In 2002 there was a long discussion about the genealogy
of a certain Beauchamp, along with assorted Bertha Braoses
and a St. Valerie or two. Some topic headings included "Marmion".
I tried following at the time but my head ended up spinning.
There apparently was a resolution, but I can't find it in the
archives. Chris Phillips and Doug Thompson clearly seemd to
have it, but I sure don't.
So I'm, unfortunately, asking again. What I am interested in is
in the ahnentafel below, taken from Leo van de Pas's web site,
the line that is, not necessarily the details.
I "guess" that it is what was said ... but I assure you its only a
guess. I am particularly interested in the Beauchamp/Braose question,
but if you disagree on Mortimer, let me know too.
Doug McDonald
1 William de Beauchamp of Elmley
Abt 1215 - 7 Jan 1268
2 Walter de Beauchamp of Elmley
- Abt 1235-1236
3 Joane Mortimer
4 William de Beauchamp
- Bef 1212
5 Bertha de Braose
6 Roger de Mortimer Lord of Wigmore
Est 1150 - 1215
7 Milisent Ferrers
8 William de Beauchamp
- 1170
9 NN
10 William de Braose Lord of Brecknock
Abt 1150 - 9 Aug 1211
11 Matilda or Maud de St.Valérie
Est 1150 - 1210
12 Hugh de Mortimer
Est 1100 - 1188
13 NN
20 William de Braose 3rd Lord of Bramber, Sheriff of
Hereford
Est 1100 - Abt 1192
21 Bertha of Hereford
22 Bernard IV de St.Valéry
- 1190
23 Maud
24 Ralph de Mortemer Seigneur de Saint Victor-en-Caux
Est 1040 -
25 Melisende
40 Philip de Braose 2nd Lord of Bramber
Abt 1070 - Abt 1131-1139
41 Ainor de Totness
Abt 1084 -
42 Miles FitzWalter de Gloucester 1st Earl of Hereford
Est 1100 - 24 Dec 1143
43 Sibyl de Neufmarché
Est 1093 - After 24 Dec 1143
44 Renaud II de St.Valéry
- 1166
45 NN
Beauchamp and Braose and Valerie and the Berthas
Moderator: MOD_nyhetsgrupper
-
Chris Phillips
Re: Beauchamp and Braose and Valerie and the Berthas
Doug McDonald wrote:
Yes, I think that's correct, at least as far as the placement of Bertha
within the Beauchamp and Braose families goes.
One thing that's puzzled me in the past, but I'm afraid I've never followed
up, is that CP ix 273 says "In 1212 he [Roger de Mortimer, d. 1214]
proffered 3,000 marks for the marrriage of the heir of Walter de Beauchamp,
to whom he married his daughter Joan". This isn't quite right, if he married
her to Walter, who was the heir of _William_ de Beauchamp. The references
given are "Ann. Mon. (Rolls Ser.), vol. iv, p. 400; Rot. Lit. Claus., vol.
i, p. 168."
Actually, the Rolls Series volume is available on the Gallica website, and
says (from the Oseney annals):
"MCCXII ... Rogerus de Mortuo Mari finem fecit pro Waltero de Bello Campo et
terris ejus pro iii. m.marcis, et maritavit ei filiam suam".
So that agrees with the pedigree above (and contradicts CP), but a footnote
calls her Johanna, and refers to her death noted under 1225. And that annal
(p. 418) records the death of "Johanna de Mortuo Mari uxor Willelmi de Bello
Campo", which only adds to the confusion.
Maybe things would be clearer from the Close Roll.
One other discrepancy with the above - CP calls Roger de Mortimer's wife
Isabel, not Millicent, de Ferrieres.
Chris Phillips
1 William de Beauchamp of Elmley
Abt 1215 - 7 Jan 1268
2 Walter de Beauchamp of Elmley
- Abt 1235-1236
3 Joane Mortimer
4 William de Beauchamp
- Bef 1212
5 Bertha de Braose
6 Roger de Mortimer Lord of Wigmore
Est 1150 - 1215
7 Milisent Ferrers
8 William de Beauchamp
- 1170
9 NN
10 William de Braose Lord of Brecknock
Abt 1150 - 9 Aug 1211
11 Matilda or Maud de St.Valérie
Est 1150 - 1210
12 Hugh de Mortimer
Est 1100 - 1188
13 NN
[snip]
Yes, I think that's correct, at least as far as the placement of Bertha
within the Beauchamp and Braose families goes.
One thing that's puzzled me in the past, but I'm afraid I've never followed
up, is that CP ix 273 says "In 1212 he [Roger de Mortimer, d. 1214]
proffered 3,000 marks for the marrriage of the heir of Walter de Beauchamp,
to whom he married his daughter Joan". This isn't quite right, if he married
her to Walter, who was the heir of _William_ de Beauchamp. The references
given are "Ann. Mon. (Rolls Ser.), vol. iv, p. 400; Rot. Lit. Claus., vol.
i, p. 168."
Actually, the Rolls Series volume is available on the Gallica website, and
says (from the Oseney annals):
"MCCXII ... Rogerus de Mortuo Mari finem fecit pro Waltero de Bello Campo et
terris ejus pro iii. m.marcis, et maritavit ei filiam suam".
So that agrees with the pedigree above (and contradicts CP), but a footnote
calls her Johanna, and refers to her death noted under 1225. And that annal
(p. 418) records the death of "Johanna de Mortuo Mari uxor Willelmi de Bello
Campo", which only adds to the confusion.
Maybe things would be clearer from the Close Roll.
One other discrepancy with the above - CP calls Roger de Mortimer's wife
Isabel, not Millicent, de Ferrieres.
