Until recently the most comprehensive sources for Robert
Waterton (c. 1362-1425), Henry IV's henchman and master
of the horse, and longtime constable of Pontefract (not a
knight, _pace_ RPA p. 758), were H. Armstrong Hall, "Some
Notes on the Personal and Family History of Robert Waterton,
of Methley and Waterton," Publications of the Thoresby
Society 15:81 (1909), and J.W. Walker, "The Burghs of Cam-
bridgeshire and Yorkshire and the Watertons of Lincolnshire
and Yorkshire," Yorkshire Archaeological Journal 30:369 (1931).
Both articles say that the well-known Robert Waterton married
Cecily Fleming and had a son, also named Robert (whom I will
call the pseudo-Robert), who married Joan (Everingham) Ellis,
which younger couple had a son, a third Robert, and a daughter,
Joan (or Cecily), who married Leo, 6th Lord Welles, in 1417.
On this view the well-known Robert made his will (naming wife
Cecily) on Jan. 10, 1424/5 (set forth in Hall pp. 87-88), and his
death was followed "with dramatic suddenness" by that of his
son Robert (of whom nothing else whatever is recorded) on Jan.
17, 1424/5, according to his inquisitions post mortem, CIPM 22:
349-51. Robert's late wife Joan (Everingham) figures in the ipms
because Robert had held by curtesy the manors of Joan's first
husband, Sir William Ellis, and it had to be determined who the
heir of those manors was; it was found that he was Joan's son
Robert Ellis, aged 40 years and more in 1425. Walker's article
(though not Hall's) recognizes that the Robert of the ipms had
a later wife, Margaret (Clarell) Fitzwilliam, who survived him.
The age of Robert Ellis in 1425 is a strong pointer towards the
truth. Since he was born by 1385, his mother (Joan) would have
been a full generation older than her second husband if that
husband (the pseudo-Robert) was the son of Robert c. 1362-
1425. And in fact Joan appears to have been born in 1362/3; see
CP 5:193. Both the chronology and Occam's razor require that
the pseudo-Robert be expunged. One will, one death in Jan.
1424/5, one set of ipms = one Robert, who married (1) Joan
(Evereingham) Ellis, (2), between 1399 and 1403, Cecily Fleming,
(3), in 1422 or 1423, Margaret (Clarell) Fitzwilliam. While Robert's
will calls Cecily his wife, it does not say that she was then living;
if anything it implies the contrary, providing only for prayers and
memorials for Robert and Cecily. If it be objected that the will does
not mention Waterton's living wife, Margaret, it does not mention
his two children either; the only persons named in the will are the
executors, supervisors and witnesses.
Various records, mostly cited by Walker, show that Waterton
married Cecily between 1399 and 1403 and was still married to her
in 1412; she is said to have died in 1422, though I don't know what
the proof of that is. Waterton's son Robert, aged 16 in 1425, was
clearly hers. It seems less clear whether Joan or Cecily was the mother
of Lady Welles, since we seem to lack a record of her age at any
time. (Lady Welles is usually referred to cautiously as Joan or Cecily;
if she was Cecily that would strongly indicate that her mother was
Cecily also. But, while more-or-less original sources support both
versions, in my opinion the best are four ipms of John, 5th Lord
Welles, CIPM 21:306-07, which uniformly called her Joan.)
The sketch of Robert Waterton in the new ODNB is in accord with
the above analysis, though it does not supply its reasoning or
discuss conflicting views.
Joan Waterton, wife of Lord Welles - a CP contradiction?
Moderator: MOD_nyhetsgrupper
-
John Higgins
Re: Joan Waterton, wife of Lord Welles - a CP contradiction?
This is a very useful analysis of the marriages of Robert Waterton, which
clears up at least some of the confusion in this family. It seems that the
contradiction in CP regarding the maternity of the Joan or Cecily Waterton
who married Lord Welles still remains - probably to be unresolved for now.
I agree with you that the references in the IPMs of the 5th Lord Welles (the
grandfather of the husband of Joan/Cecily) would seem to make a good case
that her name was Joan (although I'd be curious about other "original"
sources that lean to Cecily). As you say, if she were named Cecily that
would be a strong argument for her mother being Cecily (and also fit well
with comments in another post regarding the names of the granddaughters of
Joan/Cecily). But I would tend to favor the IPMs over onomastic conjectures,
which can be pretty slippery in a case like this. If she was named Joan,
that wouldn't preclude her mother from being Cecily.....I guess we'll never
know....
