Okay, this is a real shot in the dark, but here goes...

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Scruffy McScruffovitch

Okay, this is a real shot in the dark, but here goes...

Legg inn av Scruffy McScruffovitch » 14 sep 2007 00:19:25

Okay, I am looking for a newspaper man that was from Canada, and came to
Detroit.by the name of Matt Kramer. The early 1800's time frame. He was
married to a unknown Doemer woman, who would have been my 4th Great
Grandaunt. They had a son, Frank Kramer who has been said to have become a
cartoonist. Any ideas?

Hugh Watkins

Re: Okay, this is a real shot in the dark, but here goes...

Legg inn av Hugh Watkins » 14 sep 2007 01:59:29

Scruffy McScruffovitch wrote:

Okay, I am looking for a newspaper man that was from Canada, and came to
Detroit.by the name of Matt Kramer. The early 1800's time frame. He
was married to a unknown Doemer woman, who would have been my 4th Great
Grandaunt. They had a son, Frank Kramer who has been said to have
become a cartoonist. Any ideas?


post the decendancy as far back as you can

don't try and make backward jumps

read some old newspapers for the town and look for by-lines and obiuaries

Hugh W

--
For genealogy and help with family and local history in Bristol and
district http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Brycgstow/

http://snaps4.blogspot.com/ photographs and walks

GENEALOGE http://hughw36.blogspot.com/ MAIN BLOG

Scruffy McScruffovitch

Re: Okay, this is a real shot in the dark, but here goes...

Legg inn av Scruffy McScruffovitch » 14 sep 2007 03:05:06

"Hugh Watkins" <hugh.watkins@gmail.com> wrote in message news:5ku4niF5ise1U1@mid.individual.net...
Scruffy McScruffovitch wrote:

Okay, I am looking for a newspaper man that was from Canada, and came to
Detroit.by the name of Matt Kramer. The early 1800's time frame. He
was married to a unknown Doemer woman, who would have been my 4th Great
Grandaunt. They had a son, Frank Kramer who has been said to have
become a cartoonist. Any ideas?


post the decendancy as far back as you can

don't try and make backward jumps

read some old newspapers for the town and look for by-lines and obiuaries

Hugh W


Right after I posted that I found the family in the 1880 U.S. Census. It makes some sense when compared to the hand drawn chart created by a distant cousin, but it's sort of out of time whack. In order for Eva to be "Eva Doemer" in the generation indicated by that cousin, Eva's mother, Aloysia, would have had to start bearing children in 1814, and had Eva in 1835. Not beyond the realm of possibility I guess. Additionally, the Census indicatges that Eva was born in Michigan, and I know that her supposed parents never came here. That could simply be an error on the part of the Census taker though.

Household:

Name Relation Marital Status Gender Race Age Birthplace Occupation Father's Birthplace Mother's Birthplace
Mat KRAMER Self M Male W 48 GER Newspaper Man GER GER
Eva KRAMER Wife M Female W 45 MI Keeps House GER GER
Mat KRAMER Son S Male W 21 MI Sells Stationary GER MI
Cecilia KRAMER Dau S Female W 19 MI At Home GER MI
Frank KRAMER Son S Male W 17 MI Printer GER MI
Louis KRAMER Son S Male W 13 MI At School GER MI
Charles KRAMER Son S Male W 11 MI At School GER MI
Eva KRAMER Dau S Female W 9 MI GER MI
Olive KRAMER Dau S Female W 6 MI GER MI
Florence KRAMER Dau S Female W 3 MI GER MI
Minnie WAINHEIFEN Other S Female W 21 GER Servant GER GER
Philip KRAMER Father W Male W 79 GER At Home GER GER






--
For genealogy and help with family and local history in Bristol and
district http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Brycgstow/

http://snaps4.blogspot.com/ photographs and walks

GENEALOGE http://hughw36.blogspot.com/ MAIN BLOG

Huntersglenn

Re: Okay, this is a real shot in the dark, but here goes...

Legg inn av Huntersglenn » 14 sep 2007 03:18:06

I can find a Matthias Kramer, born Hesse, who started out as a printer
and then was a publisher (the 1870 census indicates that he was
Publisher of Journal). Wife was Eva and one of his sons was named
Frank. But the time period is more mid-1800s. He was born about 1833.

I searched on ancestry for Kramers in the early 1800s and there was no
result for a Matt Kramer. In 1850 he shows up, apparently with his
parents. In 1860, he's with his wife, Eva, who was born in Michigan.
They were all living in Detroit.

