Fw: Smoke and Mirrors ?

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Leo van de Pas

Fw: Smoke and Mirrors ?

Legg inn av Leo van de Pas » 07 nov 2007 12:56:49

Dear Mike Welch,

Trying to find _facts_ and asking questions is not hurling stones.
Richardson has already indicated that the line for Alice Freeman _might_ be
wrong. I don't care one way or the other, what I care for is _that an
effort_ is made to come to the correct conclusion. Throwing out red herrings
and then hiding in the tall grass, as someone we know would describe it, is
not helpful in the process of finding out what the situation is.

We must look at all aspects, and if questions need to be asked, well, let
them be asked. Especially if the person in question is standing on a
pedestal, he must make sure that he does not leave questions behind.

Making a suggestion one moment, and the next behaving as though it is fact,
is plainly rediculous.

To turn a Richarson phrase, we are here not to make friends but to establish
facts. If in the process friendships are made GREAT, but finding facts is
important, for you, for me, and above all for Richardson as he makes books
which he regularly advertises for sale on Gen-Med.

With best wishes
Leo van de Pas,
Canberra, Australia
..
----- Original Message -----
From: "rainman1x" <mwelch8442@yahoo.com>
Newsgroups: soc.genealogy.medieval
To: <gen-medieval@rootsweb.com>
Sent: Wednesday, November 07, 2007 9:36 PM
Subject: Re: Smoke and Mirrors ?


On Nov 6, 2:52 pm, "Leo van de Pas" <leovd...@netspeed.com.au> wrote:
Douglas Richardson seems to be jumping to conclusions.

First he dismisses the wives of Geoffrey de Say, then replaces them with
Hawise de Clare, then takes for granted she is a daughter of Richard de
Clare, Earl of Hertford, and Amice of Gloucester.

He maintains that CP XI page 470 has it wrong.

CP XIV pages 570, 571 do not show any changes in the aspect of the wives
of Magna Carta Geoffrey de Say.

On the website "Some corrections and additions to the Complete Peerage",
in regards to Volume 11, Say, agrees with Richardson that something is
wrong with the wives of Magna Carta Geoffrey de Say. But it simply says
that Georffrey is shown as married to (1) and (2) but (1) is wrong he
married "his second wife" Margery by November 1225. If this date is
correct then son William has enough time to be a father by about 1253.

There is no mention of Hawise de Clare, but as these specific pages were
updated last on 11 February 2003, is this their final word? At least for
the time being I presume.

In the sources Richardson supplies the closest we come to Hawise's
parentage is daughter of _____de Clare.

Sadly I can only access secondary sources. The at many times questionable
and wrong Burke's Extinct Peerage 1866, page 118
gives that Richard de Clare, Earl of Hertford and Amicia of Gloucester had
one son Gilbert and one daughter Joane who married Rhys-Grig, Prince of
South Wales.

ES III/1 Tafel 156 adds more to this. Here are shown two sons, Gilbert,
his heir, and Richard (Roger) murdered in London May 1228, and one
daughter Matilda who married (1) William de Braose (2) Rhys Gryg

My suggestion is that Joane and Matilda are one and the same
person-----------but there is still no Hawise.

And now Richardson has made Hawise one of the corner stones in his lineage
from Henry I to Alice Freeman.

Will Johnson has already made questionable another link in that line, and
so we must ask : How reliable is that lineage, no doubt, put together with
care by Richardson? Or has he posed his question a little too quick,
hoping others will save him the effort of going into detail?

With best wishes
Leo van de Pas
Canberra, Australia

Subj: Complete Peerage Addition: Hawise de Clare, wife of Geoffrey de
Say,
Magna Carta Baron
Date: 10/31/2007 5:10:19 PM Pacific Daylight Time
From: royalances...@msn.com (Douglas Richardson)
To: gen-medie...@rootsweb.com

The marital history of Geoffrey de Say (died 1230), the Magna Carta baron,
is
quite muddled in secondary sources. The authoritative Complete Peerage,
11
(1949): 470 (sub Say) states that Geoffrey de Say married (1st) Alice,
widow
of Hugh de Periers, and heiress and possibly daughter of John de Cheyney,
yet
contemporary records clearly show that Alice de Cheyne was actually this
Geoffrey's mother. He is likewise stated by C.P. to have married (2nd)
Margery
Briwerre, widow of [William] de la Ferté and Eudes de Dammartin, yet this
woman
appears to have been the second wife of his half-brother, Geoffrey de Say
(died
1265/71), of Rickling, Essex, Denham, Suffolk, etc. Rather, evidence
indicates that Geoffrey de Say actually married Hawise de Clare, daughter
of Richard
de Clare, Knt., Earl of Hertford, also a Magna Carta baron, by Amice, 2nd
daughter and co-heiress of William Fitz Robert, 2nd Earl of Gloucester.
Gerald
Paget, for instance, notes that Geoffrey de Say had scutage of the knights
fees
on 7 March 1215, which he held of the Earl of Clare in free-marriage [see
Paget, Baronage of England (1957) 485: 3-4, citing Cl. 16 John m. 7].
About 1235
Geoffrey's widow, Hawise de Clare, and their son, William de Say, jointly
issued a charter regarding property in Edmonton, Middlesex [see O'Connor
Cal. of
the Cartularies of John Pyel & Adam Fraunceys (Camden Soc. 5th Ser. 2)
(1993):
240]. Hawise de Clare was presumably named for her maternal grandmother,
Hawise, Countess of Gloucester.

