry.com and the names read clearly
for me. castlegarden.org did index the Spree for 19 May 1893, but
they either totally butchered these names or skipped this page in
the manifest.

Yes, what I have is an oddball here. It is not just a
transcription/indexing issue.
Castlegarden dot org has the family and their database includes the
occupations of all five of the party.
The ship's manifest to be found on ancestry dot com does NOT contain
that information for four of them - and I am looking at the image
not their transcript.
So the castlegarden info could not have come from the same document
as on ancestry - so where did it come from?

Chris




Does the Ancestry.com manifest show that data on ANYONE on
the ship?

Was more than one copy of a document made in the 1850s?

Cheryl


The only data I've ever seen on a 1850's ship's passenger manifest are
columns for Name, Age, Occupation, The Country Which They Severally Belong,
The Country To Which The Intend To Become Inhabitants, Died On Voyage.



And when I've been lucky, more-than-two columns have been
filled it. I generally count my blessings with name and
age. (g) The few occupations I found turned out to be
3-day-old fish.

Cheryl

Chris Watts

Re: Castle Garden database

Legg inn av Chris Watts » 20 nov 2007 18:50:06

"Chris Watts" <ng@ctwatts.plus.com> wrote in message
news:e5-dnVcH5pk8ZNzanZ2dnUVZ8qijnZ2d@bt.com...
"Jim Elbrecht" <elbrecht@email.com> wrote in message
news:g5n3k3dio147pp53hldi1mvht3uvc0js4i@4ax.com...
"Chris Watts" <ng@ctwatts.plus.com> wrote:

"singhals" <singhals@erols.com> wrote in message
news:f4-dnSi137eRXNzanZ2dnUVZ_jGdnZ2d@rcn.net...

-snip-
Was more than one copy of a document made in the 1850s?
Therein lies my question!


Yes- but the details escape me right now. . . .

Glad I asked the question on Usenet in 1999.- From that conversation
I see that the customs officials copied the lists.

In my case a source that would appear to be one more step away from
original had more info than the copy of the ships manifest that I got
through NARA.

The Balch institute that did the Germans To America series has my
ancestors complete names - but the NARA copies have just initials.
[and a different number of passengers]

Jim

Thanks Jim,
I found your posting in the archives and the replies seem to explain the
situation.
As yet I have not found a good guide to the Historical Society of
Pensylvania (which has now absorbed the Balch Institute) that identifies
their holding to a detailed level.

Chris
Has anybody actually seen, or got copies, of the HSP (Balch) copies? Are

they amenable to enquiries? How much starting info do they need? What do
they charge?

Chris

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