Let me know if you think this might be your man/family and I'll get the
census details to you. The 1870 Census is on the Wayne County GenWeb site.

Cathy

Scruffy McScruffovitch wrote:
Okay, I am looking for a newspaper man that was from Canada, and came to
Detroit.by the name of Matt Kramer. The early 1800's time frame. He
was married to a unknown Doemer woman, who would have been my 4th Great
Grandaunt. They had a son, Frank Kramer who has been said to have
become a cartoonist. Any ideas?

Scruffy McScruffovitch

Re: Okay, this is a real shot in the dark, but here goes...

Legg inn av Scruffy McScruffovitch » 14 sep 2007 03:23:02

Yes, that sounds like them, please send them to me and thanks!

"Huntersglenn" <huntersglenn@cox.net> wrote in message
news:zcmGi.300375$5y.277137@newsfe18.lga...
I can find a Matthias Kramer, born Hesse, who started out as a printer and
then was a publisher (the 1870 census indicates that he was Publisher of
Journal). Wife was Eva and one of his sons was named Frank. But the time
period is more mid-1800s. He was born about 1833.

I searched on ancestry for Kramers in the early 1800s and there was no
result for a Matt Kramer. In 1850 he shows up, apparently with his
parents. In 1860, he's with his wife, Eva, who was born in Michigan. They
were all living in Detroit.

Let me know if you think this might be your man/family and I'll get the
census details to you. The 1870 Census is on the Wayne County GenWeb
site.

Cathy

Scruffy McScruffovitch wrote:
Okay, I am looking for a newspaper man that was from Canada, and came to
Detroit.by the name of Matt Kramer. The early 1800's time frame. He was
married to a unknown Doemer woman, who would have been my 4th Great
Grandaunt. They had a son, Frank Kramer who has been said to have
become a cartoonist. Any ideas?

Huntersglenn

Re: Okay, this is a real shot in the dark, but here goes...

Legg inn av Huntersglenn » 14 sep 2007 03:51:11

Scruffy McScruffovitch wrote:


Right after I posted that I found the family in the 1880 U.S. Census.
It makes some sense when compared to the hand drawn chart created by a
distant cousin, but it's sort of out of time whack. In order for Eva
to be "Eva Doemer" in the generation indicated by that cousin, Eva's
mother, Aloysia, would have had to start bearing children in 1814, and
had Eva in 1835. Not beyond the realm of possibility I guess.

There's 18 years between my oldest and youngest uncles, and on my

grandmother's side, her oldest uncle was born in 1870 and the youngest
in that family was born in 1897 (some of my great aunts were older than
their own aunts), so it is possible that Aloysia was bearing children
for that length of time. Also possible that the distant cousin erred.

Cathy

Huntersglenn

Re: Okay, this is a real shot in the dark, but here goes...

Legg inn av Huntersglenn » 14 sep 2007 04:28:37

I saw where you found them in 1880, so I won't include that one.

Year: 1850; Census Place: Detroit, Wayne, Michigan; Roll: M432_365;
Page: 150
Philip Kramer, 48, Tailor, born Germany
Elizabeth, 47, born Germany
Philip, 20, Carpenter, born Germany
Mathew, 17, Printer, born Germany
John, 15, born Germany
John W. or John H., 11, born Germany
Christine, 13, born Germany
Andrew, 3, born Michigan

I did a search for an Eva for 1850, Wayne County and only found one
person, an Eva Patrick, born 1847.

Year: 1860; Census Place: Detroit Ward 4, Wayne, Michigan; Roll:
M653_565; Page: 0

Math. Kramer, 27, Printer, born Hessie
Eva, 23, born Michigan
Mary, 3, born Michigan
Alexander, 1, born Michigan
Susan Maledon, 15, servant, born Michigan

Year: 1870; Census Place: Detroit Ward 7, Wayne, Michigan; Roll:
M593_714; Page: 36

Kramer, Mathias, 35, Publisher of Journal, born Hesse Darmstadt
Eva, 32, Keeping House, born Michigan
Maria, 13, At School, born Michigan
Mathias, 11, At School, born Michigan
Cicilia, 9, born Michigan
Frank, 7, born Michigan
Louis, 3, born Michigan
Charles, 11/12, born Michigan

Mathias is deceased by the 1900 Federal Census - Eva is head of the
household then.
Year: 1900; Census Place: Detroit Ward 5, Wayne, Michigan; Roll: T623
748; Page: 5B; Enumeration District: 45
Kramer, Eva, 63, Nov 1836, has that she was married for 40 years, but
then the enumerator marked through the 40. Had 11 children, 10 still
living, born Michigan, parents born Germany
Louis P., son, 32, Mar 1868, single, born Michigan, father born Germany,
mother born Michigan, Printer
Charles A., son, 30, June 1870, single, born Michigan, father born
Germany, mother born Michigan, Printer
Olivia M., daughter, 25, May 1875, born Michigan, father born Germany,
mother born Michigan
? R., daughter, 21, May 1879, born Michigan, father born Germany, mother
born Michigan
Richard, son, 18, Sept 1881, born Michigan, father born Germany, mother
born Michigan, ? clerk

Eva was still alive as of the 1910 census, with all of the children
shown in 1900 living with her except for Charles, who was married by
then and living in the next household.