Hawise de Clare's existence was evidently not totally unknown to earlier
historians and antiquarians, as I find that she is mentioned Brydges,
Collins'
Peerage of England 7 (1812): 16-39 (sub Twisleton, Lord Say and Sele)
where she
is called "Hawise, daughter of _____ de Clare" and placed as the wife of
an
earlier Geoffrey de Say.

.+ + + + + + + + + + +
SAY FAMILY

1. GEOFFREY DE SAY, of West Greenwich, Birling, Cudham, Keston, etc.,
Kent,
Leckhampstead, Buckinghamshire, Kimpton and Sawbridgeworth, Hertfordshire,
Edmonton, Middlesex, Hartwell, Northamptonshire, Allington, Hamsey,
Saddlecombe,
Streat, etc., Sussex, etc., 2nd but eldest surviving son of Geoffrey de
Say
(died 1214), of Edmonton, Middlesex, Sawbridgeworth, Hertfordshire, etc.,
Bailiff
of Arques, by his 1st wife, Alice (or Adelise) de Cheyne (widow of Hugh de
Periers, of Ditton Priors, Shropshire), and daughter and co-heiress of
John de
Cheyne, of Street, Brighton, and Hamsey, Sussex. He was probably born
about
1180. In the period, 1197-1198, he confirmed his father's grant of the
manor of
Rickling, Essex, to his half-brother, Geoffrey de Say. In 1198 he and his
father, Geoffrey de Say the elder, made a grant to the hospital of
Drincourt,
providing for prayers for the soul of Alice de Cheyne, mother of the
younger
Geoffrey. He married HAWISE DE CLARE, daughter of Richard de Clare, Knt.,
3rd
Earl of Hertford (but generally styled Earl of Clare), Magna Carta Baron,
by
Amice, 2nd daughter and co-heiress of William Fitz Robert, 2nd Earl of
Gloucester
[see CLARE 1 for her parentage]. They had three sons, William, Knt.,
Geoffrey, and John, Knt. In 1202 Ralph Tesson, Seneschal of Normandy, was
ordered to
see that Geoffrey de Say the younger had a hundred librates (of the money
of
Anjou) of the land of Juhel de Mayenne to replace the land which he had
lost
through the war. In 1208 the Sheriff of Kent was directed to put Geoffrey
de
Say the younger into possession of that moiety of the manor of Burn,
Sussex
which Ralph Tesson held. In 1214 he made fine in 400 marks to have his
father's
lands, and in the same year the sheriffs of Kent, Herts, Bucks, Sussex,
Middlesex, and Northampton had orders to give him seisin of the lands
which had
been his father's. He joined the confederacy of the barons against King
John.
He was one of the twenty-five barons elected to guarantee the observance
of
Magna Carta, signed by King John 15 June 1215. In Oct. 1215 the king gave
all of
Geoffrey's lands except the manor of West Greenwich, Kent to Peter de
Craon.
In Nov. 1215 Geoffrey de Say, Richard, Earl of Clare, Robert Fitz Walter,
and
the mayor and two or three or four citizens of London had letters of safe
conduct to speak with the Bishop of Winchester and others to treat of
peace
between the king and the barons. In July 1217 two of his knights had safe
conduct
to go to London as hostages. Having returned to fealty, he had
restoration
of his lands 14 Sept. 1217. He and Pernel Pirot renounced any claim in
the
advowson of Leckhampstead, Buckinghamshire before 1219. He went on
pilgrimage to
the Holy Land in 1219, and to Santiago de Compostella in Spain in 1223.
He
was present at the Siege of Bytham Castle in 1221. In 1222 he was granted
a
weekly fair at Sawbridgeworth, Hertfordshire. In 1224 he answered for 42
knights' fees in the scutage of Montgomery. In 1228 he gave the manor of
Saddlecombe, Sussex to the Templars. At an unknown date, he granted land
in Edmonton,
Middlesex to Ralph Silvan, together with a covenant not to alienate the
property to religious persons or Jews. By an undated charter, he granted
five acres
of land in West Greenwich, Kent to Symon de Thycheseia. At an unknown
date, he
confirmed the gift of his cousin, Walkelin Mamimot, to Bermondsey Abbey of
of
a rent-charge of 60 shillings per annum out of the lordship of Chippenham
in
Dillehurst. At an unknown date, he gave Alice Blund of Edmonton,
Middlesex ½
virgate of land which Reginald Fitz Ralph formerly held in the manor of
Edmonton of him, to be held by service of 5s. per annum. GEOFFREY DE SAY
died while
in service in Poitou 19 August 1230. He was buried at the Hospital of St.
Mary, Dover, Kent, to which he had given the manor of Coldred with his
body.
His widow, Hawise, joined their son, William de Clare, in a charter dated
c.1235
regarding property in Edmonton, Middlesex.

