Question: St Anthony of Padua a relative of Godfrey of Bouil

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Esteban

Question: St Anthony of Padua a relative of Godfrey of Bouil

Legg inn av Esteban » 27 des 2004 19:07:11

I've been reading a (rather boring) hagiography of St Anthony. There it
says that Anthony's real name was Ferdinand (Fernando) Martins of
Bouillon, and that he was of the same family as the famous leader of
the First Crusade. Is that so?

Regards,

Esteban

Peter Stewart

Re: Question: St Anthony of Padua a relative of Godfrey of B

Legg inn av Peter Stewart » 28 des 2004 00:18:02

"Esteban" <fliatrento@yahoo.com.ar> wrote in message
news:1104170831.506095.201650@f14g2000cwb.googlegroups.com...
I've been reading a (rather boring) hagiography of St Anthony. There it
says that Anthony's real name was Ferdinand (Fernando) Martins of
Bouillon, and that he was of the same family as the famous leader of
the First Crusade. Is that so?

No - this was invented by the Franciscans at Padua more than 200 years after
the saint's death and has no foundation in evidence. His father is supposed
in this fantasy to have been Martin of Boullon and his mother a descendant
of kings of the Asturias.

St Anthony was born in Lisbon, baptised Ferrdinand, and his real ancestry is
unknown. It may be worth your trouble to seek out a library holding _Saint
Anthony of Padua According to His Contemporaries_ by Ernest Gilliat-Smith
(London & Toronto, 1926).

Peter Stewart

Esteban

Re: Question: St Anthony of Padua a relative of Godfrey of B

Legg inn av Esteban » 28 des 2004 13:05:26

Peter Stewart wrote:
"Esteban" <fliatrento@yahoo.com.ar> wrote in message
news:1104170831.506095.201650@f14g2000cwb.googlegroups.com...
I've been reading a (rather boring) hagiography of St Anthony.
There it
says that Anthony's real name was Ferdinand (Fernando) Martins of
Bouillon, and that he was of the same family as the famous leader
of
the First Crusade. Is that so?

No - this was invented by the Franciscans at Padua more than 200
years after
the saint's death and has no foundation in evidence. His father is
supposed
in this fantasy to have been Martin of Boullon and his mother a
descendant
of kings of the Asturias.

St Anthony was born in Lisbon, baptised Ferrdinand, and his real
ancestry is
unknown. It may be worth your trouble to seek out a library holding
_Saint
Anthony of Padua According to His Contemporaries_ by Ernest
Gilliat-Smith
(London & Toronto, 1926).

Peter Stewart
Thanks Peter. I'll try to find that book.


Best,

Esteban

Francisco Antonio Doria

Re: Question: St Anthony of Padua a relative of Godfrey of B

Legg inn av Francisco Antonio Doria » 31 des 2004 09:11:02

The immediate ancestry of St Anthony is quite well
known. His father was a minor nobleman, Martim
``Bulhão.'' Bulhão has two possible meanings: either a
small sword, or a kind of defensive knife, or bully (I
believe both words are etimologically related, bully
and bulhão). His mother was Teresa Taveira, a
descendant of the old Baião clan and (IIRR) the
daughter of well-known medieval poet Paio Soares
Taveira. Her tomb was a well described and revered
one, and an early, probably a 14th century
restoration, inscription still existed in the 19th
century. I have a 2-volume 19th century
well-researched biography of the Taumaturgo.

Let me add two things: my name Antonio dates from the
early 16th century, or possibly late 15th century,
when devotion of St Anthony began in Portugal - after
a chapel dedicated to him was built authorized by
Eugene IV. I'm the 11th Antonio in the direct line.

The family that represents in the Portuguese tradition
the original Bulhões of St Anthony are the Pinto de
Miranda Montenegro, which bear the titles of Counts of
Arroxelas and of Castelo de Paiva in Portugal, and
viscounts and marquesses de Vila Real da Praia Grande
in Brazil. They are my close cousins. They are
descended from the Ribeiro Soares de Bulhões family,
which is descended from the Saint's brother.