Year: 1910; Census Place: Detroit Ward 5, Wayne, Michigan; Roll:
T624_681; Page: 12B; Enumeration District: 65


I don't find an Eva Kramer in Detroit in the 1920 census, but there is
an Eva Kramer, aged 87, born Germany, living with her daughter and
son-in-law in Ionia County, Michigan. The son-in-law and daughter are
Charles and Frances Haller, ages 59 and 58, respectively. If the 'M' is
for Maria, then this could be the right Eva. The household next door is
that of F. M. and Florence Early, with Florence being shown as 40, which
would fit for Eva's daughter Florence.


Frank Kramer is married as of the 1900 Census, but I can't read his
occupation. It doesn't look like illustrator or cartoonist, but that
could be something he did later in life or in his spare time. He
married a widow, Agness Schen (she had a daughter) and they're in the
1900 and 1910 censuses for Wayne County, but then I can't find them in 1920.

The info for them is:
Year: 1900; Census Place: Detroit Ward 7, Wayne, Michigan; Roll: T623
749; Page: 3B; Enumeration District: 70

Year: 1910; Census Place: Detroit Ward 7, Wayne, Michigan; Roll:
T624_682; Page: 15A; Enumeration District: 96
(in 1910 he's shown as working for the railroad)

Hope that helps. I don't know when Michigan began keeping death
records, but hopefully Eva died after that started and maybe her maiden
name is on hers?

Cathy


Scruffy McScruffovitch wrote:

Yes, that sounds like them, please send them to me and thanks!


Scruffy McScruffovitch

Re: Okay, this is a real shot in the dark, but here goes...

Legg inn av Scruffy McScruffovitch » 14 sep 2007 13:13:13

Michigan started keeping death records about 1875, before that time you have
to go to the individual county, some of which kept death records prior to
that, some of them didn't. I think Wayne County has partial records going
back as far as 1840. The problem is that unless you know when a person died
within a three year window, you could keep tossing money at it and never
find it. Thanks for all of your work there, I really appreciate it.

"Huntersglenn" <huntersglenn@cox.net> wrote in message
news:GenGi.72739$rH6.26494@newsfe22.lga...
I saw where you found them in 1880, so I won't include that one.

Year: 1850; Census Place: Detroit, Wayne, Michigan; Roll: M432_365; Page:
150
Philip Kramer, 48, Tailor, born Germany
Elizabeth, 47, born Germany
Philip, 20, Carpenter, born Germany
Mathew, 17, Printer, born Germany
John, 15, born Germany
John W. or John H., 11, born Germany
Christine, 13, born Germany
Andrew, 3, born Michigan

I did a search for an Eva for 1850, Wayne County and only found one
person, an Eva Patrick, born 1847.

Year: 1860; Census Place: Detroit Ward 4, Wayne, Michigan; Roll: M653_565;
Page: 0

Math. Kramer, 27, Printer, born Hessie
Eva, 23, born Michigan
Mary, 3, born Michigan
Alexander, 1, born Michigan
Susan Maledon, 15, servant, born Michigan

Year: 1870; Census Place: Detroit Ward 7, Wayne, Michigan; Roll: M593_714;
Page: 36

Kramer, Mathias, 35, Publisher of Journal, born Hesse Darmstadt
Eva, 32, Keeping House, born Michigan
Maria, 13, At School, born Michigan
Mathias, 11, At School, born Michigan
Cicilia, 9, born Michigan
Frank, 7, born Michigan
Louis, 3, born Michigan
Charles, 11/12, born Michigan

Mathias is deceased by the 1900 Federal Census - Eva is head of the
household then.
Year: 1900; Census Place: Detroit Ward 5, Wayne, Michigan; Roll: T623 748;
Page: 5B; Enumeration District: 45
Kramer, Eva, 63, Nov 1836, has that she was married for 40 years, but then
the enumerator marked through the 40. Had 11 children, 10 still living,
born Michigan, parents born Germany
Louis P., son, 32, Mar 1868, single, born Michigan, father born Germany,
mother born Michigan, Printer
Charles A., son, 30, June 1870, single, born Michigan, father born
Germany, mother born Michigan, Printer
Olivia M., daughter, 25, May 1875, born Michigan, father born Germany,
mother born Michigan
? R., daughter, 21, May 1879, born Michigan, father born Germany, mother
born Michigan
Richard, son, 18, Sept 1881, born Michigan, father born Germany, mother
born Michigan, ? clerk

Eva was still alive as of the 1910 census, with all of the children shown
in 1900 living with her except for Charles, who was married by then and
living in the next household.