----- Original Message -----
From: "Clagett, Brice" <bclagett@cov.com>
To: <GEN-MEDIEVAL-L@rootsweb.com>
Sent: Wednesday, December 29, 2004 9:07 AM
Subject: Joan Waterton, wife of Lord Welles - a CP contradiction?
clears up at least some of the confusion in this family. It seems that the
contradiction in CP regarding the maternity of the Joan or Cecily Waterton
who married Lord Welles still remains - probably to be unresolved for now.
I agree with you that the references in the IPMs of the 5th Lord Welles (the
grandfather of the husband of Joan/Cecily) would seem to make a good case
that her name was Joan (although I'd be curious about other "original"
sources that lean to Cecily). As you say, if she were named Cecily that
would be a strong argument for her mother being Cecily (and also fit well
with comments in another post regarding the names of the granddaughters of
Joan/Cecily). But I would tend to favor the IPMs over onomastic conjectures,
which can be pretty slippery in a case like this. If she was named Joan,
that wouldn't preclude her mother from being Cecily.....I guess we'll never
know....
----- Original Message -----
From: "Clagett, Brice" <bclagett@cov.com>
To: <GEN-MEDIEVAL-L@rootsweb.com>
Sent: Wednesday, December 29, 2004 9:07 AM
Subject: Joan Waterton, wife of Lord Welles - a CP contradiction?
Until recently the most comprehensive sources for Robert
Waterton (c. 1362-1425), Henry IV's henchman and master
of the horse, and longtime constable of Pontefract (not a
knight, _pace_ RPA p. 758), were H. Armstrong Hall, "Some
Notes on the Personal and Family History of Robert Waterton,
of Methley and Waterton," Publications of the Thoresby
Society 15:81 (1909), and J.W. Walker, "The Burghs of Cam-
bridgeshire and Yorkshire and the Watertons of Lincolnshire
and Yorkshire," Yorkshire Archaeological Journal 30:369 (1931).
Both articles say that the well-known Robert Waterton married
Cecily Fleming and had a son, also named Robert (whom I will
call the pseudo-Robert), who married Joan (Everingham) Ellis,
which younger couple had a son, a third Robert, and a daughter,
Joan (or Cecily), who married Leo, 6th Lord Welles, in 1417.
On this view the well-known Robert made his will (naming wife
Cecily) on Jan. 10, 1424/5 (set forth in Hall pp. 87-88), and his
death was followed "with dramatic suddenness" by that of his
son Robert (of whom nothing else whatever is recorded) on Jan.
17, 1424/5, according to his inquisitions post mortem, CIPM 22:
349-51. Robert's late wife Joan (Everingham) figures in the ipms
because Robert had held by curtesy the manors of Joan's first
husband, Sir William Ellis, and it had to be determined who the
heir of those manors was; it was found that he was Joan's son
Robert Ellis, aged 40 years and more in 1425. Walker's article
(though not Hall's) recognizes that the Robert of the ipms had
a later wife, Margaret (Clarell) Fitzwilliam, who survived him.
The age of Robert Ellis in 1425 is a strong pointer towards the
truth. Since he was born by 1385, his mother (Joan) would have
been a full generation older than her second husband if that
husband (the pseudo-Robert) was the son of Robert c. 1362-
1425. And in fact Joan appears to have been born in 1362/3; see
CP 5:193. Both the chronology and Occam's razor require that
the pseudo-Robert be expunged. One will, one death in Jan.
1424/5, one set of ipms = one Robert, who married (1) Joan
(Evereingham) Ellis, (2), between 1399 and 1403, Cecily Fleming,
(3), in 1422 or 1423, Margaret (Clarell) Fitzwilliam. While Robert's
will calls Cecily his wife, it does not say that she was then living;
if anything it implies the contrary, providing only for prayers and
memorials for Robert and Cecily. If it be objected that the will does
not mention Waterton's living wife, Margaret, it does not mention
his two children either; the only persons named in the will are the
executors, supervisors and witnesses.
Various records, mostly cited by Walker, show that Waterton
married Cecily between 1399 and 1403 and was still married to her
in 1412; she is said to have died in 1422, though I don't know what
the proof of that is. Waterton's son Robert, aged 16 in 1425, was
clearly hers. It seems less clear whether Joan or Cecily was the mother
of Lady Welles, since we seem to lack a record of her age at any
time. (Lady Welles is usually referred to cautiously as Joan or Cecily;
if she was Cecily that would strongly indicate that her mother was
Cecily also. But, while more-or-less original sources support both
versions, in my opinion the best are four ipms of John, 5th Lord
Welles, CIPM 21:306-07, which uniformly called her Joan.)
The sketch of Robert Waterton in the new ODNB is in accord with
the above analysis, though it does not supply its reasoning or
discuss conflicting views.