Brydges, Collins' Peerage of England 7 (1812): 16-39 (sub Twisleton, Lord
Say
and Sele) (identifies wife of Geoffrey de Say died 1230 as Alice,
"daughter
and co-heir of John de Caisneto, or Cheney," which Alice was actually his
mother; an earlier Geoffrey de Say is assigned a wife "Hawise, daughter
of _____
de Clare."). Dugdale, Monasticon Anglicanum 6(1) (1830): 657.
Clutterbuck,
Hist. & Antiqs. of Hertford 3 (1827): 194 (Say pedigree). Thomson, An
Hist.
Essay on the Magna Charta of King John (1829): 295 (biog. of Geoffrey de
Say).
Hardy Rotuli de liberate ac de misis et praestitis, regnante Johanne
(1844):
191, 207, 216, 228, 229. Eyton, Antiquities of Shropshire 3 (1856):
331-333.
Top. & Gen. 3 (1858): 1-4 (erroneously identified wife as "Alice, daughter
of
John de Cheney"). Paris, Chronica Majora 2 (Rolls Ser. 57) (1874):
604-605.
Desc. Cat. of Ancient Deeds 2 (1894): 30 (A. 2035). Round, Cal. of Docs.
Preserved in France 1 (1899): no. 280. C.P.R. 1216-1225 (1901): 369.
Misc. Gen. &
Heraldica 4th Ser. 3 (1910): 313-317. Phillimore, Rotuli Hugonis de
Welles
Episcopi Lincolniensis A.D. MCCIX-MCCXXXV 1 (Lincoln Rec. Soc. 3) (1912):
109-110. VCH Hertford 3 (1912): 29-33, 332-347. Genealogist n.s. 34
(1918):
181-189. Sussex Arch. Colls. 65 (1924): 20-53 (re. Cheyney family).
Farrer,
Honors & Knights' Fees 3 (1925): 226, 313-322. VCH Buckingham 4 (1927):
181 (Say
arms: Quarterly or and sable). C.P. 11 (1949): 468-470 (sub Say).
Hatton,
Book of Seals (1950): 325-326. Paget, Baronage of England (1957) 485: 1-10
(sub
Say). Sanders, English Baronies (1960): 98. Curia Regis Rolls 14 (1961):
327,
332-333; 15 (1972): 110, 366, 384. VCH Sussex 7 (1940): 114. Hethe, Reg.
Hamonis Hethe Diocesis Roffensis 1 (Canterbury & York Soc. 48) (1948): 24.
Burman, The Templars: Knights of God (1990): 96. O'Connor, Cal. of the
Cartularies of John Pyel & Adam Fraunceys (Camden Soc. 5th Ser. 2) (1993):
221, 240
(charter of William son of Geoffrey de Say and Hawise de Clare). VCH
Northampton
5 (2002): 176-197. Corporation of London Records Office: Bridge House
Estates, Reference: CLA/007/EM/02/F/014 (undated charter of Geoffey de Say
to Symon
de Thycheseia) (abstract of document available online
athttp://www.a2a.org.uk/search/index.asp).

Children of Geoffrey de Say, by Hawise de Clare:

i. WILLIAM DE SAY, Knt., son and heir.

ii. GEOFFREY DE SAY. On 14 October 1246 Geoffrey de Say "brother of
William
de Say" gave a bond to Aaron son of Abraham the Jew for £30, a moiety to
be
paid at the quinzaine of Michaelmas next, and the other moiety at the same
term
next following. Desc. Cat. of Ancient Deeds 3 (1900): 447.

iii. JOHN DE SAY, Knt. He witnessed a charter of his brother, William de
Say, after 1264. He is possibly the John de Say whose heir in 1302 at
Frant,
Sussex was William de Bromfeld. Arch. Cantiana 5 (1863): 221-222. Feudal
Aids
5 (1908): 132.

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See what's new athttp://www.ao

One moment you Praise the next you hurled stones. Will Johnson is
wrong on this so I throw his evidence out the window.

Mike Welch


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