Year: 1910; Census Place: Detroit Ward 5, Wayne, Michigan; Roll: T624_681;
Page: 12B; Enumeration District: 65


I don't find an Eva Kramer in Detroit in the 1920 census, but there is an
Eva Kramer, aged 87, born Germany, living with her daughter and son-in-law
in Ionia County, Michigan. The son-in-law and daughter are Charles and
Frances Haller, ages 59 and 58, respectively. If the 'M' is for Maria,
then this could be the right Eva. The household next door is that of F.
M. and Florence Early, with Florence being shown as 40, which would fit
for Eva's daughter Florence.


Frank Kramer is married as of the 1900 Census, but I can't read his
occupation. It doesn't look like illustrator or cartoonist, but that
could be something he did later in life or in his spare time. He married
a widow, Agness Schen (she had a daughter) and they're in the 1900 and
1910 censuses for Wayne County, but then I can't find them in 1920.

The info for them is:
Year: 1900; Census Place: Detroit Ward 7, Wayne, Michigan; Roll: T623 749;
Page: 3B; Enumeration District: 70

Year: 1910; Census Place: Detroit Ward 7, Wayne, Michigan; Roll:
T624_682; Page: 15A; Enumeration District: 96
(in 1910 he's shown as working for the railroad)

Hope that helps. I don't know when Michigan began keeping death records,
but hopefully Eva died after that started and maybe her maiden name is on
hers?

Cathy


Scruffy McScruffovitch wrote:

Yes, that sounds like them, please send them to me and thanks!

Gjest

Re: Okay, this is a real shot in the dark, but here goes...

Legg inn av Gjest » 15 sep 2007 15:17:48

OP noted that Eva's mother, Aloysia, would have had to start bearing
children in 1814, and
had Eva in 1835. Not beyond the realm of possibility I guess.

Mary responds: Entirely possible. A sexually active healthy woman who
starts having kids in her late teens or early 20's and uses no birth
control will often have a pregnancy approximately every 2 years, until
her fertility gives out - right up to age 50 or so. Breastfeeding
suppresses fertility to give that kind of biological spacing.

The family members I have good records for in the time frame you
mention frequently had children over a 20-30 year period (and
obviously, we can't have records for the lost pregnancies that didn't
result in a live birth).

M.

Henry Brownlee

Re: Okay, this is a real shot in the dark, but here goes...

Legg inn av Henry Brownlee » 15 sep 2007 16:44:16

<Mary_Gordon@tvo.org> wrote in message
news:1189865868.446909.250460@o80g2000hse.googlegroups.com...

OP noted that Eva's mother, Aloysia, would have had to start bearing
children in 1814, and
had Eva in 1835. Not beyond the realm of possibility I guess.

Mary responds: Entirely possible. A sexually active healthy woman who
starts having kids in her late teens or early 20's and uses no birth
control will often have a pregnancy approximately every 2 years, until
her fertility gives out - right up to age 50 or so. Breastfeeding
suppresses fertility to give that kind of biological spacing.

The family members I have good records for in the time frame you
mention frequently had children over a 20-30 year period (and
obviously, we can't have records for the lost pregnancies that didn't
result in a live birth).

M.
<

Good observation! Not at all uncommon in South Louisiana for women to have
borne children over a 20 - 25 - even 30-year span (well, that one may not be
as common!). Several times I found one of the eldest of a "generation"
married to a younger member of the previous generation - which makes you
think at first they are both from the same "generation." I put people I
don't have the parentage for in what I think is the proper generation for
that surname, only to find that when I locate the parents (Whoppee!) I have
to move them to another.

Another confusing result is that some of the progeny are older than their
aunts and uncles.

Henry F. Brownlee
Hunting Forebears

Austin W. Spencer

Re: Okay, this is a real shot in the dark, but here goes...