Happy New Year!

fa

--- Esteban <fliatrento@yahoo.com.ar> wrote:

Peter Stewart wrote:
"Esteban" <fliatrento@yahoo.com.ar> wrote in
message


news:1104170831.506095.201650@f14g2000cwb.googlegroups.com...
I've been reading a (rather boring) hagiography
of St Anthony.
There it
says that Anthony's real name was Ferdinand
(Fernando) Martins of
Bouillon, and that he was of the same family as
the famous leader
of
the First Crusade. Is that so?

No - this was invented by the Franciscans at Padua
more than 200
years after
the saint's death and has no foundation in
evidence. His father is
supposed
in this fantasy to have been Martin of Boullon and
his mother a
descendant
of kings of the Asturias.

St Anthony was born in Lisbon, baptised
Ferrdinand, and his real
ancestry is
unknown. It may be worth your trouble to seek out
a library holding
_Saint
Anthony of Padua According to His Contemporaries_
by Ernest
Gilliat-Smith
(London & Toronto, 1926).

Peter Stewart
Thanks Peter. I'll try to find that book.

Best,

Esteban





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Francisco Antonio Doria

Re: Question: St Anthony of Padua a relative of Godfrey of B

Legg inn av Francisco Antonio Doria » 31 des 2004 13:01:01

My source is:

F. Carlos das Neves, _Santo Antonio de Lisboa, o
Grande Thaumaturgo de Portugal_, 2 vols., Livraria
Catholica Portuense, Porto, 1898/99.

Second volume deals extensively with the Saint's
family.

The first generations in the family are:

1. Martim ``Bulhão,'' deduced from his son's
patronymic. Son:

2. Vicente Martins ``Bulhão.'' Son:

3. Martim ``Bulhão'' m. Teresa Paes Taveira, d. of
Paio Soares ``Romeu.''

He is attested between 1171-1177, and his wife, a
Portocarreiro lady, in 1176. Lineage books do not
mention Teresa Taveira as his daughter, but it is
certain that she was so called, and the only known
Taveira family was that descended from Paio Soares
Romeu.

Children:

- Fernão Martins ``Bulhão,'' St Anthony of Lisbon.

- Pedro Martins ``Bulhão'' attested in 1295 and given
as the saint's brother. With issue.

fa

--- Francisco Antonio Doria
<franciscoantoniodoria@yahoo.com.br> wrote:

The immediate ancestry of St Anthony is quite well
known. His father was a minor nobleman, Martim
``Bulhão.'' Bulhão has two possible meanings: either
a
small sword, or a kind of defensive knife, or bully
(I
believe both words are etimologically related, bully
and bulhão). His mother was Teresa Taveira, a
descendant of the old Baião clan and (IIRR) the
daughter of well-known medieval poet Paio Soares
Taveira. Her tomb was a well described and revered
one, and an early, probably a 14th century
restoration, inscription still existed in the 19th
century. I have a 2-volume 19th century
well-researched biography of the Taumaturgo.

Let me add two things: my name Antonio dates from
the
early 16th century, or possibly late 15th century,
when devotion of St Anthony began in Portugal -
after
a chapel dedicated to him was built authorized by
Eugene IV. I'm the 11th Antonio in the direct line.

The family that represents in the Portuguese
tradition
the original Bulhões of St Anthony are the Pinto de
Miranda Montenegro, which bear the titles of Counts
of
Arroxelas and of Castelo de Paiva in Portugal, and
viscounts and marquesses de Vila Real da Praia
Grande
in Brazil. They are my close cousins. They are
descended from the Ribeiro Soares de Bulhões family,
which is descended from the Saint's brother.

Happy New Year!

fa

--- Esteban <fliatrento@yahoo.com.ar> wrote:


Peter Stewart wrote:
"Esteban" <fliatrento@yahoo.com.ar> wrote in
message



news:1104170831.506095.201650@f14g2000cwb.googlegroups.com...
I've been reading a (rather boring)
hagiography
of St Anthony.
There it
says that Anthony's real name was Ferdinand
(Fernando) Martins of
Bouillon, and that he was of the same family
as
the famous leader
of
the First Crusade. Is that so?

