Translation- 1653 CT English to modern US English

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Jim Elbrecht

Translation- 1653 CT English to modern US English

Legg inn av Jim Elbrecht » 02 jun 2007 21:08:04

I'm reading "Witchcraft Delusion in Colonial Connecticut, 1647-1697"
By John Metcalf Taylor on Google
http://books.google.com/books?id=K4Tyhu ... 1-PA137,M1
[tinyurl;
http://tinyurl.com/2q7h86 ]
and on a text file from Gutenberg [it's searchable, but I don't have
complete confidence in the transcriptions]
http://www.gutenberg.org/etext/12288

On p137 the trial transcript of Goody Knapp, [convicted and hung for
witchcraft] says;
"Knapp replyed, goodman Lyon hold yor tongue, you know not what I
know, I haue ground for what I say, I haue bine fished wthall in
private more then you are aware of; "

"I have been 'fished wthall'??

The original text in Taylor's book has 'u's for 'v's and some other
affectations that I suspect are mis-transcriptions- but I can't tell
for the life of me what Knapp is saying here.


any thoughts?
Thanks,
Jim

Ron

Re: Translation- 1653 CT English to modern US English

Legg inn av Ron » 04 jun 2007 00:05:44

Jim Elbrecht wrote:

"Knapp replyed, goodman Lyon hold yor tongue, you know not what I
know, I haue ground for what I say, I haue bine fished wthall in
private more then you are aware of; "

"I have been 'fished wthall'??


In the sense that "fished" means "seek directly" and he says in private
- could he mean prayer - he actively sought God in those terrible events

--
Ron Lankshear - Sydney Aust (from London- Shepherds Bush & Chiswick)
http://freepages.rootsweb.com/~lankshear/

Jim Elbrecht

Re: Translation- 1653 CT English to modern US English

Legg inn av Jim Elbrecht » 04 jun 2007 02:13:52

On Mon, 04 Jun 2007 09:05:44 +1000, Ron <ronlank@hotmail.com> wrote:

Jim Elbrecht wrote:

-snip-
"I have been 'fished wthall'??


In the sense that "fished" means "seek directly" and he says in private
- could he mean prayer - he actively sought God in those terrible events

I don't think it would be prayer but my mind is still open- and that
usage of 'fished' had totally escaped me.

Interestingly I've gotten a couple replies privately-
Bernie from NZ offered; "It is possible that the word is "fashed", a
Scottish word meaning "angered" or "annoyed" or "troubled"; depending
on what went before, it's hard to say. "

And David wondered if it could be OCR errors. I thought the same
thing when i saw the transcription on project Gutenberg, but the
google book is scans of the original 1908 book. The phrase itself is
repeated in the table of contents so I don't think it is a typesetting
error either. [though I haven't ruled that out]

Thanks to all- but still seeking enlightement.

Jim

Jim Elbrecht

Re: Translation- 1653 CT English to modern US English

Legg inn av Jim Elbrecht » 04 jun 2007 02:13:52

On Mon, 04 Jun 2007 09:05:44 +1000, Ron <ronlank@hotmail.com> wrote:

Jim Elbrecht wrote:

-snip-
"I have been 'fished wthall'??


In the sense that "fished" means "seek directly" and he says in private
- could he mean prayer - he actively sought God in those terrible events

I don't think it would be prayer but my mind is still open- and that
usage of 'fished' had totally escaped me.

Interestingly I've gotten a couple replies privately-
Bernie from NZ offered; "It is possible that the word is "fashed", a
Scottish word meaning "angered" or "annoyed" or "troubled"; depending
on what went before, it's hard to say. "

And David wondered if it could be OCR errors. I thought the same
thing when i saw the transcription on project Gutenberg, but the
google book is scans of the original 1908 book. The phrase itself is
repeated in the table of contents so I don't think it is a typesetting
error either. [though I haven't ruled that out]

Thanks to all- but still seeking enlightement.