Legg inn av Austin W. Spencer » 16 sep 2007 03:35:58

On Sep 14, 8:13 am, "Scruffy McScruffovitch" <Scruff...@FAM.NET>
wrote:
Michigan started keeping death records about 1875, before that time you have
to go to the individual county, some of which kept death records prior to
that, some of them didn't. I think Wayne County has partial records going
back as far as 1840. The problem is that unless you know when a person died
within a three year window, you could keep tossing money at it and never
find it. Thanks for all of your work there, I really appreciate it.

To be exact, the year in which Michigan counties began keeping birth
and death records was 1867. These records were usually kept in
registers, and they are usually available on FHL microfilm up to at
least 1900. I much prefer working with these over sending to the state
and county bureaus.

The link below should lead to a list of FHL's microfilms of death
records for Wayne County. Unfortunately, the volume for Wayne County
is quite large, and there does not seem to be an index.

<http://www.familysearch.org/Eng/Library/fhlcatalog/
supermainframeset.asp?display=titlefilmnotes&columns=*
%2C0%2C0&titleno=279018&disp=Death+records%2C+1867-1917++>

Records before 1867 are more likely to be recorded in a church or
newspaper.

Austin W. Spencer

Scruffy McScruffovitch

Re: Okay, this is a real shot in the dark, but here goes...

Legg inn av Scruffy McScruffovitch » 16 sep 2007 03:38:57

<Mary_Gordon@tvo.org> wrote in message
news:1189865868.446909.250460@o80g2000hse.googlegroups.com...
OP noted that Eva's mother, Aloysia, would have had to start bearing
children in 1814, and
had Eva in 1835. Not beyond the realm of possibility I guess.

Mary responds: Entirely possible. A sexually active healthy woman who
starts having kids in her late teens or early 20's and uses no birth
control will often have a pregnancy approximately every 2 years, until
her fertility gives out - right up to age 50 or so. Breastfeeding
suppresses fertility to give that kind of biological spacing.

The family members I have good records for in the time frame you
mention frequently had children over a 20-30 year period (and
obviously, we can't have records for the lost pregnancies that didn't
result in a live birth).



My 2nd Great Grandparents, married in Morgan County, Kentucky, married 20
May, 1869, William T. and Dianna Lawson. I spent years trying to figure
out what her maiden name was. As it turned out, it was Lawson. She was
actually his half Aunt. Diannah's father was John Lawson, who had married
twice and had children from 1814 until 1852 and maybe beyond that I don't
know about. Dianna married her half-Brother Joseph Lawson's son.

I spent some time being somewhat weirded out by this.

ecunningham

Re: Okay, this is a real shot in the dark, but here goes...

Legg inn av ecunningham » 16 sep 2007 21:08:34

Austin W. Spencer wrote:
On Sep 14, 8:13 am, "Scruffy McScruffovitch" <Scruff...@FAM.NET
wrote:

Michigan started keeping death records about 1875, before that time you have
to go to the individual county, some of which kept death records prior to
that, some of them didn't. I think Wayne County has partial records going
back as far as 1840. The problem is that unless you know when a person died
within a three year window, you could keep tossing money at it and never
find it. Thanks for all of your work there, I really appreciate it.

The link below should lead to a list of FHL's microfilms of death
records for Wayne County. Unfortunately, the volume for Wayne County
is quite large, and there does not seem to be an index.

Austin & Scruffy: This might help:

http://www.mdch.state.mi.us/pha/osr/gendisx/search2.htm

ecunningham@att.net

Scruffy McScruffovitch

Re: Okay, this is a real shot in the dark, but here goes...

Legg inn av Scruffy McScruffovitch » 16 sep 2007 23:19:38

"ecunningham" <ecunningham@att.net> wrote in message
news:c8gHi.126$Rx2.61@newsfe12.lga...
Austin W. Spencer wrote:
On Sep 14, 8:13 am, "Scruffy McScruffovitch" <Scruff...@FAM.NET
wrote:

Michigan started keeping death records about 1875, before that time you
have
to go to the individual county, some of which kept death records prior to
that, some of them didn't. I think Wayne County has partial records
going
back as far as 1840. The problem is that unless you know when a person
died
within a three year window, you could keep tossing money at it and never
find it. Thanks for all of your work there, I really appreciate it.

The link below should lead to a list of FHL's microfilms of death
records for Wayne County. Unfortunately, the volume for Wayne County
is quite large, and there does not seem to be an index.

Austin & Scruffy: This might help:

http://www.mdch.state.mi.us/pha/osr/gendisx/search2.htm

ecunningham@att.net

It's not very complete. None of my relatives that I know died during that
period in Wayne County is in there.

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