Chris Phillips
-
Doug Thompson
Re: Beauchamp and Braose and Valerie and the Berthas
Doug
Leo's site seems to agree with what I believe about the Braose-Beauchamp
question.
It was a complicated discussion at the time, but this appears to be the most
likely conclusions to be drawn from the evidence.
Regards
Doug Thompson
--------------
History and Genealogy of the Braose Family
http://freespace.virgin.net/doug.thomps ... index1.htm (Genealogy)
http://freespace.virgin.net/doug.thomps ... /stage.htm (History)
Leo's site seems to agree with what I believe about the Braose-Beauchamp
question.
It was a complicated discussion at the time, but this appears to be the most
likely conclusions to be drawn from the evidence.
Regards
Doug Thompson
--------------
History and Genealogy of the Braose Family
http://freespace.virgin.net/doug.thomps ... index1.htm (Genealogy)
http://freespace.virgin.net/doug.thomps ... /stage.htm (History)
-
Cristopher Nash
Re: Beauchamp and Braose and Valerie and the Berthas
I really hate to be such a bore but can we have a quick reminder as
to why '2' Walter de Beauchamp (d. ca. 1235-36) isn't given here as
s. of William who d. 1197? I think the puzzle about this for me is
enhanced by the apparent death of '4' William de Beauchamp's dying
('Bef 1212') before the birth ('Abt 1215') of his suggested
grandfather....
Cheers - & happy hols!
Cris
Chris Phillips wrote -
--
to why '2' Walter de Beauchamp (d. ca. 1235-36) isn't given here as
s. of William who d. 1197? I think the puzzle about this for me is
enhanced by the apparent death of '4' William de Beauchamp's dying
('Bef 1212') before the birth ('Abt 1215') of his suggested
grandfather....
Cheers - & happy hols!
Cris
Chris Phillips wrote -
Doug McDonald wrote:
1 William de Beauchamp of Elmley
Abt 1215 - 7 Jan 1268
2 Walter de Beauchamp of Elmley
- Abt 1235-1236
3 Joane Mortimer
4 William de Beauchamp
- Bef 1212
5 Bertha de Braose
6 Roger de Mortimer Lord of Wigmore
Est 1150 - 1215
7 Milisent Ferrers
8 William de Beauchamp
- 1170
9 NN
10 William de Braose Lord of Brecknock
Abt 1150 - 9 Aug 1211
11 Matilda or Maud de St.ValÈrie
Est 1150 - 1210
12 Hugh de Mortimer
Est 1100 - 1188
13 NN
[snip]
Yes, I think that's correct, at least as far as the placement of Bertha
within the Beauchamp and Braose families goes.
--
-
Doug McDonald
Re: Beauchamp and Braose and Valerie and the Berthas
Cristopher Nash wrote:
Some dates were wrong in my file. I now have #4 d 1197,
rather than the earlier ambiguous though correct 1212
#1 is the grandSON of #4, not his grandFATHER. This is
an ahnentafel.
Doug McDonald
I really hate to be such a bore but can we have a quick reminder as to
why '2' Walter de Beauchamp (d. ca. 1235-36) isn't given here as s. of
William who d. 1197? I think the puzzle about this for me is enhanced
by the apparent death of '4' William de Beauchamp's dying ('Bef 1212')
before the birth ('Abt 1215') of his suggested grandfather....
Cheers - & happy hols!
Cris
Doug McDonald wrote:
1 William de Beauchamp of Elmley
Abt 1215 - 7 Jan 1268
2 Walter de Beauchamp of Elmley
- Abt 1235-1236
3 Joane Mortimer
4 William de Beauchamp
- Bef 1212
5 Bertha de Braose
6 Roger de Mortimer Lord of Wigmore
Est 1150 - 1215
7 Milisent Ferrers
8 William de Beauchamp
- 1170
9 NN
10 William de Braose Lord of Brecknock
Abt 1150 - 9 Aug 1211
11 Matilda or Maud de St.ValÈrie
Est 1150 - 1210
12 Hugh de Mortimer
Est 1100 - 1188
13 NN
Some dates were wrong in my file. I now have #4 d 1197,
rather than the earlier ambiguous though correct 1212
#1 is the grandSON of #4, not his grandFATHER. This is
an ahnentafel.
Doug McDonald
-
Cristopher Nash
Re: Beauchamp and Braose and Valerie and the Berthas
Oops - of course, Doug! Holiday spirit(s) got into me. Cheers!
Cris
--
Cris
Cristopher Nash wrote:
I really hate to be such a bore but can we have a quick reminder as
to why '2' Walter de Beauchamp (d. ca. 1235-36) isn't given here as
s. of William who d. 1197? I think the puzzle about this for me is
enhanced by the apparent death of '4' William de Beauchamp's dying
('Bef 1212') before the birth ('Abt 1215') of his suggested
grandfather....
Cheers - & happy hols!
Cris
Doug McDonald wrote:
1 William de Beauchamp of Elmley
Abt 1215 - 7 Jan 1268
2 Walter de Beauchamp of Elmley
- Abt 1235-1236
3 Joane Mortimer
4 William de Beauchamp
- Bef 1212
5 Bertha de Braose
6 Roger de Mortimer Lord of Wigmore
Est 1150 - 1215
7 Milisent Ferrers
8 William de Beauchamp
- 1170
9 NN
10 William de Braose Lord of Brecknock
Abt 1150 - 9 Aug 1211
11 Matilda or Maud de St.ValÈrie
Est 1150 - 1210
12 Hugh de Mortimer
Est 1100 - 1188
13 NN
Some dates were wrong in my file. I now have #4 d 1197,
rather than the earlier ambiguous though correct 1212
#1 is the grandSON of #4, not his grandFATHER. This is
an ahnentafel.
Doug McDonald
--