Jim

Jim Elbrecht

Re: Translation- 1653 CT English to modern US English

Legg inn av Jim Elbrecht » 04 jun 2007 02:13:52

On Mon, 04 Jun 2007 09:05:44 +1000, Ron <ronlank@hotmail.com> wrote:

Jim Elbrecht wrote:

-snip-
"I have been 'fished wthall'??


In the sense that "fished" means "seek directly" and he says in private
- could he mean prayer - he actively sought God in those terrible events

I don't think it would be prayer but my mind is still open- and that
usage of 'fished' had totally escaped me.

Interestingly I've gotten a couple replies privately-
Bernie from NZ offered; "It is possible that the word is "fashed", a
Scottish word meaning "angered" or "annoyed" or "troubled"; depending
on what went before, it's hard to say. "

And David wondered if it could be OCR errors. I thought the same
thing when i saw the transcription on project Gutenberg, but the
google book is scans of the original 1908 book. The phrase itself is
repeated in the table of contents so I don't think it is a typesetting
error either. [though I haven't ruled that out]

Thanks to all- but still seeking enlightement.

Jim

Christopher Jahn

Re: Translation- 1653 CT English to modern US English

Legg inn av Christopher Jahn » 04 jun 2007 03:26:32

Jim Elbrecht <elbrecht@email.com> wrote in
news:5ii363lh4j280ss3qmhm3fbl29jspnafk1@4ax.com:

"I have been 'fished wthall'??

The original text in Taylor's book has 'u's for 'v's and some
other affectations that I suspect are mis-transcriptions- but
I can't tell for the life of me what Knapp is saying here.


"Fished" then means what it does now, and "wthall" is likely
"withal"


FISH
verb
1 : to attempt to catch fish
2 : to seek something by roundabout means <fishing for a
compliment>
3 a : to search for something underwater <fish for pearls> b : to
engage in a search by groping or feeling <fishing around in her
purse for her keys>
transitive verb
1 a : to try to catch fish in b : to fish with : use (as a boat,
net, or bait) in fishing
2 a : to go fishing for <fish salmon> b : to pull or draw as if
fishing <fished the ball from under the car> <fish wires through
a conduit>

withal
Pronunciation: wi-'[th]ol, -'thol
Function: adverb
Etymology: Middle English, from with + all, al all
1 : together with this : BESIDES <a supporter of all constructive
work and withal an excellent businessman -- A. W. Long>
2 archaic : THEREWITH 1
3 : on the other hand : NEVERTHELESS


And that gives us:
"Knapp replyed, goodman Lyon hold yor tongue, you know not what I
know, I have ground for what I say, I have been [seeking]
[therewith] in private more then you are aware of; "

Goody Knapp is saying that she believes that Goody Stayples has
accused her of witchcraft because Knapp has been quietly asking
her neighbors about that testimony.

--
}:-) Christopher Jahn
{:-( http://home.comcast.net/~xjahn/Main.html
http://camera-ephemera.blogspot.com/
pulled out a pair of pliers and pulled a bullet out of my chest

Hugh Watkins

Re: Translation- 1653 CT English to modern US English

Legg inn av Hugh Watkins » 04 jun 2007 08:25:32

Jim Elbrecht wrote:

On Mon, 04 Jun 2007 09:05:44 +1000, Ron <ronlank@hotmail.com> wrote:


Jim Elbrecht wrote:


-snip-

"I have been 'fished wthall'??


In the sense that "fished" means "seek directly" and he says in private
- could he mean prayer - he actively sought God in those terrible events


I don't think it would be prayer but my mind is still open- and that
usage of 'fished' had totally escaped me.