No - this was invented by the Franciscans at
Padua
more than 200
years after
the saint's death and has no foundation in
evidence. His father is
supposed
in this fantasy to have been Martin of Boullon
and
his mother a
descendant
of kings of the Asturias.

St Anthony was born in Lisbon, baptised
Ferrdinand, and his real
ancestry is
unknown. It may be worth your trouble to seek
out
a library holding
_Saint
Anthony of Padua According to His
Contemporaries_
by Ernest
Gilliat-Smith
(London & Toronto, 1926).

Peter Stewart
Thanks Peter. I'll try to find that book.

Best,

Esteban





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Yahoo! Mail - Easier than ever with enhanced search.
Learn more.
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Peter Stewart

Re: Question: St Anthony of Padua a relative of Godfrey of B

Legg inn av Peter Stewart » 31 des 2004 13:02:00

"Francisco Antonio Doria" <franciscoantoniodoria@yahoo.com.br> wrote in
message news:20041231115259.24266.qmail@web30907.mail.mud.yahoo.com...
My source is:

F. Carlos das Neves, _Santo Antonio de Lisboa, o
Grande Thaumaturgo de Portugal_, 2 vols., Livraria
Catholica Portuense, Porto, 1898/99.

Second volume deals extensively with the Saint's
family.

The first generations in the family are:

1. Martim ``Bulhão,'' deduced from his son's
patronymic. Son:

2. Vicente Martins ``Bulhão.'' Son:

3. Martim ``Bulhão'' m. Teresa Paes Taveira, d. of
Paio Soares ``Romeu.''

Is just the exientence #1 with the forename Martim deduced, or also that he
too must have been surnamed 'Bulhão'?

Does your source discuss the alleged Bouillon ancestry that was put about by
Franciscans in the 15th century?

Peter Stewart

Francisco Antonio Doria

Re: Question: St Anthony of Padua a relative of Godfrey of B

Legg inn av Francisco Antonio Doria » 31 des 2004 14:11:02

Dear Peter,

Yes, you're right. I should have placed a [?] after
the Bulhão in the first two generations. My fault...
(It is corrected below.)

The Bouillon legend is mentioned, but not taken
seriously. The Taveira in St Anthony's mother is
attested, but the link is conjectural, even if the
options are very few, and chronology is ok.
Martim/Martinus is quite common in Castille, León and
Portugal in the late 11th, early 12th century: Martín
Pérez de Tordesillas, ancestor of the Meneses family;
Count Martinus, father of Count Osorio Martínez, dec.
Lobregal 1164; Martim Moniz, in the Ribadouro Family;
Martim Moniz, in the Vasconcellos family. So, chances
of a purely Portuguese ancestry are quite large.

Happy New Year!

fa

--- Peter Stewart <p_m_stewart@msn.com> wrote:

"Francisco Antonio Doria"
franciscoantoniodoria@yahoo.com.br> wrote in
message

news:20041231115259.24266.qmail@web30907.mail.mud.yahoo.com...

My source is:

F. Carlos das Neves, _Santo Antonio de Lisboa, o
Grande Thaumaturgo de Portugal_, 2 vols., Livraria
Catholica Portuense, Porto, 1898/99.

Second volume deals extensively with the Saint's
family.

The first generations in the family are:

1. Martim ``Bulhão'' [?] deduced from his son's
patronymic. Son:

2. Vicente Martins ``Bulhão'' [?]. Son:

3. Martim ``Bulhão'' m. Teresa Paes Taveira, d. of
Paio Soares ``Romeu.''

Is just the existence #1 with the forename Martim
deduced, or also that he
too must have been surnamed 'Bulhão'?

Does your source discuss the alleged Bouillon
ancestry that was put about by
Franciscans in the 15th century?

Peter Stewart







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