Interestingly I've gotten a couple replies privately-
Bernie from NZ offered; "It is possible that the word is "fashed", a
Scottish word meaning "angered" or "annoyed" or "troubled"; depending
on what went before, it's hard to say. "

And David wondered if it could be OCR errors. I thought the same
thing when i saw the transcription on project Gutenberg, but the
google book is scans of the original 1908 book. The phrase itself is
repeated in the table of contents so I don't think it is a typesetting
error either. [though I haven't ruled that out]

in 1908 scholarship of old english was patchy and often romantic

eg

ye olde tea room

"ye" = clerks abbreviation for "the" in MSS

what source did the 1908 book have?
where is the original ms form the trial?

Hugh W

--

a wonderful artist in Denmark
http://www.ingerlisekristoffersen.dk/

Beta blogger
http://snaps4.blogspot.com/ photographs and walks

old blogger GENEALOGE
http://hughw36.blogspot.com/ MAIN BLOG

Jim Elbrecht

Re: Translation- 1653 CT English to modern US English

Legg inn av Jim Elbrecht » 04 jun 2007 13:41:00

On Sun, 03 Jun 2007 21:26:32 -0500, Christopher Jahn <xjahn@yahoo.com>
wrote:

Jim Elbrecht <elbrecht@email.com> wrote in
news:5ii363lh4j280ss3qmhm3fbl29jspnafk1@4ax.com:

"I have been 'fished wthall'??

-snip-

"Fished" then means what it does now, and "wthall" is likely
"withal"

-snip-
And that gives us:
"Knapp replyed, goodman Lyon hold yor tongue, you know not what I
know, I have ground for what I say, I have been [seeking]
[therewith] in private more then you are aware of; "

Goody Knapp is saying that she believes that Goody Stayples has
accused her of witchcraft because Knapp has been quietly asking
her neighbors about that testimony.

Thank you-- That certainly makes sense. Sometimes things are
exactly what they seem.

Jim

Jim Elbrecht

Re: Translation- 1653 CT English to modern US English

Legg inn av Jim Elbrecht » 04 jun 2007 13:41:44

On Mon, 04 Jun 2007 08:25:32 +0100, Hugh Watkins
<hugh.watkins@gmail.com> wrote:


-snip-
in 1908 scholarship of old english was patchy and often romantic

That was my feeling, too- but I think Christopher may have nailed it

by using the KISS system.

eg

ye olde tea room

"ye" = clerks abbreviation for "the" in MSS

what source did the 1908 book have?
where is the original ms form the trial?

The author used a bibliography at the end rather than specific
footnotes. The bibliography includes about 70 sources ranging from
CT Archives & some probate records- to some recognized historians
[Bancroft, trumbull, Barber. . .] and run to a Longfellow play,
Hawthorne's "Scarlet Letter".

I think I'll leave the content of this one suspect- but the subject
matter is interesting.

Jim

jj206

Re: Translation- 1653 CT English to modern US English

Legg inn av jj206 » 01 jul 2007 21:43:11

Jim Elbrecht wrote:
I'm reading "Witchcraft Delusion in Colonial Connecticut, 1647-1697"
By John Metcalf Taylor on Google
http://books.google.com/books?id=K4Tyhu ... 1-PA137,M1
[tinyurl;
http://tinyurl.com/2q7h86 ]
and on a text file from Gutenberg [it's searchable, but I don't have
complete confidence in the transcriptions]
http://www.gutenberg.org/etext/12288

On p137 the trial transcript of Goody Knapp, [convicted and hung for
witchcraft] says;
"Knapp replyed, goodman Lyon hold yor tongue, you know not what I
know, I haue ground for what I say, I haue bine fished wthall in
private more then you are aware of; "

"I have been 'fished wthall'??

The original text in Taylor's book has 'u's for 'v's and some other
affectations that I suspect are mis-transcriptions- but I can't tell
for the life of me what Knapp is saying here.


Knapps wife said, goodman Lyon hold yor tongue, you know not so much as I
doe, you know not what hath bine said to me in private; and after they was
gon, of her owne accord, betweene she & I, goody Knapp said she knew
nothing against goodwife Staplyes of being a witch.

http://www.historicpelham.com/BlogArchi ... 060707.htm

Jonathan

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